I'm in need of an education in Southern politics.

[chicagojoe]

You see, I'm from Chicago, an odd place politically. This is where some Dems are conservatives and some Reps are practically liberals
(or at least moderates). The Republican party here is in a shambles, which began when the Radical Right tried to take over. It's a very blue state at this point.
Anyway, I have two main questions about Southern Politics.
1) How did the South become so dis-proportionately powerful in national politics?
2) Why is it so hard to get a Democrat elected down there?

Thank You.

[JI7]

1. electoral college system

and the senate makeup is about the same way.

[chicagojoe]

11. Well, I understand how that works. It's supposed to level

the playing field. My question about how the South is so politically powerful comes from this question: Do Alabama, Tennessee or Georgia, for instance, contrbute to this nation socio-economically as much as New York, Illinois or California? The same goes for the Western states, like Montana or Wyoming.

[SharonAnn]

154. No, in general the Red states are "Takers" and the Blue are "Givers"

Red ststes usually receive more in Federal dollars than they pay and Blue states generally pay more in Federal taxes than they receive.

[chicagojoe]

183. This is a fact. Why is it that way ?

[jody]

2. Answer to 1, the South has a majority of bigots who vote against

their own self interests.

Answer to 2, primarily conservative Democrats are elected.

[UTDemocrat8204]

4. Don't forget

religion plays a BIG issue. On the street where my church is you pass about five or so churches on the way to it. Heh heh. This is one street.

[mdhunter]

3. Look up Merle Black on Amazon

And read him.

[sandnsea]

5. Always has been

Before the civil war, it was pretty much the solid south, agrarian against northern banks and industry. After the Civil War there was no way they'd vote for a Republican and almost no way a northerner would vote for a southern traitorous Democrat. Until William Jennings Bryan, the Democratic Party was almost powerless. He brought some midwest populism to the party, which helped. But really, until FDR, Democrats didn't have alot of power. Then, Civil Rights and Ronald Reagan flipped the south to the Republicans, and it's still the solid south. I think we have to smear the Republican Party with corporate control and crony capitalism and the harm it does to the people in order to flip it again. And be a party that starts promoting new ideas again, instead of just being against every friggin' thing. The South is loyal though, seems like they always have been. Although the northeast actually is too.

[yardwork]

6. I'm not a native-born southerner but I've lived in NC 25 years

Southern Politics is very complicated. It goes back to the Civil War. Most southerners grow up being taught that the Civil War was a war of northern aggression. From their point of view, the south attempted to create their own country and the north attacked them and forced them back into the Union as a conquered territory. They haven't forgotten that or gotten over their anger about it.

African Americans and northerners tend to see the Civil War as being about the liberation of slaves, and that is absolutely true, but a lot of white southerners have been taught an untrue, romanticized view of slavery as having been "not that bad."

After the Civil War the Democratic Party was the southern party, and the Republican Party represented the mostly urban, industrial north. Many southerners would not dream of voting Republican - until the 1960s.

At that time, the Democrats' pushing of the Civil Rights Acts caused a lot of anxiety in the south. Again, we have to look under the bigotry and see things from others' points of view to understand. The Jim Crow laws and white supremacist violence were horrible and indefensible, but a lot of white southerners were also genuinely scared that allowing blacks to have equal rights would take away their jobs. So they behaved as bigots.

The Republican Party, which had been desperately trying to get a foothold in the south, grabbed the opportunity to woo the southern Democrats, who were very conservative in most respects (Dixiecrats) and gradually got many of them to switch parties.

We are seeing the culmination of the Republicans' "Southern Strategy " that started back in the 1960s. It worked very well, obviously.

[tsuki]

55. The War of Northern Aggression, as you call it, was not about the

liberating slaves. It was about federalism.

The Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in rebellious states.

This is a quote from an article in Ebony (Febuary 2000) by Lerone Bennett, Jr.

Secretary of State William Henry Seward, the No. 2 man in the administration, said the Proclamation was an illusion in which "we show our sympathy with the slaves by emancipating the slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free."

[MAlibdem]

171. In fact,

A county by county study revealed that counties with high concentration of slaves and slave owners voted to seceed at a much high rate than those with fewer slaves. This would suggest that salvery and NOT federalism, was in fact the cause of the Civil War.

Further, any claims that suggest that federalism was this issue ignore the fact that it was the struggle between the federal and state governments over SLAVERY that was the issue at hand, not another dispute of federal powers.

[Virginian]

174. It is peculiar... Maryland, a slave state exempt from the proclamation...

In Baltimore "Inner Harbor" there is a museum of a pre-civil war ship. I think it was the "Constellation". At one point, a placard states that on ships, "blacks and whites worked side by side even before the Emancipation Proclamation."
They made it sound like the EP actually freed people. Of all states, Maryland should know better. It took an Act of Congress to end slavery in Maryland.

[tsuki]

177. The real date of emancipation is December 18, 1865 with the passage

of the thirteenth amendment.

Slavery was an issue, yes, I agree. Was it wrong? Definitely.

Federalism was however, the larger issue.

[clutchcargo]

61. History taught to this Southerner was quite different from

what YARDWORK implied in his post. Still many people want to vilify the South. Maybe it makes them feel better about themselves. All i can tell you is to RE-read the post by Griffindor-bookworn. It is right on the money.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

7. I'm going to be blunt.

Answers:

(Remember that Northerner = any non-southerner, no matter where they're from. Also, my language may seem harsh, but I'm being honest here. The OP asked to be educated, and I have credentials in Southern politics.)

1) Southerners aren't activists. They get up in the morning, feed their kids breakfast, go to work, come home and feed their kids dinner, watch TV, go to bed, and do it all again. An enormous population (if you look at the region as a whole) who are almost exclusively just working folks becomes very powerful as a voting bloc because anyone who treats them and the lives they lead with respect will be listened to very carefully.

2) Democrats fail down here because of actual or perceived disrespect. White Southerners live and work with black people, mostly without real problems, yet northern liberals from lily-white states like Massachusetts and Vermont have the temerity to lecture them on racism. The meaning in their get-up-and-go-to-work lives comes almost entirely from religion, relationships with God, and community/church ties. Most (not all, but most) of their opposition to abortion and gay marriage is not based on hatred, but an honest belief that these things violate the will of the God who gives their lives meaning. Northern liberals regularly make the news for things like disallowing the Declaration of Independence in schools because it mentions God, a mayor who flouts the law to turn downtown into gay wedding central, and attempting to remove "under God" from the pledge.

How would you feel?

Before I get flamed into oblivion, I come from eleven generations of American southerners, have lived here my whole life, and come from a large family of reasonable (quite moderate, except for one sister-in-law) GOP types, all of whom (well, one brother is a borderline case) could be persuaded to vote our way if not for the intolerable condescension.

In a moment, this thread will fill with comments about how Democrats want to "help" such people, and if we'd only gotten our message out about how it would've been in their interest to vote for us, we'd have won the South. That's more condescension, y'all. A southerner hears that as "We enlightened ones in our lily-white neighborhoods, when we're done lecturing you on race relations, need to explain to you morons how we're actually better for you. We'll use words of one syllable, since you're such fucking morons, k?"

How do we win? Quit the condescension, lose the attitude, and stop treating believers like they're all complete morons and all smart people are atheists. That would go a LONG way. Look at some of the percentages in the South -- they weren't 80 or 90. They were close enough that a medium-sized swing our way would do it.

And everyone who wants to dismiss what I'm saying here should be prepared to keep losing elections. Remember, one Southern state would've equaled a clear Kerry win. Just a thought.

[yardwork]

12. Thank you Gryffindor! You are absolutely right.

If only the Democratic leadership would LISTEN to you and others who have been telling them the same thing. I'm serious. I wrote several letters to the Kerry campaign saying the exact same thing.

Edited to add - Picking up on my earlier post, in many ways the intellectual "northerners" are still treating the south as a conquered territory. We need to get over that, people!

The Republican Party is extremely vulnerable in the south right now, imo. If we can regain some control over the news media, a lot of southerners would be horrified to find out what the Republican Party is actually doing. Nobody likes liars.

P.S. What Gryffindor said about southern culture is also very true of midwestern culture, including Ohio, Iowa, Indiana, Missouri, and yes - Kansas.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

17. you're welcome

and it *really* amuses/disgusts me to see people mention the Civil War and call people like my family bigots. My father employs more blacks than whites in the business he started after retiring from law enforcement. My brother the cop regularly has black fellow officers over to his home. I don't go to church, but the church I grew up in was about half black and half white. My dentist is black. My nieces and nephews go to a black pediatrician. It is just not really an issue anymore for most people.

One of the most telling moments in the campaign for me was when Gov. Dean expressed his desire to be the candidate for guys with confederate flags on their pickups. Liberals howled and screamed and were absolutely appalled. That spoke volumes -- they didn't even WANT southern votes. First, in an average day I see far more "God loves you" bumper stickers than Confederate flags. Hell, I see WAY MORE peace signs, rock band stickers, etc., than Confederate flags. At least 40 to 1. But because southerners know that that was Gov. Dean's way of saying he didn't want to give up on the south, when liberals howled, they took it VERY personally, to mean they didn't want Southern votes.

Which, really, I don't think we did. I mean really, think about it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Dean was right on with his remarks

about pickup trucks with Southern flags. These are the very people who will respond to progressive ideas, because they are working people who want a fair shake for themselves and their children. Though many are church goers, some are not, and I think they are uncomfortable with the overemphasis on religion, another venue we could have exploited-respecting religion but not shoving it in everyone's face.

[yardwork]

22. I did not mean to imply that all southerners are bigots

I've met plenty of northern bigots. I've met black bigots, tan bigots, gay bigots, female bigots, bigots of all different colors, backgrounds, income levels, ethnicities, and religions.

But the televised attacks on peaceful African Americans by white southern policemen with dogs printed a strong image of "the South" in a lot of American minds, and the truth is that many Americans (southern and northern) have done a lot of very bad things!

I agree with your point that many southerners are actually more open-minded about living and working with African Americans than their northern counterparts. It's easy to sit in a 100% white community and point fingers. Who is actually out there doing something about it? A lot of them are southerners.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

25. Right - and do you realize that the people who did that stuff are not

in charge anymore? Come on, they're mostly in their 70's and 80's now, dead or wearing diapers in nursing homes.

The people who are in charge now were in elementary school when that shit went down.

[yardwork]

30. I know. Don't get mad - please

Your posts here are very thoughtful and insightful.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

33. Not mad. Frustrated.

It's all okay. :pals:

[yardwork]

38. I think you are doing a very good job of getting the message out!

I think that Democrats are going to start listening to you and the millions of others who have been speaking up.

Democrats aren't going to roll over and let the Republicans have everything. We'll develop our own Democratic Strategy.

The Republicans are digging their party's grave now. All this crap going on in Washington is not playing well with a lot of people who voted for bushco. The Republicans' greed will be their downfall.

[Ron Green]

13. Well, I will mention that much of the white South needed (and still

occasionally needs) a kick in the pants by the Federal Government to do the right thing by the black people with whom they have been so intimately connected, but unequally so. Change is painful, but the fact is that much of what the odious Yankees were saying in the '60s to the Southern whites needed to be said, condescending or no.

[yardwork]

15. I'm with you 100% on civil rights of all kinds

Democrats must never regret or retreat on our insistence on civil rights.

BUT we don't have to roll over and let the Republicans get away with telling a lot of lies about how Democrats are atheist jerks, either. We can regain our side of the conversation.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

21. see, this is crap

You can pick out a couple of instances that have made the news. Well you know what? So can I. Michigan has a much more active Klan than any Southern state these days. It was LA that acquitted those white cops and LA where the most recent race riots occurred.

Up there in lily-white Oregon, it's so easy for you to pass judgment. I live in the South where my 10-year-old niece, in parochial school, has a teacher who went to college on a scholarship at a STATE school - a SOUTHERN STATE school - reserved for black students to try to increase diversity on campus. I live in the South where the bookstore manager I saw this morning when making a return, the head librarian, and the nurse practitioner I saw yesterday to get a strep test were all black people. I live in the South where over 35% of my neighbors are black.

[Ron Green]

32. I thought we were looking a history of Southern politics.

Tell me about your personal experiences, and I'll tell you about mine in the South in the 1950's.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

35. Right. THE 1950's. FIFTY YEARS AGO.

The people who were in charge and making policies then are dead or in nursing homes. For crying out loud!

[Ron Green]

43. Right. The original poster was asking about a HISTORY of Southern politics

I was at the Texas state Republican convention in 1964 and saw the momentum of racism shift to the Republican party from the Dixiecrats I had grown up with and who had ruled East Texas and the South for generations. Nixon was booed at this convention for being too liberal! The hope in the air was that the Goldwater movement would get the pesky federal government out of the states' business, and maybe we wouldn't have to share with the Negroes (or nigras, as they were politely called then). Now I know this is not exactly how it is today, but this is history as I have personally seen it, and that's what the OP was asking about.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

45. Where did you find that in the OP?

How did the South become so powerful?

Why is it hard to elect a Democrat?

That neither states nor implies anything about wanting a Northern perspective on things that happened half a century ago, committed by people who are either six feet under or having their diapers changed - things that have NOTHING to do with winning elections today.

[Ron Green]

64. Believe me, it's not a northern perspective I have. As a poor white kid

in the rural South, I saw how it was there. And as someone interested in politics from an early age, I've always believed that the "War Between the States" has always been the defining theme in Southern politics. It's 150 years past now; it was 100 years past then. Some things have changed, but not deep down.

[Ron Green]

49. Woops, my bad...he was not talking about history, just education in

Southern politics. Sorry, I'm not as familiar with how it works now. But I remember drinking from "white only" water fountains, and I remember black men old enough to be my grandfather stepping off the curb to let me pass on the sidewalk. I knew something was wrong with that, but I didn't know exactly what. My first playmates were black, because it was way out in the country and they were the nearest neighbors. And there was no such thing as a Republican in my county. It was all Democrats, all the time. LBJ changed everything, as others have pointed out here. All the racists who ran my town and county started looking for another direction, and they found it in the fledgling Republican Party of Texas.

[Prodemsouth]

46. Yeah I agree with much of what you say about condesending preaching

by Norterners and the far WEST! Much of these things like the Declaration of Independence story you mentioned are much more than just what the rights says they are ( In that story the teacher was called about his teaching methods because of parential complaints. It actually had nothing to do with the Declaration of Independence. That is what he claimed after he got called on the carpet) These lies need to be countered. This is why my fellow southerners must have some one who talks the way they do and is not condescending and can show them they are voting against their intrest (which they are doing) and explain to them in a nice way they are being played like a fiddle.

[clutchcargo]

83. SINCE YOU LIVE in lily white Oregon--

how would you have any idea about the South needing its butt kicked to do whats right. It is not the 1960's now. In case they have not told you in perfect, no problem, no racist, bigot or any other form of discrimination or repression Oregon ---IT IS 2004!!! WE are in another centry for Gods sake.

[Ron Green]

94. I hear what you're saying, but I do believe that slavery was the defining

force of American politics, and that in the South where it was so deeply entrenched for so long, its effects are still felt. As a kid in the South I saw those effects a hundred years after slavery was abolished; it's only been another 50 years, so we would do well to not close our eyes to the culture under the surface.

There are plenty of racists in the North, too, but integration has at least been the law, if not the practice, there for many years. The South has been a haven for "states' rights," the poll tax, and many other Jim Crow practices. I hope most of this is gone, but I'm afraid that liberal and tolerant people will become the new "niggers" of the South.

[Pepperbelly]

114. Give me a break! You can have your own opinion but not own facts.

Remember what happened in Boston when they began busing to achieve racial balance?

Every bit as ugly as what happened in Little Rock.

[Pepperbelly]

115. Delete

[Ron Green]

137. It's not my opinion that it took federal marshals to start to integrate

schools in the South, though. Or that despite the fact that almost 30% of my home county was black, I never went to school with a black person until I went away to college. Or that, riding through the South on a US Army bus in 1966, we couldn't get served in some restaurants because we had black guys in the group (this was 2 years after the Public Accommodations Act).

These are not my opinions, these are facts. My opinion is that too many crackers were unable or unwilling to do the right thing, and give legal rights, not just familial pleasantries, to the black folks with whom they'd been living intimately for centuries. My main point is that the South has always been, and still is somewhat, as far as I can tell, anti-democratic compared to the North's more egalitarian ways.

[Pepperbelly]

141. Why ...

did you so neatly dodge the point about Boston. Or the Klan membership in northern states? Or the mordern Klan's resurgence in Indianna?

I don't know what south you are from but that bears exactly ZERO resemblence to the South now. Or to the South since 1965.

[Ron Green]

145. Well, I admit my most intimate knowledge of the South was in the '50s and

'60s, and trips back there since then have been imbued with all the ghosts of going home to any place, North or South. I'm aware of the racial issues in Boston (and Detroit, Newark, and lots of other places). The point I'm trying to make, and not doing a very good job, is that the South has not been a model of what the US is supposed to be: a place where people of any race have access to opportunities under the law. It's been very different in the past 30 years or so, but I suggest that the culture and the undercurrent of racism is being transformed into other sorts of un-democratic institutions, such as RW fundamentalism and corporate hegemony, and of course it's all over the country, not just in the South. However, the South has traditionally been a place where tribes and clans "take care of their own," despite what might be in the best interests of the nation as a whole.

[Pepperbelly]

149. my home state ...

consistently produces some of the great liberal and moderate voices in the nation despite being in the South.

:shrug:

[ArkySue]

158. Hmmm

Little Rock (my home town)...let's see, that was 1957. I don't believe there was much violence, mostly threats of it. When did the problems occur in Boston??? 1970's? 1980's? We found it quite shocking that cities in the North were having racial troubles so long after we had gotten over our difficulties. I submit that many places in the South are more racially tolerant now than many places in the North. The whole "South is full of bigots" meme comes from the fact that racism had been more openly talked about in the South and while it was also a common attitude in the North, no one ever mentioned it.

[Pepperbelly]

163. absolutely ...

I live in Sherwood and work in Conway ... Arkansas working poor ... and there are all sorts of people there and we are mostly friends after work as well ... hanging out and stuff. No racism that I see with any regularity. I might occasionally have a red neck mumble something racist and look at me hopefully to see if I'll join in but when you frown at them, they don't bring it up again.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

186. Busing violence occurred in 1974

I was 10 years old. Meanwhile, in other large Massachusetts cities-like my hometown of cambridge-the schools were fully integrated.

Racism is endemic in Southern politics. It is part of the lexicon. A politician who belongs to the Whie Citizens Council or wants the 10 Commandments in the courthouse could never get elected in Mass.

[QC]

187. But pious homophobes like Mitt Romney and Tom Finneran have no trouble

getting into positions of power there.

And why is Boston the only major city in the U.S. that has never elected a black mayor? Even Birmingham broke down that barrier 25 years ago.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

189. A Mayor is a figurehead in Boston, much like the Governor

the city council and the state house run the city and the state respectively. Boston City council is mostly minority (black and latino). It's not so 'black and white'here-there are lots of mixed race people here also, and many Latinos and first generation immigrants. The majority of new immigrants hail from Haiti and BRazil.

My city had a black gay mayor all during the '90s, and most of the other large cities here are very diverse. You and the anti-Yankee Southerners on this thread don't know what your talking about. On DU it's A-OK to talk out your ass and insult Northerners but if the shoes on the other foot all hell breaks loose.

[QC]

191. Oh get down off your cross, Kathy.

There's nothing more pathetic than people who, to use your charming phrase, "talk out their asses" and then, when they get called on their foolishness, do this little Joan of Arc routine.

You made the very questionable remark that bigots and religious fanatics can't get elected in Massachusetts, and I named two bigoted religious fanatics who did precisely that.

The reality is that prejudice is an American problem, and those who, like yourself, believe that they live in Nirvana and everyone else is to blame are themselves part of that problem.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

193. I never said Massachusetts didn't have its problems

Menino is not racist. Please point out where Menino has made a racist remark. Romney is a rich piece of shit homophobe who got elected because the Dems put up a weak candidate. I will stand by that religious fanatics who want to put the Ten Commandments could never get elected here. People here distrust outward displays of religiosity. We believe it's a personal matter. You also can't get elected to high office without being pro-choice. Even that shithead Romney changed his tune so he's get the female vote.

I'm sick of the double standard here that it's OK to criticize the North but the South is sancrosanct.

Anser my questions: have you ever lived in Mass? Have you ever lived in Boston? Do you know anything about our local politics? I grew up here. lived here, served on Democratic committees here. We're not perfect-but we are light years ahead of most of the states in this country.

[QC]

196. Tired of having people who don't know you stereotyping you?

Welcome to my world! That's one of my complaints, too--people who know nothing about the South, other than what they saw on reruns of "In the Heat of the Night," who have never lived here and only passed through once in 1946 on a Greyhound Bus, lecturing me on what my part of the world is really all about.

It's really annoying, isn't it?

As for your qustions, no I have never lived in Massachusetts. Have you ever lived anywhere else? If not, do you see your own double standard here? You can pontificate to your heart's content about other places, but only lifelong residents of Massachusetts are allowed to comment on it.

I'm sick of the double standard here that it's OK to criticize the North but the South is sancrosanct.

Sorry, but that's never been the case, and certainly not lately. Southerners at DU have always had to put up with more than their share of bullshit, but since the election it has been open season on us here. It's hardly surprising that some of us have started fighting back.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

200. Yes, I've lived in Europe and other places in the US

but pretty much have spent all my life in Boston. My grandma was from Tennessee and I have confederate ancestors. So I am familiar with the South, through my grandma who still kept her customs and cooking and never adjusted to Boston winters; through my father who was discriminated against as a Catholic when he was stationed down there in the 1950s; and through my own business dealings. I really never thought of the South as somewhere radically different until I began doing business down there and realized that many of my clients were still fighting the civil war.

I agree that people on DU have been nasty lately, and an easy scapegoat are the folks in the red states. I agree it's not fair because it must be a living hell to be stuck in a red state being a progressive. I have seen a lot of Northeast bashing here though-the repetition of RW talking points labeling is 'elitist' and snotty. It goes both ways.

[QC]

201. We are in agreement here.

And I'm glad for that, because I don't like to fight, either IRL or here. (That's why I deleted my post below--it was a bit combative.)

As for fighting the Civil War again, the only place where I ever run into that discussion is DU. I can't remember the last time I discussed that in real life. The animosity that Northerners sometimes encounter here doesn't, in my experience, have much to do with that. It has more to do with a sense of being looked down upon over the years. It has to do with the condescension that we often encounter in our dealings with people from outside the South. (I used to live in Pennsylvania, and never ceased to be amazed at the questions people there used to ask me: had I worn shoes before moving there, did I go to school, did cattle roam the streets of my hometown, etc.) Here on the coast we get to deal with the snowbirds all winter, and many of them treat us like fools. Many of us have had a boss sent here from headquarters in Ohio who talked to us like we were particularly slow children. And then there is the constant media barrage--just ask yourself what script writers do when they want to convey that a character is stupid and vicious? They give him a Southern accent, of course.

I think that regional resentment has much more to do with things like that than anger over the war (though the war is certainly a factor).

For the record, I had no problem supporting Kerry or Dean and do not consider them elitists. My mom and dad still revere JFK, so supporting a candidate from New England was not a stretch for us.

And yes, you're right about the unfairness of it. We live in places where liberals are a small minority (my county went Bush by more than 2-1, and some neighboring counties were 3-1) and deal with freepers in real life, and then when we come here to be among our own people, we are attacked by those who are supposedly on our side. These past few weeks it's been hard to tell the difference between the freepers next door and the nice liberals here.

[bobbieinok]

151. learned at lot when I went from undergrad in TX to grad in CA in 61

--I had been arrested for taking part in a sit-in in TX; in CA a guy from MS and I seemed to be the only ones in the grad eating commons who saw the covert but obvious racism in CA.......the rest didn't see it and denied it was racism when it was pointed out.....ex. blacks and whites go to a restaurant and are not served until they've been there one hour or more

--we got lectured by some guy from the east who said all that was necessary to fix race relations in the US was to have the military occupy the south for a few years.....just about then or shortly afterwards there was the big bussing controversy in BOSTON, definitely NOT the south, and the national discussion of realtors red-lining housing areas in CHICAGO, again NOT the south

so in answer to your post IT'S NOT ONLY THE SOUTH, IT'S WHITES IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY THAT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH BLACKS

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. You are right

as a Yankee living in Arkansas, I'd say you've hit the nail on the head. And I will admit that while growing up, I looked down on Southerners as rather ignorant and stupid, though I equated this with racial stands rather than religion (I have been religious myself all my life, and was a faithful churchgoer growing up).

However, having lived in the South for over a dozen years (two years in TX, 12 or 13 here in AR), I have noticed a couple of things that I find puzzling. One is the arrogance some Southerners have towards Northerners. I don't know if it is a defense mechanism against Northern condescention or some sort of twisted pride. My husband, a sixth generation Texan, says he noticed this arrogance when he attended military academy in Florida as a youth. He said these folks made you think that they were superior to everyone else, and he resented it.

The other thing I find remarkable is the outright hatred some Southerners have for African Americans in the area where I live, which is 99% white. In other words, these people hate folks they seldom see and don't associate with on a daily basis. One thing I will say is that this group is a decided minority in my area; the city counsel of the town where I work condemned a mass mailing by a KKK-backed 'church' as not representative of the feelings of the people here. And my boss hired an African American to work for us last summer (we regularly hire extra workers in the summer to help with pest work). He told us to drop any customer who objected to Reggie working for us, which tells a lot about my boss, who is a Son of Confederate Veteran member and Southern to the core.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

24. my father did the same thing

a customer disrespected one of his black employees (wanted someone else to wait on him). He was ready to fight - threw the guy off the property and told him if he ever came back he'd better bring an army.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

Good for your dad!

My boss hired Reggie because he was a great baseball player, believe it or not. My boss has been a baseball coach for American Legion Baseball for over 20 years, and tends to look at things from a sports point of view.

[Sparkly]

23. Questions on where the messages come from, and what can be done

I appreciate your comments. I'm a northerner and this divide is something I'm trying to understand.

Where or how do southerners get the message that Democratic candidates don't "respect" them? Are there certain words, phrases, policies, etc. that convey "lecturing on race relations," or "condescension," or "you're such fucking morons," or "(all) smart people are atheists?"

Are these messages they get from campaigns, or are they from a larger sense of history or culture or media, etc.? And if the sentiments are not in direct response to candidates and their campaigns but are instead a larger issue, is there anything our candidates can do/say to overcome them?

Was there anything John Kerry did/said that he shouldn't have done/said in regard to these messages? Is there anything he should have done/said that he did not?

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

31. read what I said above about Gov. Dean

the one candidate who seemed even a little bit interested in the south was criticized at the top of the party's lungs for his benign comment about wanting to be the candidate for Southern guys with confederate flags on pick up trucks.

The party demolished Dean well before any Southern primary.

And no, I don't think it's from the campaigns. I think it's from Democrats and liberals that those message come. Just read this one thread -- bigots, bigots, bigots, ignorance, it's all about the Civil war, yadah yadah yadah.

I have not discussed the Civil war with anyone, including my Southern family, since the tenth grade when I took American history.

As to Kerry, I think the thing that hurt him the most here was his anti-war activism. I'm not talking about the Swift Vets thing -- I never saw one of those ads, and I don't think they ran here anyway. I'm talking about him testifying before Congress saying that American troops did things (that I'm sure some of them did) that southern brothers, husbands, and fathers who were there didn't do, and they felt tainted and betrayed.

[Sparkly]

52. Where do most southerners get the messages?

I doubt it's from DU. I'm trying to figure out where such things are being heard or read.

I understand what Dean meant and he was right; but the confederate flag is a controversial symbol and its mere mention took the focus off the meaning of his statement. General Clark went through the south on a message of "faith, family, patriotism and values" that seemed to resonate. I would imagine Edwards had support there, as well, as a native son.

But Kerry is a church-goer, and a man who respects diversity of opinion, it seems to me. I never heard him say anything specifically derogatory about the south, southerners, any religions, levels of intelligence, etc... His testimony 30 years ago, including the remarks recounting what people said at the Winter Soldiers meeting, were heard and re-heard by people all over the country. There were northern brothers, husbands, and fathers who were veterans of that war, as well, and southern veterans who were members of VVAW, no doubt. So why would that play differently in the south?

What is currently being heard or read by southerners as a whole, from northerners, that we can change?

[janx]

95. Sparkly, I think you're missing the point.

Candidates shouldn't campaign via stereotype. Think about how you would feel if you lived in the South and saw that. There are as many good, common sense, well educated people in the South as there are in any other region of the country.

The "native son" pandering becomes insulting to southerners, because it assumes that they are so ignorant and provincial that they won't have the brains to vote for anyone else, to examine things on the merits. You see?

[Sparkly]

101. I know, I'm missing it by a mile.

I'm very confused.

We're supposed to recognize that the south is a separate region with a different culture, and be sensitive to that. But we're not supposed to approach them as if they were a separate region with a different culture.

We're supposed to recognize that the south doesn't like northern candidates who ignore them, nor northern candidates who insult them. But if our candidates express their respect and appreciation for the south, they're pandering.

We're supposed to recognize that the south resents northerners as insulting, overly liberal, not sufficiently religious, etc., but suggesting that there's a cultural difference or that southern candidates carry regional appeal is stereotyping.

I'm really trying to understand, but I don't. What is it we're supposed to do that we aren't, and what is it we're not supposed to do that we are? What did Kerry, to be more specific, do wrong?

[janx]

106. I don't know what Kerry did wrong--but I doubt his poor showing

there was because of where he was from.

You said that Wes did well in the South, and I'd venture to say that he did well not because he was from Arkansas, but because southerners recognized his talents and abilities just as well as people living anywhere else did.

The South does have a distinct historical and geographical region and culture, a very fine one. But again, it's when people stereotype that history and culture that we get into trouble.

It's a matter of respect. (I think Gryf said that.)

Have you ever spent time in the South? If not, you and Husb2sparkly should head down to N'awlins!

[Sparkly]

112. Thanks, janx

Much to think about. (Plus it's fun to say "thanks, Janx.")

Yes, we're both from Connecticut originally but "Husb" lived in the south for many years; Northern Virginia is as far south as I've lived, but both my parents are native southerners. (My dad always insisted southerners were friendlier, we liked how his relatives called us "Sugar," and he made us things like biscuits, grits and cornbread; mom was from Oklahoma and had expressions that NObody else in Connecticut ever said! I don't know if that's stereotyping, but it was clear they were a little different in some ways.)

[janx]

126. You're welcome!

Given your background, I don't know why you were asking me questions...I grew up in St. Louis, which is north to some and south to others. But growing up near the center of the country enabled me to explore different places and take some great trips. I lived in CT for a couple of years and live in CO now. I lived in GA for about six months when I was a lot younger. I have a brother in FL and another one in OR, so we're pretty well spread out.

Southern Missouri is very southern, in accent and in culture, somewhat. And I've talked to RA about our float trips on the Buffalo River in Arkansas.

It's a good think I don't live in the South now. The food there is so good that I'd be fatter than I am already.

Oklahoma is sort of a different entity altogether. I spent some time there too. I guess it's sort of southern Midwest (like Texas?)

[SharonAnn]

155. You've got it! I've lived here in Tennessee and those are my

questions!

I've spent five years working intimately with long-time residents here on community issues. They're nice to my face but I overheard what they said about a couple of us "Yankees" the other night. Made my blood run cold! It was so insulting, so patronizing, so incredibly offensive that I couldn't believe what I was hearing at first.

There are a few long-time families in this county who really run things and they take everyone else for a ride. Taxes go to support the family enterprises in one way or another. Civil service positions are filled with family members and friends (they're the only good jobs with benefits here).

Sad.

[Leilani]

102. Sparkly, I'll try to answer that one

Since I lived in the South many, many years.

Patriotism & the military is in the blood of most Southerners. John Kerry's testimony to Congress, where he accused our military of war crimes & atrocities, would have made a profound impression.

The South contributes more people per capita to the military than any Northern state. The South is filled with military bases, & servicepeople are treated as part of the community.

Lots of Northern states have thrown military bases out, treated the people like criminals. New York had a brief flirtation with home porting, & the demonstrations were overwhelming.

Another thing...Kerry just completely wrote off the South...he treated it like it didn't exist. He said to these people, subconsciously, you're not worth my time & effort.

Also, people in the South see the nation's culture coming out of New York & Cal. TV shows, movies, news, & many times Southerners are stereotyped as red-neck hillbillies. It's a elitist message, & they feel excluded & belittled.

[Sparkly]

108. Makes sense

Lots there to think about, thanks!

Why didn't Chimp's fake military persona anger people more, and Kerry's status as a decorated veteran count more?

I think campaign energy does tend to go to states where it's believed to be closest; but you raise a good point. How is that decided? Because it looked to me like there were southern states (Virginia for one) where Kerry did have a chance if he'd invested in it. Are Democrats too quick to write off the south? Would it be the same with a southern candidate?

I agree there's alot of fun made of 'hillbillies,' or at least there was last time I watched sitcoms (which was a long time ago)! I never really thought about it as insulting -- now I'm going to keep an eye out for it. Thanks for the consciousness-raising! :hi:

[Leilani]

113. As far as Chimp goes,

there is some hypocrisy there, but remember, he never claimed to be a war hero....Kerry did. He was warned not to make Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign, but he did it anyway.

Kerry campaigned on what he did 30+ years ago. Chimp was Prez when we were attacked, & we haven't been attacked since. That's not my reasoning, but that's how MANY people see it.

Another thing: most people who are decorated don't talk about it. Period. There's a modesty involved. The big joke out there was: John did you know I served in Vietnam Kerry? It was seen as bad taste, by people who had done so much more.

People also couldn't understand why he came back after 4 1/2 months. Sure it was allowed, but he requested it. Wes was carried off on a stretcher....that's when you leave. People saw that as leaving his comrades behind.

The anti-war testimony was the real crux of it though. We still had people in combat & as POWs. I heard many people say, At least Jane Fonda apologized. The POWs were incensed. I have a lot of info on that, if you're interested.

[liberalpragmatist]

119. Kerry should never have apologized for his antiwar testimony

I'm glad he stood his ground on that and moreover I wish he had explicitly spoken about it during the campaign.

You're right that he focused on his combat too much. I do wish, particularly at the convention, that he didn't focus so much on his Vietnam service. It should have been a backdrop and I fully supported ads that had Jim Rassmun telling how Kerry saved his life, etc.

As for the whole charge about leaving early, read this:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Horne, in a telephone interview, said the transfer request was allowed under then-existing naval instructions and was "above board and proper." Transfer was not automatic and was subject to approval by the Bureau of Naval Personnel, he said.

"I never once in any way thought my decision was wrong," Horne said. "To get three Purple Hearts and not be killed is awesome."

<snip>

Kerry's early departure meant that he was leaving behind a crew that had suffered through many bloody battles with him. Worried that crew members would be killed, he arranged for them to receive a safer assignment. When one crew member, Medeiros, tried to stay, Kerry "came and talked to me and said, `I really would like you to go. ... I'd like to know you are safe, or safer."'

Then, at the beginning of April 1969, Kerry left Vietnam. "I thought it was time to tell the story of what was happening over there," Kerry said. "I was angry about what happened over there, I had clearly concluded how wrong it was."

By this point, five of Kerry's closest friends had died in combat, including Yale classmate Richard Pershing. Then, just days after Kerry left, another friend, Donald Droz -- a fellow skipper who had provided support for Kerry on the day he won the Silver Star -- died in a fiery ambush. Droz had an infant daughter.

The mounting losses made no sense to Kerry. The boats went up a river, showed the US flag, perhaps killed some enemy, and returned to base without taking any territory. Six months earlier, Kerry had been a gung-ho skipper eager to lead his men and be a hero. Now he felt the mission had changed. He replaced his dream of a life in politics with a path of protest.

[Leilani]

132. I am neither approving nor disapproving of what he said or did

I am merely explaining how people FELT about it.

By using Vietnam as a basis of his campaign, many old wounds were reopened.

People on both sides still have very strong feelings, & they're not going to change them.

[clutchcargo]

125. Leilani----you are absolutely

correct about the war testimony. There are just some on our side that refuse to understand that he did not just protest the war. He called the men left over there baby murderers, rapist and more. What he did was viewed as far worst than Fonda! He was a returning soldier with comrades left behind and as unfortunate as it is he also fabricated, exaggerated and in some cases outright lied about what was going on. When he beat Gov. Dean in Iowa I Was sick!!!! I know more about Vietnam than I would care to share at this time.

[Sparkly]

128. Kerry did not lie

He stated what others said, and what they wanted him to represent to Congress. He said that these veterans had told of their experiences, and there is no question that such events took place. It was not the focus of the testimony; the purpose was never to accuse or malign veterans or soldiers; he never used the words "baby murderers;" he never claimed it representative of all Vietnam vets.

I understand that this was controversial, especially as twisted out of context by the Swift Liars. Let's keep the facts straight, though.

[Leilani]

131. Sparkly, that's sort of a nuanced view of looking at it

I'm just telling you how people felt.

Bud Day, a heroic POW, one of the most highly decorated vets EVER, campaigned around the country against Kerry. Their view was that they were tortured for years & years trying to get them to admit that they were war criminals.

For them, a Naval Officer, returning home, & giving the testimony he gave, was a betrayal. Also, the fact that he met with the Vietnamese in Paris.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong; I'm saying that's their view & they're entitled to it.

You said you didn't understand certain people's beliefs, & I was trying to explain it to you.

You can still disagree & think they're wrong. I think there's some truth on both sides.

Edited to add: Sparkly, I thought you were replying to me. I'm not making a value judgement on Kerry. I'm just trying to explain certain positions.

[Sparkly]

133. Understood, Leilani -- I was responding to that post, not yours

I know what you're saying. I know what some believed. But there's no way Kerry made up stories of atrocities, lied, or called vets "baby murderers."

Many other POWs knew that their captors were tormenting them for the sake of tormenting them -- there was no information on war crimes they needed from them in order to beat them. Does anybody believe the VC had no idea what was going on under their noses, involving their own fighters, until they picked up a New York Times and read about John Kerry?

But as I said, I understand the misunderstanding or controversy, and I know how it was exploited. What I won't accept are claims on DU that Kerry lied about atrocities occurring in Vietnam. It's been shown over and again that they happened, and it's clear that VVAW was never about maligning the veterans for it.

[liberalpragmatist]

134. He never maligned the troops

Sometimes you need to call out atrocities. Kerry never said that all Vietnam veterans were war criminals. What he did was list specific examples of atrocities that other veterans had told him. Such things really did occur - and they always occur in wartime. He also stated that US military policy there was immoral, such as the use of free-fire zones. He acknowledged having taken part in free-fire zones and blamed the military generals for this policy, not the individual soldiers, who were just following orders.

[Leilani]

169. I don't associate myself with your remarks.

EOM

[janx]

78. Absolutely! This political provincialism and bigotry often

come from the parties/candidates themselves. In an effort to appeal to a certain region or group of states, they use these stereotypes and prejudices.

I love the South--especially southern writers!

[Sparkly]

79. Could you give an example of that? n/t

[janx]

90. Every time a candidates or their supporters assert that a candidate

will appeal to a certain geographical consituency, you've got an example of it. The prime example, of course, is Chimpy himself.

The religious right used it in epic proportions. Many politicians use it. It's not healthy. We don't live in some isolated backwaters; we live as a nation of states.

It seems to me that we should be looking at politicians who appeal to Americans not because of where they come from (the "us versus them" mentality), but because of what their vision is for all of us.

[Sparkly]

92. But doesn't that work to the south's favor?

The prevailing wisdom is that we have to have southern candidates, because northern candidates don't appeal to southerners (but we northerners are willing to vote for southerners).

I keep reading that we in the north don't understand southern culture, insult southerners, etc., so it's our fault Democrats lose the south, and it's worse when we run a northern candidate. No? I'm confused.

I agree there shouldn't be any 'us vs. them' or regional divide at all. But apparently there is.

[janx]

100. The prevailing wisdom is wrong. That's DLC "wisdom," if you

ask me, and I think that's what Grif was trying to say (though I can't speak for him/her).

We MUST get away from that. Our country just isn't like that anymore, thank God.

Let's look at what happened in the last election. Some people like to say that Kerry didn't carry much in the South because he was from Massachusetts. But that's not what happened. After all, he had Edwards right there with him, didn't he? The reason Kerry didn't connect there was the same reason he didn't connect in other places: he just didn't connect. I have a feeling it was more of a problem with a somewhat patrician image more than a regional one; Grif cited other reasons. And Edwards? Well, what did Edwards do when Dean made those comments about guys in pickup trucks with confederate flag decals needing the same kinds of things as other Americans? He pounced. He pounced and used stereotypical language reminiscent of George Wallace..."We don't need northerners coming down here telling Southerners what to do..."

MISTAKE. He was playing the provincial card. If I had been from the South, I would have been mad as hell over that remark--much angrier than anything Dean had said. (And I really like John Edwards, by the way. But it was a big mistake.)

We're not stuck in some provincial time warp. That's where the "prevailing wisdom" fails to be wise.

[clutchcargo]

105. I know many like JOHN EDWARDS---BUT

wHY? as SOON AS HE WAS ELECTED TO THE SENATE FROM nc HE STARTED RUNNING FOR pRESIDENT. Many Democrats in NC feel he let us down by promoting himself and not looking our for the people who elected him to the senate. p\s sorry for the caps thing---confused

[janx]

109. I can't blame you. And everyone keeps talking about Obama's

running for national office now. Would he do that to the people of Illinois? I hope not.

[Digit]

146. But once NC saw that John Edwards was becoming popular w/the masses...

He became their hometown boy.

[Leilani]

170. If that's so,

why didn't he help the ticket more in N.C.?

I heard Bush won his home county. Is that true?

[clutchcargo]

91. TO JANX---------IF YOU LOVE

southern writers I have one you may not have read. Ferrol Sams. Read WHISPER OF THE RIVER and RUNS WITH THE HORSMEN. You will most likely enjoy them.

[janx]

97. Thank you! I'll check into Sams!

[TNDemo]

48. The message is very clear on DU.

How many southern bashing threads are on here? Probably the most recurring theme here. When thread after thread is titled "let's dump the south" or "should we dump the south" it's kinda hard not to take it personally. While the southern states did not deliver 50%, they had a good sized percentage of blue votes. It makes us feel like our time and effort is completely wasted and unappreciated by the rest of the country and that everyone in the blue states hates us. We are labeled as ignorant racist rednecks when we are anything but. I wanted to be part of the democratic party because it was the big umbrella party and everyone was welcome but sometimes I feel like I have to beg to be a democrat here.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

57. And GOD FORBID one of my church-going, moderate brothers should

stumble on this site.

Snake handler!

Bigot!

Ignoramus!

Racist!

Magical thinker!

Fuck the South!

Sigh.

[Sparkly]

73. I understand that's got to be frustrating.

I imagine I'd feel alone in a Republican community, and then alone among Democrats on forums like DU if I sensed they resented my region.

As my husband has often said, the plains/central areas were at *least* as red than the south, and nobody's saying "fuck the plains," so I think this is a different cultural divide. The maps show clear blocks of "blue" throughout the south, including both sides of the Mississippi river. (In fact, I'm wondering if it has more correlation with population density than anything else -- urban centers tend to go blue, rural areas go red.)

There is a stereotype of a "racist redneck" -- they exist, they're despicable, but they also exist in places like Maryland and Connecticut. I think we have some consciousness-raising to do to get over the north-south stereotypes and assumptions. And I think many find it difficult to accept that while we'll vote for southerners, the south is less willing, for whatever reason, to accept a northern candidate. It's frustrating that we can't get over the hurdle and win back a southern state or two, but I really don't think anybody here is angry at people like you. That would *really* be counter-productive! :hi:

[TNDemo]

98. As they say, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I do understand that most people are intelligent enough to understand that not everyone in California thinks just alike and people in New York do not think as a bloc and in the south there are all kinds also. TV has never helped lessen the stereotypes either - if you want a character to be stupid you give them a southern accent. Just a little affirmation occasionally would be nice - a thanks and way-to-go-even-if-it-didn't-work-out for all the many, many people who labored and worked very hard to get a Democrat elected. On November 3 DU was chock full of very hate filled posts venting their anger on the south. You are so right about their not being "dump the midwest" or "dump the plains" threads, which I have brought up before.

It is a legitimate question about why there is reluctance for the south to support a northern candidate. I think many southerners suspect that while a northerner may campaign here (occasionally) that privately he feels contempt for us. I don't think it is an over-inflated sense of pride that makes southerners resist "outsiders" but more a reflexive defensive posture (I'll get you before you get me). I think Kerry could have run a better campaign here and elsewhere if he could have articulated his plan and vision for the country more clearly. I think he focused on Vietnam and just the fact that he was Not Bush too much. I think he should have had a really clear and concise plan for Iraq and an exit strategy. He may actually have had these things but he did not communicate them well and I think that was his problem across the whole country.

As for me, I am a blue county in a red state. At least I am in good company in my county.

[XemaSab]

103. Fuck the plains

n/t

[Yupster]

148. An example of disrespect is

going after the Boy Scouts.

A lot of people can't understand the funding mechanisms for medicare budgeting, but they can sure understand that anyone going after the Boy Scouts is bad. That's not something that is to be argued. Things like that are deal-breakers. You won't even be listened too any more once you take a position on a social issue like that. It's the end of your campaign in rurl and suburban areas.

Just minor issues like that are deadly because it disrespects their lifestyles anbd traditions.

And it puts southern Democratic candidates in impossible positions.

[Sparkly]

152. The boy scouts is a southern tradition?

I never thought of them as southern in particular. We sure had them in Connecticut. I think the concept started in England and the American version began in Chicago, no?

And my understanding is that people are "going after" discrimination in the organization, not going after the boys... I don't understand why anything should become so protected with "apple pie" and "American tradition" that it gains a layer of safety for abuse or discrimination. That goes for everything -- schools, churches, the military, everything -- including the boy scouts.

Is there something "southern" here?

[sasquatch]

36. *sigh*

"They get up in the morning, feed their kids breakfest, go to work, come home and feed them dinner, watch tv, go to bed and do it all over again"
Gee, well us northerners get up in the morning feed our kids dinner, tell our boss to go fuck himself, do a bong hit, then feed the kids breakfest, shoot the tv, have wild anal sex in the bed, then wipe our asses with a confederate flag after having anal sex, then we shoot some herion and talk about either the new "briar"(Ohio slang for southerner) joke we heard or how we can our kids as drug mules.
(sarcasm)
:eyes:

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

41. No, Northerners have illegal gay weddings (and I am TOTALLY in favor

of changing laws so that gay weddings are legal EVERYWHERE), sue and win to have "under God" taken out of the pledge, and refuse to allow children to study the Declaration of Independence in SCHOOL.

That kind of activism is the kind of thing that doesn't happen here. That's what I'm talking about - and furthermore, you KNOW that.

You're just enjoying having a chance to spout regional bigotry. Fine. Who needs to win elections anyway?

[sasquatch]

47. Where's the movement to not allow kids to read the Declaration?

I've never heard of this bullshit before(When I say bullshit I'm not saying what you say is bullshit just that a movement like that is bullshit).

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

51. here's one link

"A fifth-grade teacher at a San Francisco area elementary school has found himself at the center of a firestorm with his principal and the school district over the Declaration of Independence.

Steven Williams, a teacher at Stevens Creek School, filed a lawsuit on Monday in U.S. District Court in San Jose and claims violations of his right to free speech under the First Amendment.

Williams has been barred from giving out copies of the Declaration of Independence to his students by the school's principal, Patricia Vidmar, because it refers to God. Principal Vidmar has also required that Mr. Williams clear all his lessons first with her.

This has led to other materials that refer to God or Christianity being rejected, such as George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists," and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."

I couldn't quickly find any non-conservative news sources who covered the story, sorry.

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/newswire/news2004/1104/112504-doi-banned.htm

[sasquatch]

58. Are you sure they didn't just make this story up

Like they did when Bush's prescription health care plan came out?

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

67. Nope. I have a hard time finding links, but I saw it on several news

shows on TV, including msnbc.

[clutchcargo]

84. So did I

[Sparkly]

89. Whoa, hold on there!!

There's another side to that story. Men's News Daily, as I'm sure you know, won't tell both sides.

Here's one digest with links:
http://www.eriposte.com/philosophy/fundamentalism/stevenscreek.htm

There's a link to the assignment here:
http://www.eriposte.com/philosophy/fundamentalism/stevenscreek.htm#2_4_1

As for removing "under God" from the pledge, I'm not sure that's part of any Democrat's platform (remember the fuss Pelosi made over that?), but I wouldn't object if it were. Some even think the pledge itself should go. I don't see how it's a south/north issue, though or why southerners would take personal offense at a difference of opinion about it.

(Edited to take out the assignment in jpeg, which took up a huge amount of space!)

[housewolf]

107. Not about "giving out copies of the Declaration of Independence"

I believe the story that echoed through the conservative communications machine is a distortion of the facts. The issue at Stevens Creek School was never about giving out copies of the Declaration of Independence but about supplemental materials the teacher brought in.

Here's some local coverage of the issue from the San Jose Mercury News:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/the_valley/10365917.htm?1c

>snip

``The district has not violated anyone's constitutional rights. Media coverage regarding the lawsuit has substantially mischaracterized the content of the Cupertino Union School District's curriculum. It has incorrectly been reported that the district has banned the teaching of the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. In reality, no such ban exists.''

Lorence said he believes the district was responding to a single parent's complaint. Williams, he said, has been teaching colonial history with the same materials for seven years without incident. Last year, a parent complained when Williams brought religious-based materials to elaborate on a class discussion about the inclusion of ``under God'' in the Pledge of Allegiance. After that, all of Williams' teaching materials came under scrutiny by Vidmar, the lawyer said.

more....

[Cobalt Violet]

62. I second that.

What a load of crap! Something southerners cooked up to further their bigotry of us.

[Hippo_Tron]

63. Religion is ESSENTIAL to a history class...

To the extent and only to the extent that it is taught in a HISTORICAL context. When the teacher teaches his kids the declaration of Independence they need to be taught exactly WHY the founders chose language that includes God in it and they need to be taught that they can agree or disagree with that decission.

Besides, the Declaration of Independence is "rebel against your government" 101. I guarantee you that we would have far fewer political activists if the Declaration were not taught in schools.

[LeftyMom]

80. Errr, he won?

Besides, the guy's from Elk Grove, CA. Even if you buy into the "northern=anyplace that didn't secede" idea, Elk Grove is a farm town turned bedroom community full of people who moved out of the city to avoid all the minorities. Mega chuches and big box stores galore. Southerners and red-state midwesterners would be right at home out there, once they got used to the high home prices and the fenced in back yards.

[jarab]

44. That's a damn good post! eom

...O...

[Cobalt Violet]

54. Massachusetts is not a "lily- white" state.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

65. compared to who?

37%
The estimated proportion of Mississippi’s population that was black as of July 1, 2002, the highest percentage of any state in the nation. Louisiana (33%), South Carolina (30%), Georgia and Maryland (29 %), and Alabama (27%) followed. The District of Columbia, classified as a state equivalent by the Census Bureau, has a population that is 61% black.


Black or African-American Population for the United States by Region, 2002
Area Percent of
black population Percent of
total population
United States 100.0% 12.7%
Region
Northeast 18.1 12.2
Midwest 18.1% 10.2%
South 55.3 19.8
West 8.6 4.8



http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884133.html

[Cobalt Violet]

68. Oh I get it . Blacks are the only non-whites.

[Ms_Mary]

59. That's a pretty good analysis. nt

[Cobalt Violet]

69. delete

[Ms_Mary]

72. Excuse me, but are you talking to me? And what are you talking about?

[Cobalt Violet]

74. Sorry I read it wrong. n/t

[Ms_Mary]

77. OK, LOL. I was perplexed.

[QC]

93. Excellent post! I hope those who need to read it will do so. n/t

[Leilani]

104. Wonderful, wonderful post!

You've captured it, & all DUers should read your remarks.

[XemaSab]

110. Northern Liberals?

"Northern liberals regularly make the news for things like disallowing the Declaration of Independence in schools because it mentions God, a mayor who flouts the law to turn downtown into gay wedding central, and attempting to remove "under God" from the pledge."

All these happened in California.

I know you've defined "northerner" as anyone not from the South, but I'm of the opinion that California is neither northern or southern.

There's huge parts of the state that are red. We've got synagogue-burning racists and some of the most conservative congressmen anywhere (like Herger and Radanovich). We didn't have slavery here because the mine owners had a good thing going with the "chinamen," not because we were a bunch of northern bleeding-hearts. We've seen genocide and xenophobia as bad as anything else in the rest of the country.

We've also got some of the most liberal areas in the country, like the Bay Area and Los Angeles, but Big Agriculture in the interior of the state runs the show. We've elected Reagan and Ahnold as governors.

All this is my way of saying we're really not all left wingers out here. It's unfair to taint the good Yankee folks with these negative atheist stereotypes.

[thoughtanarchist]

111. could you post...

some examples of this "intollerable condensation"?

I hear this point from time to time but never actually heard nor read any actual sermon or lecture of this ilk directed at anyone.

Can you provide a link or something?

[TheDonkey]

140. I always forget how great the south is.

It is always nice to be lectured by the South how much they hate being lectured by the North. Too bad people in the North aren't wholesome and hardworking Americans and can't accept people with different accents.

[Virginian]

175. "and can't accept people with different accents." & other thoughts.

When I moved from Southside Virginia to Northern Virginia in 1963, my Step-father advised me to lose the accent. "People tend to think you are stupid if you have a southern accent."

I look at how the South is portrayed in film and television. I could not stand to watch the Dukes of Hazzard, it showed us to be law avoiding sex starved, moonshining idiots.

Jokes about cousins marrying in the South doesn't help any either. (Wasn't Rudy Gulliani's first wife his second cousin?)

My husband said the other day that he would like to start going to church again but not "all the time." I think he was afraid to be grouped in with the Fundies if he became involved in his faith.

We may be in a red state, but we are in a blue county and a very blue precinct.

Edited for date.

[Slickriddles]

167. I don't mean this to be a flame

but have you ever been to Boston? Nothing lily-white about that town or many others in Massachusetts. I'll give you Vermont as a mostly white state but there are so many African Americans and Hispanics and Asians and other minority groups in the North that I for one coming from NY find your characterization of the North as lily-white just silly

[QC]

180. Yet Boston is the only major city in the US never to elect a black mayor.

I wonder why that is?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

184. Cambridge (across the river) had a black gay mayor for years

The Boston City Council and School Committee are more than half minority.

[QC]

188. Cambridge isn't Boston, now is it? n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

190. But it's Massachusetts; I know how much you Yankee haters

like to paint us as racists but we don't like to elect racist crackers here. Boston is pretty damn diverse. Have you ever lived here? Didn't think so. :eyes:

[QC]

192. Resorting to personal attacks now, are we?

There's no surer sign that someone has nothing intelligent to say.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

194. Well, you come across as a person who doesn't like the North

and Massachusetts in particular. That is not a personal attack. And I have never been accuseed of being unintelligent-that's just laughable.

Have you lived in Boston? In Massachusetts? In New England? Why do you refuse to answer these quesions? Because they'd make your lame arguments even lamer?

[QC]

198. self-delete

[sasquatch]

8. I'll help you out

Look up serpeant handling religions in your Library. That will explain Republican Appalachian constituents.

[Syrinx]

26. yeah, that's it (/sarcasm)

There are about 2,000 of those weirdos, tops.

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Snakes.html

[yardwork]

28. and they are equally prevalent in midwestern northern states

[clutchcargo]

88. I Think that Snake Handlers are another

GOOD REASON why cousins should not marry.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

40. what horseshit.

In 34 years of living and traveling throughout the South, I've met exactly ZERO snake-handlers.

This bigotry is one reason why our party is dead. We will never win as long as we continue to write off 1/3 of the country.

[sasquatch]

50. Our party is dead because it doesn't fight back and are scared of...

offending southerners, I am not. John Kerry lost the election because he didn't want to run attack ads against Bush which discourage the southern fundamentlaist from voting. If the republicans want divide the country fine we'll divide it then and bash it out again.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

56. Your strategy of offending Southerners is working really well for us.

That's why we have seen an increase in House seats, Senate seats, Governorships, state legislatures, and own the White House and the Supreme Court.

Let's keep this strategy up! It's working great! :thumbsup:

[sasquatch]

81. You're not listening to what I say

We lose because we don't fight back when we campaign, besides I've never heard a Dem candidate belittle southerners like I do or anyone else on this board for that matter. Republicans have used resurgent confederate nationalism like Hitler used German nationalism(which is strange because he's an Austrian) to rally Christian fundamentalism, sourthern racism(which is worse than northern racism weather you want to admit it or not) and anti-intellectualism behind a single focus point. Because we don't rally northern and western culture behind our cause and fight against their's is why we lose. John Kerry lost the election because it would'nt be "polite" to bash Bush for his mistakes or to have an actual debate with Bush instead of a question and answer meeting.

[clutchcargo]

117. WHAT in the Hell are you

talking about with this resurgent confederate nationalism. Are you in another country somewhere? Please explain yourself---I must have missed the meeting announcements!

[Syrinx]

60. please take a look at the county-by-county electoral map

[Leilani]

121. Where's Hawaii & Alaska?

NT

[TaleWgnDg]

178. Your red-blue USA map is a gross misrepresentation

Your red-blue USA map is a gross misrepresentation of the total number of votes each presidential candidate received between Bush and Kerry. Your map demonstrates geographic area not the number of votes cast proportionately. In your map it looks as if Bush won by somewhere around 95% of the votes cast instead of the 51% Bush (versus Kerry's 49%) received. And that's the flaw in your map.

Here's a representative red-blue map which depicts the number of Bush's red votes cast versus the number of Kerry's blue votes cast. Bush won in the lesser populated states (which are larger geographic areas). Kerry won in densely populated areas (which are smaller geographic areas). We are not interested in geographic areas (as in your map).

Instead, we are interested in a proportionate demonstration of the votes received by each candidate. In this way, we see an accurate depiction of the 51% Bush (red) and 49% Kerry (blue) votes across America.


Here is the map by state:

. . . . . . . . . .

Here is the map by county:

. . . . . . . . . . .


.

[Ms_Mary]

70. I once studied it in Appalachian history. I've heard of speaking

in tongues here, though mostly in old revival stories, but never of snake handling around here. I think the group we studied handling snakes was in deep Kentucky.

[Ms_Mary]

75. Does that actually happen anymore? I haven't heard of it in the last

several decades. When I studied it in history, I think the documentary was from the 50's.

[sasquatch]

85. I read a book about it that documented cases right up to it's publishing

Mike Malloy did a story about it in the 90's I believe.

[Ms_Mary]

87. What areas of the US?

[sasquatch]

Anywhere in Appalachia

[Ms_Mary]

181. No, not just anywhere! LOL. Somewhere, maybe. Appalachia covers a big area

and several states. I live in Appalachia and there is NO snake handling anywhere near here, I can assure you!

[QC]

96. Look for a book called Salvation on Sand Mountain.

Author is Dennis Covington. You will find it very interesting, and much more informative than the posts of our resident south-haters.

[clutchcargo]

118. What is this book about

I love to read

[QC]

122. Well, the author begins attending snake-handling meetings,

in hopes, apparently, of coming up with a good story about the weirdos. Instead, he comes to understand these people and consequently to respect them. It's non-fiction, by the way, and a much needed account of a group of people hardly anyone knows anything about.

[hollowdweller]

179. There's a snake handling church still in Jolo WV McDowell Co is one of the

most impoverished counties in WV

[SharonAnn]

156. Yes, it still happens around here. A preacher died last year from

snake bite.

Usually it's in the more remote, rural areas of Appalachia.

[quaoar]

166. I haven't encountered the snake handlers myself

but I have been to Pentecostal services where people spoke in tongues and the old tradition of eating dirt still lives on here in Alabama.

[Ron Green]

9. There was a big shift to the Republican party after the 1964 Civil Rights

legisatation. White racist southerners who had always been Democrats since the War Between the States now had to shift their allegiance to continue the Jim Crow rules. People like John Tower in Texas and Trent Lott in MS stepped in to fill the gap.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Hello, Chicago!

I'm from Downstate, but I've lived in Arkansas for the last decade or so. The South has always been powerful in American politics-check out the number of Southerners who were President before the Civil War. The South became powerful again after the election of Jimmy Carter, though it was definately a factor in politics before then. I think Southern power comes from the fact that their Senators and Congressmen tend to be re-elected and entrenched in Washington. And so they have a greater say in things, and, in the Southern tradition, are quite eloquent in the way they say it. Another reason the South is a power force now is a shift in population, as more people move to warmer climates-snowbirds are the main factor in making FL one of the more populous states. Low taxes are also a lure.

Once the South was solidly Democratic. No one would vote for the 'party of Lincoln' until GOP leaders started courting the racist vote after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed under Lyndon Johnson. You saw long time Democrats like Strom Thurmond jump parties as it became obvious that the GOP was welcoming those who liked 'tradition'-read that anti-Civil Rights. There were still many progressive Democrats in the South, but their message was slowly drowned out by the message of hate of the GOP, coupled with the promise of lower taxes (never fulfilled, but who pays attention to that?) and NRA propaganda. And for the last decade or so, the Christian right has been beaming garbage about Dems into the homes of anyone listening to their radio/TV stations.

[MacCovern]

14. Lyndon Johnson knew it would happen

Part of this goes back to the 1960's when Civil Rights legislation was passed. Lyndon Johnson did the right thing, but he knew he was handing the South over to the Republicans eventually.

I am from Pittsburgh originally, but have lived in Atlanta a very long time. One of the things I noticed a long time ago was that many southerners were still voting for Dems out of long standing family loyalty from generations ago, but in the last 10 years they have been increasingly influenced by their religious beliefs, and the perceived "family values" of the Repugs.

Another influence in Atlanta over the last 30 years is that it has become a big big corporate town. Many Fortune 500 companies call Atlanta home, and many other have regional headquarters here. Even Porsche has their North American headquarters one mile from where I live. These corporate jobs attract political conservatives to move here from many other parts of the country. The city of Atlanta is still Democratic, but the surrounding area (which has a population of over 3.5 million) is now very conservative.

10 years ago, in Georgia, the Dems controlled the state House and Senate, had the Governership since the 1800's, and often went with the Democratic candidate for President. Now, the Repugs hold the governership, have a stranglehold on state politics, and the 2004 Presidential vote in GA was not even a contest.

[yardwork]

16. The suburbs of Atlanta are nothing but strip shopping centers

full of multi-national brand stores - all of which give heavily to Republicans. Home Depot - Bush Ranger - is based there.

Atlantan suburbanites are immersed in a "culture" that is completely controlled by the corporatist right.

[Hippo_Tron]

71. You guys went from Dem to Republican in a span of 4 years

In 2000 you guys had 2 dem senators (Zell wasn't a complete DINO back then), a Dem governor, and I think both dem state legislatures. Now you guys have 2 Repuke senators a Repuke governor, and Repukes that control the state legislature. I'm VERY worried that Louisiana will be next.

[chomskysright]

19. Cathy Diebold Cox: the GA SOS manipulator....

the south is being manipulated more, these days. Cathy Diebold Cox, whose name needs to stick on her like shine on a bad suit, is the Secreatary of State in GA. Her counsin, Ann Cox chambers, owns the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, know here as the Urinal and Constipation.

Guess what kind of coverage we get re: 'radical' items?

It gets thicker: Cathy Diebold Cox is a Dem; however she functions like a Repubug, just like zig zag zell.

She rammed down the throat of all GA counties Diebold counting machines.

In 2002, the governor's and senator's race was stolen away from Max Cleland (D) and Roy Barnes (D). We now have chicken man for governor: Sonny Perdue who is widely acclaimed to be an idiot.

I figure that Cathy Diebold Cox is manipulating the system in order to pull her self in.

For all the voting dirt in the world re: GA: go to:
> >http://www.countthevote.org/debacle.htm - a good
> >history of 2002 in Georgia

[yardwork]

27. Someone should forward this entire thread to the Democratic leadership

This thread, in the responses it contains so far, touches on a lot of important elements, including culture, misperceptions, old hurts and resentments, control of the media, influence of corporations, manipulation of religion, tampering with votes, complexity of race relations - the whole gamut of reasons why the Democrats have lost the south and much of the midwest.

It's very very important. I hope somebody pays attention.

[Ron Green]

Maybe there's an issue that cuts across both race & religion in the South.

And that's tribalism. When I grew up in the South, whites and blacks were clearly different groups, with blacks kept completely out of the public sphere (although many white families, not just wealthy ones, had black people working in the household). After the '60s, as blacks gained visibility and control in the public arena, the still-dominant white culture had to shift away from blatant racism, which after all had become embarrassing in its childishness, and find another way to be a "tribe." Yankees had always been a convenient enemy, but as even they moved south in droves in the '70s and '80s, the Southern dominant culture still neede an "other" against which to define itself. Non-believers, I believe, are the new enemy tribe, although perhaps any sort of activity outside the approved flag-waving corporate line is starting to gel into the "other tribe."

[sasquatch]

42. Unfortunatly there is an issue like that: Gay Marraige

And they're both against it.

[tsuki]

29. First, the south votes as a block. Look at it.

Answers:

1) Surprisingly, the answer to your question is air-conditioning. I remember when we were not. Florida had 10 electors. (http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/votes/1953_1957.html) We now have 27. People moved here displacing local citizens. It was no longer a "winter" home. It could be year round.

Castro. The Florida panhandle relies on the Federal government for 34% of the economy. We have a disproportional number of military bases, stations and air fields. Close Loring, move 'em to Florida. Etc. We have a large military retiree base.

Native Floridian are being displaced by developers who gobble up homesteads and subdivide for gated communities so rich, moral, family values Republicans can retire into a place that does not allow grandchildren to visit.

2) The only natives that I ever see is at the Democratic meetings. Plus, southerners are basically anti-guvment, paygo. At the meetings, the Democratic party cared little for gay rights, pro-choice, social issues that they think the guvment shouldn't be in anyway. Live and let live. The budget, the deficit, the war, the rich tax breaks, tax the unborn...big time issues.

The retirees (military) love George's "kick ass." Curiously, they forgave Dubya's sadistic yellow streak and focused on Kerry's Anti Viet-Nam stance. They'd pull old Col. Bud Day out to every Democratic meeting to disrupt it.

[clutchcargo]

34. Southern Politics

For better or worse people in the South tend to be more conservative. However we do elect Democrats. In NC we have a Democrat as Gov.and Council of State yet we have two Repubs as US Senators. How do you figure the South is Disproportionately powerful.

[chicagojoe]

182. I guess what I'm getting at is this: A Trent Lott has too much power...

...seeing as he's ONLY from Mississippi.
What's more important to the Nation. A Mississippi, or an Illinois ?

[yellowdogintexas]

37. the balance of electoral votes shifted as population grew in

the South ...in addition to all the other things cited here.

I read somewhere that Massachusetts,Illinois, New York, Michigan and Pennsylvania all lost enough E votes to Florida, Georgia and Texas to swing the election even allowing for the increase experienced by California.

The article implied that all things being the same in voter turnout and choice, without those electoral changes resulting from population shift,
we would be re inaugurating Al Gore ...

[yardwork]

39. True, and the south is also experiencing a huge inmigration of Latinos

which Democrats can't afford to lose as supporters. Most Latino immigrants are Catholics. Republicans made an enormous push to win over Catholic voters this time - and succeeded.

Republicans are using market analysis very effectively against Democrats, and they don't hesitate to lie about our candidates. The Sunday before election day a lot of priests told their flocks that Kerry was a baby-killer. The Republicans will use anything, manipulate anything, to cheat people into voting Republican.

WE NEED TO EXPOSE THE REPUBLICAN LIES.

[Prodemsouth]

53. Btw I saw a "latino" (they don't mind being called Mexican unless they

are not) with a confederate flag on the back of his pick up. No joke; this morning!! Many of the latino guys' drive pick up trucks too.

[tsuki]

66. Don't get me started on the American Bishops. I haven't been to

Mass since I found out they manipulated the Pope's message to us.

And I hope that Bushco reneigns on his promises to them. And that juries hang them out to dry.

Sorry for the rant. I just miss the Nuns and their message of social justice.

[bobbieinok]

153. also many Latinos, recent immigrants and ones here a long time, are

being heavily targeted by religious right pentecostals....once/if they convert and become/are citizens they get the message that the republican party is the only 'christian' party....

this targetting and politicizing is very clear in Tulsa.....pentecostals are giving English lessons in the church, helping parents buy school supplies, etc

....all very helpful things: goal is conversion and the politization

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

76. I'm going back to bed....

...just announcing this since I've been making an effort to reply to all my replies.

I will sum up what I have to say with this: could we possibly be doing any worse? We've lost the White House, the House, the Senate, the majority of the governorships, the state legislatures, and the Supreme Court. It would seem that at least trying a new strategy would be a good idea -- what's the worst that could happen? We'd lose? We are already professional election-losers.

I hate it. It frustrates me to the point where I'm taking Tagamet at age 34, for the love of Christ. But it's true.

[Ron Green]

82. I didn't mean to offend you, Gryffindor. I am a Southerner, much older

than you, who has seen (and done) lots of bad stuff and has had to grow out of it over a long painful time. God bless you for your politics and your attitude. Keep fighting the good fight.

[clutchcargo]

99. GRYFFINDOR_BOOKWORM Take care of

yourself. Our party needs every voice of reason we can get. We have a long way to go before we are the majority again. However, on a brighter note Bush will probably be so bad in the next four years that we will have a Democratic sweep much like the repubs did to us in 1994. SLEEP WELL

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pepperbelly]

116. Democrats DO win in the South. We have two Democratic Senators in

Arkansas.

We've had only one Republican Senator that I can remember and he lasted exactly one term. There are ways to win in the South and none of them have to do with ideological stances.

For starters, one of my personal heros, Senator Dale Bumpers, never lost an election in Arkansas, an he toppled some titans ... Winthrop Rockefeller in Dale's first foray into state-wide politics and then William Fulbright, a legend in his own time. Dale is very liberal. He always has been. Yet he won time after time. And not a race passed where they didn't call him LIBERAL and even tied Ted Kennedy to him in several elections. And Dale always won.

It is a matter of tactics, not strategy. It was quite simple how he did it.

[Leilani]

172. Look at West Virginia.

Robert Byrd & Jay Rockefeller.

West Va. should be a blue state, nationally, same as Arkansas, with the right ticket & the right message.

[TheDonkey]

120. The elites of the sout (the voters) are disproportionately racist thugs

It's a real shame that in some southern states that AAs actually outnumber the white population but they just don't have the political, cultural, and economic power the white community has down there (by a lot!). Out of the white population there is a large active segment of strong religiously conservative, southern racism, and rural fear.

[QC]

123. Why is central Pennsylvania so incredibly red?

I used to live there, by the way, and I have to say that it was the most backward, reactionary, and yes, racist, place I have ever lived, and that includes the places where I have spent time in Alabama, Mississippi, and Florida.

And could you please name one of those states that has an African-American majority? I've never heard about that before, and i find it intriguing.

[TheDonkey]

135. Good question I live in Central PA now

and it's dark red for the reasons I mentioned about the South except rather than having large pockets of African Americans that don't vote... there are just no African Americans.

Mississippi, and Alabama have very large black populations at one time being the majority. Not sure if it is still that case, but fue to legal and illegal blocks they have never been able to effectively correct the political atmoshpere in the south.

I see there is some "southern pride" in this thread because people are getting defensive. No way do I think everyone in the south is bad but you can tell there is a clear cultural difference by their lopsided love for republicans versus the pacific and north.

[quaoar]

168. Mississippi is about one third black

And it has the highest number of blacks elected to public office.

[Pepperbelly]

124. Upon what experience do you base this?

I mean ... what leads you to this opinion?

[janx]

127. It's about time you showed up!

:hi:

I wish I could find your quote about losing senators as chicken stealing dogs; it would be perfect for this thread! :hug:

[Pepperbelly]

143. hiya

:hi:

[TheDonkey]

136. electoral trends, polls, personal experience etc.

I failed to mention that the wedge issue of gay rights is a major component why the South is so red. There is definetly somethign peculiar if you can have a candidate say that gay people and single moms should not teach, and then win an election. This only could occur in the south or other rural states of the west in my opinoin, due to the bigotry and rural fear.

[QC]

138. Remind me, where is Rick Santorum from again?

Wherever it is, they keep electing him.

[TheDonkey]

139. See: Central PA

[Pepperbelly]

142. and how is it that Arkansas has two Democratic Senators while ...

Pennsylvania has two gop?

[TheDonkey]

157. Because Central PA

I thought I mentioned that. It's as backwards many areas in the South. If you energize the fears and bigotry of a state you can elect (R)s believe me. It's only when eastern PA is energized does PA elect a Democratic Gov & Pres (both times mind you).

[Pepperbelly]

160. so perhaps it doesn't have shit to do with geography.

Neither geography nor history had anything to do with the 04 election.

[ArkySue]

159. Ark is VERY Dem!

We have 2 Dem Senators, 3 of 4 Dem Representatives. State Legislature (from 2001): Senate 27 Dems and 8 Repukes, House 70 Dems and 30 Repukes. I do know that we had gains in the Legislature for the Dems this past election so those numbers are low. (unable to locate the stats I read earlier) The Arkansas Legislature is the 4th most Democratic state body in the country!
Some notable Arkansas Democrats: Bill Clinton, Wes Clark, J. William Fullbright, Dale Bumpers.

[Pepperbelly]

164. hiya!

:hi:

That's at least 3 of us in Central Arkansas.

[ArkySue]

162. Gay rights and the South

OK, the South is the Bible Belt. Many religious people, bible readers. I participated in a lot of GOTV and spoke with many older African-Americans who were definately going to vote for our Marriage Amendment (bans gay marriage). They were definately NOT going to vote for W. Don't think Gay issues helped W here. NRA and gun issues may have made a difference. You just wouldn't BELIEVE the crap that the NRA was putting in full page ads in the newspaper.

[Leilani]

173. If there's one issue I disagree with Dems about, it's guns.

I really wish they would be more libertarian about it. I think it would help a lot in rural areas.

[Syrinx]

129. Which states have majority black populations?

I'm not aware of any.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ArkySue]

161. And where do you live?

Do you live in the South? Where? Certainly not in my neck of the woods. If you don't live in the South...have you ever been there? When? Where? For how long? An answer to these questions would be SO helpful in ascertaining the validity of your opinions. thanks

[Lefty48197]

130. The rules in Congress were written to give more power to the south

The filibuster rules, the ability for Senators to object to any legislation were both written to give more power to the south, who were expected to be relatively impotent politically.
The rules about committee chairmanships and subcommittee chairs were written to give the south more power. More power because their reps tended to have more seniority due to the fact that their districts were largely uncontested.
All of this stuff is becoming less true as time passes, but the rules were written that way to help the south in a different time.

[Yupster]

147. They have disproportionate power because

they tend to vote as a bloc more than other regions of the country.

I don't think it's a conspiracy. They just mostly vote the same way so you have 1/3 of the country voting one eay. That side is most often going to win.

[Wiley50]

150. from TN: Can You Say Good Old Boy Network?

What we are discovering in places like Ohio is just the way it has always been down here.

[lynintenn]

165. lots of Dems get elected here

I'm in TN and we have a dem Gov. and 2 popular dem State Rep.
Its all about he message.

[deminflorida]

176. I'll Educate you just like Kerry was just Educated......

Don't fail to campaign in the capital city of Florida next Presidential Election.

Also hitting a few other southern capitals might not be a bad idea either.

You can possibly break the GOP lock on the south by campaigning in at least these five southern states...

FL, LA, AK, TN, VA

[LevelB]

185. Lord

I just read this whole thread.

I was born in Oklahoma, lived in southern California while I was growing up (height of Vietnam), and have lived in Georgia for the last 20 years. I even belong to that rarest of organizations - a liberal Southern Baptist church.

Gryffindor has a good grasp of the situation. I work with conservative republicans, and respect them (if not their politics). Like any group of people, they vary in a lot of ways, but I have seen some common themes. I think the republicans have successfully exploited several wedge issues, and have successfully painted democrats as wild-eyed lunatics.

A lot of people I talk to are concerned about gay marriage, gun control, a general lapse in "morals", and they are royally pissed off about 9/11.

I have had talks with some folks I know about gay marriage (it is no secret that I am a democrat). They (correctly) point out to me that the bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, and they find it hard to believe that someone who goes to church might not be opposed to outlawing this behavior. In turn, I point out to them that the bible teaches that a lot of things are sinful - including divorce. I then ask if they think it would be a good idea to have a constitutional amendment banning divorce, and make everybody return to their first spouse. I also ask them why (of all the sins discussed in the bible) is this particular sin being singled out? I then try to make the case that the republicans are trying to ban other peoples sins, while saying nothing about the laws that protect their own transgressions. This goes right to the heart of the parable Jesus taught about the woman who was to be stoned to death for adultery, which all Christians are familiar with.

It is also a talking point with folks that the Constitution is not to be changed on a whim.

I guess my point here is that for democrats to win more votes in the south, they need to counter these hypocritical attacks from the right directly.

I know it offends some people in these forums to discuss religion so openly, but there it is.

Oh, and one more thing. I am not wholly convinced that this is a north/south thing - I believe the divisions are more along the the urban/rural fault lines. And there are a lot of rural areas in the south and central plains.

B.

[Sparkly]

195. "make everybody return to their first spouse" -- haHA!!

That's a great point, B!! Probably enough to make most divorced people's hair stand on end (I should know).

I agree too that the "red/blue" divide seems to have alot to do with sparse/dense population. I don't know why the north/south divide is so heated.

On gay marriage, the Chimp claimed he was for civil unions, just like Kerry; on gun control, he claimed he was for renewal of the assault weapons ban, just like Kerry. So in practical stated terms, they were the same on those issues. Funny how different the perception was, and interesting that Chimp pretended to take Kerry's positions rather than v/v.

As for being "royally pissed off about 9/11," I think we can agree that nobody was MORE pissed off than those in target areas, especially those affected by it directly. I think there is a real sense of outrage in DC and NY that red state Bush-voters "saved us from ourselves" by giving him another term, when we'd have been much better off with Kerry in office. I don't know why anybody who cares isn't pissed off at Chimp for his failures and lies both before and after 9/11.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[LevelB]

197. Thanks for the welcome, Sparkly

You are correct, Bush's stated positions on gay marriage and assault weapons ban were not that different from Kerry.

But I think most folks down here do not know that he said that - or would believe that he meant it. I notice though that "political capital" does not seem to extend to either of these issues.

Another thing - FOX and talk radio relentlessly sell the notion that the "liberal elite" thinks everyone in these rural areas are a bunch of dopes who do not know what is best for themselves. The republicans have very successfully used this idea to their advantage. I believe that at least part of the point that Gryffindor was making earlier was that democrats must work hard to not let these goofballs have soundbites and quotes to reinforce that view.

As for 9/11 - TeamBush just sold a complete snowjob. Very similar to what happened to Max Cleland. The mess in Iraq makes me furious on many levels, not least because it keeps us from doing what needs to be done about Al Qaeda.

And speaking of snowjobs, just how does a Yale legacy student, a member of Skull & Bones that wears hand tailored suits manage to come across as a "good ol' boy"? That is absolutely the damndest thing I ever saw.

B.

[QC]

199. "I don't know why the north/south divide is so heated."

Good, old-fashioned scapegoating. It's a way for one group of people to assert their superiority to another one and absolve themselves of any responsibility for the world we find ourselves in.

[Forkboy]

202. Well,I never thought this thread would end up as a flame fest

:evilgrin: