Do you really believe there's going to be a 2008 presidential election?

[Cyrano]

Many people spent the past four years wondering if the BushCo fascists would hold a 2004 election. Well, something was held, but, given the tons of circumstantial evidence, anyone who thinks that this election wasn't stolen is at best naive, and at worst, a fool.

What makes anyone believe we'll even go through the motions of an election in 2008 (or even 2006, for that matter).

Given that the Bush mob, the corrupt GOP congress, and the maniac judges appointed mostly by Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, what's to stop them from doing whatever they want to do?

Our democracy is on the edge of a cliff and about to go over. And bitching about the fundies, the neocons, the red state Bush voter idiots, the right wing media, or any other villains that we see isn't going to change a thing.

What we need to do is stop the maniacs who control all the levers of power. How do we do that? I don't have a clue.

[leftofthedial]

1. there wasn't one in 2000 or in 2004

and the 2002 midterms were also a joke

what's likely to change by 2008?

[clydefrand]

2. Who DOES? I'm getting tired to writing emails to reporters.

And the other things I'd like to do are illegal.

[GreenArrow]

3. that's what they'll "call" it

.

[cali]

4. I am sick of being told I'm

naive or a fool because I believe bushco won. Gasp. That's right. I think he got more votes than Kerry. Yes, I believe there was fraud and suppression and I support the Conyers hearings and election reform, but I don't believe that the 3.5 million vote differential can be largely accounted for by fraud, and I have yet to see evidence that supports this.

[Trailrider1951]

5. I got yer evidence right here....

Speaks for itself.

[Cyrano]

6. Okay, so you've got confidence in whatever you think our coutry still is.

Good luck. No one can prove a stolen election.

It's the overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence (and not just in Ohio and Florida) that makes many believe we've been had...again.

People have been executed on less evidence than is available on this election.

[cali]

7. No I don't have much confidence

which is one of the reasons that I think bushco won. I'm not impressed by the American electorate. There's evidence of fraud and vote suppression, but as you pointed out that's not proof.

[Cyrano]

9. Okay, I can't prove it to you. But what do you think about 2006 & 2008?

Want to go into those election years the same way we're coming out of this one?

How about we have BushCo swear (cross their heart and hope to die) that all votes will be counted, there won't be any intimidation of minorities, voters won't be disenfranchised, and that provisional ballots won't be thrown into the dumpster.

[cali]

12. Of course not

That's why I support election reform to the hilt. I haven't suggested that the system isn't deeply flawed and doesn't need to be fixed.

[ohioan]

13. There's also a big difference between voter suppression and fraud

The vast majority of the problems with this election occurred through voter suppression, not fraud. If voter suppression is done well enough, fraud is not necessary - if you can suppress the opposition vote turnout effectively, you can win through an honest count. My belief is that, in this election, voter suppression was rampant and may or may not have made the difference in Bush's victory - we'll never know if enough votes were suppressed to make the difference.

Voter suppression is a long-term, nuanced and complicated effort that takes much more difficult to root out and address and takes considerably more time. It involves years of creating an atmosphere in which you control the levers of the voting process (stacking state offices - particularly the top state elections officers' seats - with partisans, gradually taking control of state legislatures, filling the federal district and circuit courts with eager ideologues, etc.), combined with clever and effective voter intimidation tactics. As long as we obsess over after-the-fact voter fraud - which occurred, but not nearly in the volume that some seem to believe - while ignoring the more serious, complex and pervasive problem of voter suppression, we're missing the big picture and will never catch up.

[BrklynLiberal]

8. I would not bet my life on it happening freely and openly...n/t

[slay]

10. The road we are on leads to BushCo ALLOWING us to get attacked again

Yes I said it, and yes I hope I'm wrong. I put nothing past these people though. How else are they going to stay in power? They chose Kerik to run homeland security because he is the kind of guy that gets involved in scandalous activities. If you like corruption, money, and power, you've got a home with BushCo. These are people who will do whatever it takes. They worship at the alter of money and power. They have already purged the CIA of those who oppose the BushCo agenda. Unless they plan on just giving up in 4 years, they will make sure we are attacked, and then they will rule with an iron fist, for our own protection of course. We are in deep, deep trouble.

[texpatriot2004]

11. Nope, not if we don't fix the one in 2004, there won't be. n/t

[bklyncowgirl]

14. They'll have an election, they'll just know the results in advance nt.

[Doctor_J]

15. Why wouldn't we?

Why rob a bank when you can own one? Why cancel an election when you can fix one?