How many people think that bushco will push SO far that the tide

[salin]

Poll question: How many people think that bushco will push SO far that the tide

will turn against them? How many think that in their smug arrogance and addiction to raw power that they (both admin and congress - especially Tom DeLay's house) will push so far that the back lash will impact the party (at the national level) as a whole?

Any prediction on the issue or combination of issues that they will push TOO far that will create a turning tide?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Darlin', there WILL be a backlash.

These guys have nothing in the way of impulse control. I have been around long enough to know that people like that always go "a bridge too far". Then they fall, with a resounding splat.

It will only be a matter of time, and in these guys cases, I don't think it will be a long time from now.

[salin]

5. Not at the pace and degree of arrogance they are going...

have to agree that they are on a course of massive self-destruction. I just pray that the destruction to us all, that they leave in their wake, is reparable - and without too much pain on most citizens.

[AndyTiedye]

19. It Is Not Themselves They are Destroying

They are running the country into the ground,
but it's the people on the bottom who are getting hurt and killed.

The regime and everyone attached to it has such good Teflon®
that nothing can possibly ever stick to them. They own the news
they own the voting machines, and they own the government. They
can do a Watergate every day and get away with it. In fact, that's
about what they've been doing the past four years.

[salin]

2. Just for fun - an oldie but goodie John Dean article

on "Predicting Presidential Scandals" http://writ.news.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=/dean/20020719.html

Although I personally think that it will be worse than a presidentiall scandal - there is a sense of absolute power mongering that, to me, suggests that it will be bigger than what Dean suggests in 2002 - because it will be tied to a series of actions that will be tied directly to the whole GOP in DC - not just one or two figures that will be publically excised and thus allowing the movement to continue without missing a beat...

[laheina]

8. I hope that when the backlash comes about

that it is the whole party that is held responsible and not just the ring leaders. Because taking the head off of the hydra won't stop the madness.

[blondeatlast]

23. That is one incredibly smart, and unfortunately for the RadRight,

very BITTER man.

Everyone should read "Worse Than Watergate."

[salin]

26. I think the book was very powerful

indeed it may be time to buy several new copies to put into circulation (give to friends, and ask them to pass it on after they have read it... focusing on folks who are still trying to view this crew as misguided but not necessarily malevolent.)

[blondeatlast]

28. It shouldn't be too long before it goes into paperback,

I'll try to remember to watch for that (I have access to a major/publishing/distribution database).

The best of the anti-Bush books I read, and very readable.

[ailsagirl]

3. Historians agree that this is the WORST president in

the history of this country. And the most dangerous.

Their greed and corruption will slap them in the face one day-- I hope it's
soon. I think they're already feeling it.
=======================================================
The link to this story is broken but I originally found
it here:

http://rwor.org/a/1261/bush%20murderous%20thug%20tour.htm

The Murderous Thug Tour or History's Most Reviled President

Revolutionary Worker #1261, December 12, 2004, posted at rwor.org

George Bush II recently took what some of his advisers called a "friendship tour" to Canada and Latin America. Everywhere he went, he was greeted by protests large and small, and by determined and creative ways in which the people showed their hatred for this global gangster.


Chile

Before Bush even set foot in Chile, major protests broke out in Santiago, Chile's capital--against the Iraq war, Bush, and the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit which was held there. For four days Santiago was the site of protests and battles between police and youth.

The protests started on November 17, before APEC even began and two days before Bush arrived. An unauthorized march was met with 4,000 police, who began attacking protesters with clubs, tear gas, and water cannons before they could reach the summit site. The youth regrouped, pulled out banners from their bags, blocked traffic, built flaming barricades, and defended themselves with rocks and other debris.

On November 21, the last day of the summit,a mass march of 70,000 people, according to the Chilean Social Forum, was met with more police attacks and arrests. But this time, some 800 masked and hooded youth were said to be more prepared for street fighting. Arrests came to a total of almost 700 over the five days of protests.


Colombia

When Bush came to spend less than four hours in Colombia, a country the U.S. wants to uphold as a "model" for exploitation and plunder, 15,000 U.S. and Colombian troops, and a mini-arsenal of military equipment were deployed to protect Bush. Snipers were deployed on the roof of the airport, and helicopters and combat planes flew over the airport, which was closed for the day. All this was supposedly because the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) were accused of having issued a death threat on Bush--a charge that the government was later forced to admit they had flat-out invented. Despite this, protests were held in the capital of Bogotá, and in Medellín, Cali, and Cartagena, where Bush touched down before being whisked off to a tiny island in the Caribbean. Signs read "Yankees out of Iraq," "Bush out of Colombia." In Bogotá and Cartagena protesters burned U.S. flags.


Canada

In what Indymedia dubbed the "Murderous Thug Tour `04", Bush couldn't even visit the small towns of Fredericton and Charlottetown (population 46,000 and 15,000, respectively) without being greeted by protests. In Halifax, Nova Scotia, Bush expected to be warmly greeted as he "thanked" the city for having sheltered 33,000 stranded air travelers (mostly American) in the days after 9/11. Instead hewas greeted by as many as 8,000 protesters (a record for this city of just over 100,000 people.) One group of 800 or so protesters tried Bush for crimes against humanity and led "Bush" away in handcuffs.

In the Canadian capital of Ottawa, 15,000 to 20,000 people marched and burned an effigy of Bush. Groups ranged from Lawyers Against War (who filed torture charges against Bush for the abuse of prisoners at the U.S. Guantánamo Bay facility) to Bellydancers Against Bush.

In Toronto, protesters dumped red paint at a busy intersection in the middle of rush hour. Protests were also held in Vancouver and Calgary--as many as 25 separate actions broke out across the country.

[Razorback_Democrat]

4. Of course they will!

They already have, the public just doesn't know it yet!

When social security is out of money

tax breaks for insurance for employers disappear

the war in Iraq becomes a civil war between Shiites and Sunni and we run hi tailing it out of there (Iraq) but get bogged down even more

it's all shaping up and the tide always goes the other direction.

just how much damage it does before it goes back out

[salin]

6. lived in DC in the mid eighties... folks talked of pendulems

and swinging back. Sounded good - but for my patience... just couldn't see any counter swing to the Reagan juggernaut. Even Clinton's win - only seemed to slow the tide - especially after the GOP congressional takeover in '94.

However, now - as these players are in place and pushing policies that are so extreme - and likely to cause so much direct pain to so many people... I see that it is not public perception/sentiment that is the swing... it is moving policies to far (and too fast) that creates revulsion and thus a ripe counter swing. I just didn't realize that swings take a long time horizen rather than an election cycle or too.

I have to agree - imo, it is inevitable... the questions are - how soon and how much damage is left in the wake.

[AndyTiedye]

16. The Pendulum CAN ALWAYS Swing Further to the Right

[salin]

17. I sense that they are about on the outer limit

in that direction. Have heard too many traditional repubs with concerns to believe that if the march goes much further right, be it talibanestic social conttol - or overt major erosion of social safety nets - to believe that those folks will keep being supportive of the GOP. Some left in this past election - others were teetering. Much further to the right - and these folks go inactive - or go for protest votes.

[AndyTiedye]

21. They Are Well Past the Outer Limit Already

They crossed the Rubicon some time ago.

[ElectroPrincess]

7. Yes, their propaganda machine can only work for so long

I hope and pray they won't be able to become authoritarian in time to stem the tide.

Within the next four years our dear Toto will pull back the curtain to reveal that the * Administration is nothing more than a gaggle of corrupt dirty old corporate men (and some women).

Depending on the damage to the economy, it could be a monumental backlash against unchecked corporate power.

[EQPlayer]

9. Modified version of Teach your children

Not sure where else to post, so here goes (sung to the tune of the classic Crosby, Stills, and Nash song):

You, who are on the right,
Must not tax the rich, or require sacrifice,
And so, create a debt,
Fow which Bush will be long remembered.

Tax your children well,
The Chinese are waiting, for us to repay.
And leave them all your debt,
The one we should bear, we all know why.

Don't you ever ask Bush why, he won't tell you, he just lies,
So just look at him and cry and know he screwed you.

And you, of tender years,
When you grow up, will one day ask why.
And the answer, the answer we give you,
Won't be more than an excuse.

Tax your children well,
The Chinese are waiting, for us to repay.
And leave them all your debt,
The one we should bear, we all know why.

Don't you ever ask Bush why, he won't tell you, he just lies,
So just look at him and cry and know he screwed you.

My apologies to CSN, but somehow I think they would approve.

[salin]

10. Excellently done! Kudos!

May I copy this down and save for appropriate moments (will attribute to you via your DU nic)?

[EQPlayer]

11. Tax your children

Go for it! If you know someone who can sing and record it, we can send it out! LOL

[salin]

13. There are many talented DU musicians

just a matter of them of seeing this thread and taking the initiative... it can be done...

[EQPlayer]

14. Not enough posts

I don't have enough posts to start my own thread -- feel free to copy to a new thread if you want.

Thanks!

[salin]

15. Will do so in the lounge...

by the way welcome to DU! :hi:

[EQPlayer]

18. Thanks!

For the welcome and the repost!

[blondeatlast]

24. Nice work! Welcome to DU!

To you: :toast:

And to your great new lyrics: :toast:

[RafterMan]

12. There will be no backlash

or turning of the tide or anything if no Dem stands up and seizes the moment.

Nixon was a brilliant politician who understood the 1960s and reshaped it to his own and his party's advantage. Who in the current Democratic party is capable of doing that?

[m berst]

20. would have happened by now

For every outrageous thing that the administration does, they do two things that make it more difficult to stop them. I think if the backlash hasn't happened by now, it may never happen.

I could be wrong - and I hope that I am - but I think we are headed for catastrophe, and the idea that people will wake up when things get bad enough can be a dangerous illusion. Germany was a heap of smoking ruins and the people still had yet to wake up to the Nazis, and 30 years after the war was over you could hear true believers in any working class pub in the country. So the capacity for denial is almost infinite.

The party leadership is counseling working within the system, or compromising with the opposition. Here, we see people engaged bickering over dozens of issues, and regardless of which side you take on them, both sides of each argument have one thing in common - denial of the massive scope of the crisis. The "get over it" ideas are gaining in momentum.

I hope that I am wrong, but I sense the air leaking out of the room. The "realists" have won out over what they call the "fringe" or the "sky is falling" people, and we had better hope that they are right.

People who are comfortable have a sense that they can weather the coming storm, and jeer at those who express alarm. For those who are already at risk, it is clear that they don't count to the people in power and the comfortable ones who control the party and the discussion. Over the next few months, more and more will be put at risk, but that will happen gradually and will be invisible to most people.

So I think it is every person for themselves now, and we will have to hope that the casualties are not too severe.

If the events of the last few months have not convinced people that this is not politics as usual, what ever will? And clearly, with all of the time and energy being spent arguing for and against the DLC and the like, people think that it is politics as usual.

I think something very, very strange is going on. Of course, I felt that back in 1999 when I first heard Bush and saw the coalescence of the Dominionist movement with corporate power and reactionary politics. It looked like a recipe for unimaginable tyranny to me. I tried to warn other Democrats then that this was something new and different and very dangerous, and that if we approached it as politics as usual we would not be able to stop them.

I said that all bets were off and anything could happen. "Such as what?" they asked. I said think stolen elections, think the wholesale dismantling of the government, think war in the Middle east, think massive new police powers on some pretext, think the Constitution at risk. After all, that is what this gang of people who are running the country said they wanted to do.

"That can't happen, what are you smoking?" So I asked, if I am right about any of this, would you then consider what I am saying? "Of course, if any of that did happen I would be right there with you on all of this."

Well, it all did happen, and then some.

Then, during the primaries, people said "we can talk about all of this stuff after the election. First, we need to accomplish mission one! Oust Bush!" No one wanted to hear then that something strange was going on and that Bush could not be ousted by politics as usual. So I asked "if they steal another election, can we then talk about the extraordinary threat they represent?" And of course the answer was that we would all be hitting the street in that case, so don't worry, they won't get away with it again.

And now, we have a lot of people, including most of the leadership, advocating that we continue to try the same tactics and strategy we used in 2000 and 2004, with the only exception being that we become less alarmist, less "radical" and "left wing" and move further to the right.

[salin]

22. I agree with much of what you write

however I would add that the speed with which the GOPinPower are now pushing things - which is likely to accelerate - and the extreme direct pain they have caused to a growing number of people will accelerate exponentially... that will wake many people up.

I think that one of the hardest things to overcome - is a huge public case of cognitive dissonance... that is, what we believe about ourselves and our government (that we/it is benevolent... if at times to big and intrusive) makes it hard for many to read what is being done as radical (and I agree with you - an attempt to dismantle whole chunks of our system) and rather than confront that life long held views of self, society and our government/system... folks want to read it as "politics" as usual... and use the fact that we bounced out of the damage of the Reagan BUsh years as evidence that we will bounce out of the Bush Cheney years as well.

The point is that to recognize the extent of the damage - and the inherent malevolence towards citizens of our country that lies behind their actions - is very hard for many in the public to accept... and thus they hold onto the politics as usual excuse which allows a temprorary quelling of the cognitive dissonance (the mental state when new facts/news realities is in direct conflict with what is known). However as the realities of the bushco policies hit closer and closer to home for more and more people... it will become increasingly difficult to calm the cognitive dissonance in this way.

For example, there are already articles about the next term in the HHS dept... that there will "have to be" severe cuts in MEdicare and other programs due to the huge deficits... that will hit a lot of people directly and indirectly (by hitting relatives who suddenly need family members to kick in for survival.) As this happens - it will be increasingly hard to have mass amnesia about all of those hugely covered in the media "Tax Cuts".

Repeat this cycle on a hundred different fronts.

There WILL be a backlash... and I believe - now enabled - that the GOPinPower is pushing so hard that the backlash will not just be against the administration but against the GOP... and hopefully against their overall messages. The questions, in my mind, is how long such a serious backlash (the kind that leaves the GOP out of power for an extended period of time) will take to grow and eventually swell to proportions that can not electorally be scammed (imagine the Ukraine scenario - when the public sentiment is SO vastly different than the election results that it simply can not be dismissed)... and the second question is will the damage be repairable?

[Cats Against Frist]

30. I'm with you

they scare the holy crap out of me, and it seems that most people who are ultra-alarmed have a fairly broad background in politics, philosophy, critical theory, or something else that lets them access the higher level, where they can see how fucked up everything is. The Suskind "reality-based" quote is probably the most chilling thing I've read, in the public discourse, in my lifetime. And anyone can see how they back this up, by peddling false binaries and logical fallacies as "fact," through their hate radio barons. And something else that most of the GOP constituency doesn't know: that these things have been cooked up by a very elitist, right-wing intellectual contingent who literally see their constituency as something TO BE MANIPULATED.

I think you have one thing exactly backwards, however, and that is that I honestly believe that their plan is NOT to dismantle government. Their policies show this -- empire, corpo-fascism, militarism -- just because they're cutting taxes and privatizing a few things here and there does not mean that they are either in favor of dismantling government or against using the power of a large central government to expand their power (as you mentioned -- they keep making it harder to defeat them, every time they win). Their overtures to "limited government," almost strictly favor the rich and corporations, while we get our Bill of Rights gutted, our library books spied on and what tax money they do collect subsidizes pork to keep them in power, corporate welfare, military corporate adventure, etc.

And the Dominionists don't want a smaller government, at all. They want to rule a big authoritarian government -- which I believe they already are -- and you're right -- I think the line between the corpo-fascists, the dominionists, and the Republican party apparatus is blurred -- through the money of the religious scum-peddlers and corporations such as Raytheon. If they are not in it genuinely, both the neocons and corpo-fascists, at least, tacitly, give their approval to the tightening of conservative cultural and religious supremacism, as it keeps the "workers" in order -- particularly if that new cultural supremacism embodies a pro-corporate, docile consumer/worker whose identity depends on seeing their "earthly riches" as a sign of God's love.

At any rate -- the lunatics are running the asylum -- and these extremists are usurping the power structure that the left and the moderate right helped to build.

[bunkerbuster1]

32. Ronnie Raygun is revered now, no?

He was a horrible man and a terrible president, but he had enough blind followers to make himself seem decent to many Democrats. You didn't have people protesting en masse during his funeral (as they bloody well should have!)

I suspect that's how Chimpy will play out in the end. His party may suffer some setbacks in the 2006 midterms (if we do everything right) but his legacy will survive. Americans will remember him as a guy who spoke plainly and got tough on terra.

We'll be marginalized on this particular person and just have to grit our teeth and try to fight on the issues against the next monster the military industrial complex puts up as Preznit.

[Steely_Dan]

37. Excellent Post!

Well written and right on the mark.

This IS NOT politics as usual. We must take the clear and present danger that faces our country as a new message to the American people.

-P

[blondeatlast]

25. They sure as hell can't blame the Democrats anymore!

That's OUR job.

[blondeatlast]

27. We need to start blaming W.rong enablers in Congress, not the pResident.

Let's stifle the "Bush basher" charges early, and frame the debate for the Congressional races.

Name the names, too; we need to make people aware in our water-cooler chats because they aren't going to hear it on the "news."

[salin]

29. Water cooler discussions and news...

Actually most of what we know comes from the "news" - though stories come out in dribs and drabs and in disparate places and are rarely tied together or amplified incessently in thew news.

But for those who pay attention - the news can be very informative.

Thus - the point of the watercooler discussions are very, very important... those discussions can cue people to pay attention to certain stories when they finally break out - and can lead to an increasing awareness of what is happening. The more one gives cues as to unfolding stories or likely future stories - the more the participants of those discussions become informed news consumers who start seeing the bigger picture - as that news that does dribble out confirms what you have been pointing out in discussions... as that confirmation (the omg, what the *&*& are they doing?!) process goes on - those folks are more receptive to more information and - if hooked by the concern for the reality - they begin to have additional "water cooler" discussions and repeat the process...

[Harlan James]

31. The Litmus Test Will Be Social Security

If Bush is allowed to add $2 trillion to the national debt while at the same time destroying Social Security, then there will be no "changing of the tide" or anything else for that matter. Not only will it be the end of govt as we've always known it, but also proof positive that the majority of this nation's citizens have become too debased to effectively support and comprehend what it means to live in a democracy.

[salin]

33. odd thing... in modern times have we seen

a country with a well developed economy and strong middle class be turned into a country with wealth disparaties ala many Central and south American countries?

THere has to be a term for this... "Third Wolrdization?"

And retailers are just now getting it ... that sales decline when more and more people have less "spare" money to spend (on non essentials such as extra presents for the Holidays?)

[Harlan James]

35. Good Point

I've often wondered why the right hasn't been more critical of Wal*Mart. After all, aren't they they main conduit for the communist made goods currently flooding into this country?

[John_H]

34. Anyone who thinks there is going to be a visible shift is fooling herself

The GOP are radical, evil, and cynical---but they ain't stupid. The people in charge of the rethugs know they can take care of every interest group, every donor, every voter block without so much as blipping the radar of the lazy media. Drip. Drip. Drip. A shift in agency policy here, a cancelled program or study there. A tax payback buried in unrelated legislation. Since the "visivble" stuff will scream "moderate moderate moderate" 99% percent of america won't have a clue their country is crumbling beneath their feet.

At lest not as long as the 0-3 losers continue to run the strategic and message operations of the Democratic Party.

[salin]

36. backlash is different than a shift left

the point, I think, is that they are pushing so hard and so fast, an on so many fronts... that the pace towards "crumbling beneath the feet" is escalating.... and that will cause the back lash.

In the interrim - I don't see strong movements within the party to create a counterpull/shift... but I do see very hopeful signs of organizing on the left (think tanks, media, etc.) that indicate the beginning of platforms to counter the right. However these efforts are only loosely affiliated with the party - and sadly some are the current whipping boy and/or child to be told to be kept silent in the corner... by some vocal in the party. That is a sad development.