Dean's CNN appearance tonight: The Storm and The Fury

[LoneStarDem]

Having read the thread, the accusations, the counter-accusation, and the rest, I have come to the following conclusions:
(Note: I didn't actually see the appearance, this is just based on the responses)

Some people felt the appearance show a lack of control.
Some people felt the appearance showed an appropriate level of intensity.
There was some back-biting and counter-back-biting over these responses, mostly based on previous bad blood between some of the camps.
But...
I think the majority of the people who were responding were not doing so out of malice for the Dean camp, but out of concern for how the appearance would be taken by the not-so-political voters out in TV land. It is possible to agree with what he said and how he said it and still be worried by how it will be taken at large. If the rhetoric was heated ("looked crazy", "looked drunk", etc), well, that is unfortunate for the cause of civility, but it certainly isn't outside the realm of discourse thats been used to describe appearances by other candidates; this one just happens to be condensed and heated by the immediacy of the situation.

Comments? Questions? Deathbed Confessionals?
Pax.

[jenk]

1. I felt he was a little out of control

and didn't look presidential at all. It was a little embarrassing.

but clearly trippi's objective here was to make a 3rd place finish look and feel like a 1st place finish.

[Clark Can WIN]

80. It was incredibly tacky to say "We're going to win" and then proceed to

rattle off each of his opponents HOME STATES INCLUDING the guy who was already known to be bowing out of the race.

Also, sorry, he looked PSYCHO and that thing is going to play over and over from here till Howard heads back for Vermont. The wheels have come off the wagon and the doctor is no longer in the building. Yikes.

When I was in 9th grade our typing teacher had a breakdown in class, started stabbing herself in the hand with a paper clip wrapped around a pencil while sitting under her desk. That experience was only slightly more disturbing than Deans "victory" speech.

Maybe his wife can get to him and knock him down with some tranquilizers for a while, for everyones sake. He did not help the image of Democrats in America tonight.

[LizW]

2. Comment

There is absolutely no excuse for some of the comments made about Dean's CNN appearance tonight. I believe that some of the comments were most definitely made out of malice for the Dean camp. My ignore list grew exponentially tonight, as there are people here who have proven to have nothing to add to the discourse but spite and vitriol.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guaranteed]

6. It all doesn't matter, though.

It's over for us, and Dean. I didn't even see what Dean said, but if he said some nasty stuff, I'm GLAD. I'm hoping he ripped into some people. That's my plan. Ever thus to shirkers.

[LoneStarDem]

20. No doubt

No doubt some were, as happens whenever a candidate says most anything of note. I know of some Clark supporters who have it out for Dean, Dean supporters who have it out for Clark, Kerry supporters...etc. I would just add two things. One, that we not allow such incidents to be blown out of preportion with regard to the rest of the respective candidates supporters. As a Clark supporter, I have an almost primal distaste for certain *alleged* Dean supporters (one must add that caveat, given the Internet and all) who seem to haunt Clark threads, sowing strife and conflict. Many a time it has led me to question why I even come here. But I still come here, despite it all. The world is distasteful, and more often than not full of assholes. But we are not promised comfort in this life, just the opportunity, if taken, to participate and try and make things better. See the good, fight (but don't become) the bad, and let the idiotic slide. Two, that just because stupid people agree with something doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. Idiots might chortle with self-satisfaction after tonights performance, but don't let that blind you to an opportunity for improvement. Nothing pissed me off more than people trying to spin Clark's debate semi-gaffe on the software/India thing into some kind of nefarious plan to ship everyone's job overseas, but at the same time I wished he had not said it. Not because what he actually said was wrong, but because it opened an easy opportunity for attack.

[hlthe2b]

74. LizW, I may be wrong, but these were the comments coming off the media

I saw Dean's speech several times on CNBC (the only cable news I get) and just thought he was working extra hard to rally the "troops," perhaps sensing major frustration among his new converts to politics. But, the talking heads were mercilous. My guess is that may have been the case on several other "news" shows. I imagine the tone and depth of vitriol from these talking heads, just had a lot of people analyzing the whole thing. Clearly, the media has NOT been on Dean's side in recent weeks/months.

Personally, I understand why Dean took the tack that he did. His exhuberance certainly didn't bother me and I didn't think he was out of control as some of the press alledged. However, I would have liked him to spend just a few minutes congatulating Kerry and Edwards and was disappointed that he didn't. (If he did do that, I missed it. I did see most of his speech three times, but it is possible. My attention span's not what it used to be... LOL). Would I hold that lapse against him? No. In the passion of the moment, sometimes these things are unintentionally forgotten.

But regardless, please try not to draw too many assumptions right now. Dean's not my absolute top pick right now, but I'd proudly support him if he gains the nomination. And this thing is far from over. Onward!

[bearfartinthewoods]

84. he did say he called them

[jsw_81]

75. I have been supporting Dean for six months

But his concession "speech" was absolutely outrageous and not at all presidential. I may switch my vote to Kerry as a result.

[bearfartinthewoods]

94. excuse me but when a man appears to be a bit tipsy

or elated to a degree inappropriate to the situation, how would you suggest people descibe his behavior?

[TLM]

3. No matter what Dean did... the same folks would attack.

I've given up caring what the folks who bash Dean no matter what he says or does, think.


Dean took a hit tonight, no doubt about it, and he went out there and gave a great rousing speech. His voice is clearly hurting from so many cold weather speaking events, but that's Iowa.

[bicentennial_baby]

4. I was shocked

by Dean tonight, I'll admit it. I fear that it won't play well in the next few days, I'll admit that too. I wish Governor Dean and his supporters no ill will. See y'all in NH and may the best man win! :toast:

[maggrwaggr]

46. Olberman showed a clip of it and it wasn't good

The look on Olberman's face, and his attitude about it ...... well, it was pretty dour. And Olberman's one of the good guys.

The clip was kind of painful to watch.

For the record, I'm a fervent Dean supporter. I fear this clip will be used against him in days to come.

[BeatleBoot]

5. Dean did fine!

He came across like a regular guy.

I thought he was very gracious and really upbeat for his troops.

He's a great guy!

[BurtWorm]

7. Thank you, Beatleboot.

And congratulations to you and your guy.

[BeatleBoot]

21. I really do like the Dean-ster

He's a stand up guy.

BurtWorm,

I am totally puzzled by all of this candidate bashing amongst ourselves. Its crazy.

Check out any of my posts. I've made a great effort to be level headed.

Kerry could lose this thing in 14 days. There's no tellin'.

The only thing I'm certain of is that I can't put up with Bush and his policies anymore.

Rock on'

[BurtWorm]

34. I can understand criticism of candidates.

Criticism can be constructive. But bashing? Attacking a candidate for irrelevancies? Picking up on media whore talking points and grinding them ito the ground? I don't get it either.

[tishaLA]

112. Beetle, yours is the correct attitude

I wish more people here would adhere to the same principles.

Congrats to Kerry for the great victory last night. He's a good guy and we wish him well.

[KittyWampus]

8. My Sympathy Goes Out To Dean. His Handlers Failed Him BIG TIME!

[AP]

9. He acted the way he intended to act. Angry. But he meant it.

the quasi-sarcastic line about being compelled to be polite was meant to emphasize that the screaming was meant to be impolite.

it's amazing to me. Iowa voted off teh island the two candidates who did the nastiest advertising and Dean thinks that more anger is going to revive his campaign.

[BootinUp]

11. Thats Deans style

this is how he grabbed the early lead, and it must be kind of natural for him.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

19. IMO - he wasn't angry.Think he was just trying to "pump up" his supporters

and sound uplifting....

[AP]

27. He was trying to be "impolite" -- that's why he punctuated the anger

by saying, essentially, now we'll be polite for a moment.

In the debates I got the impression that he was injecting a feigned anger into every response.

It's so clear to me that this speech tonight was inspired by a conversation with the strategists saying, let's go with what got us this far: anger

[BeyondGeography]

10. It was deadly

If his goal was to give a speech that the RNC could re-package as an attack ad, he succeeded.

Rambling and incoherent. He was ROARING at the top of his lungs. I've never seen anything like it. The speech was much worse than the result.

Here's what he should have done: Talk about WHY his candidacy is so valuable (and it is). Talk about these spineless Dems, and how they caved on the Bush tax cut, caved on Iraq, got snookered on NCLB, and haven't mounted anything resembling an effective opposition to Bush in three years.

Dean and Co. need to re-focus, and stop obsessing about process crap like the strength of his organization and money. It's meaningless when you don't get the votes. There are real ideas in the Dean camp; he needs to get back to them.

[lefty_mcduff]

18. The bragging about money seemed

a little out of place in his speech. I thought Dean's speech was fine - but then I tend to like orators who are firebrands - except for the bragging about how much money they had raised. That seemed a little nyah, nyah to me. At the end of the day, I wish all the dem candidates well - they're the only chances we have to get rid of that twit pResident Evil.

[shance]

52. Good points.

n/t

[Mz Pip]

12. Kind of reminded me

of a football coach at half time.

This is something that has concerned me about Dean for a long time. It IS a question of perceptions. One person may perceive it a passion another perceives it as out of control. Since perceptions seem to play such a big part in politics I would like a candidate that doesn't do things that are perceived so negatively.

Heaven knows I have tried not to bash Dean, but these are legitimate concerns. He has a reputation for being hot headed and that wouldn't have mattered much if it never manifested itself during the campaign but it has and now he and his supporters will have to deal with the fallout.

MzPip
:dem:

[jburton]

13. I didn't like his speech

But some of the criticism was obnoxious, like accusing Dean of being drunk, insane, etc.

And whoever says "Yelling in Spanish" regarding his "si se puede" has no clue what that phrase means. It's the rally cry of agricultural laborers during the Cesar Chavez era. It's the mantra of an entire social justice movement.

It's not "Yelling in Spanish"

[KittyWampus]

23. Thank You For Informing Us. I Fear Many Americans Won't Know That

[shance]

61. God help us Dems if we are scared of conviction*****

If we continue to play it safe and shun those that have conviction of the Heart and spirit, then we are doomed.

Theres some good learning for all of us, including a very brave, committed Dean who has fought and worked like hell to make the difference he continues to make.

Hes bringing passion back into the party, like Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy and Harry Truman,FDR, and Ill even include Teddy Roosevelt. I equate him with these leaders because I believe he along with those supporting his cause, is making that significant of an impact.

Our party has been through so much heartbreak, betrayal and tragedy.

Im not sure we have ever conciously reconciled this. Its vital that we do. Its imperitive we return to whats really important in life, all forms of life. Its time we learn to respect this planet that we live on and not arrogantly take its natural resources for granted. These things are what will always bring us back to the most powerful aspects of this party.

Regardless where Governor Dean places, this time around or in the future. He, along with others, are laying foundation to truly return to the great party we have been. We, if we continue to connect with other Americans, will take our country back.

I find it interesting how media pundits have attempted to shame both Dean and Dems in general for actually exuding anger.....isnt that amazing?

What day is it today? Martin Luther King Day....

Does anybody know where my old friend Martin, John, Bobby, and Paul Wellstone has gone?

We have a reason to be angry friends.

Its an anger that can be channeled to positive change and healing if we are committed to allowing the process to occur. Thats the direction we have to go if we are to save this planet we live on.

[psychopomp]

117. Yes! What you said!

Dr. Dean has made a difference and changed the party. Who knows whether he has brought the party to higher ground? The party's advance has been largely because of his campaign's effort to drag everybody along or be left behind.

What I can say is he has is put some backbone in a lot of people who had given up hope for American politics.

[Kathleen04]

63. That was me.

See post #62.

Thanks for the background information on the saying, I had no idea.

[texasmom]

86. As a Clark supporter

I thought some of the criticism was obnoxious, too, and I was disappointed. He was obviously trying to rally his extremely hard-working supporters back from a very disappointing night. I've been on that end of disappointing nights, standing in rooms like that, and he was trying to help them, and those watching on tv, remember what they have accomplished and where they're going. It's probably a good thing that we're watching events with an eye to how the middle-of-the-road voters will view the candidates, but I don't think there's any reason to be obnoxious.

Thanks for explaining the Spanish phrase, also. That makes a lot of sense.

[tishaLA]

113. Yup. You're right

I didn't like the speech--but it wasn't directed at me, a Clark supporter, anyhow--but some of the criticism last night was borderline hysteria.

And a good note about the si se puede mantra. It's a big part of our desire for social justice; that some have forgotten it or chosen to disregard that is sad, indeed.

[Eric J in MN]

14. Dean encouraged his supporters to keep going. Did nothing wrong (nt)

nt

[mitchum]

15. His handlers failed him

I'm not a Dean supporter, but I know that he is not the crazy man he appeared to be tonight. He needed rest.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

16. Just watched the clip. He was passionate, spirited, upbeat, COHERENT.

What the heck were all the posters freaking out about? That he didn't sound like Cheney or Rumsfeld? Yikes. That's a GOOD thing!

I don't have TV. After reading all the posts saying that he was rediculous and just lost his chance at the presidency, I had to see for myself.

I'm not a Deanie. I thought he put energy and enthusiasm into what is usually a pro forma boring bit of 'who cares?' political coverage.

I enjoyed his energy. It seemed upbeat, honest and appealing to the average TV Nation voter who might otherwise find politics to be too boring to watch.

Dean is still in the game and strong.

Now I wanna see the Kerry clip since NPR stopped coverage just before he spoke...

[DoctorBombay]

17. He lost votes with that speech

I don't think there is one undecided voter out there that saw that speech and said "I'm sold, I'm for this guy". While he whipped his true believers into a frenzy, I believe it was counterproductive. I don't think it will help in the primary, and it CERTAINLY won't help him in the general election, provided he gets there.

To clarify: I'm not saying what he did was right or wrong, that's just my analysis on what I think will happen because of it.

[mike1963]

29. You have nailed it precisely. His performance, while certainly redolent

with passion, will be perceived (and take it to the bank, will be replayed ad nauseum in the media) as histrionic and weird by the bulk of the electorate. Whether it's fair or deserved isn't germane; the damage has done been done (sic).

Dr. Dean just lost all hope, sorry to say.
:-(

[GalleryGod]

81. Teddy White defined it via Hemingway: Grace Under Pressure.

Clearly,NOT!

The audience was NOT in front of him!
That was the CHOIR.
The audience was Out Here...takin' their "FIRST PEEK":wtf:

Quiet,,,Calm..and an Issues Laden Presentation would've been the right prescription last night.

Your Man in the Faculty Lounge:hangover: ,
Talkin' Nuttin' But Caucuses in Class Today,
G.G.:smoke:

[beaconess]

115. Exactly!

[aldian159]

76. Very good point.

I like the Dr. a lot, I just like Kerry a little more.

Dean is galvanizing our base while trying to expand it. Very admirable

Kerry is appealing to moderates by using core Dem issues. Also very admirable.

Dean's speech reminded me of the JJ dinner "You have the power!."

And for the last damn time, stop rolling your sleeves up every time you talk. You're running for office, not in a Ford plant stamping a fender on a F150. And it makes you kinda look like the Rock, only without the silk shirts.

[GalleryGod]

79. Karl & Karen Roll that Tape with the Sound Off!

Awful!

Like the "Angry Guy" only on steroids this time..what if he finishes say, a close-second to Clark next week?

MORE anger!? MORE sweating? MORE stream-of-conciousness-screaming?

Won't even need a microphone.:nopity:

[Tatiana]

22. He was exhausted.

And probably mystified. After all, he worked so hard for that Tom Harkin endorsement, and what good did it do him?

In so many ways, he's been the guy who stepped out when everyone else was afraid to. And this is his reward.

I dunno, I'm having sooo many mixed emotions and feelings regarding the outcome of his primary. I'm genuinely pleased that Kerry won. Wonderfully surprised that Edwards came in second. But it feels weird that Dean came in third.

[Maddy McCall]

24. Did he even say "Thank You" to the Iowans who voted for him?

That was what was most apalling to me. Rally the troops, fine, but at some point thank the people who VOTED for you.

[Ramsey]

31. Did you even watch it?

n/t

[Maddy McCall]

38. Yes, twice now, and NO, HE DIDN'T THANK IOWA CAUCUS GOERS

who voted for him. :-(

[GalleryGod]

82. I Did. It's Topic #1 in Class Today.

I've watched the Class Tape,repeatedly, even in Rove-style "Slow-Mo".

Not well done.

:smoke: G.G.

[Baclava]

25. It was nothing...what I saw

...was obviously more to pump up the room's supporters and a "show of force" or a "we have not yet begun to fight " sort of speech...

What's the big deal?

[GalleryGod]

83. A Million People Saw it. And it was their First Impression of Dean

:nopity:

Especially FOLLOWING EDWARDS Presidential Presentation!

GG:smoke:

[bearfartinthewoods]

111. that is staff responsibility

scheduling his speech was one thing they could control. they should have avoided the time period after edwards.

[TheDonkey]

26. I like Dean but he was out of control plain and simple.

He is by far the best at making stump speeches but what happened tonight was a trainwreck. He sreamed... screamed... screamed... and repeated everything 3x. It was unusual, uncalled for, ineffective, and sad.

Dean's use of anger many times is good, he starts off telling a story then wraps up with a angry zinger, but this speech he was yelling from start to finish.

Even Dean supporters must see that this was not his finest hour.

[fujiyama]

36. Gotta agree...

I myself was honestly worried that he was going to give himself a heart attack when he started yelling like that. Dean can be impassioned and can bring a lot of energy to the table. That's great, but this speech was way over the top.

I honestly can't see that speech helping him with independents, especially in the general election. He gave the IMPRESSION that he was manic (though I hope most of us can agree that Dean is a very intelligent and capable cvandidate).

I myself think this caucus simply showed that Iowans preferred a less mean spirited, negative campaign. John Edwards showed himself to be the opposite, running a cleaner, friendlier campaign. Kerry, too had changed course and ran a better campaign in recent weeks.

Dean had a lot of potential to give a great, rousing speech. I like the fact that he mentioned his success compared to a year ago (coming from an * to frontrunner), but then he just blew it, bragging about the $ and how he would beat all his opponents' home states, all the while shouting extremely wildly.

I've heard Dean give impassioned, yet sensible speeches. Tonight wasn'y one of those.

[creativelcro]

37. Well, I wonder how'd you feel after not sleeping for several nights

in a row

[Yupster]

45. Edwards, Kerry and Gephardt

probably didn't get a whole lot more sleep than Dean, but they appeared under control.

My guess is you will see the Bush team talking up Dean a lot more in the next few weeks.

[beaconess]

103. If he gets that punchy when he's tired

we definitely don't want his finger on the button.

[Yupster]

40. Agree Donkey

I admit I'm happier with Kerrey and Edwards ahead, but my wife and I looked at each other and said "what is going on?" It was a trainwreck, especially when it came right beween Edwards and Kerrey's speeches where they said what they wanted to do. He just came off to us as someone out of controll.

[One Taste]

28. Scary

would be the word I would use to describe it.:(

[BurtWorm]

50. A lot of people seem to be scared of passion.

Especially Democrats, for some reason. :shrug:

[Leilani]

70. Passion is terrific

But it has to be contained.

Remember, people are voting for a President, arguably the most powerful person in the world. And people want to feel safe & secure with that person.

Dean was over the top tonite, but the campaign has just begun. Dean has money, organization, loads of supporters, & ther's lots of primaries left.

[Ramsey]

30. Have some of you ever been to a political rally?

Honestly, I have no idea what the furor about that speech is all about. I have been to a lot of similar speeches. The candidate gets up and rallies the supporters, who at this point must be a bit disappointed. But it's the candidates job to re-energize them and to thank them. That's exactly what Dean did.

Two very minor points. He's was obviously very hoarse and thus probably had to shout to get out any decent sound in a noisy room. He was also speaking too closely into a mic that was turned up too loud. In a very noisy room. He was upbeat, smiling and fired up. I saw nothing wrong with that at all.

Obviously some people want to demonize Dean, and his supporters, and will nit at every pick to do so. But let's get real. That was campaign type rallying cry to a room full of supporters. It was not embarrassing, it was not scary. It was just fine.

[theboss]

98. I've been to dozens of rallies

And I have never seen a speech like that from anyone other than college-age radicals.

[osaMABUSh]

32. Dean appeared a little 'nutsy' and I've supported him since June

His yelling is a little scary since his voice gets deeper. I felt he appeared a little wacko. It was a great speech if just in the room to pump up his supporters but on CNN average Joe would think he lost it.

[goodhue]

33. Dean was fine.

A little bombastic as always. And the shouting of various states kind of ended with a bizarre guttaral scream. Otherwise pretty much his usual self. I've never liked it, but that's just me.

[Clark Can WIN]

35. I thought he looked bizzare

like the wheels were coming off. That was my honest impression. I think he needs to take a day and chill.

[gauguin57]

41. I'm upset that Dean spoke ...

while Edwards was still speaking. Campaigns are supposed to coordinate who's addressing the faithful at any one time; it's just rude to jump up and start speaking when someone else (especially someone who's done better than YOU) is still making his speech. Those are the unwritten rules ... politicians have been playing by them for a zillion years. Sorry, guys. Just rude.

My friends and I were just slack-jawed when he started screaming; I don't even know what to say about that. I was afraid he was gonna have an aneurysm (and Dr. Steinberg wasn't even there to have given him medical aid, was she? -- yeah, yeah, I know ... spare the flames, and focus your energy toward defeating Chimpya in the fall!).

[Sugarbleus]

43. Was he drunk or in melt down?

My hubby had never watched him before and when he saw his "speech" he freaked out! Said 'good god, is the guy wasted or what?' Also said he would never vote for a guy as out of control as that. I'm sorry, I really would have been interested to see what this candidate could do--if my man lost and Dean won. I do not mean any disrespect; it's just an observation we had while sitting in front of telly tonight. I wasn't all that impressed with Kerry either--though he is also a nice enough fellow. It seemed Kennedy got more kudos than he should have...seems off kilter somehow. Anyway, best of luck to all and let the Democrats rule!!

[Seldona]

39. Still don't know what to make of it.

My first impression was that he indeed did sound like something out the old school wwf.

But when I listened to his message, I got fired up which I believe is what he meant to do in the first place.

I will vote for whomever takes the nomination, but Dean matched how I feel and what I believe. Or hope anyway.

And yes dammit, with this administration in office, I do not feel screaming is not at all inappropriate. I like his passion.

Just wonder how it will play with John Q Public.

Edited for spelling.

[beaconess]

82% of Iowa's John Q Public said no to Dean

[underseasurveyor]

42. Would you rather see a glum Howard?

No I don't think so. This has been a tense ride (so far) for everyone.
Give the guy a break. He's entitled to release some nervous energy and feelings of.....
choose one or more

relief
frustration
anger
disappointment
anticipation
joy
sorrow
determination

Plus I'm sure the guys GOT to be exhausted. People do have a tendency to get a little "punchy" when they're tired.

And I don't give a crap (and I don't believe Howard does either) what any repuke has to say about his, quote, behavior tonight. Howard's done well so far fending off attack after attack and that's bound to wear on a person too. He's human, entitled to all the benefits and faults of being human. I say cut him some slack and rather than chastise the guy for it, applaud him instead. Make it a positive.
0.02

[Duder]

44. Some like a fighter...

Some prefer the more common Rose Garden variety candidate.

[Kahuna]

96. It's not impossible to be a fighter and dignified at the same time...

watch Clark, Edwards and Kerry.

[Tatiana]

47. I keep cringing...

You can just feel the media's glee as they keep playing the clip of Dean's speech over and over and over again.

Grrrrrrrr.....

[gauguin57]

49. One thing about that speech ...

Dean gave a nice list of states ... most of which Chimpy probably STILL can't identify on a map of the U.S.!

[tinrobot]

53. Yup... this will be everywhere.

He's already on the front page of Drudge with the headline "Dean Goes Nuts"

Not that I think very highly of Drudge, but the tone of that speech is just perfect fodder for an RNC attack ad, not to mention a few from Lieberman. It's going to be everywhere. He sounded more like Hulk Hogan than the next leader of the free world.

I've been to a half dozen Dean meetups and has donated to his campaign. I like what Dean stands for, but I'm also a realist. This is not going to play well at all.

Grrrr is right.

[beaconess]

48. Did anyone notice the bizarre striptease Dean did?

Tonight was not one of Dean's finest moments.

[Maddy McCall]

55. Yes, and the "hang loose" hand sign and the wrist handshake...

His attempts to be "cool" fall flat. Voters don't want "cool" or some cheap imitation--they want substance.

[rumguy]

66. Striptease? WTF? I missed the video of his speech, but

what the hell do you mean by striptease????

I can't believe what I'm hearing about this speech of his...

[Kahuna]

90. He enthusiastically ripped off his jacket and rolled up his...

sleeves (indicating, I'm rolling up my sleeves again). Then he tossed one of those orange "perfect storm" skullies into the crowd.

[LoZoccolo]

51. The "Dean went nuts" meme just doesn't hold up.

If you'd like to see, watch the video yourself:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index2&cid=981

OK so he gets all hyper doing a build up about the states. A few seconds later he's smiling and laughing.

People who push this "he went all crazy" line, lose credibility, with me and other people here. Really I'd like to start talking about the candidates and why I should vote for whoever. I know what my eyes see, and if other people wanna convince me he went into some hysterical uncontrollable fit when he was looking like he was having a jolly good time...well you've got work to do.

I'm not here to convince anyone who's been trying to feed us this shark sandwich about him looking like a lunatic. Really this post is for everyone else - does this attack on Dean really actually look credible to you?

[Maddy McCall]

54. That clip is only the first few minutes of the speech.

[LoZoccolo]

57. It's also the part...

...that Drudge mentions on his site. I'm not sure if it's the "unnatural state" that he brings up, but it at least appears as if it could be. If that's the best he can do, it ain't much.

[tinrobot]

58. I saw it...

The problem is that Dean's opponents can cut it up and make it into whatever they want. All that tone of voice buys Dean is a half dozen free attack ads from his opponents.

I'm a Dean supporter, and I gotta say it wasn't pretty.

[LoZoccolo]

60. Yeah so then take that and...

...cut up Dean's opponents with it. That's what I like about Dean - he won't cringe at stuff, he'd be good at going "look" and show you the real deal, and damage the credibility of his opponents in the process.

If we let the Republicans keep gaining ground without calling them on it each and every time, we'll end up being another Republican party. Push back and do some damage.

[bearfartinthewoods]

114. think of a montage of stills from that clip

watch it in slo mo.

[Kahuna]

91. It's not the whole clip. It doesn't include the "striptease."

nt

[Tim_in_HK]

56. My take

I just saw him as trying to make the best out of a disappointing situation. I don't think it can be denied there was veiled disappointment in that showing. He was slightly akward and didn't have a clear direction in what he was saying (not saying this as a putdown; that is just how I saw it).

But he didn't look 'crazy' or 'psycho' or anything else. Ridiculous to say stuff like that.

He's by no means out of this. But it is a slight bruise on the idea of what is supposed to be one of his key strengths: strong organization and grassroots support.

[Old and In the Way]

59. Was not his best moment to an undecided voter.

But I think he's got the fire in his belly. He could well come back strong and I think this moment will pass. If I was a canvasser for Howard, I'd have been inspired. That was from the heart and for the troops.

Sadly, the media will play this ad nauseum.

[On the Road]

118. A Lot of Things Can Pass

being called a madman is not one of them. That what concerns me. As well as the effect it is likely to have on the other campaigns.

If Dean gets killed for his style, I am very afraid of a safe, loyal-oposition-type campaign. That will NOT win the nomination.

[Kathleen04]

62. I feel..

a little guilty for making comments on the first thread when I had intended to not get involved in any post-IA back and forth. While I didn't like the speech, I didn't intend any malice toward Dean or his supporters. So to the Dean camp..I'm sorry I got involved in the pile-on criticism of Dean's speech thread.

[i_am_not_john_galt]

64. I'm sure that already

someone has made a clip with Dean morphing into Adolph which will at least cancel out the moveon bush/hitler commercial tempest.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

65. Drudge Has a 13 Second Audio Clip on His Site

It's where his voice gets all crackly as he recites states, and it ends on his "yeaAAHHhhh" scream/gurgle.

I think the entire clip is somewhat cringeworthy, although perhaps not as bad as some are making it out to be.

Drudge did manage to pick out the ABSOLUTE WORST snippet of it, however, and it makes Dean sound absolutely terrible.

DTH

[Ramsey]

101. Why do we care what Drudge posts?

Honestly, the sources we are seeing here and on other threads are the worst of the right wing propaganda sites. Why do we quote these sources? They have no credibility. Their whole purpose in being is to make our guys look bad. Maybe Dean gave them some fuel, but does it matter? They'd have pieced together some unrelated, out-of-context clips and quotes anyway.

And they'll do the same to Clark/Kerry/Edwards. At which time I for one will not be starting threads about it or posting their links.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

109. Because Drudge Has a Large Readership, and Because It's a Very Rough Clip

Listen to it, it is HARSH. The fact is, that's going to be a RNC hit piece if Dean is our nominee. And that needs to be taken into consideration.

DTH

[isbister]

67. I understood what he was trying to do

but I'm afraid the media might just jump all over this... it falls right into their angry Democrat crap and they'll probably use it to justify what they've been saying about him.

[i_am_not_john_galt]

68. Shows lack of media savvy

Since the media will pick 15 seconds to play over and over, you gotta make sure you give 'em the right 15 seconds. Dean keeps feeding them bites that, to the average shmoe (me?) just seem over the top angry. I'm not angry (I know, that's because I just don't get it). Almost everyone in my VERY working class neighborhood lives better than the middle and upper-middle classes did when I was growing up just a few decades ago. My neighbors (mostly blue collar, probably 60% hispanic) are not angry. They are tired of waiting 3 hours in the emergency room, want a reasonable fix for health insurance, want to be friends again with the rest of the world. I think Edwards is on to something.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

69. Drudge Distilled It to 13 Seconds

Listen to it. It will make your skin crawl.

DTH

[oasis]

71. "A man's gotta know his limitations"

[BootinUp]

89. I love that line :)

So true.

[grasswire]

72. if Edwards and Kerry...

..won Iowa because Iowans went toward less bombastic rhetoric and toward "nice" candidates, then why the hell did Dean's handlers allow him to go out there and scare all the womenfolk of America by growling and snarling?

It was a political wreck. He confirmed the narrative the media has been writing for him. It was counterintuitive.

I was so impressed with his statements on Sunday, when he was impassioned and bright and clear. I really liked what I saw then.

[jsw_81]

73. Hate to say it, but I don't think Dean is ready for prime time

Although I have been a strong Dean supporter up until today, I have to say that his fiery concession speech in Iowa was absolutely inappropriate and even disturbing. A serious presidential candidate should never act that way under any circumstances. Dean should have been humbled by his humiliating defeat, and he should have said something along the lines of "We fell short, but the campaign continues." Instead, we got screaming and shouting and immature red-faced anger. I really couldn't believe my eyes or ears.

While Dean still may go on to win the nomination, I am seriously considering switching my vote to John Kerry. The senator from Massachusetts is far from perfect, but if Dean should win the nomination and have another temper tantrum like the one we saw in Iowa, we'll lose in a landslide. I don't think I want to take that risk. There's far too much at stake this election year.

[Hep]

93. Hate to say it?

Dean supporter the whole time?

How quickly we jump off the bandwagon.

[HazMat]

77. My undecided mom remarked

that Dean "sounds like one of those wrestler guys".

She's in her mid 50's and a lifelong Dem, but doesn't follow politics that closely.

It's these non-activist voters coming into the process during the final weeks that turned the polls upside down in Kerry and Edwards favor more than anything else, IMO.

[suigeneris]

78. Not to worry...

...Dean is not my first choice, but alarmed by some of the posts above I tuned in for a replay of his post-caucus speech. I don't see what the big problem is. He was a little over the top but it was good natured and clearly meant to buck up the troops from what has to be a dissappointment.

It strikes me as sheer spin to suggest he looked like he lost it.

IMNSHO

[Michael Harrington]

85. This whole thing...

...is already well on it's way to being this year's version of the Wellstone Memorial. All the machinery is in place and the talking heads are falling right into line, even the ostensibly objective ones. It's a grisly thing to witness.

We keep hearing all about how the Bush crew is licking their chops to face Dean. This all has sort of a reverse B'Rer Rabbit sound to me. I think they're likely nervous about facing his energetic nationwide support and deep organization. Granted, they have some avenues to attack him (and their utter lack of scruple or even basic human decency will make that easy for them), but I simply don't buy that they are anxious to take him on. At least not as much as they claim.

Kerry is a good man, a good Senator and I've always admired him, but he was effectively in the Witness Protection program for most of this war until Dean stuck his neck out and found that there was support for the position. I hope all of these predictions of Kerry-as-hero-who-outflanks-Bush come true, but this is an organization that successfully painted a wheelchair bound man with no legs and one arm as somehow cozy with terrorists. Keep that in mind.

[HPLeft]

87. It's all of a piece

Dean's is a candidacy built on intensity and emotion, and tonight he responded in like fashion. I personally have never believed that either of these has anything to do with being President - but they do appeal to a segment of the electorate. I can imagine that there were people watching who were energized by that performance. But he lost a lot of the pundits and intelligencia last night, at least for now. In comparision, Dick Gephardt, whose national political career may have ended (although I can see him as a Secretary of Labor in a Democratic Administration), was poised yet emotional. He gave a great concession speech that almost allowed me to forgive him for his Rose Garden appearance with Dubya during the IWR.

I'm sure that Dean must have felt terrible about the outcome tonight. It was a shocking turn of events - even for those of us who supported other candidates. Hell, I never expected Kerry to come back in Iowa. The 2004 Iowa Caucuses has to go down as one of the most amazing turnarounds in American political history.

[robcon]

88. The least presidential speech I've heard from a candidate

I think a picture says a thousand words...

[Duder]

100. I also think that a picture says a thousand words...

Bully for Dean!

[Hep]

92. It was perfect. He shows confidence and good will

There wasn't a bit of anger or vitriol in his speech. He congratulated Kerry and Edwards on their run through Iowa, and he stayed positive the whole time.

People will hold anything against him and "wonder" how it will be perceived by the public. He did fine.

[blockhead]

95. he looked like an idiot to me

eom

[theboss]

97. I am not anti-Dean at all

I like Dean and have been defending him to a lot of people who think he is a little whacky. I probably won't vote for him in the primary, but I think he is making a valuable contribution to the campaign.

And then he made that speech. All I can say is . . . Dude!

It was one of the weirdest displays I've ever seen by a candidate in any race. "Weird" is not where a candidate wants to be. I am sure it played great with his supporters in the hall, but anyone who believed he was a little whacky before last night is going to think he is certifiable after it. And that's a shame.

It's important to note that a few seconds can change a campaign (and a country) for good or bad. Kennedy won in '60 because Nixon said, "Fuck Makeup!!" Goldwater dropped "Extremisim in the defense of liberty is no vice" and scared 100 million Americans to death. Ford couldn't remember that Poland was behind the Iron Curtain. Reagan said "There you go again . . ." Dukakis got in that tank. And Buchanan attacked everyone who wasn't a white Christian in '92 at the Convention. I really do believe that Dean's performance is going to enter this list.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

99. If Dean does this in the debates....

WE WILL LOOSE B-I-G T-I-M-E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We will also loose those four southern senate seats too.
Governor Dean's behavior was unacceptable and a real turn-off for me.

[Slippery_Hammer]

102. Anybody notice that

When Dean gives a speech they change the sound balance to isolate more on the speakers microphone and cut out most of the crowd noise?

As the campaign has been going along his voice has been getting very hoarse and his tone of voice sounds more and more harsh.

I noticed this after I saw him in person last saturday. His voice was very raspy form all the talking he has been doing on the campaign trail. Then when I saw what they broadcast on TV of It, the balance seemed all out of whack. It was most noticeable right when Tom Harkin started talking. It was like they filtered out all the crowd noise all the sudden.

Anyone think they could be doing this on purpose to make him sound worse?

[beaconess]

106. No . . .

They aren't cutting off the crowd noise or blowing up Dean's voice.

At all of these events - regardless of the candidate - the candidate's staff feeds the podium mike into a "multbox," a contraption with lots of inputs into which the press can plug their cameras and tape recorders and record the sound directly. That way, they get a "clean" feed of the speaker's voice without it being drowned out by ambient sound such as crowd noises. Otherwise, they would not get good sound and would have to place all of their mikes on the podium and end up crowding the speaker with a microphone bouquet that looks so unattractive (not to mention dozens of additional wires stringing from the press riser to the stage, tripping people up and causing all sorts of problems.)

No plot. Just a common practice among all of the campaigns.

[Red_Storm]

104. on MSNBC.........

one of the panelists (forget which one) said that after watching Dean last night he would not want to see him inside an emergency room, let alone the White House........

[Snivi Yllom]

105. not that bad

He was pumped up and when the media plays it over and over its worse than the actual speech.

Kerry and Edwards must be loving CNN and MSNBC for doing a hatchet job on Dean for them.

[beaconess]

107. That's like saying the Paris Hilton video was a hatchet job

When someone voluntarily performs on camera, they can't then whine that someone is showing the video. It is what it is.

MSNBC and CNN could show video of Edwards and Kerry over and over and over again and they STILL wouldn't look ridiculous because they didn't do anything ridiculous on tape.

It's time for you guys to stop blaming everybody but Dean for problems that Dean causes for himself.

[Jerseycoa]

110. Dean did the hatchet job on himself

He handed it to them. Why wouldn't they pick it up?

[Killarney]

108. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it

He's passionate. He gets the crowd going. I like that.

But obviously many people are turned-off by it. That can't be ignored. It is a factor.

[TacticalPeek]

116. I liked it . . . BUT.

I liked it, thought he was in the 'zone'. It was good oratory. The subject matter was non-controversial: we'll win here, we'll keep running there, etc.

BUT . . . I'm sure the way it came across to many viewers was too 'hot' for tv. And I'm also sure that the media and R's will find it easy to play it as more Mad Dean Disease.

So I don't fault him for what he said, or for how he said it, but rather for not having a clear way to win with suchlike, or not having a way to keep things like this from getting in the way of winning.

:shrug: