Here's what I don't get about Clark support on DU

[DrBB]

If you watched the national media over the last few months, the only candidate in the race was really Dean, with Kerry and maybe Lieberman trailing along behind somewhere. After his initial surge and a couple of missteps, Clark pretty much dropped right off the major media radar. If he was mentioned, it tended to be as a "centrist" who was pretty much out of it.

Yet on DU, which is supposed to be a very left-fringe type neighborhood, the main battle has been between Clark and Dean, right along. Maybe I'm just viewing it subjectively--I have finally come out as a Clark supporter in the last few weeks--but I don't think so. On these little polls people do, Clark consistently comes up even with Dean or better, for months now.

So I'm really curious about this. We're right in step with the national media, as regards our interest in Dean, but way OUT of step as regards Clark. There has been WAY more interest in Clark here, proportionally, than is reflected in the national media.

I'm just wondering if maybe we're, I dunno, symptomatic of one of those subterranean trends that take pundits by surprise later on.

Or some other explanation? I know some people think the Clark support here is some freeper trolling phenomenon, but that's just silly. I've got over 3000 posts here, and I guarantee I'm not a troll, as anyone who looks at my stuff (and my LTTEs) can tell.

I mean, it IS kind of weird isn't it? Why has there been such a significant Clark faction here, on this far-left site (the guy is MILITARY after all), so disproportionate to what you see in national coverage and polls?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[hlthe2b]

4. As an noncommitted DEM, that comment is out of line.

Not cool.... Not cool.

[ronnykmarshall]

5. Bullshit!

A democrat since I was 18.

[Clark Can WIN]

6. Ah, so that's what the deal is!

So you've finished your tour around the country and met us all now have you? I must have been out when you stopped by my house. Or, do you have ........... the eye?

[Dookus]

9. I've been a Democrat for 24 years...

Not just a democrat. An out and proud gay LIBERAL democrat.

And I'm 100% behind Clark. He's a real liberal, and he's got the best chance of beating Bush.

[girl gone mad]

14. puh-lease..

only the most bitter partisans believe that.

The simle fact that Clark is able to be ambiguous and nuanced on issues is evidence enough that Clark is a liberal. When is the last time you heard a Republican speak with anything other than "moral certainty"?

[NashVegas]

2. If You're Looking for Examples

http://blog.forclark.com/story/2004/1/16/122428/321

[Tinoire]

37. Lots more where that came from

If you put http://((insert DU User name here).forclark.com/

you can find some real gems along the same vein.

[tameszu]

40. Um, so I don't get why it's bad that people are promoting DU

or discussing their activism on DU on candidate blogs.

Isn't it a GOOD thing that more people become aware of DU so that we can all have some influence and input on the political process? I thought that was the point of activism--online or more concrete--in the 1st place!

[NashVegas]

46. It's Called "Skewing"

It gives the idea that the support for (whatever) is greater than it actually is. It's why news organizations hate Freeped polls.

[hlthe2b]

3. I think we are reflective of those who are watching with intense interest.

We are ahead of the curve because many here were anticipating Clark getting in (and hoping). Thus, there was considerable discussion of Clark before he ever even announced including the electability factors. He came into the race with support ready and waiting here.

[DoctorBombay]

7. I think electability has a lot to do with it.

To me, Clark's biggest surge came when it appeared that he was the best hope to beat Bush, which is the overarching goal.

I think that explains tonight's results, to a degree. Kerry and Edwards are perceived to match up better against * than Dean, Gephardt, Kucinich, et al.

[oasis]

31. That's it, electability. (eom)

[Democrats unite]

8. I am a Liberal

I am for Wesley Clark. He stands for what I believe in, being a retired General is just a plus. Just because he was in the military doesn't mean he can't be a liberal.

When I first started here I was For Bob Graham, but when He dropped out, I went straight to Wesley Clark. To me they have the same goals as I do.

on edit spelling, also I cannot believe there has been a message deleted while I was writing this.

[Clark Can WIN]

11. Cool, I liked Bob too........

[Turkw]

52. I've voted for Bob Graham every time I could, since I was 18, I think that

part of the phenomenon here is a after effect of the Draft Clark movement, and, for me at least, having had one candidate drop out already, I felt it was past time to jump in and get involved, joining DU is just part.

Clark is the first politician I have given money to, and I'm more than 3 quarters of the max allowed to give already.

[John_H]

10. It's simple: I like the guy, His policies meet my litmus test AND

most importantly, he has a better chance of ending the long national bush nightmare than any other candidate.

[neverforget]

12. For one thing, DU isn't representative of national politics. Two,

DU has all kinds of Democratic views on here, not just far-left. We are a big tent, aren't we? I welcome former Republicans to our side of the aisle. That means there is one less of them!

[bhunt70]

13. Always been a democrat...

my 2 cents.

He's an intellectual, he's motivated, I agree with most of his issues.

I agree, if you would have asked me ten years ago if I could support a General, I'd say hell no. Truthfully though, it's hypocritical for me to think the military is just one big bastion of festering hate...my grandfather went from living in a one room house out in nowhere North Carolina to travelling around the world with his family and giving them the experiences they needed to grow and become good members of society, all because of his military career.

I'd never join the military for many reasons but I respect people who do in many cases. Of course, there are an immeasurable amount of asshole in also, but I cant live by making a great big generalization.

[Memekiller]

15. several reasons...

1) Clark's more liberal than anyone gives him credit for. When your average voter sees all these quotes they pull of Clark's, it backfires and people like him more. As much as Bush screwed up the war, Democrats want someone to make them feel secure, and that's Clark.

2) Most of the media is conservative. They're scared to death of Clark. Conservative pundits won't even mention Clark in their editorials. And Democrats have figured out the right wing pundit's gig a long time ago -- and anyone FOX hates that much can't be that bad.

3) People forget, Clark has much of the same appeal as Dean, just not as intense. He's the only other candidate who had a grassroots, web community behind him (remember, he's the result of the "draft Clark" movement), and as much as they've tried to make him the "establishment" candidate, the Democratic party doesn't want him any more than they want Dean.

In short, we have two McCain's in this race -- Clark and Dean. And the media's behind the curve on recognizing it.

[Jerseycoa]

16. Liberal Dem for 38 years

Clark is everything I want in a president. No hesitations.

[LTR]

17. Nonsense

I see a lot of Kucinich support on DU, far more than I imagine is really out there, comparatively. Is this a freeping phenomenon?

And I've been seeing lots of Dean supporters threatening to go Green or vote for Nader.

I don't know any Clark supporters planning to vote for Bush if their guy doesn't get the nomination.

My opinion? I think Dean would do a lot better if he and his supporters would stop ripping apart other campaigns and concentrate on his own.

I found DU before I had even heard of Clark.

[lazarus]

18. Why was he just

endorsed by both Michael Moore and George McGovern, both quite liberal?

He's a good old fashioned Democrat, and someone that many here feel can compete with W and beat him soundly. We tend to be ahead of the curve here on some issues, and this just happens to be one of them.

[bearfartinthewoods]

48. iowa polling showed onlt ONE PERCENT of voters comsidered

endorsements as a factor in their choice. ONE PERCENT

gawd i hope that puts an end to the baleho everytime someone endorses anyone. it don' mean nutin'.

[Nite Owl]

19. The media is talking about Dean

and the horse race in general. I think people here actually read and listen to Clark's speeches and watch his events on cspan. We are informed the media doesn't care about things like facts or the candidates stances (especially some of the things that Clark has said about Bush). To me Clark is left of Dean. Would give anything to see a Clark/Bush* debate.

[mmonk]

20. Truth is

we don't know how things are going to go across the nation. We've had media pundits, inside the beltway dem establishment etc. telling who is doing what and who is a good candidate or not. We haven't had a primary yet, we've had a caucus state. So I don't know if the Clark support is out of step or not. I'm going to wait and see how Clark plays out state by state and lend my support. Rank and file dem voters are not into it yet in many states.

[bain_sidhe]

21. Both Dean and Clark are about *changing* the party

I think that's the key. And there are a lot of moderates at DU too (I'm one, at least on many things) but one thing I think DUers share (at least in greater proportion than the general population) is that we're dissatisfied with the party. We want it to change, to become a more effective opposition. I think that's why you see so many Clark supporters. We think the party should change one way, Dean supporters think it should change another way... but we BOTH want it to change.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[Turkw]

53. I think you have a great point there, and perhaps that is part of the

friction between the two camps of supporters. I'll happily vote for the Democratic nominee, Clark, Dean, Kerry, who ever.

[MontecitoDem]

22. I'm a liberal dem for 20 years

Clark's positions are very liberal - more than Gov. Dean's. I like him on the environment especially. He also is very charismatic, smart and authentic. That's my impression anyway. Except for Kucinich's UN-in-and-US-out rant, I like Kucinich's platform the best - but let's all admit he does not have the gravitas to carry that platform throughout America. Clark's the man!

[Name removed]

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[bhunt70]

25. I think if you take any ONE issue

you can perceive them to be something they are not (ie Bush-Lite) but there is a wealth of information of Clarks webpage about his views and issues and in reading them I have never thought Bush was a good comparison.

[lazarus]

33. heh

The only flip-flops Clark has on the war are the ones the RNC has generated.

[mikehiggins]

24. I found myself writing a lengthy reply to your note but

decided to spare you. The Clark support is growing here because as more and more DU's learn the truth about him, they find him acceptable as a candidate.

Better yet, the more frantic and intense the attacks on him get, the more folks seem to swing over. Go figure.

A common thread fueling a lot of Clark support is the ABB movement. Many of us don't care if flocks of angels do not surround Wes Clark. All we care about is beating George Bush in November. Several reliable sources in the party have no problems with Clark as a candidate, and the media treatment he has recieved makes credible the idea that the administration takes him very seriously. As a democrat.

It seems that the more people attack him, the stronger he gets. Its wierd in a way. If a better candidate against Bush comes up, or if Clark loses the nomination, his portion of the ABB support will swing over to that individual smoothly and without a hitch. So what you are seeing here, I guess, might be simply viewed as an aspect of our desire for regime change in this country and not slavish, star-struck adulation of someone in a uniform.

And what could be wrong with that?

[jonnyblitz]

26. this is a far left site? I am far left and if you think DU is far left...

well..holy crap I don't know what else to say.. :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[in_cog_ni_to]

27. I've been a registered Democrat for 30 years

and am about as liberal as one can get. Just tonight on Larry King Live Clark was saying how much he was enjoying his campaigning in NH. He said it has been a RELIEF for him to be able to go around NH and say WHAT HE TRULY FEELS! Being a military man for 34 years he was never ALLOWED to voice an HONEST political opinion. Now he can and it is MORE than obvious the man is a Democrat and VERY liberal. He is going to be an extraordinary President!

The more people that meet him, the more supporters he will have. He's got..."it"...and people like "it" and I think he has more support than you think. Once NH gets going, Clark will get more coverage and when that happens? Watch out!



Go, Wes!

[MidwestMomma]

28. I think some 'far-left' types have made their peace with the military

Much of my life as a card-carrying member of the Democratic party, I had a hard time separating being anti-war from being anti-military. I blame it on growing up during Vietnam when those lines became very blurred. But I've realized as I've grown older that the military doesn't start wars, politicians do.

I see Clark as a brilliant strategist who can take the discipline he's learned from his life serving our country and soundly defeat bush in November.

I mean I read his MLK speech today and got tears in my eye. What's up with that? How can a big bad general make me cry? I don't know. He's just got something and I want the whole country to benefit from what he has.

Hope this makes sense. I'm kind of high from the excitement of tonight being the first step in the defeat of Bush. It's been such a long 3 years and I can't believe the election is almost here. After tonight, anything seems possible.

Thanks to everyone that worked so hard to draft Clark. You done good!

[Rowdyboy]

30. Proudly voting Democratic since 1972

Liberal, gay, and my partner and I are 100% committed to Wes Clark

Go figure...

[davidinalameda]

34. same here

Clark is very good on gay issues. I was surprised in fact. I really expected him to be more conservative coming from his background but he's exactly what I want in a candidate and a president.

[Cornus]

51. Same here...

...only my first vote was for JFK in 1960. My partner (since 1972) and I are actively working for Wes Clark and his campaign.

A comment above struck a chord with me, i.e., being anti-war does not make one anti-military.

[Hoppin_Mad]

32. The long-time DU'ers who support Clark ARE mostly liberals -nt-

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. Is liberal a dirty word? n/t

[Hoppin_Mad]

42. Liberal is a great word - Much or most Clark's new DU support isn't Lib -

[Tinoire]

41. Even quite a few of the new ones

I think we just often forget how fantastic some of the things we discuss may seem to people who haven't been following these things for years. There are several Clark supporters here I would love to meet in person one day because there's a lot of thought going on in certain heads. Now if we could shut up the propagandists and pologists who don't want to discuss anything, we'd be a lot further with a lot less animosity but all in all, Clark supporters are a pretty good bunch and they make me reconsider my intitial impression that they're conservative Dems/

I still have no understanding of how people who sincerely believe they're Progressives can reconcile SOA, the NGOs and some of the corporations Clark's been involved with but I am sure that one day, some kind Clark supporter will explain that satisfactorily.

I really appreciate the ones who admit- yes that does bother me but I'm staying with Clark for x,y,z reason. People who can do that, do a lot more good than the deniers and they rock, they give their position as Liberals or Progressives more credibility.

[lazarus]

45. Here it is, Tinoire

The easy way to understand how progressives can accept Clark, despite SOA, etc.

It's one of my lines of wisdom I pass on to the youngsters when I feel old and decrepit: I'll find a candidate I agree with 100% when I decide to run for public office myself.

In the meantime, the single most important issue is defeating George W Bush, Inc. And Clark supporters tend to think that Clark is the man who can do it. It's just a happy thing that he also tends to be liberal in most of his views.

Me, I'd like it if he'd drop all the god talk down a notch or two. And I don't like the fact that he's not absolutely horrified at the very idea of an amendment to ban flag burning. And I have questions about SOA, although he's made some effort to answer that issue. As for corporations, well, everyone's got to make a living, and very few of us are more than a step or two from some fairly unsavory practices, whether we approve of them wittingly or not.

[in_cog_ni_to]

55. The flag issue

was a big one for me. Then, I thought...How many people do I see burning a flag on a regular basis? Not many. I do not think there should be an amendment banning it. Then we have Dennis Kucinich who VOTED for the flag burning ammendment. :shrug:

As for the SOA. I have never seen one statement from a Clark supporter saying that the atrocities committed by some SOA graduates were not horrendous. Clark has already said he would close SOA if it is found these things have not changed. Clark defends SOA from a soldiers perspective, not an activists perspective. Right or wrong, people need to understand that. That's been his life, 34 years of it. I think he should be given the "chance" to look at all of the SOA records since it's been revamped, evaluate the curriculum being taught and have recent graduates committed crimes? If so, close it down. He can't do anything about it until he's the president. He will do the right thing if he's just given the chance. I know he will.

[nolabels]

36. There is not one candidate I don't take issue with, that being said,

Clark would be fine, along with most of any of the rest of them. Clark needs a few refresher notes on some things, but losing your job of about 40 years, after doing faithfully, gives him as much reason as anyone else. Sharpton, Clark, Dennis, Kerry, Dean, Edwards or just about 'Anybody but bush'. When one is chosen, I am planing to support

[canuckagainstBush]

38. .

I'm a Canadian left wing nut and I like Clark...

[maxr4clark]

39. The media doesn't believe a general can run as a Democrat

George McGovern talked about this tonight. There is a perception, especially in the media, that Democrats don't like/support/represent the military, and therefore that the idea of a general running as a Democratic candidate is an oxymoron.

Clark is a very intelligent, very eloquent proponent of the core progressive values of the Democratic party, who happens to have chosen to serve his country and his progressive views as a career military officer. He was brave enough to break the stereotype. In some ways it was Bush that made it possible (or as I am sure he sees it, necessary) for him to run, by getting us into an abominable mess overseas--and by (Bush) betraying the last century of progress America has made in building relationships and a good public image around the world.

The people on the DU are those who believe strongly in America, and want it to be the shining example of how to do the right thing around the world. We respond to Clark's message because his message is our message. We aren't blind to what McGovern talked about, because he was talking about us. Michael Moore sees it, too: when you set aside your preconceived notions of what a general is, and who Clark might be as a military officer, you see a man of the highest character doing what Democrats do--trying to be the voice of those who have no voice in our society.

[tokenlib]

43. How to get a "liberal"grip on the military industrial complex...

For years the republicans have perpetuated the "big lie" of democrats being weak on defense. Most of us know the defense budget is bloated with over-priced ineffectual arms systems or ships the Navy doesn't need and the like. Billions for weapons systems but not for people.

For years, the only way for a democrat to defuse the "weak on defense" label was to throw more millions to the defense contractors.

But what happens if you get a democrat who is a retired general into the White House?? A man who wants to do whatever we have to do to remain strong--but no more! A man who will put the defense budget under scrutiny. A retired general that can fight "the big lie" of the GOP that enriches contractors and leaves military families and veterans in need.

Think of the possibilities!! General Clark gives me hope.

[CreekDog]

44. We need Foreign Policy & Military Experience (both are a mess right now!)

Our next president should be a foreign policy expert and/or wizard and know a ton of stuff about military action. This is because the current administration has left us in an extremely poor position in both these respects. Domestic politics is important, but next year, when a Democrat takes on the presidency, he won't simply be able to pull out of Iraq in a week and then undo all the damage Bush and Co. has done. It will take much more than that.

For that reason, Clark is the star of this race. He knows all the players. He's a proponent of the much more globally popular Clinton foreign policy. He also understands the defense apparatus of our nation and won't be its lapdog (like W is).

Our presidents with military experience seem to be much more hesitant to use the military. Clark himself seems to view military action as necessary only in the most severe circumstances (say a genocide). This attitude fits with the general public's, hence his electability and it's sensible position too.

Dean has his strengths, and like Clinton, could learn very well on the job. Dean is smart and he is a quick study. You watch how quickly he takes advice on campaigning --he seems to absorb it from all points very quickly.

That said, I'd rather have someone come in office immediately prepared to take on these foreign policy issues. I trust Dean to do the right thing on his first day in office more than I'll ever trust Bush on his thousandth, but I think Clark is prepared better today than any other candidate to take on this tough job right now.

[OKNancy]

47. Because WE are the real Bush-bashers

Clark supporters are the true Bush haters, and since this is Democratic Underground it is natural that we would be in the majority. ( I've been a contributor to DU for two years, btw)

Clark supporters want to beat Bush! As we looked for a candidate we found the perfect person to do that. He is super-clean, his background puts the national security question off the table, and it also allows him to be much more liberal than a New England candidate.

Others consider it bashing when we speak our opinion ( which I honestly believe to be the truth). Kerry, Dean, and Lieberman are from the wrong part of the country for this particular election.
Clark is not just from the South, he is a man of the world.

[NicRic]

49. At this point in process ,Clinton was a unknown !

If I remember correctly Clinton was not invovlved in the Iowa cacus the frist time around .Please correct me if Iam wrong ? Its still early and as we have seen with Dean ,being a "front runner" can be a death sentence in this game !

[dsewell]

50. The Internet factor

Don't forget that Draft Clark was, like Dean's grassroots campaign, highly reliant on Web sites and email lists. So Clark supporters tended from the start to be online and hooked in to key blogs. It's true that at some point DU was specifically singled out on one of the Clark lists as a place that could use some more postings from Clark supporters, but there was no conspiracy to pad DU with Clark apparatchiks. People took a look to see what was going on here, liked the discourse, and stayed.

It does worry me some as a Clark supporter that some of the Dean's strengths that the Clark campaign shares (Internet organizing, major fundraising) didn't carry things in Iowa--but the two candidates are so different in background and personality that I'm not sure that counts for much in New Hampshire.

[DrBB]

56. Excellent analysis, dsewell

...and if no one else has said it, welcome to DU. :toast:

I've taken up some of your points in my post below.

[DrBB]

54. Didn't really mean this as a pro-/anti- thread

Not surprising that it did start tending that way. But I'm really just trying to get at the political phenomenon of it rather than the testimonials (and mandatory cheap shots).

I think dsewel's post (53) is closest to what I was hoping for--it makes sense that Clark is an internet phenom, to a large extent, and the fact that his profile has been much higher here than out in the mainstream media is maybe not that surprising.

Doesn't really answer the question of why the media seemed to be almost (almost?) deliberately ignoring or downplaying him until very recently, though.

And this bit is even closer to what I was trying to get at:
It does worry me some as a Clark supporter that some of the Dean's strengths that the Clark campaign shares (Internet organizing, major fundraising) didn't carry things in Iowa--but the two candidates are so different in background and personality that I'm not sure that counts for much in New Hampshire.

It's becoming a really interesting test case now. Dean was touted as The Internet Candidate, and while I DO NOT by any means think his candidacy is over (he is still my 2nd choice candidate at present), I do think Iowa shows that there was a media-induced bubble that popped for him there (remember how last month people were calling for everyone to unite behind Dean, simply on the basis of polls and fundraising?). So in a way, Clark becomes much more a test of whether an "internet" candidate, or at least an internet-based (originally) campaign can cross-over into a "real" one.** Because he has not been getting all that media-hype "he's the front-runner!" stuff, so there's no bubble to burst in that sense.

**To be fair, though, you have to factor in that a lot of the media attention on Dean was negative, of course. They seemed to be annointing him and trashing him at the same time.

Anyway, sorry to abandon this thread last night (sleep beckoned). Thank you all for weighing in.