Kerry embraces anti-choice candidates?

[question everything]

From Newsweek http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6700571/site/newsweek/

he week after Thanksgiving, dozens of Democratic Party loyalists gathered at AFL-CIO headquarters for a closed-door confab on the election. John Kerry dropped by to thank members of the liberal 527 coalition America Votes. When Ellen Malcolm, president of the pro-choice political network EMILY's List, asked about the future direction of the party, Kerry tackled one of the Democrats' core tenets: abortion rights. He told the group they needed new ways to make people understand they didn't like abortion. Democrats also needed to welcome more pro-life candidates into the party, he said. "There was a gasp in the room," says Nancy Keenan, the new president of NARAL Pro-Choice America.

=====

There are several posts here about staying in the party. This IS the litmus test. If the leaders of the party will abandon the pro-choice stand, this will be then end of this party. We, the loyal grass roots, will start a new party. It may be small, it may take a generation to be a force, but I will never vote for an anti-choice candidate and will not be part of such a party.

[mark414]

1. christ nobody gets it

democrats are perceived as weak and wishy washy for EXACTLY THAT REASON MR KERRY

we need to EMBRACE what we stand for and stand up and be fucking proud about it, not try to siphon votes off the opponent by acting JUST LIKE THEM

goddammit excuse my language but now i know why i call myself a liberal instead of a democrat

idiots

[question everything]

3. Thank you. My sentiments exactly. n/t

[Maat]

19. I so agree!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

61. No they don't as your post shows

Pro-life is a coopted term. You can be pro-life AND pro-choice, as Kerry and a number of liberal Catholics have demonstrated.

[Cheswick2.0]

65. no Pro-life is anti-choice and it always has been

You are either pro-life or pro-choice. If you don't like abortion but think that abortion should be legal then you are pro-choice.

[Turn CO Blue]

70. That's me

I don't "like" abortion (who does?), but I think it should remain legal - and will march and protest to defend the reproductive rights of women and for women to maintain control over their own bodies.

It's ridiculous how we've let the RWNJ's choose the terminology in this debate.



Edited: typo

[NewYorkerfromMass]

72. It's semantics used to "frame" the debate

If I were up there I'd say I was pro-life of the mother AND the child.
Note also how the "real" pro-lifers call us pro-abortion, baby killers, etc....
We cannot let them continue to frame the debate this way.

[janx]

92. No it isn't! It's capitulation. To cave in and use the

term is capitulation.

Face it.

It's one thing to welcome people of faith to the Democratic party. It's quite another to use the term "pro-life," because those people, by definition, want to allow the government to make medical and religious decisions over the people.

I will not accept that, and frankly, I'm disgusted that Kerry said such a thing. THIS MUST STOP.

[mark414]

97. i was talking in general, not issue specific

it's not just on abortion where democrats are trying to center themselves...it's on fucking everything

NO democrat should've voted for the medicare reform bill
NO democrat should've voted for no child left behind
NO democrat should've voted for bush's tax cuts
etc. etc. etc.


on every single issue, there are NO democrats because no one is acting like one, they're too afraid to be demonized on cable news

[lojasmo]

136. Howard Dean gets it.

He's saying almost the opposite, but that we need to affirm that we are the party that want's to keep abortions safe and RARE. There are lots of people out there who are going to be able to get behind a platform of keeping abortions rare....hell that's what nearly EVERYBODY wants.

[nightperson]

137. This is the type of article Kerry should be pushing:

"the world’s population is still growing by 76 million per year - the equivalent of adding a new U.S. population every four years."

Thank you Howard Dean!

[mark414]

144. that's cause dean's the man

you're right...i find it absolutely appalling that anyone could actually believe that liberals LOVE to kill little babies...of course not, but it's certainly better than the coat hanger alternative...but i'm sure with you i'm preaching to the choir

god i hope he's DNC chair...please please please

[MercutioATC]

2. This is a great example of what I've been saying all along.

Kerry seems (to me) to be willing to compromise core principles to gain broader support, which is what I think is wrong with our party. Until that changes, we're not going anywhere.

[question everything]

6. Right. And even if we will lose voters by sticking to our principles

at least we will be able to look ourselves in the mirror.

I don't have problem compromising on some issues, but not on the core ones. I am still certain that had pregnancy and abortion not the results of sexual intercourse, this would not have been such an inflaming issue. It is not as if the other side stands in line to adopt the children of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies.

I just posted a story about the need to take care of developmentally disabled adults http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2832259 and, of course, it is not as if the "pro-life" people give a damn about caring for them.

[Iris]

44. What no one seems to remember is how much of an economic blow

an unplanned pregnancy (or 2 or 3 or 4) can be for a woman and her family. Birth control was revolutinary because it allowed people to adequately care for the children they had. Abortion opponents think simply "making room at life's table" is enough of an answer to that, but anyone who is trying to raise kids today knows better. Making room at the table could very well mean taking food from the mouths of the children who are already here.

[Maat]

20. I so agree - with both of you!

And I was a social worker from '93 to 2000, and, no, the other side was not standing in line to adopt children - any children - other than perfect white newborns who had not been exposed to any substance in utero (which there weren't any in my world).

[ElectroPrincess]

49. You have that right ...

I'm so tired of seeing those "self-righteous" pro life bumper stickers on their vehicles. Yet not a hint of the senseless KILLING done in a war based upon lies. A prime - living, breathing example of all that defines "Hypocritical."

[mairceridwen]

4. Why? Why? WHY?

Do we need more pro-life people in to the party?

Fuck that.

What the democrats need to do is articulate a firm FIRM position on the constitutionality of reproductive rights through the issue of bodily integrity and autonomy. If anything they should use Catholics for Choice's arguments and rhetoric instead of NARAL or Planned Parenthood's...not that they are much different, but CFC might be a little less threatening (well, not to anti-catholic protestants, but what are you going to do with them?)


I am so sick of this. This should be a NON-issue. Abortion is NEVER going to go away. EVER. At least not with the direction this facist theocratic administration is taking it. Fuck all. I'm in women's studies because I wanted to help forward contemporary feminist issues. I didn't come here to fight battles already won.

[JI7]

5. this is crap, he is NOT saying to abandon abortion rights

he is prochoice and always has been and will continue to be. he DID make abortion rights a litmus test.

he is talking about reaching out to those who are not supportive of abortion rights here. he is NOT saying to abandon choice.

[mairceridwen]

9. but how...

do you reach out to anti-choice individuals without compromising your position? that was part of my point. I see what you are saying, but I still think there needs to be a firmer articulation of the issue AND reframing it in terms of "unwanted pregnancies," fixing the economy (which often leads to less abortions), and perhaps committing more resources to abortion alternatives like adoption or feeding the candy tree.

[JI7]

13. you teach them WHY we are prochoice

it's not because we "like abortion" as many anti choice type views being prochoice as. it's for many other reasons that those of us who are prochoice understand and that's what we have to show the anti choice people.

of course there will always be some who will never vote for us no matter what. but there are some who will. Dennis Kucinich was anti choice for a long time but he voted democratic. Harry Reid is anti choice but he votes democratic. and there could be many more like them.

[Us vs Them]

17. "You can be anti-choice, and I will still respect you.

However, if you enforce that upon a fellow citizen, I will refute you."

I think we will make great strides on this issue if we stress the individuality involved with such a difficult, personal decision.

[mairceridwen]

18. exactly

take control of the debate.

And make everyone read:

When Abortion Was a Crime: Women, Medicine, and Law in the United States, 1867-1973 by Leslie J. Reagan

and

Killing the Black Body: Race, Reproduction, and the Meaning of Liberty by Dorothy Roberts.


The Reagan one misses the mark on the issue of race, but is otherwise a good study.

[Old and In the Way]

25. Pro-choice is the only honest position.

In a perfect world, one could be pro-life. But it's not nearly a perfect world. Anti-abortion laws don't work. That's why Rove v. Wade came about. People will still have abortions, they will just be riskier by many orders of magnitude. Those that can travel and go where it is still legal, will. Those that don't have the $ will...and many will die as a result.

We lifted Prohibition because it didn't work. The War on Drugs doesn't work. Outlawing abortion won't work. You cannot legislate morality .....but you can run on it.

Pro-choice is not pro-love of abortions. It's being honest about a fact of life. And Democrats have married pro-choice to sex education and better healthcare services. Those programs had reduced the need of abortions. But abortions have gone up since Bush has been in office...so I conclude that Republicans are pro-abortion because they don't support the services needed to minimize the cause of abortions...unwanted prgnancies.

[mairceridwen]

28. one of the easiest places

to get an abortion is in Georgia.

oh wait, I should preface that by saying, "one of the easiest place to get an abortion is in Georgia's penal system. they offer prengant female criminals an abortion upon entering the state's correction facility."


OKAY DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THIS. A PROFESSOR TOLD ME AND I CAN'T FIND A QUICK REFERENCE. WILL PROVIDE MORE INFORMATION LATER.

But is it really that unbelievable?

[BurtWorm]

34. "abortions have gone up since Bush has been in office"

Why isn't this FACT better known, goddamn it!! :grr:

[sunnystarr]

148. How come? Did he plant little bushes? (nt)

[Stand and Fight]

106. Amen to that.

We need to not only frame the debate, but we need to turn it around on the the Republicans. Come at them and the people with the facts and much harm was done when abortion was illegal. Lots of wisdom in your words, and I am glad to have people like you hear, "Old and In the Way."

[DemBones DemBones]

115. Not so. Pro-life is an honest position if you are consistently pro-life,

opposing capital punishmen and war,as well as abortion and euthanasia, and if you realize that helping people avoid unplanned pregnancy through sex education and improved access to condoms is the way to decrease abortions, by simply eliminating much of the demand.

What kind of "choice" is abortion, really? It's been marketed for decades as a marvelous advance, but regular use of reliable contraceptives is a better choice.

Who whould choose to have a surgical procedure or take a heavy-duty drug like RU-486 if they could instead have been helped to choose contraception to avoid the entire problem of an inconvenient pregnancy ever happening?

[Old and In the Way]

118. You have a responsible pro-life position....

I think most people want to make an abortion an unnecessary option and that can only be done with education and access to healthcare. But even so, I cannot take away that last option to women who do not, will not, or cannot have a baby. That is their choice.

If the pro-life position is founded on divine religious conviction then they should never have an abortion.....but should also respect that judgement is not theirs to pass on others.

[genieroze]

127. These people are against sex, except for themselves.

Missionary position, no birth control, no premarital sex.
Except for this
http://www.geocities.com/arthursank/sexualmorality.html

[ohioan]

43. It's a bear being the voice of reason, isn't it?

[Cheswick2.0]

66. the know we don't "like abortion"...we don't have to convince them of that

that charge is one they use to get gutless people to feel they must explain themselves over and over.
When Rendell was running for Governor of Pa and he was asked about abortion he said "The democratic party is pro-choice". That's it, that is all that needs to be said. Appeasement arguments, explaining to people what they allready know perfectly well is a surefire way to look weak.

[janx]

94. Because it IS weak. n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

79. No, that's the point, you don't reach out to crazies!

These are people, both Rep and Dem so called "Pro-Lifers" who want to insert their religion into our Constitution.

There's a reason that we cherish the separation of Church and State. Get these nuts and their views out of government.

My religion urges me to BEHAVE pro-life 100% (no abortion/no execution) but it should NOT EVER dictate that I get my religious morals into politics where everyone may not choose to be a practicing Catholic.

Get "THE CHURCH" out of our government. The politicians need to grow a spine.

It's a decision between a woman and her doctor. End of story.

[mairceridwen]

96. yes. yes. yes.

There is this assumption that there is no common language between opposing positions.

There is. It's the language of liberalism and constitutional theory, we have to push that. It's going to be hard, but it's worth it and its important.

There are people who will NEVER see it that way...we need to keep them in the minority and out of power and provide people who are otherwise middle-of-the-road or really prochoice (but confused by the media and those controlling the discussion) with clear positions and comprehensive discussions.

[HeilChimp]

36. kerry caves again

>>>>
he is prochoice and always has been and will continue to be. he DID make abortion rights a litmus test.
he is talking about reaching out to those who are not supportive of abortion rights here. he is NOT saying to abandon choice.
<<<<

Yeah, right. This is John "I believe life begins at conception" Kerry we're talking about. Talk about abandoning a critical issue so you can pander to some far-right religion zealots in the stone age. Not only is he weak on choice, but Mama T actually came out and said abortion was "the taking of a human life". She should fill out a job appliation for Henry Hyde's staff.

This thread give another example why I do not regret casting a write-in vote for NADER after some fools in Iowa and New Hampshire decided to nominate "the establishment choice" instead of Howard Dean. I cannot believe they allowed chimp to STEAL another election. Everyone who gave us a defeatist like Kerry should be ashamed of themselves.

As for the "pro-life" Democrats, they can go to hell. If you want to take away a woman'r right to choose, you should join the Repug party. Good riddance!

[TayTay]

55. I don't think a 100% rating from NARAL is a cave

Kerry has a perfect pro-choice voting record in the Senate. 100%. What other proof do you want?

He is talking about reframing the debate and showing sympathy for the meotions behind the issue of abortion. This has merit. But the guy has both talked the talk and walked the walk. I don't think you can get more pro-choice than that 100% rating.

[Cheswick2.0]

67. he didn't get that rating this past year!

He is caving NOW. Now is what matters.

[TayTay]

86. 2004 ratings not out yet, cuz they are not compiled yet.

So, ahnm, I don't think he can be rated for 2004 yet. 2003 rating from NARAL was 100%. You can go to NARAL and check it out. And they endorsed him.

[blondeatlast]

40. How many 2004 primary candidates were anti-abortion before they ran?

I can think of two off of the top of my head, one of whom earned my primary vote AFTER he changed his position.

Many people find abortion abhorrent, but corner them on whether they want to see the end of Roe v. Wade by legislation or a Constitutional amendment, and they blanch at the thought.

Let them in, but let them know in no uncertain terms they WON'T change Dem policy.

[question everything]

54. The sad reality is that even if Roe v. Wade stays on the book

de facto there are fewer and fewer places to have abortions as physicians are being threatened and states throw obstacles. This is especially true in rural areas, where women have to travel for a day, at least, to find a place for abortion and where a "mandatory" 24 hours makes it that more difficult.

We don't read about this anymore, but I remember as far back as 10 years such stories were published.

Oh, forgot, the "liberal media" does not want anyone to think about it.

[Cheswick2.0]

68. there is no reason to let them in if you do not agree with their position

politics is about winning on issues. If you disagree with a persons stand on an issue, find someone you do agree with. No one has a "right" to be elected.

[ElectroPrincess]

82. Pro lifers of all strips want to make abortion ILLEGAL ...

They want to legislate morality? How about we start with banning executions in the USA? Then maybe if we make birth control readily assessable we could consider limiting and making abortions genuinely rare.

I have no respect for any politician who wants to insert their religious or personal moral beliefs on other.

I don't wish to welcome in so called Pro-lifers in the Democratic Party. If we get to be THAT tepid, I'll back away from volunteering with the Democratic Party.

We are a party of pro-choice in MANY areas. That's what makes us Democrats.

[DemBones DemBones]

111. Not so. I'm pro-life, by which I mean I oppose capital punishment, war,

euthanasia, and abortion, but I don't support making abortion illegal, which would merely lead to illegal abortions.

I support social change and changes in people's consciousness and consciences so that abortion are euthanasia are no longer championed by the left, and the right stops championing war and capital punishment. In regard to abortion, attitude changes are essential to bring about commitment to providing sex education and improving availability of contraceptives.

As for imposing personal or religious moral beliefs on others, that's how society works. When abortion is available on demand with few restriction, people like you are imposing their personal or religious moral beliefs on people like me. The bumper sticker slogan "Don't like abortion? Don't have one" misses the point, rather like a slogan saying "Don't like execution? Don't have one."

The idea of civilization is to reconcile disparate beliefs, which always involves compromise from all sides.

[imenja]

7. Russert asked Dean about this on Sunday

Dean said he agreed that the Democrats need to respect pro-life members of the party. He said if a person is a pro-life Democrat (rather than Republican), they have a profound respect for the value of life, both before and after birth. Those Democrats, he noted, also supported day care, health insurance, and programs for poor children. Many, I expect, are Catholics who also oppose the death penalty and the war. His overall point was that theirs is a moral position that should be respected, even if we disagree with it. It was not a plea to embrace the ideas of the Christian Right, quite the opposite.
I don't know how Kerry intended the statement. His concerns might be quite different from Dean's. If he thinks he's going to increase his political capital by taking these issues from the Republicans, he's badly mistaken. If it is part of an effort to point to the moral foundation of progressive politics, I can support that.
I should point out here that I myself am pro-choice, but I can understand and respect a pro-life point of view as long as it is accompanied by efforts to promote birth control and the economic well-being of families and thereby lessen demand for abortions.

[Cheswick2.0]

69. he also said he is Por-choice and doesn't believe that law

should have anything to do with medical care.

His answer about welcoming anti-choice people etc.. was one of the few times I disagreed with him. I don't think it is necessary to make a place for anyone. If you win as a democrat and you are anti-choice fine. Why do you need a special place made for you to feel welcome? Get a grip, if you are anti-choice and you vote that way, you can easily be defeated next time around. That's politics.

[ThorsHammer]

74. Well said, Dean said exactly what I feel (nt)

[Us vs Them]

8. I'm not sure if that's exactly what Kerry is saying.

I don't like abortion either, find me one person who says they do. It's as uncomfortable to talk about as it is to undergo. However, it has been made clear that any anti-choice stance is an infringement on our rights as citizens of the United States, and that position must be made clear.

Howard Dean frames this issue quite aptly when he explains abortion as a medical procedure. This is the choice of the woman in question, alone. However, there will always be those who cite moral issues as a good reason to ban abortion altogether. To them we must also reach out, by saying we applaud their commitment to life, children, and the devotion that goes into raising a family; but discourage them from infringing on other's rights by implying their opinions on the issue trump those in favour of abortion. Judgment is not a progressive display of morality.

[JI7]

10. right, some antichoice people view prochoice same as "liking abortion"

and Kerry is saying they have to show it's not about "liking abortion".

[melnjones]

21. EXACTLY. nt

[Cheswick2.0]

71. people are not that stupid

they are manipulating the debate and Kerry and most other politicians are falling for it.

[janx]

93. They always do. n/t

[loyalsister]

132. EXACTLY!!

Just like they fell for the debate on PBA. Gep actually voted for it, and Kerry didn't let people know it was BS when confronted in the debates.
The thing most sincere prolife voters went to the polls unaware of was that the abortion rate increased under Bush.
Kerry could have used that. Instead, he believed that they wanted a guy who believed it was wrong as a opposed to a reduction in numbers.
It's simpler than he thinks. It's not about getting into their dialogue. It's about focusing on the actual priorities.
Bush had an opportunity. EC could have gone OTC. If he had continued Clinon's policies + EC\OTC we would have seen a MASSIVE decrease in abortions. Talk about a feather in a cap for the people who really would like to see fewer abortions!
But nope. IMO, Kerry could have courted some of those voters by pointing out that difference in priorities. I really believe those are voters worth courting. I think the common ground is the RARE.
Of course the real extremists who oppose EC wouldn't buy it. But, they're probably a lost cause anyway.

[Gayla]

101. You used the right terminology to re-frame the debate

It shouldn't be "pro-choice" and "pro-life"..It should be
"pro-choice" and "anti-choice"...

[mzmolly]

152. That's why I like the "Safe, Legal and rare" mantra. It frames the issue

in a reasonable light.

[mairceridwen]

12. yeah

We need to take charge of the debate and incorporate all issues involved (bodily integrity, autonomy, health, economics, and so forth) rather than just "reach out" on the terms set by the right wing.

[saracat]

31. What is wrong with "liking " abortion? I like abortion!

I like abortion better than bringing unwanted children into the world to be abused! I like abortion better than ruining the life of a young mother before it has a chance to begin. I like abortion better than bringing a defective and suffering child into the world . I like abortion better than having the mother die or be injured. I refuse to parse my words. I support abortion period. If you don't like it ,tough.

[Us vs Them]

32. Say it proud: You like abortion!

I like the option of it, yes, but it's an unfortunate necessity. I have a feeling it will continue to be, if we can judge by the current administration's views on safe-sex education. Whoops, what do you know, undereducated kids get pregnant.

I have absolutely no moral issue with abortion, but have to understand some people might. It's cases like "save the mother or save the baby" where we can REALLY get into some debate with them, as they'd rather let a grown woman die than to allow her the decision. Tricky situation.

[ohioan]

46. I don't think anyone in their right mind LIKES abortion

I despise abortion, I wish it weren't necessary. I wish every fetus could be carried to term and be brought into the world loved and provided for.

But, until many things change - both medically and within our society - abortion is often the better choice for some people. That's why I support choice, which is NOT the same as liking abortion.

[Cheswick2.0]

73. okay, now we know you are morally superior to women who have abortions

good for you.
There is nothing dispicable about a woman having the option of not ruining her whole life because there was a hole in her diaphram.

[ohioan]

116. What in the HELL are you talking about?

I said nothing about feeling morally superior nor do I pass judgment upon women who choose to have an abortion.

Perhaps you should read my posts before making any more snide comments about them and my views.

[saracat]

77. But I can "like" abortion the same way I "like' any medical procedure, ?

I "like " it the way I like an appendectamy or hysterectomy. I am glad it is available if needed.I don't believe abortion should be used as a method of birth control. It is too dangerous for the woman, but I don't feel it is right to feel "morally superior" because you may have a different opinion of when life begins. I consider myself in "my right mind", and I don't consider a fetus "life " in the same manner as an already born human.

[ohioan]

117. You are one of the very few people I've run into who "likes" abortion

I am strongly pro-choice. So are most of my friends and colleagues. None of them (including women who have had abortions) "like" abortion. They like having the option and believe that it should remain available. But that is far different than liking abortion, which is, in the view of many, evidence of how utterly society has failed women and children. Abortion would not be necessary in a society where women and children were truly valued - pregnancy and motherhood would not be an unbearable burden to any woman and children would never be faced with a life of neglect, hunger and poverty. But we do not live in such a world.

I think the fact that abortions are still necessary is a tragedy. But I think it would be a greater tragedy for that choice to no longer be available to women who feel they must take that option.

[saracat]

123. Look, I like it, as I said ,like any medical procedure.

I like the fact it can be done if it is needed. I certainly wouldn't advocate surgery for the fun of it! Nor would I advocate an abortion for "fun". But I am grateful that they are available for those that need them. I don't think abortions are necessarily a "tradgedy:. I think most of the time they are a Choice. Sometimes the choice is painful and sometimes it is expedient. But it is primarily a choice. I think it should be left at that.

[zulchzulu]

11. Dean said exactly the same thing on MTP this past Sunday

Kerry's point (and he's made it before) is that the Democrats need to not be viewed as thinking abortion is good. Like Clinton said, it needs to be rare and still available as a medical procedure.

As for those bitching that Kerry never brought up abortion in the campaign, that's utter bullshit. EVERY speech he ever did that I saw (and I saw dozens of speeches) would have some part dedicated to women's right to choose. Kerry has a 100% voting record with Planned Parenthood...that's 100 out of 100.

[JI7]

14. he made support for roe v wade a litmus test for appointing justices

and he was the only one who directly answered the question about it in the debates by saying he wont appoint anyone who wont uphold roe v wade.

bush never answered it directly and said some shit about dred scott and some other crap.

[mairceridwen]

15. I think the media

avoided it. it's really all about controlling the message.

kerry's fine on issues of choice, I just think *sometimes* he's bad at talking to people and framing things firmly, intelligently, but still simply.


My mother is a one-issue voter because of abortion which is the only way she could feel good about voting for Kerry (she's a good liberal otherwise who just hates ALL politicians). She's also started donating money to NARAL. I'm so proud of her. :) I think she'd take up other activism too if she had time.

[GainesT1958]

16. What's wrong with saying what Clinton did?

That abortion should be safe, legal...and rare?

Sure didn't hurt HIM in getting the support of NARAL in '92!

And what's wrong with encouraging those who disagree with abortion to be in our Party...that's the problem with Repubs..it's either their way (anti abortion in EVERY case) or the highway. DAMNED if I'm going to be like them...or force a large segment of the population...i.e. one agreeing with us on every social issue except that one...into their hands!:mad:

Our congressman happens to oppose abortion except in cases of rape, incest or the endangerment of the life of the mother...and he's a Democrat, a genuine one (NOT a Zell- or Lieberman-style DINO). I, for one, don't want a Repub who claims to be "pro-choice", and yet supports Dub the other 99% of the time!:grr:

B-)

[JohnKleeb]

22. Who is your congressman out of curiousity?

There are a lot of good dems particularly from heavily rust belt industralized areas in states like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota who pretty much oppose abortion often but are quite populist on the issues. I am pro choice myself but I can like and respect a democrat who opposes abortion but is consistent and is for helping the kid after birth.

[Cheswick2.0]

76. that's very open minded of you since they will never be voting against

your rights.

[mairceridwen]

23. it's not so much that I disagree

with "reaching out" but when we do it on their terms instead of ours. That's why I keep emphasizing framing the debate, making our opposition to the pro-birth arguments clear and providing intelligent alternatives.

[CTyankee]

64. thank you, mairceridwen

Your message is right on. I'd like to add that while Kerry consistently said he was pro-Roe, the larger issue around reproductive rights was not discussed in the campaign. Access to family planning, Title X (which I think will probably be taken away from Planned Parenthoods all over the country), research into new technologies for contraception, teaching kids about sex with accurate medical information (everybody go see the movie "Kinsey"!). These are all critically important to the health of this neation.

Remember, Clinton's head of the FDA took the bold step of encouraging pharamceutical companies to develop Emergency Contraception, which has prevented countless unplanned pregnancies. This is exactly what the larger picture of reproductive rights includes and should be brought out in public debate, but wasn't in the last election.

[melnjones]

26. Well stated. nt

[LittleClarkie]

29. For me it's a framing issue

No one is PRO-abortion. We need to work on the problem from the other direction -- prevention. Education. Concentrating on abortion is dealing with the issue of unwanted pregnancies far too late in my opinion.

And please remember that being pro-life is indeed a one of the choices. I am pro-life, but I uphold others right to choose for themselves.

Pro-life also means protecting the POST-born. As such, most of us here are pro-life. Anti-war, anti-capital punishment. Anti-poverty.

In addition, this is nothing new for Kerry. He's rattled the liberal cage before. And he did tell us he was pro-life, didn't he? Did we think that was a campaign stance?

[The Flaming Red Head]

41. They don’t want to only be in the Dem party, they want to take it over.

That’s how they operate and we all know it and the leading Democrats are being horribly disingenuous by not acknowledging that and allowing them any foot hold.

These pro-life people are nothing but bullies.

They believe that birth control pills are abortifacients and soon we may not have access to those.

[ElectroPrincess]

50. And they are NOT totally pro-life ...

I'd prefer to call these "touched" folks Anti-Family Planning vice Pro Life. The vast majority of those who proudly call themselves Pro-Lifers also fully support Execution.

The above position is NOT Pro-Life.

As a Catholic, I personally do my very best to live (set an example) as a Pro Life person. The difference between me and some (too many) foaming at the mouth Catholics that block abortion clinics - is that I BELIEVE in my heart and soul that Jesus would not want me to FORCE or COERCE my fellow Americans to believe all the tenets of MY faith.

Call these people what they are = PRO-AUTHORITARIAN / ANTI-FAMILY PLANNING zealots. If they make strides at making Abortion illegal, take a guess what will be next on the agenda? Yes, banning contraception. We see already how they shun the distribution of condoms, as if, people are so mindless we are all gonna jump on each other ... gee, that's just demented (fundies afraid of passing out condoms).

[The Flaming Red Head]

56. There are many Pro-choice Catholics too.

I had to arrange clinic defense shifts, so people could leave and go to Mass.

[question everything]

57. Semantics are important. They are "anti-choice", not "pro-life"

As many stated here: pro-life means pro life after birth - access good health care including and especially the handicapped. Decent education, jobs and retirement.

And, of course, federal support for family planning and sex education. As studies show, the percentage of pregnancy among teens who "took the pledge" - or whatever the term is - is higher. Because when hormones take over teaching, they are ill prepared to handle the situation.

[The Flaming Red Head]

58. Mostly I think of them as bullies and thugs

from my experience dealing with them.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. your congressMAN is a jerk

and a panderer.

So he thinks he knows better than the pregnant woman what conditions are unbearable? If he believes that abortion is wrong why is it okay when the "father" is a rapist? Did that unborn child rape the woman? Why should it pay for the crime of the father? Why is he exchanging his judgement for the woman's?

[saracat]

100. And the repugs win because they have defined themselves. We are supposed

to be pro choice and there is no necessity to "make room" for those who don't support that position. Maybe we should "make room " for the KKK. Sheesh. This is sickening.

[Cheswick2.0]

75. not exactly

Kerry made a big deal during the debate about how he is personally opposed... the preciousness of life...rah rah rah...every fertilized embryo is a life...life begins at conception... I am a good catholic......gag me already

Dean never did that. He never would. In all honesty I wish Dean hadn't gone as far as he did. I am sick of placating the anti-choice, every egg is a person crowd.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

88. Kerry said: "I cannot legislate a personal article of faith"

That is essentially what he said in the last debate, and it could not be more clear.
I have no problem with, and in fact embrace, those who acknowledge that personal opinion and belief are superceded by law and the greater public good.

[question everything]

103. I posted here several times during the campaign

I wish that he came up and said that no one "likes" abortion and that the Kerry administration would dedicate funds for education and family planning for encouraging adoption and for supporting children that are already here. That I wished he faced the issue square off, instead of hoping it would go away.

As was during the debate, he, and many of us, are often put on the defense about our pro-choice stand. Good politicians know how to turn every thorny issue around and put the other side on the defense.

[melnjones]

24. We all complain

that the GOP and conservative right vote on one issue- abortion. What a shame if we did the same thing. There has got to be some understanding between the two viewpoints without having to sacrifice our own beliefs and values, or we're just as bad as they are; not to mention it leads to all too many useless and heated arguments.

[janx]

98. "There has got to be an understanding between the two viewpoints"

How about this:

If you don't like abortion...
don't have one.

[LittleClarkie]

27. And we suddenly believe the corporate media why?

Eh.

Here's an interesting article on this, plus affirmative action, plus gay marriage.

http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/articles/2004/11/21/opinion/sam%20hall/sam57.txt


"Sen. John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic nominee for president, has been ridiculed for his fluid positions on important issues.

The lampooning of Kerry as a flip-flopper is common political protocol, and the Massachusetts senator has definitely left his flank uncovered for such attacks.

That said, exactly how much of Kerry's flip-flopping is really a politician straddling the fence versus a man trying to balance his personal beliefs with his political stances?

Any such analysis should be prefaced by the fact that perhaps a person's politics will reflect their personal beliefs and therefore any argument other than Kerry as a flip-flopper rings hollow. That said, personal desires do not always reflect legal limitations-such as a pro-life stance in the face of legalized abortion-though personal stances often lead to years and years of political strife to make changes for the better-such as the result of the civil rights movement."

[tuvor]

30. Can we just call a spade a spade?

The last thing I want is to flame or be flamed, so please take this in the spirit with which I'm trying to give it.

Pro-lifers often use "anti-life" when describing their opponents. And pro-choicers often use "anti-choice". Except to piss off and belittle opponents, I've never understood their use.

Since this subject is about abortion and those who accept the procedure and those who do not, why can't both sides just use "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion"? It's not perfect (and I don't think everyone's 100% on one side or the other all the time), but there has to be an alternative; the concepts of choice and life are much, much bigger than just the abortion debate. No sane person is truly anti-life, nor truly anti-choice, I think it's safe to say.

Besides, even the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are poor descriptors. If pro-lifers were truly pro-life insofar as their cause is concerned, they'd be taking a more active role in the lives of the women who want to see everything through to term, and they'd give them as much support as the mother and child needed for as long as needed. I don't think that's typical. And if pro-choicers were truly pro-choice insofar as their cause is concerned, they'd also be taking a more active role in the lives of the women who want to see everything through to term, and they'd give them as much support as the mother and child needed for as long as needed. I don't think that's typical, either.

Now, can I say all of this without getting flamed? I hope not, but I guess I'm about to find out.

Cheers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. Because I Am Pro Choice And Not Pro Abortion....

I believe abortion should be safe, legal, and rare...


If a woman asked for my counsel regarding an unwanted pregnancy I would ask that she have the baby and put it up for adoption but I am not willing to use the awesome power of the state to force her to accept my recommendation....

[question everything]

59. Well said. Thank you n/t

[question everything]

120. I prefer reproductive rights

What happens if at some point someone suggest to borrow from China and legislate that each couple can have only one child and will mandate abortion for subsequent pregnancies?

[tuvor]

122. Much more neutral. I prefer that.

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post.

It's such a heated issue, I don't think there's any light to be produced by the labels.

Cheers.

[proudbluestater]

33. I'm with you on that, Question

The Repukes chased me away with their no choice option, that's what brought me to the Dems years ago in the first place.

[nightperson]

35. "He did not help the cause."

Anyone with further info on that statement? Sounds huge to me.

Also: "Bummer for them".

[LittleClarkie]

37. Who's blog is that?

Wow. That person is the poster child for what Kerry is talking about. No dialog possible. Just a belittling, condescending attitude that brooks no discussion. Like a Left Wing Rush Limbaugh.

Wow.

And what about abortion isn't "icky" in the same way any invasive procedure is going to be "icky."

[nightperson]

131. The blog belongs to Duncan Black, from Media Matters For America.

It's a link on DU's homepage. Poster child? ;)

[LittleClarkie]

147. So... is Duncan a tribble?

Not that dudes can't be pro-choice, but there's something about a strident pro-choice male that seems sort of disconnected for me. He will never know what it's like to have an abortion.

[dsc]

38. Pro lifers provide a quarter of our votes

and in some places we need them to win. Why should your single issue trump all others.

[Q]

39. But are they single issue voters?

That is...would they NOT vote for Democrats because of this one issue. You've already implied that they do indeed already vote for Dems...so what's the problem?

[question everything]

62. Single issues that do not force one's beliefs on the other

I thought that this is the core of being liberal

Being pro-choice means just that: it is your choice to terminate the pregnancy or to carry it to term

it is your choice to practice your religion the way you choose

it is your choice to teach your children your values and your beliefs

it is your (country) choice to elect your leaders and to decide the form of government that fits your culture and history

Anti-choice, like the other "moral values" of this group is: you will live and behave the way I tell you because MY god says so.

[Iris]

45. Does that mean that pro-choice people comprise the other 75%? n/t

[dsc]

133. True

But they also provided a little over 1 in 3 of Bush's votes. About 35% of pro choicers voted for Bush including well over 15% of those who favor abortion in all circumstances. Given the majority status of pro choicers that means over 1 in 3 of Bush's votes came from them.

[Cheswick2.0]

83. it doesn't trump all others

there are plenty of pro-choice politicians to vote for who are also good on the other issues I care about.

[ElectroPrincess]

84. If we (the Democratic Party) NEED people who want to make

both Abortion and Family Planning Illegal, then I think our party has gone WAY too far to the right and has left many of us.

[Mike L]

42. Maybe Kerry was talking about Southern candidates.

That's the only way for Dem Senators and Representatives to win in most Southern states. It's better to have half a Democrat in these states than a full Republican. At least we would have help on the economic issues.

ON EDIT:

I actually read the article. The OP distorts Kerry's satement.

Excerpt:

"The issue and the message need to be completely rethought," says one strategist. Along with gay marriage, abortion is at the epicenter of the culture wars, another example used by Republicans to highlight the Democrats' supposed moral relativism. Polls show that most Americans support legal abortion, yet they also favor some restrictions, particularly after the first trimester. Strategists say that's where many Democrats are, too—the public just doesn't know it. With pro-life Sen. Harry Reid newly installed as Senate minority leader, Democrats are eager to show off their big tent.

No one's suggesting that the party abandon its pro-choice roots. With George W. Bush expected to nominate as many as three presumably pro-life Supreme Court justices this term, advocates worry that the right to an abortion is more imperiled than it's been in decades. But as a step toward ultimately preserving that basic right, some Democrats now favor embracing common-sense restrictions on it. One possible initiative: a bill banning third-trimester abortions with broad exceptions for the life and health of the mother.

Democratic lawmakers have found themselves boxed in by a pro-choice orthodoxy that fears the slippery slope—the idea that allowing even the smallest limitation on abortion only paves the way for outlawing it altogether. As a result, most Democrats opposed popular measures like "Laci and Conner's Law"—which makes it a separate federal crime to kill a fetus—and a ban on the gruesome procedure called partial-birth abortion.

A small group of pro-choice Democrats—mostly from Red States—bucked that trend, voting for one or both measures. Still, the issue is so thorny that nearly every lawmaker contacted by NEWSWEEK declined to discuss those votes or the topic in general. But a handful of those senators—including Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu, Arkansas Sens. Blanche Lincoln and Mark Pryor, and Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh—have joined a new progressive advocacy group, Third Way, that hopes to move the party to the center on a number of cultural issues, including abortion. The effort is headed by a team of strategists who helped the Dems find middle ground on gun safety.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Third Way" sounds like a winner to me. I'll have to check into this new progressive advocacy group.

[Iris]

47. Why, though? I live in GA and we have some of the highest abortion rates

in the country. Do you really think a bunch of rednecks WANT more babies of a certain color? There are people here who think abortion should be MANDATORY for certain people - if you haven't guessed, they'd be of African American descent.

[Mike L]

51. Yes, but what do statistics show about the race of women getting abortions

? I'd venture a guess that the vast majority are white.

[Iris]

80. Actually, there is no vast majority of white folks in GA.

And I have seen the statistics. They are about equal.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

78. There is NOTHING....

"progressive" about that group. :mad:

You cannot be "progressive" and move to the center. Sounds suspiciously like Karl Rove-speak to me, you know, like "compassionate conservative".

Fuck that bullshit.

[ElectroPrincess]

87. Oh, this is the end ... please rethink what our party was founded upon?

This "third way" crap is nothing but propaganda to placate the religious zealots from both sides of the aisle. You know the Democratic party represents the people NOT the religious radicals.

Damn, the DLC is pushing many of us away and you will lose big in 2006 if you don't wake up.

How naive are you? You can't have it all, but these people are certifiably nuts so don't encourage them, i.e. pro-life or else!

That's it, I give up trying to explain but the DLC will lose big if they continue down this "Third Way" lite republicanism strategy.

[Uzybone]

110. Democrats were founded on abortion?

thats news to me.

[w4rma]

52. We have big media to twist this stuff into all sorts of pretzels. DEMS

should not be twisting Sen. Kerry's words into meanings that he did not mean. I saw you guys twist Deans words into all sorts of BS during the primary. Don't do that to Sen. Kerry also.

[Geek_Girl]

63. It isn't just Kerry

It seems that this is the direction the party is heading. A congressman from Tennessee just the other night was speaking in Chattanooga and I swear it could of been a Republican up there speaking. It seems this is their strategy. Personally I don't have a problem with a candidate that is pro-life but I don't like politicians flipin around on issues just to win votes.

[Walt Starr]

53. Well, I'm definitely kicking myself in the ass now

I cannot believe I actually supported this man in the past election!

Fucking rat bastard sellout motherfucker!

Ralph Nader was right!

[Geek_Girl]

60. I think I'll be staying home in'06 and Not bother going to the polls

Oh yeah and if anyone from the DNC calls me up asking for money they'll get a big laugh and I'll hang up.

[blm]

85. There have always been pro-life Dems that many of us have adored.

Dennis Kucinich and David Bonior, to name two. Dennis altered his position recently, but his personal heart is still pro-life. You can be personally pro-life and still support pro-choice political policies.

The Dem party DOES stick by its pro-choice stance, but, acknowledges that there are some pro-life Dems who have honest, earnest religious convictions. Does anyone really want them all purged?

[ElectroPrincess]

89. No, I want them to practice their beliefs freely but to also

refrain from preaching to the politicians, refusing communion, and in essence sticking the Bible in our faces every time the law doesn't do what they like.

[mrgorth]

90. Some of you people's attitudes make me sick

like Kerry isn't pro-choice enough. Fuck sake.

[Malva Zebrina]

91. Ladies and gentlemen

women are going to lose. The right to an abortion in a clean and safe environment that treats a woman as a human being, will be disappeared.

Sorry, but Kerry was accused of flip flopping and I defended him, but this seems like a definate flip flop to me. And he is using the language of the right--ie "pro-life_ without batting an eyelid. My respect for Kerry has dwindled into a jot.

I am out of the Democratic party. They, for the next four years, I suspect, will do nothing but court the right, in the hopes they can be president someday. I want no part of it.

Poor women.

[TayTay]

95. Kerry votes in the Senate on Abortion since 1998

HR 1122-Ban on Abortion Procedures 09/18/1998 Voted No
S 1645 - Limits on Abortions for Minors 09/22/1998 Voted No
S 1692-Affirmation of Roe v. Wade 10/21/1999 Voted Yes
S 1692-Ban on Abortion Procedures 10/21/1999 Voted No
Abortion Access at Overseas Military Hospitals 06/21/2002 Voted Yes
Abortion Ban 03/13/2003 NO Recorded VOTE *
Unborn Victims of Violence Act 03/25/2004 Voted No

Abortion votes in the Senate since 1998 according the ACLU at:
http://capwiz.com/aclu/officials/congress/?lvl=C&only_votes=1&azip=01879&bzip=1207&image.x=10&image.y=12

* Kerry missed this vote because he was obviously faking recovery from prostrate cancer surgery. Wussy. I was going to write something that rhymed with wussy, but, ahm, prostrate cancer is kind of defacto proof that you are not in fact this epitaph.

He wants to talk about how we frame the argument. This sounds okay.

[Malva Zebrina]

105. Believe what you want

I am, frankly, tired of magical thinking with regards to Kerry. You have NO idea what he is thinking but are guessing and base it on his past record which he does NOT mention, nor does he assert himself to protect the rights of women to have control over their lives , their family and their body. He deliberately avoids a definitive stance, publically and to me that says he is playing the game.

I am weary and exhausted by it. I dissent. I reject this political game. We are being jerked around, and all we get is flip flops.

Given the trend lately that Democrats need to go to the right in order to win, which I have read here over and over on DU, I have no doubt that Kerry will flip flop on this also or at best, avoid mentioning his voting record, just waiting around to see how the trend goes.

No way, imo, will he take a firm stand on this issue. He is NOT a leader of the Democratic party. He is a poliltical opportunist and can afford to be one.

As far as his prostate surgery goes, he could afford to have the best of all surgeons perform that operation. It certainly is not pleasant but it was done before he was the candidate of choice and he had plenty of time to recover.l I am sorry it happened to him,as I would be for anyone, but he has had the best and utmost of top medical care simply because he could afford it. No anxiety at all in paying the bill.

And he still cannot take a stand to support we the people who worked so hard to see him win.

It is politics, my dear, and frankly, Charlotte, I don't give a damn.

OK?

[TayTay]

109. This is hilarious!

That has got to be one of the funniest posts I have ever read! Honestly, the guy stands up and takes the heat on voting no on the partial birth abortion ban and the Lacy's law thing and people still down him. I guess there is no one on the face of the earth that is liberally pure enough for some people. Who on earth passes the liberal witch hunt tests?

Kerry wants to discuss how we talk about abortion. We should always be refining how we talk about the issues based on reactions we get. That does not mean he is going to change his vote or his position. (He has a 20 year record on this. It has been consistent. That, in the real world is called, ahm, proof.) I think we should think about how we talk about abortion. I have helped drive women to abortion clinics, helped pay for the procedure, helped care for the women afterward and will continue to do so. (Of course, in the naysayer world of absolute purity, that probably counts as tepid, sell-out support. So be it.) I had a miscarraige once (medical term: spontaneous abortion.) I certainly wouldn't want to see a day when women who have miscarriages are investigated for hidden coathangers or questioned by the abortion police to see if they 'did something' to induce an abortion. (Happened to my Mom in the fifties.) But, then again, I am believing what I want to believe and probably not pure enough on the issue, right? Sigh!

Honestly, there is a point where the famed circular Democratic firing squad devolves into parody. We fire at the ones who have carried the water for the Dems for years because they made a comment. We j'accuse each other over issues we agree on. (Seriously, we agree on this, so does Kerry and it's in wrting and on paper and stored on dozens of web sites that track votes.) Liberal witch hunts are seriously deranged, seriously funny and will probably stop in January when Congress comes back and the real Rethug enemy shows up. But really, what does this accomplish? (Outside of being amusing as hell.)

[Malva Zebrina]

112. Somehow, someway he has lost the confidence of the voters

who thought him a good candidate.

I think the reason is because he never did aggressively put forth a strong message, but was intent upon playing that game.

He lost. That is the reality.

And if the reasoning is that he really did not lose, but that there was voter fraud,than any candidate worth his salt, would have stood up and challenged, publically, for the sake of those who loyally supported and worked for him and whose integrity was at stake.

He did NOT do this.

And there is NO magical thinking to be utilized here re he is just lying in wait for the best chance, etc.

He gave up on us and did it early in the game, while frantic supporters were going about in angst tyrying to prove voter fraud, and sending MORE of the hard earned money to the cause in Ohio. While the money in his treasury was doled out on the cheap.

And now,we read of his apparent reticence to back up his voting record on abortion. Well, he is now back into his "honorable" Senate seat and is back to playing the belt way game. It serves him well because the only thing to worry about is getting re-elected to his senate seat and that is a comfortable place to be for one who apparently could not win an election against the worst man ever who has ever sat in the oval office.

And I would suggest you pay attention, and not laugh, at this bitterness.

It is widespread amongst former Kerry supporters.

[LittleClarkie]

124. Where to start... where to start...

How about here:

Planned Parenthood Action Fund Announces Historic Endorsement of Sen. John Kerry
http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/KerryRelease.html

Endorsement of Kerry/Edwards ticket:
http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/EdwardsRelease.html

Kerry's positions on choice based on Planned Parenthood questionaire:
http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/person-position.html?person_id=2040

Voting Record:
http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/person-vote.html?person_id=2040

Kerry Reaffirms Commitment to World's Women; Bush Policies Continue to Fail Women and Families
http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/release10202004.html

Planned Parenthood Action Fund President Applauds Senator Kerry's Unwavering Commitment to Women's Reproductive Rights
http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/release10142004.html


As for "giving up on us" the proof otherwise is plentiful. The money hes's given for recounts, statements he's made about making sure every vote counts followed by actions in court. Not public enough for you, perhaps, but to say he's not there at all is just untrue. No magic. Just the truth. If he had "given up" he wouldn't be involved. And he IS involved.

Money from his treasury doled out on the cheap? Four years ago, Gore had 8 million left and it was considered not enough for recounts. Kerry keeps about 15 million behind for recounts and such, and he's a miser. He's given funds to help recounts in Washington and Louisiana. And whatever money he doesn't use now for the recounts is earmarked for future candidates.

How is he not backing up his voting record? He's not trying to reverse Roe vs. Wade, just trying to get the emphasis off of the negative and onto the positive. We are pro-life too. We are against unnecessary wars. That's pro-life. We are against poverty. That's pro-life. We are for health care. That's pro-life.

God knows we're not pro-abortion. No one is standing outside Planned Parenthood with pom poms and an "I heart terminated pregnancies" t-shirt. So why let the other side spin us as pro-abortion. We don't want an increase in unwanted pregnancies. We want a decrease. And the best way to get that is through prevention. We need to emphasize prevention. We need to emphasize proper health care and sex education.

IT'S. A. FRAMING. ISSUE.

Kerry likes to do this once in a while. He did the same in 1992 with Affirmative Action, asking his fellow liberals if it was the best way to handle the job discrimination issue. I'm glad he's willing to navel-gaze once in a while and bring us with him.

We need to wake up and smell ourselves once in a while to stay healthy as a movement. I once heard someone refer to the sixties as a time for doing just that. It's healthy. It's good to challenge our thinking on occasion. So... do we pass the smell test, and if not then what do we need to do about it.

[LittleClarkie]

128. Addendum to my above post:

"It is widespread amongst former Kerry supporters."

Statements like this really grind my butt to the bone.

How would you know what is widespread amongst former Kerry supporters? How many former Kerry supporters are you in touch with? What data have you seen that leads you to believe that there is a widespread bitterness amongst his supporters. Posts at DU?

Please don't presume to speak for a group unless you have been designated their leader or otherwise have evidence to support how that group feels.

And another thing...

What good is saying you're pro-choice if no one can state that they choose option B. I am personally pro-life. That is my choice.

[Malva Zebrina]

149. the only thing that is missing is his public speaking out.

Sorry--he is a let down.

He may have great credentials, but he does not have the guts to stand up publically and take a risk. That is what is needed. I am sick of the game.

Right now, I think, that is what is needed. A man who will challenge, publically. A man who will take a risk in all confidence.

OK?

He lost.

He lost against the worst, the most despicable, the most stupid man that was ever a president of the US.

I want a leader, not a man who stays behind the scenes racking up votes in the congress, then avoids, or sidesteps mentioning those views in public.

Lieberman also has a very liberal voting record and Cheney has the worst record ever, when he was a congressperson.

So?

Sorry, he is undoubtably a good man, but not the man to lead, imo.

Beating the drum for Kerry is like beating a dead horse now.

He lost. And he lost against a incurable fascist where every ounce of challenge on all fronts was necessary in order to save our country.

[LittleClarkie]

153. And yet some Repubs I know think he will be the best prez ever

The worst to you is their wet dream.

There better have been fraud, because the alternative is that we are surrounded by these freaks. I've met them. Got called a communist by one. Got told it was okay to live here as a Dem but not serve here as I was unconstitutional by another.

Sometimes I think it's a weird cult mentality.


By the way, that dead horse still has four years in the Senate left, and is in position to be a leader. Hopefully if he comes up with something worth supporting, like child health care, you will be there. I know I will.

He's already spoken about fighting the conservative agenda, and he's already, in the waning hours of the 108th Congress, voted against an Appropriations bill that had an anti-abortion measure tacked onto it, a bill that several Dems voted for, including Hillary. I still haven't figured that one out.

So far Kerry is one of the few Senators or prominent Dems I've heard say the word "fight." Who else do we have for leadership? Clinton? Mr. "Gee I like both these men, don't you?" The man who told Kerry to come out against DOMA, something Kerry refused to do?

Anyone else out there you see?

[question everything]

119. This story was not about Kerry himself changing his stand about

reproductive rights (here, can we use this term instead of abortion?)

But about the way he, and too many, think that the way we can win is to embrace "centrist" positions. And, as others have stated here - where would it end?

Continuing support for the war? Death penalty for "heinous" crimes? Including the "theory of evolution" in science class? A moment of silence at school? And, yes, "some" restriction on abortion?

Many of us just don't trust any of these suggestions. Any of them will be the proverbial camel's nose in the tent. There have been so many before us who fought for each of one of these examples; who often paid dearly for taking a stand. How can we so cavalierly even discuss such compromises?

The pro-choice, especially is a sensitive one. Women still are being controlled by men in most countries of the world. In this country, too, women still earn less then men and dis proportionally occupy the lowest economic strata. And then there are groups in this country that preach that women should "obey" their husbands. Many of us just don't want to yield anything on this issue, knowing that once the first brick was removed, nothing would prevent the collapse of the dam.

[TayTay]

138. The way to win is to build coalitions

It is possible to have strong convictions, not sell them out and still approach others to form a majority in order to win a vote and affect change. The subject of this thread is Kerry's actions as both a Senator and a representative of liberal Democrats. Fine. Let's examine that a bit.

Many of Kerry's years in the Senate have been as a member of the minority party. The initiative to restore diplomatic relations with Vietnam was undertaken when, if I remember correctly, Dems were a majority, but concluded when Dems were a minority. Kerry and McCain stayed on message during both times, had to persuade solid conservatives like Smith from NH and Hagel that restoring diplomatic relations was a good things and get them to form a unanimous opinion in favor of that. There was powerful and emotional factors against them. It got done because both sides reached out. Not easy, but coalition building is very difficult work. I think this qualifies as a 'what did you learn in the Senate' type of thing.

We have to make appeals to those who do not agree with us on everything. Otherwise we will never win anything. Liberals alone do not have the numbers, nor does it look like we will have the numbers any time soon. If we fracture and refuse to accept this simple reality we will lose a lot more than protection for reproductive rights. We have to talk to moderate groups. (It's the Willie Sutton approach to politics. Why do you rob banks? Because that's where the money is. Why do you appeal to other interest groups in an attempt to move forward an agenda? Cuz that's where the votes are.) This is not a sell-out. It is a strategy to win. I'm not surprised Kerry is saying what he is saying, maybe he learned something during the campaign. Maybe he thinks this learned thing is worth bringing to people's attention. Because it will help the cause in the long run. Because right now, we are losing this fight. And purity of belief is not the thing that is going to turn the battle around. We need to try something else. We need more votes, and we need to find a way to convince the people who have those votes. We need to talk.

[Megahurtz]

99. I'm so tired of pro-lifers

they need to stay out of everyone's pants!!! It's like they're molesting people with their highly intrusive opinions.:grr:

It's none of their fucking busines what someone chooses to do with their own body!

[liberalpragmatist]

102. Why don't people pay attention to what he actually said?

First off, there are plenty of pro-life Democrats. Nobody is suggesting we abandon the right to choose as one of our planks. But we do need to frame the issue in a way that appeals to the moderate majority of Americans - who are uncomfortable with abortion, but don't want it illegal. Democrats' problem is that for too many Americans it appears that they celebrate abortion and have no sensitivity on the subject - they constantly trumpet "right to choose, right to choose." Does anybody else realize how legalistic that sounds outside the activist community?

We need to stress that we don't LIKE abortions and that we want to reduce them. We don't believe that banning abortions is an effective way to combat them, so we support the right to choose an abortion as a last resort, while fully funding sex education, family planning, contraception, etc.

THAT's how we should frame the argument.

How purist are we that we have to start tearing someone down when they're merely proposing talking about an issue differently?

[mrgorth]

104. applause

[janx]

107. Prolifers are people who want to outlaw abortion.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. It's fine to welcome the faithful into the Dem party. It's not fine to welcome prolifers into it, in my book.

"Prolife" is not a relative term.

How about inviting the KKK into our party? After all, some of them aren't so bad, and maybe we could convince them eventually that racism really is wrong...and maybe we could show them why we think it's wrong...

[LittleClarkie]

108. Pro-lifers are people like me and Kerry

Neither of us are trying to outlaw abortion.

Personally, I'm just trying to get the emphasis off abortion and onto preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

[DemBones DemBones]

113. Same here, Little Clarkie -- we agree on this!

You said:

"Personally, I'm just trying to get the emphasis off abortion and onto preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place."

and I couldn't have said it better.

I do NOT want abortion outlawed and pushed underground. That's not progress. I want a decline in demand for abortion, brought about by people knowing more about how to prevent pregnancy and being responsible enough to act on their knowledge.

[diplomats]

114. What exactly does "pro-life" mean?

Does it mean no abortions for any reason whatever? I doubt if very many people hold that position. Does it mean only if the life of the mother is in danger? Or if the woman is raped?

I suspect many pro-lifers don't really think about abortion in relation to themselves or their families. I asked a friend who was pro-life, "Would you want to have a baby at age 45?" She said no, she wouldn't. I said, "Neither would I" and left it at that. I doubt it she ever related the subject to herself.

And you know darn well that some of those red-state fundies wouldn't hesitate to get an abortion for their daughter if she got pregnant to somebody of another race.

I just wish they would clarify their position. I think the truth of the matter is that most people are pro-life in some way but don't realize it. The Democrats have been put in the position of championing abortion when they are for choice.

I do think that we Democrats can welcome pro-lifers to the party. The Repugs have pro-choicers in the party and it's not a problem. (Unless they want to run for federal office, of course. That's why Giuliani will be a problem if he wants to run for Pres in 2008. Too much baggage.)

[question everything]

121. I agree that we need to redefine the lines of the battle

and not let the other side define it for us. This is why I wished that Kerry addressed this issue head on during the campaign and not wait for someone else to raise it - as it was during the debate.

WE talk about reproductive rights the way we talk about civil rights and about other rights - like the right for decent wages and rights for affordable health care and the right to retire with dignity.

And how we aspire to reduce the numbers of unplanned pregnancies by actively supporting education and providing methods of birth control, by actively supporting the ones who choose to carry their pregnancies to term and by actively supporting adoption.

This is what the debate should be: defining the issues on our own terms and face them, not trying to ignore them hoping that they would go away, the way Kerry did on this issue. Saying that he personally was against abortion because he was Catholic was caving in. This sent the message that "hey, I am with you on the moral issue but we have this thing called the Constitution and the First Amendment thingy."

[mzmolly]

151. "Safe, Legal and Rare" ~ Billy Clinton.

That's the reasonable position the Party should have if it wants to allow for diversity on this.

I believe as a party we need to defend CHOICE, but we should not alienate those who feel personally that abortion is not an alternative for "them." Dennis Kucinich, Dick Gephardt and many others have come around on this issue.

The alternative of course is: unsafe, illegal and who the hell knows.

[genieroze]

125. Well then Kerry can go to hell, I'm not going to pander to those morons.

[LittleClarkie]

129. DUCK!!

Whew, that was close.

[Padme Amidala]

126. Should have gone with Dennis. He made Roe v. Wade a litmus test.

Dennis was the most pro-choice of the Presidential candidates.

[fujiyama]

130. LOL

That's after years of voting against choice.

I still have a tough time with his vote against stem cell research and therapuetic cloning.

Kucinich has his strengths, but this issue isn't one of them. It looked like a political calculation to me.

[wyldwolf]

135. it was a political calculation

[eridani]

154. It occurred well before his decision to run for president.--

--which didn't occur until he had 20,000 emails from people who ran into his Prayer for America speech on the internet.

[JI7]

146. Kerry made Roe V Wade a litmus test also and unlike Dennis

Kerry has a record of supporting abortion rights every single time with a 100 percent lifetime record in support of it.

but some people who view things in black and white as Bush and other right wingers do have a hard time understanding that Kerry is talking about political strategy to help get votes of those who are not supportive of abortion rights. he said nothing about giving up the issue or compromising on it.

[bklyncowgirl]

134. Sorry but I don't see anything much here

Sounds rather like what Howard Dean said on Meet the Press.

Alot of people, myself included are antiabortion but want to keep it safe and legal. Others are opposed to abortion but are not single issue voters. Some of the people posting here seem to think that if you do not show absolute devotion to this issue that you do not belong to the Democratic Party.

Sorry that's just wrong and castigating politicians for trying to find a way to appeal to people who are pro life but also concerned about social justice issues is simply wrong.

[genieroze]

140. My take was that Kerry wants to be republican lite, and if that's the

case he can suck an egg. We have got to differentiate ourselves from the Republicans and not be a flip flop party. The Jack Of All Trades Master Of None Party is not an option. I like Kerry and being raised Catholic I understand where he is coming from. Kerry did not lose the election, it was robbed from him. For him to state what he did shows me that he really does think * won the election and there was no fraud what so ever. If Kerry wants to become rethugnakin lite then I'm finding a new party. If he does this he will lose more support then he gains. He will lose the whole progressive part of the party is exchange for the support of a few right wing nut jobs. Personally I think this whole abortion issue is a cup of republican crap as is the gay marriage garbage.

[lateo]

139. Can we call Kerry a complete sell-out yet?

[lojasmo]

141. You're behind the times

I've been calling Kerry a complete sell-out for almost two years.

[lateo]

142. So have I but...

I always seem to be shouted down by the sheep.

[UpsideDownFlag]

143. lol...make sure you do it quietly. there are a lot of people here

who still think he was the right choice.

[lojasmo]

145. LOL 70% of amercans believe sadam did 9-11 as well......

[mzmolly]

150. Dean said the same thing. And, at least "pro-life" Dems are consistant

in their beliefs:

Anti-Capital Punishment
Anti-War.

I'd welcome them to the Party, provided they don't want to trample on MY rights.