"Pro-life and pro-choice"

[kentuck]

Can this be accepted in the Democratic Party? Why cannot one be pro-life yet still support the equal and constitutional rights of women ? It may not be something we do not necessarily agree with but women are equal citizens in this nation and no person has the right to tell a woman what she "must" do or not do with her own body. That is the line that must be drawn. She must be protected by our Constitution...

[Worst Username Ever]

1. I prefer "pro-choice" and "anti-choice."

I am against abortion, but for the right to choose. Those that are opposed to the right to choose are "anti-choice."

[Not_Giving_Up]

2. The true pro-lifers don't want to give a woman a choice

I personally wouldn't have an abortion, but I was glad the option was there for me. (I have two wonderful kids, and have had a hysterectomy, so it's not a personal issue for me anymore). If my daughter gets pregnant, I want her to have the same options I had.

[lastliberalintexas]

7. Those aren't the "true" pro-lifers

They are the ones who are simply anti-choice or pro-birth. Much of their stance rests, consciously or not, on their personal misogynistic belief system which requires women to be subordinate and be punished for sex/pleasure.

There are some people who are truly pro-life, who want abortion to be as rare as possible, who want better sex ed and contraception services made available, who want better daycare and support for women and families with kids, who want living wages so that a parent can stay at home if s/he chooses, who want better healthcare (or even access to any healthcare) for women and their families, and who want better educational systems for the children once they are here. Those people, the *true* pro-lifers, are called Democrats.

[wicket]

13. well said

:thumbsup:

[tx_dem41]

3. That's pretty much the Democratic Party's position today....

if you were pro-life (as conservatives use the term), I would think you would have a problem with that stance.

[janx]

4. "Pro-life" is by definition a person who wants abortion outlawed.

The people who define themselves this way want to inject their religion into our government. They coined the term in connection with abortion law. It didn't exist before then.

[Redleg]

9. But are they really "pro-life?"

How many people are against abortion but don't even think twice about Iraqi civilians getting bombed to oblivion?

[janx]

23. Of course not.

The term was created for the purposes of the abortion debate. People who are "pro-life" want abortion outlawed by the state.

[RafterMan]

5. All compromises are false to some extent,

but this one particularly so. The argument on the pro-life side is that the fetus is an actual person, the same way an eight-year-old is a person. Pro-choice people who are anti-abortion tend to view it as more of a potential person. If you look at it this way, the reasoning doesn't work.

What I don't know is how many pro-lifers are that hard core about their beliefs. Maybe they have a soft middle that can be split away if the Dems soften their edges. Maybe not. It seems your line of reasoning is pretty much what the Dems have been saying for years, and I don't think it's resulted in much of a shift on people's views.

[ThorsHammer]

10. You nailed it

The baby/fetus debate is at the heart of this. I'm personally pro-life (not just 'pro birth') as I believe the fetus is a person, but can also see how others who view it as just a fetus can hold the equally valid view that it is just a matter of choice for the woman.
Like you said, there's not much compromise here. That said, there is a huge 'soft middle' that can be acheived on both sides. (From a thread I posted in earlier):

<< IMO, I don't think it would be a big deal if it was rare. Most people, myself included, would much rather have it safe, legal, and rare, than dangerous, illegal, and common. Steps to make it rare would be a good way to appease both sides without caving in. I strongly support favor realistic sex education, contraception, birth control pills, the RU 46, etc being made readily available. This abstinence only garbage is a waste of time. Streamlining the adoption/foster system would be another great step. On the broader scale, we need to address poverty, healthcare, education, jobs, living wages, etc, as these are definitely correlated to abortions (many have mentioned how they were lower with Clinton, and higher under Bush). >>

I don't think this approach would compromise either side's core beliefs (baby vs fetus, life vs. choice, etc), and would address the actual problem much more efficiently than just laws. Abortion won't go away, but taking steps like those I mentioned can make it rare, which should be a worthy goal for all.

[MemphisTiger]

14. I'm with you

The problem with the so-called pro-lifers is they are looking out for every life except the mother. They would have had their partial birth abortion ban, if they had included a provision for the LIFE of the mother. They think that this would never happen. Then I say "you would have no problem including it to pass the bill into law then." Also, you will hear the fundies say that "threat to the life of the mother" is garbage because we would interpret it as threat to "quality" of life.

TO me the problem with the fundies is in their track record. Since Roe vs. Wade the majority of the administrations in the WH have been republican. These people have done nothing to adopt realistic efforts to outlaw abortion. Dubya said that it's not at the top of his agenda. But hey, it's all Bill Clinton's fault anyway, right?

End of rant for the day

[ThorsHammer]

21. It's a nice little wedge for them

They can always say they're "pro-life" (pro birth is more accurate), and then blame "those evil libruls" for blocking them. The next wedge is/will probably be gay marriage.

[MemphisTiger]

22. It's already there

the gay marriage referendums on the state ballots are what got the fundies out to vote. I think alot of them would have stayed home because of the economy or the war, but just couldn't stand to let people that were different than they are life their life.

[thoughtanarchist]

6. Don't accept RW framing of the issue... call it "reproductive rights"

This is an issue of rights. A person can be "pro-life" and at the same time support reproductive rights. One speaks to your faith and the other speaks of constitutional law...

[Justitia]

8. Pro-Choice vs. No Choice

A woman becomes pregnant (by whatever means, voluntary or no).

Will she have any determination over the future of her body and the direction of her life?

Pro-choice = she is in control of her body, her destiny, the path of her life from here forward.

No choice = she has NO say over what happens to her in the next 9 mos forward to the rest of her life (once she is forced to continue a pregnancy, the results are not a temporary condition, it is a fact of the rest of her existence).

Pro-Choice or No Choice?

Will you hand someone else the power to decide your individual fate?

[rabid_nerd]

17. I do not agree with "voluntary or no"

I am pro-choice on the aspect that, if voluntary, the choice WAS MADE.

If not voluntary (rape, etc.), the choice was NOT made, and is therefore still hers TO make.

[janx]

19. I'm betting that you're not female.

What would you say about the millions of women who have gotten pregnant while using birth control?

[Justitia]

20. "voluntary or no" is the GOP platform - no exceptions, in ANY case - eom

[mogster]

11. Good slogan - sums it up! :-) n/t

[EC]

12. I have always wondered why

they don't go with the Free-Will arguement. It's not up to society to choose the way of the individual. The Catholic church (Vatican) did come out and say that the actual sin is the act of having the abortion, not the allowing of. Of course that was buried way back in the little items in the paper. But the burden is on the woman herself, not the man or society...

[rabid_nerd]

15. I am pro-life and pro-choice

I believe the choice is made by the man and the woman at the SAME TIME - when they decide to TAKE THE RISK, no matter the precaution.

IF that choice was violated, through rape, incest, or otherwise, she still has that choice, but once made, the choice is final.

Exceptions for preserving the life of the mother and child must be a priority.

In all cases, any restrictions, if any, should be conservatively applied toward discouraging/stopping birth-control abortion and not to interfere with endangering medically necessary emergency procedures.

[Griffy]

16. Pro choice, anti Abortion .. thats the slogan..

Abortions went down during Clinton.. help people understand that we need to address the reasons ppl have abortions and help there, not just outlaw it and say, its your fault... suffer!

[rabid_nerd]

18. Both extremes are wrong. Both extremes are nuts.

The stats swing wildly not because of whos right or wrong, but because we keep straddling the middle.