Green Party's Cobb Says Kerry Is Thwarting Recount

[Tinoire]

Green Party's Cobb Says Kerry Is Thwarting Recount

The Raw Story/John Byrne | December 17 2004

In an exclusive interview with RAW STORY Friday, the Green Party’s presidential candidate David Cobb lashed out at Sen. John Kerry, saying he Democratic nominee has tried to “undermine,” “delegitimize” and “minimize” the Ohio recount.

(snip)

Meanwhile, Cobb observed, Kerry has not contributed “a single dime.”

“John Kerry is trying to minimize and undermine and delegitmize the recount,” Cobb asserted.

(snip)

Kerry, given the opportunity to exercise his right for a recount as a candidate that received a large percentage of the vote, declined to do so. As such, the Green Party and others raised $150,000 to pay Ohio to conduct the count.

(snip)

“They’ve issued periodic letters which have no meaning under law,” Cobb remarked.

Asked whether he had a theory on why Kerry conceded so quickly, he replied, “John Kerry definitely wanted to beat Bush, but as a member of a ruling elite, the one thing that John Kerry values over everything else is continued membership in the ruling elite.” “I think it’s shameful,” he added.

(snip)

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=502

[Cha]

1. That doesn't make sense...

Kerry and Edwards' lawyers added "vote tampering" to their lawsuit.

[Tinoire]

5. Zidzi

I honestly haven't been paying much attention to what Kerry is doing lately because he's finally put me to sleep for good. Can you bring me up to speed on your point? Can you also, if this isn't too much to sincerely ask, explain why you think it doesn't make sense? That's an honest question.

[Cha]

9. I know it's an "honest question".

I've been off the boards for about a month now and am just coming back to politics after a much needed hiatus.

I just saw the other day(Dec 15th) on DU where Kerry's and Edwards' lawyers along with Cobb's and Michael Badnarik's lawyers "added election tampering to a civil suit filed against the state of Ohio"..

I don't have the link ..I just copied the quote down on paper so I could tell my friend at yoga about it.

I know a lot of People have "given up on Kerry"..but I'm not ready to..and I hope he proves me right.

And from the quote I gave you ..it doesn't make sense that they would be trying to thwart the recount.

If I'm wrong..so be it. But it doesn't make sense to me.

[Tinoire]

15. Haha. You too?

I just came back last week.

Well for your sake, for many people's sake, I hope he proves you right too... I always hoped he would prove me wrong and for a brief, fleeting post-debate-on-a-joint moment, I felt he had but now I'm back to my old, cynical pre-Primary self. I'll be keeping an eye on this... If you see anything lket me know and vice versa.

Peace to you Zidzi

[Cha]

20. Thank you, Tinoire!

And Peace and Joy to you, too!:D

[madfloridian]

25. Tinoire and zidzi, I always thought our Democrats had a plan.

You know what I mean, one that was there in case. I am beginning to fear I was wrong. I hope I am not wrong, but I am losing confidence in it all.

Am I cynical? I don't know what I am.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. I've been pretty inactive on DU for a while.

The whole recount thing seems like such a futile, forlorn gesture that I just don't want to invest any emotional energy in it after all that Drip Drip stuff and all the dragonslayer stories that didn't pan out etc. etc. Somehow, though I certainly wish the best to all who are still pursuing this stuff, I just don't believe we're gonna see any dramatic reversals of the results. Yeah, the election was stolen. But it's most likely gonna stay stolen. We can quibble and point out all the statistical anomalies we want, but nobody beyond our tight little ring is gonna care. It's all over. Kerry didn't set the popular imagination on fire, and that's the only thing that would have made a real difference. America needs to make some huge changes in our thoughts, our spirit and our temper, and Kerry didn't do it. His policies were incrementalist, weak, unclear--I mean, really, did you like him on the war? Did you really like his health care plan? What were you REALLY WITH him on? I was always willing to believe that his political judgment was better than mine, that he knew what he was doing, that he was taking the positions he needed to have in order to win, that he understood and had a plan to counter the evil forces he was facing. I was wrong. He was just another DLC-tainted political hack.

Right now I'm putting most of my energy into the local political scene, trying to build something fresh and new. I'm working on plans to engage and revitalize the community around me. I don't have much time for worrying about Ohio.

And maybe not a lot of time for DU either, at least right now.

If anybody cares about the particular projects I'm trying to cook up, I'll respond to emails. I don't want to splash it all over this board.

[Tinoire]

38. Good luck to you!

You were a trooper during the Primaries and I really wish you luck. It's a bad day for the Democratic establishment when loyal Dems who gave them their all are this soured.

Can you give us a clue about the project so people know if they should PM you for more details or not?

Stay in touch and GOOD LUCK!

[Jackpine Radical]

52. I expect I'll be around some, just not so much.

As for my project, it consists of trying to get some of the more influential people (as Roper defines "the influentials") engaged and informed on local & state public policy issues as a way of "seeding" more adequate information into the community. My immediate target is consists of two largely rural state legislature districts.

[Tinoire]

59. Good luck with that!

I admire your determination to make that kind of a difference. It will definitely take work! I did that for a while and it wore me out (well was doing DU and work at the same time lol).

Take care and most of all GOOD LUCK!

[loyalsister]

51. I'm with you

"nobody beyond our tight little ring is gonna care."
"Kerry didn't set the popular imagination on fire.."
These are two related very important points. The reason for one is the other.
There are just not many people who think it would have been just absolutely AWESOME and AMAZING abnd life changing to have JK as president.
I'm sorry, but you can't stimulate interest in the possibility in fraud if people aren't interested in the outcome of the difference if it didn't happen. Widespread interest isn't going to happen. The MSM question of "how could this change history?" may ultimately be- "Not enough to be newsworthy enough to delve into this topic."
I think it's unhealthy to wallow in this election.
The best strategy for my purposes is to work on the future.
Community efforts are the place to start. Building a grassroots force that can win elections in the future.
The Sec of State is also one of my first priorities. Fortunately, she is a Democrat and should be willing to get elections worked out right for 2006.

[Tinoire]

37. No you're not cynical!

You have no idea how I envied your opimism during the primaries, your willingness to give it a try.

I still don't think they have any plan whatsoever except for one, and it's the only plan we're seeing implemented- flood the internet with establishment supporters to get people to shut up. The Democratic establishment saw its Liberal gravy train slipping away with the grass-roots movements organized around the non-DLC backed candidates Dean & Kucinich and they've been in panic mode since then because they can't control the internet the way they can control the traditional media. Have you noticed how Kos, the Nation, DUers, BartCop, BuzzFlash, Antiwar, Agonist, everyone is socking it to them and saying "we're not taking this anymore- you've got to go". I think the only plan they have now is to desperately keep clutching on to the run-away gravy train until they can hastily groom a few pseudo-progressives candidates for the next election.

If they had a plan, not only would we would have seen it by now but they would have spent their energy on implementing it instead of vilifying Progressives and breaking eggs on their foreheads.

You're not cynical but I know I am. It would be so nice to have pleasantly surprised on this one! :hug:

[bemildred]

Yes indeed. Well said. nt

[itzamirakul]

68. Agree! More than anything...

I am fed up with Al From crawling out from under a rock and bashing Michael Moore for doing the job that the DLC SHOULD have done. Why isn't the DLC/DNC bashing the Bush team on social Security reforms instead of wasting time bashing the grassroots and their own supporters? You explain it very well when you say they are afraid of losing the gravy train. The problem with the DLC is that they want to keep hands in both pockets, i.e. one in the pocket of corporate donors and one in the pocket of grassroots supporters.

[Tinoire]

78. Ouch! The cynicism!

Come have a seat right next to me Itzamirakul ;)

[Capn Sunshine]

77. No ,they have a plan

you're watching it in (in)action. :grr:

[Tinoire]

79. Ok... lol

But it wasn't a very good plan because the plug's not even in the outlet!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

122. LOL. Just like Jon Stewart's 'Democracy Inaction' history book satire.

Just enough movement to make us think he isn't dead so we can hope he puts on his cape and saves us as...Super Democrat!

The DNC/DLC will make just enough noise to make us think they really heard us saying 'fight back already.'

Unfortunately, the GOP is gleefully rubbing its hands as the reality that Kerry DID WIN but was robbed eludes those of us angry with the shitty campaign he ran that looks like he threw the fight.

I want the Dem party to genuinely challenge the GOP but think it's time to get candidates who aren't bought off, incompetent, or lacking fire in the belly to save us from fascism and it's mass-murder economy.

[UTDemocrat8204]

33. With me I've

given up on any change of the outcome. Maybe Kerry feels that way? I remember in his concession speech he seemed so sad and said his people and he agreed there weren't enough votes to change things. If anything does change then that would be a Christmas miracle.

[itzamirakul]

63. I love your signature quote by

Al Sharpton. That is one that I missed somehow.

[mattclearing]

88. I've been following it, and I agree with you.

I suspect Cobb has been sent out as a feint, to give the impression that Kerry isn't interested in the recounts, so as to keep the sore-loserman crowd from going apeshit. Whatever they are doing, they want to keep it under the radar.

[MissBrooks]

110. It looks like Kerry doesn't have the stamina for a long fight!

It looks like Kerry doesn't have the stamina for a long fight!

A quitter?

[genius]

2. Kerry doesn't want to be President.

As much as I hate thinking I was fooled, he's looking more and more like a shill for Bush. I am wondering if the whole thing was just a show for our benefit.

[Eurobabe]

3. yeah remember that behind the scenes conversation

at one of the debates, when the mic picked up Bu$hie Boy saying, "can I talk to you for a minute?"

[Tinoire]

6. I missed that.

Do you have a good link by any chance for that? It wouldn't suprise me one bit though because they agree in advance of what they will and won't say. This is the main reason they can't have third party interlopers rocking the debate boat.

[bemildred]

23. I remember it quite well, if that helps. nt

[Tinoire]

28. I don't doubt the story! In fact I remember it coming up in the past

I asked because I'd like to revisit the portion of the debates right before it was said... Call it a desire to torture myself with their treachery.

:hi:

[The Zanti Regent]

22. Yes, and I bet Bush reminded him about the Bonesman deal they made.

Why else did Kerry lay down and die for those so-called "Swift Boat Veterans"?

Kerry made a Bonesman deal to throw the election to Bush and his actions prove it!

[Lorien]

84. Sounds like we've been "Bonesmened"

nothing would shock me anymore. Either the Dems need a revolution, or we need a viable third party. Business as usual will end in the usual results, and America can't survive more of the same.

[dbt]

4. Roger that, genius!

And something still smells mighty fishy from the Democratic end regarding the Fall of Howard Dean.

:grr:
dbt

[Tinoire]

7. Well

No major Dean fan here (as thousands of old time Dean supporters can attest) but Dean's fall was one of the most shameful things I've ever seen in Democratic politics. And it wasn't just Dean's fall, it was the DLC's/Kerry's rise that accompanied that precipitated fall.

Dean, centrist though he was, was done in because the Democratic Party was in no way trusting of the popular support Dean had behind him. Dean was actually listening to that uncontrollable force and that was a great danger to the power elite.

[dbt]

8. How fucked is that!

When the Democrats are afraid of popular support--and it sure looks like they are these days--we are through the Looking Glass.

:freak:
dbt

[Cha]

13. They must have been positively

apoplectic with all those votes coming in for Kerry..who was running on a very populace message at the end.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Those were anti-Bush votes, not pro-Kerry votes!

After all, Kerry was wrong in voting for PATRIOT and for IWR, and he is wrong for conceding the election as quickly as he did.

[Lorien]

85. That's what I saw working at our Kerry HQ

and even at his rallies, where people chanted AGAINST Bush*, not FOR Kerry (I even pulled those leading the chants aside and asked them to put a pro-Kerry spin on the message, but those chants never really took off).

[madfloridian]

34. Yes, they do appear fearful of popular support.

Not really wanting it.

[Zhade]

14. Dean was my second choice for one reason: POPULISM.

I think populism and grassroots work is a grave threat to the entrenched power-wranglers in the Beltway. They don't want the Great Unwashed to actually self-govern! Why, that might cut into corporate profits and muck up the nice cushy system that both parties have set up for themselves.

The rabble must know their place, and that place is at the kiddie table, not the grown-ups' table.

[proud patriot]

16. I a Dean Supporter can attest that my Friend Tinoire was not a Dean fan

during the primaries :loveya: we had many talks about it:hug:

[Tinoire]

19. LMAO

:blush:

but I did admire him in ways and really admired the Dean Machine! I rooted the Dean machine the entire time because it was such a populist movement.

I have learned that it is not good to try to know everything- makes you too cynical in the end. Next election, I don't think I want to dig up so much dirt!

You just be there, as my friend, to remind me that nobody's perfect ok?

:hug:

[proud patriot]

31. always

:loveya:

[UTDemocrat8204]

36. I didn't know

much about Dean or Clark in the beginning but then I found out more info and started seeing them around some and I began to like them. :loveya:

[CarbonDate]

111. Not uncontrollable

I'd say they controlled it quite remarkably.

[newblewtoo]

10. and don't call me Shirley....

Roger that. I still believe Karl Rove's greatest genius lay in the feign he pulled in Iowa and New Hampshire to take Dean out and get the candidate he wanted most to run against. Rove had folks believing he would 'love' go against Dean and would make him look like a four headed raving lunatic. The primary voters killed him off for Rove before he ever got out of the blocks. Sweet.........

[Tinoire]

17. Sadly, Rove had less to do with that than the DLC imho

My conclusion is that it was mostly orchestrated by the Democratic Party apparatus which was well-represented by the DLC and the goon squads they sent to the caucuses.

Tbe DLC is so much in bed with the neo-Cons that if it can't be their version of Bush-lite, they'll take Bush.

Even diehard Leftist like me who hated Dean for inconsistencies we were unwilling to ignore were willing to vote for him. The DLC was more scared of that than Rove was because it spelled the end of the DLC.

Not that what you're saying doesn't have truth to it. I had posted some articles about CNN getting pressuring calls to start showing the race as Bush vs Kerry before a single primary vote had even been cast.

Dean wasn't killed off by the Primary voters. I have saved many Primaries-period articles and threads about disenfranchised Black voters in Detroit, polling places mysteriously closed while the DNC refused to update lists so people in "certain" neigborhoods couldn't get to vote, oh gosh, so many it hurts to even think of them and the things we learned from following these last Primaries closely.

IF ONLY IT HAD BEEN ROVE, I would feel much better.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. I see it just a little bit different.

I think two candidates were picked off by forces other than "the people". Those two were Howard Dean and Wesley Clark. The DLC and the Chimpus Khan camps were both after Dean until Clark became a serious entity. Then they split. The DLC stayed on Dean, as the King Khan folks saw the damage to Dean was heavy *and* the DLC was doing their work for them. That left them to go after Clark.

Dean got bumped off early, largely because he started early and they had plenty of time to work on him. Clark survived a few more rounds and then he was down, too. Of course Clark's late start didn't help him either.

Either Clark or Dean could have beaten King Khan by a sufficiently large margin as to overcome all but laughably obvious cheating. As it was, Kerry got close enough, but not so close they couldn't hide their malfeasance in a way that they will never be caught.

No one attacked any of the other candidates in the primaries, not even Kerry. Why was that? Only Dean and Clark had messages and/or personas that would have played well to all or part of King Khan's base.

They knew every other candidate was easy to knock down. (Not saying any of this is true or not, but) Edwards was easy to hit as a lightweight, a trial lawyer, and an absentee, overly ambitious newcomer. Kerry was easy to hit as both a traitor and a liberal. Gephardt was never really a factor. Kucinich, Sharpton, and Moseley-Braun were simply window dressing.

(edited for fatfinger typos)

[Upfront]

32. Ah

Maybe Rove=Dlc?

[IndianaGreen]

55. My dear friend Tinoire supported Dennis Kucinich

There are those that prefer to continue to drink that Kool-Aid that gave us Mister Electable as the 2004 nominee, I hope that they will soon stop being in denial about how fatally flawed the nominee turned out to be. His silence on Ohio validates all of the doubts progressives harbored about him!

[Tinoire]

61. Indy!

The person whose posts drew me to register at DU after lurking for months amazed that I wasn't alone in my anger over the I/P situation.

Good to see you !

:baaaaaaaaahaaahaaaa: ;)

[mike_c]

11. I think he would have been happy to be president...

...but I think Cobb is also correct that at the end of the day what really motivates John Kerry is staying in good standing within the elite club of those with real economic and political power. Kerry does not want to be perceived as a maveric or a malcontent within that club. He's a good 'ole boy and never intended to be anything else. He even endorsed most of the "club" policies on such things as illegally invading other countries while "opposing" the club's current leadership.

No, I think he'd have been happy to be president, but failing that, he's not going to cause any discomfort among his fellow rich white guys at the top.

[despairing optimist]

70. I agree completely. Remember, there were two Kerrys running

One said, "I've got your back," and the other pretty much stabbed you in it with such comments as "I'm not a redistribution Democrat" and "I'd vote for the Iraq War Resolution all over again even knowing what I know now."

Yes, at the end of the day, the billionaire had little to lose with a multimillionaire in the White House instead of him. Maybe he burped after he ate the humble pie on Election Day, but that's about it. He had $53 million in his campaign chest for Pepto Bismol.

I wish I could have voted for all you people out there who worked your butts off for that guy. You're the ones who deserve to be in the Oval Office!

[w4rma]

12. Kerry: As much of an idiot as he was during the primary. I supported Dean

in the primary. Don't blame me for this guy.

Btw, Kerry needs to forget about 2008. It was 2004 or bust. Kerry blew it and continues to blow it.

It's good that there are lots of Dems to run in 2008 that are much better than Kerry: Gov. Warner, Vice President Gore, Sen. Edwards, Gen. Clark, Sen. Feingold.

[redstateblues]

44. Sorry-I like dean OK but he would not have done as well as Kerry

His gun rack comment showed how tone deaf he was to the people we needed to put this election in the Democrat column.

[ShaneGR]

18. I believe this is no more than a way for the Green Party to split Democrat

Unfortunately, the perfect wedge issue.

[Tinoire]

21. But is it true?

This is more than a wedge issue to people like me who saw this coming before a single Primary vote had been cast. The degree of truth in their assertion is my degree of confirmation that the current Democratic establishment is our biggest obstacle to progress.

[madfloridian]

35. Well, in 2000 the Dems did not want to divide the country.

So now we say the Greens are using a wedge issue. What is going on here? There are enough problems showing that the recount needs to be pursued....for freedom's sake.

And yes, we need to make waves if necessary. I am glad the Greens are speaking out.

[Sub Zero]

41. Oh please

A party that has trouble winning an election for dog catcher is able to bring down our party with "wedge issues"? Get real.

[IndianaGreen]

54. It's the war in Iraq that has split the Democratic Party, not the Greens!

And it is the war in Iraq, and its evil twin PATRIOT Act, that will continue to divide the Democratic Party for as long as it fails to condemn both!

[Tinoire]

64. That was clear and succinct

How long have we been making this point? Did the establishment Dems think we were joking when we took to the streets by the millions to protest? I'm angrier now than I was back then. Not only is nothing forgotten but it is not forgiven. And I'm keeping, framed and prominently displayed, the "kiss-my-ass" letters that Feinstein, Clinton and Kerry sent me. Never again. No more guilt trips, no more hollow slogans and no more war candidates.

[IndianaGreen]

66. "no more war candidates"

and I will add, no more rightwing enabling candidates!

Howdie!

:loveya:

[Tinoire]

80. Isn't that a little redundant

;)


I'm with you ALL the way!!!! As always! :toast: to a fighting chance for a progressive future.

:toast: to Russ Feingold!

[IndianaGreen]

96. Russ Feingold may well be the one progressives coalesce around

Feingold is a maverick, and no one owns him, including progressives. But I think we need to rally early around a candidate with clearly defined core values that are for the most part aligned with our own set of core values.

No more appeals to the fictitious "mushy middle," and no more Clintonian triangulations!

On a personal level, if Holy Joe was the epitome of the Likud in America, Feingold is the embodiment of the Rabin faction.

[bemildred]

24. Allow me to 'splain it to you.

What was wanted was a "decisive" result, unlike what happened in
2000. Hence it was agreed that whichever way the wind was blowing,
the other guy would cave immediately. Bush is doing his part by
acting like a "decisive" winner - even though he just edged Kerry
out by a bit more than in 2000, and Kerry is doing his part by "supporting"
the recounts etc. but avoiding any implication of reversing the
result. You may take it as evidence that a real recount might
reverse the result that Kerry is not putting up more of a fight.

[Tinoire]

39. LOL,

I love you and you know it but I've reread that 5 times and I still get dizzy with the last sentence. 'Help me Rhonda please' with the last sentence because I think I follow you but then I'm not sure. Too amusingly well written- you should seriously volunteer your services to someone's campaign!

[bemildred]

43. I am a shameless showoff, I admit it.

I am saying that Kerry would be free to pursue "getting all the
votes counted" (as promised) if it were certain that would not reverse
the "decisive" outcome. As it it he is torn between the need to
not rock the boat and the political damage he is taking because of
his failure to keep his word to "fight" for us.

In short form, were Bush's win really decisive, Kerry would be free
to make more of a show of "fighting" for us.

[Tinoire]

65. Whew!

I was following you after all! :bounce:

had me scared there for a minute because this phrase came across in Turkish- the weirdest part is that I still love it!


"You may take it as evidence that a real recount might
reverse the result that Kerry is not putting up more of a fight."

:loveya:

[madfloridian]

48. And that sig line can get one's head spinning like a top.

LOL...I agree with Tinoire about your last sentence.

[bemildred]

49. I stole that from Walt Kelly (in Pogo).

It is one of my favorites, but does take a bit to wrap your mind around.
Sort of like Dumbsfeldts stuff about "knowns unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" and so on.

[Tinoire]

67. Oh whew!

Thank you because I was just about to :smoke: to examine its depth. It's a very clever sentence but lol oh lol.

Thanks to you and Bemildred. I feel better now. Kind of. I think ;)

[Chicago Democrat]

26. On Laura Flanders now.... Kerry has let us all down.

:cry:

I want my money back Mr. Kerry.. worm

[madfloridian]

29. She is really powerful tonight. Has Jay Bookman, Mark Crispin Miller.

:hi:

[BeFree]

40. I don't get it

Yall are all over the place... "Kerry won, but the vote was stolen... Kerry is a failure.... Kerry took a dive.... It's the DLC's fault... it was Rove, it wasn't Rove... Dean would have won, Clark woulda won, Anybody woulda won.... I'm a cynic, no you're not, maybe I am.. not!... 2008 will be better..."

Good thing I know pretty much what's happening or I'd be tearing my hair out right now trying to figure out what the hells going on! But think of the newbies, the poor, poor newbies who read threads like this.

Folks, Kerry won the damn election. And it was stolen from us. Now, you may feel like it's a done deal. Fine. STFU, or work to get it back. 2008 is coming down and if we let remain stolen it won't matter who runs.

[Rockerdem]

42. I'm one of the newbies

I lurked for quite a while before joining officially, so the numerous viewpoints aren't a surprise. What is deflating is the middle-of-November solidarity and enthusiasm that just collapsed in the past few weeks. All of the ongoing tensions that evidently were subdued in the summer/fall have sinced resurfaced in the form of bickering and recriminations.

We were all under the impression that there were hordes of activists and lawyers that were going to swamp the Ohio recount with fervor and cash. That lulled the rest of us optimists into a limbo of complacency. While the past 4 weeks just slipped by quickly, the nightly cascade of recount stories on Olbermann became of trickle. On top of that came the unfortunate BBV meltdown. I dont know. Contrary to when I joined, Im resigned to * staying in power. Its going to take 2006 to get the juices flowing again. The next 6-12 months here are going to have a lot of unpleasant moments because of the take-no-prisoners contingent.

sigh

[Tinoire]

45. Welcome to DU Rockerdem

:toast:

But don't spoil the fun ;)

If it's not "what will the Freepers think", it's "what will the newbies think".

What you saw during the Primaries was forced unity around a ham souffle. Now the souffle has collapsed but certain people are trying to prove that you can make a souffle rise twice.

ABB killed the souffle.

[madfloridian]

47. Ah, phrased as only Tinoire can phrase.

:hi:

[Tinoire]

72. :blush:

:hi:

[BeFree]

53. What will the newbies think?

Yeah, who cares what they think, we don't need 'em... We are the top dogs and we are all so, so very smart, hell, we know it all. /sarcasm

The previous primaries on DU were disgustng, and anyone who is proud of the trash we litterd DU with in that time can go fly a kite.

And now we are littering DU again. Ya wanna know why we almost lost the election? Do ya really? I don't think you do. Yall would rather do your little soap operas and make out like kings and queens of the trashy stories littering DU.

[Tinoire]

71. Shhhh. You're going to upset the Joneses

Me you're just scaring with your lack of reading comprehension and the impressive manner in which you fabricated that ridiculous conclusion:

Yeah, who cares what they think, we don't need 'em... We are the top dogs and we are all so, so very smart, hell, we know it all.

Just what was it again that attracted you to this site? Or did you not lurk before registering? What were you expecting? I hope you weren't expecting a tea party because DU never was that. As a matter of fact, it was a lot more productive before the thought police showed up in their doomed attempt to cow everyone into some sort of submission. And submission to what? A pathetic, empty, hollow slogan that ended up in 4 more years of Bush and DLC strategists breaking eggs on their foreheads on national TV.

You're funny. Please don't think you're the first person to make such silly comments about the tone here. Strangely enough, despite the incessant whining warnings of the "what will X think" crowd, this site steadily kept growing by leaps and bounds.

:shhhhh: You're going to scare off new posters with your temper tantrum and then what will all those well-behaved Freepers think?

You might even scare off a few people who want politics to be a ladies tea party and we wouldn't want that, would we?

[BeFree]

86. Comprehending

Yeah, sure, John Kerry is a "pathetic, empty, hollow slogan". That statement is bullshit, it's litter, pure trash. Written from a keyboard of someone who thinks they know it all.

I do not know what career you have, but mine is one in which many different pieces are joined with long lasting connections through a complicated teamwork process involving disparate individuals.

The end product is successful only because all the members of the team work toward the same goal. While there is room for individual disgression in the production design, once the primary decision is made there is no room for disagreement on the final product. The result is success.

Carrying that successful operation over to the political field in which we at DU converse, I can see how statements such as your's about our final product, ie Kerry, are demoralizing and destructive to the successful completion of our goals. Can't you?

Well, it appears we failed to get our final product, ie Kerry, installed. A whole lot of people thought Kerry was just fine, 57 million at least, but you think he was a "pathetic, empty, hollow slogan." Now do you have an idea why we failed? Could it be you are part of the reason we will have to live through four more years of B***? The more I read of your litter, the more I think you may be to blame. Thanks.

[madfloridian]

73. Who is "you" and who do you mean by "we."?

Tinoire was not a Dean supporter at all, I supported Kerry after Dean dropped out and she fussed at me.

No one is littering DU with anything that I can see except posts that defy comprehension.

Who are you calling the kings and queens? That is very odd. None of us agreed with each other during the primaries, but we are trying to understand now what has happened to the country we love.

[Tinoire]

81. Thanks Madfloridian

I wasn't even going to go there because I don't have your patience to explain things to people who come out of the blue and leap to conclusions.

No one is littering DU with anything that I can see except posts that defy comprehension.

Have you and Bemildred been hanging out behind my back? I can't believe all the great sentences I've been reading here tonight. It's like the old, witty DU is back and I'm loving it again!

:loveya:

[madfloridian]

74. Welcome to DU, rockerdem.

:hi:

[redstateblues]

46. Good post- I'm sick of all the second guessers- Kerry's a good man

None of the other wannabes would have done any better than Kerry. I was a Clarkie- still am. The Pugs strategy of fear won- the fervor of the fundies was something that we weren't able to match- It sucks- don't blame John Kerry- all this BS about kerry not wanting it- gimme a fuckin' break

[Rockerdem]

50. My attitude for the coming months: stick to issues & principles

Too many here are beginning to ride horses instead of hammering out a coherent philosophy and forging a strategy to implement it. Like I said on another thread, the Pubbies keep is simple - both for them and the average dumbfuck voter. Two or 3 issues, tops.

Instead, here we are getting into or reliving hairy fights of yesteryear over flawed dinosaur candidates. How shortsighted and petty is that? A lot of the backbiting could be eliminated by sticking to the basics of what we stand for. A new crop of candidates is going to appear, and one of them is going to be the best fit. That's the way it should work, principles first, new, fresh talent second. That's the road Im taking for at least a year.

[IndianaGreen]

57. Would Clark had conceded while Ohio was still in question?

I think not! Clark would have been on the Keith Olbermann Show railing against Ohio's Secretary of State, something that Kerry has yet to do in any public forum.

[Leilani]

83. That's right, Indiana.

When someone asked Clark what he'd do when he started getting smeared, he said, "I'll kick their ass!"

And he would have, too.

When he went on FOX News & Davis Asman tried some funny stuff, Clark blew him out of the water.

There wouldn't have been any issue about Vietnam, either. He kept fighting after he got shot, & they had to carry him away on a stretcher. Spent a year recovering.

He's a fighter, no doubt about it.

[Walt Starr]

58. The more I think about EVERYTHING that went on this year

the more I'm thinking Kerry threw the thing.

[Rockerdem]

60. Walt, its simpler

One stat tells the whole story. One.

Kerry lost enough women. Unbelievable.

Why? Did the bin Laden tape and the beheadings and the massacre in the old Soviet Union make them want some subliminal level of security? (look at the correlation between those events and when JFK's polls dipped).

Kerry had an excellent performance in the debates. But somehow he didnt connect with women on some unknown plane. A mystery to everyone still.

[JI7]

62. "white women"

he lost white women votes in the final days. that's what his pollsters found. white women are some of the biggest group of swing voters.

after the debates Kerry had gained back . but in the final days when the bin laden tape came out and they started connecting the russian school hostage thing and bin laden and just the whole fear mongering thing, Kerry lost among the white women. they got scared and voted for whoever they viewed to be the biggest hawk.

Clinton won in large part because he won white women along with the traditional democratic voters. al gore in 2000 split this group which could account for the closeness of the race. and Kerry in 2004 lost them.

but Kerry did gain among men which is interesting. i believe it was probably mostly young men since Kerry won by a huge majority among voters under 30. this is why the race was still close anyways.

[Rockerdem]

69. I think the massacre of kids in Beslan Russia

was a bigger wetblanket than the Swift crap. Kerry actually recovered from the mid August silly season, but then the GOP convention & the school massacre a week later stalled him. Hurt him bad actually.

But the debate performances put him in a tie at least (up in some polls, down in others). About 7 days before the election, I thought that Kerry had nailed *. Presto, the bin Laden tape came out, and women just seemed to leak away.

The beheadings also touched a deep nerve. Dual. Anger and fear, I think.

[zulchzulu]

75. Cobb is a goddamn lying twit

"Not a single dime"... BULLSHIT. So the Kerry legal team in Florida and Ohio doing their work, filing press releases about what they are finding, etc. is not spending money? AND spending money?

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041202-111323-4031r.htm

What's this article say, Davey boy. Ever fucking heard of Google? Maybe Laura hasn't heard of Google either? What you do is type in Google and then maybe a couple words like "Kerry recount"...it's really cool....man.

What the fuck is wrong with these people?

[w4rma]

76. Interesting. Are the Greens lying to split the Democratic Party? (nt)

[Tinoire]

82. I'm going to help you with your reading comprehension

From the original story:

In an exclusive interview with RAW STORY Friday, the Green Party’s presidential candidate David Cobb lashed out at Sen. John Kerry, saying he Democratic nominee has tried to “undermine,” “delegitimize” and “minimize” the Ohio recount.

What state is Cobb talking about? Very good! He's talking about OHIO

Cobb, who ran an unsuccessful bid for president, is at the vanguard of the Ohio recount. The Green and Libertarian Parties raised tens of thousands of dollars to pay for the recount and put county observers on the ground.

Meanwhile, Cobb observed, Kerry has not contributed “a single dime.”

“John Kerry is trying to minimize and undermine and delegitmize the recount,” Cobb asserted.

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=502

Once again, what state again are we discussing? That's right- the battleground state of OHIO.

Now, let's look at what proof you bring us that Cobb is, how did you so elegantly put it again? That's right "goddamn lying twit".

What proof did you bring? An article called

Kerry sends cash for Wash. State recount

((Wash. State being the abbreviation for WASHINGTON State on the slight chance you might not be following))

Washington, DC, Dec. 2 (UPI) -- U.S. Sen. John F. Kerry, D-Mass., kicked in more than $200,000 in unspent presidential campaign funds to help Democrats fund a recount in Washington state.




Frankly, I fail to see how you got so confused :shrug: You must be very tired.

I thought the rest of the article was interesting too:

Even with Kerry's substantial donation, however, Gregoire and the Democrats have not yet raised the $700,000 they need to put up in advance before election officials can begin a statewide hand recount.

A state party spokesman said the Democrats have $500,000 on hand, including Kerry's contribution, and have requested $200,000 from the Democratic National Committee.

Do you mean to tell me Kerry had between $15 and $51 million dollars (depending on whose figure you use) left over from the election and all he could spare was $200,000? Tell me, what is he saving the remaining millions for? What a beautiful gesture that is to make a paltry donation that leaves everyone short of what they need for the recount in WASHINGTON state and giving "NOT ONE DIME" for the recount in OHIO state.

Let me know if my post wasn't clear. I'd be happy to try to explain it a different way.

:)

[zulchzulu]

90. Thanks Pops for the lecture..maybe you wanna read this too

http://rawstory.com/exclusives/kerry_1216.php

I guess Cobb has inside information that the Kerry legal team "hasn't spent one dime"...maybe they are using monopoly money.

Who knew Cobb was such a fucking genius.

Pass this link on to the Cobbers and lazy tinfoilhatters like Laura Flanders...

[bemildred]

92. You misquote Mr. Cobb:

Meanwhile, Cobb observed, Kerry has not contributed “a single dime.”

I'm sure this is just an oversight.

[zulchzulu]

93. One would assume Cobb (when Kerrytrashing) meant Kerry legal team

The fact that Cobb opportunistically lied to Laura Flanders that Kerry hadn't contributed anything to the Ohio recount efforts is what is in question here.

Also, the fact that Laura Flanders continues to prove to me that she is more about giggling with Kerry trashers than possibly looking up facts to back up their claims.

No wonder she's on the weekend shift.

[bemildred]

94. That is not a fact, that is an opinion, an unfounded one, so far.,

And you still misread; he said Kerry contributed no money, he did not say
he did not contribute "anything", a much more general claim. His assertion
is more in the nature that the Kerry team is faking it than that they
are doing nothing. It is you who seem to prefer name-calling to facts.

[zulchzulu]

98. So if you have staff in Ohio/FL and are investigating the fraud issues...

...you AREN"T spending ANY money? Is that it?

So if Kerry hasn't spent a dime in Ohio as Cobb accuses, even though he has a legal team (which like all lawyers don't ask for any money), he is somehow not doing anything in Ohio? His staff are there with...um...nothing...and spending...um...nothing...on investigations which are...um... costing...um..nothing? They are releasing press releases and making statements that aren't being fully covered in the partisan media, so it's safe to assume they are "faking" it...

Wow. That's pretty interesting.

[bemildred]

113. Just not going to go anywhere near the "contribute" word, are you?

Why not contribute to the Ohio presidential recount?
If it is worthwhile to recount the gubernatorial votes in
Washington, enough to contribute money for it, why not also
contribute money to the Presidential recount in Ohio? That's
the question, and it's a good one.

[Tinoire]

95. When you have facts backing up your points come back and talk

until then you're rather discredited - especially since instead of admitting your mistake, you compound it by burying your head even deeper and trying to bluff with more 'proof' totally irrelevant to the point we're discussing.

I'm book-marking this.

Please don't embarrass yourself further. People here have long memories and have little respect for those who can't admit they made a mistake, even less for those who deliberately spin & bluff out of blind partisanship.

[zulchzulu]

106. Name the points you want me to prove to you

Make a list.

[Tinoire]

109. I don't need you to "prove" anything. You called Cobb a lying twit

I pointed out your mistake here, underlining in red why Cobb wasn't lying but you still persist and spin and bluff because you can't gracefully admit you were too in your knee-jerk Pavlovian defense.

Unless you can find proof that Kerry contributed "a single dime" to the Ohio recount effort before the date of this interview, you have no right to call Cobb a lying twit and accuse him of lying to fracture the Democratic Party.

What do you want? For Kerry to be a saint and Cobb to be a lying twit simply because Kerry is a Democrat? Blind partisanship isn't going to help us progress. Cobb has every right to call Kerry out on this and we have an obligation to deal with the truth. No one's shit smells like roses, not even Kerry's.

[zulchzulu]

112. Some examples where Kerry is involved in Ohio Recount/Election Fraud

Statement from Cam Kerry (email)
November 9, 2004

I am grateful to the many people who have contacted me to express their deep concern about questions of miscounting, fraud, vote suppression, and other problems on election day, especially in Florida and Ohio. Their concern reflects how much people care about the outcome of this election.

I want to you to know we are not ignoring it. Election protection lawyers are still on the job in Ohio and Florida and in DC making sure all the votes are counted accurately. I have been conferring with lawyers involved and have made them aware of the information and concerns people have given me.

Even if the facts don't provide a basis to change the outcome, the information will inform the continuing effort to protect the integrity of our elections.
If you have specific factual information about voting problems that could be helpful to the lawyers doing their job, please send it to [e-mail] rather than to me.

The election protection effort has been important to me personally, and I am proud of the 17,000 lawyers around the country who helped. It's obvious that we have a way to go still, but their efforts helped make a difference. Their work goes on.

Thank you,
Cam Kerry
http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/ale04089.html

Kerry talks about election results and plans to find out what happened (among other things):
http://www.kerrysupport.com/media/kerry_110904.mp3

Another story:
Green/Libertarian/Kerry suit in Ohio
http://rawstory.com/exclusives/kerry_ohio_suit_1215.php

Kerry lawyer asks for visual inspection of some Ohio ballots
http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=2682767

Jesse Jackson demands Ohio presidential recount, blasts GOP election officials, and says Kerry supports the process (11/29)
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/947

Kerry involved in Ohio recount efforts
http://www.northcountynews.com/view.asp?s=11-24-04/news5.htm

[Tinoire]

123. Excellent. Thank you!

A civil answer. Much appreciated and goes a lot further than, oh well, I'll drop it.

I understand your point that Kerry is doing something but that still doesn't make Cobb a liar since Kerry hasn't donated desperately needed money.

And yes, Cam did write a lovely letter but do you recall the orders the lawyers got to "stand down"? That was a shame for us. As a voter, I don't want tired assurances from third parties (Jessie Jackson) that "Kerry indicated he supports the recount effort", I want to see Kerry front and center, "reporting for duty" and actively fighting those creeps. Honestly, I can think of NO excuse not to make this his main priority right now.

Basically what this is boiling down to is how the Ohio papers summed it up:

The recount, requested by Cobb and Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik, is supported by the Kerry campaign,

http://www.news-herald.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13566798&BRD=1698&PAG=461&dept_id=21849&rfi=6

I wish us all luck in these suits and recounts because even though it won't make a difference for this election anymore (too late now), it may make a huge difference in future elections. The time to start fighting these battles and setting precedents is now.

By the way, you have my sympathies. I understand, truly do, how frustrating it is to see people 'trash' a man you believe in. It's not an easy thing to work past but it's worth it on a political board, you can't afford to get emotionally invested in these guys - not good for our blood pressure ;)

[IndianaGreen]

97. And you are using the Washington Times as your source!

Oy!

:eyes:

[zulchzulu]

103. It was a UPI story...big 'effin whoop

I'm assuming you know how to read news columns. You saw that it was a UPI story...right?

[IndianaGreen]

105. Rev. Moon owns UPI and the Washington Times

Don't let the facts confuse the issue.

[zulchzulu]

108. OK...here's another source...gee..this is fun!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201970_governor02.html

Here's another site with the same story.

Oh, Truthout used the WP article to illustrate the story:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120204X.shtml

I guess they are Moonie lovers too.

[BeFree]

87. Cobb may be wrong

It could be that Kerry sees the wisdom in appearing to distance himself from the recount, while working in the background. Indeed, Kerry's lawyers are working on the legal matters, we've seen a number of reports detailing their actions.

So far, Kerry has not needed to be seen as being behind the recounts, Cobb, et al, have gotten the process moving without any up-front actions from Kerry.

Therefore, the press has not been able to litter the Kerry campaign with such slogans as the 'sore-loser-man' we saw in 2000. So far, Kerry is clean.

Could I be mistaken in my belief that Kerry is a player behind the scene? Sure. I do not pretend to know it all, and am just trying to look at all the angles.

Cobb may be playing a part in keeping Kerry clean by this statement, if indeed it is true. Imagine it the other way, and Cobb saying Kerry is backing him completely: The M$M would be coming down hard on Kerry were that the case.

[zulchzulu]

91. Cobb is an opportunist willing to trash and lie about Kerry's efforts

Gee...who could have predicted that?

I guess the Kerry legal team (who have been in Ohio, Florida and elsewhere investigating the voter fraud issues) is using monopoly money. Here's a recent letter concerning the Ohio recount from the Kerry legal team. It sounds like they have been there since just after the election...could it be that Cobb wants to refute that?

[IndianaGreen]

100. Everybody lies, but Kerry!

He merely nuances his answers until no one knows what the Hell he is talking about.

May I assume that you are including the Libertarian candidate in your diatribe about Cobb, after all, the Greens and the Libertarians are the ones paying for the recount in Ohio.

[zulchzulu]

102. Badnarik is smart enough to know that Kerry has spent money in Ohio

Cobb is an opportunist. Badnarik at least knew not to be a liar.

I do love your little Rovelike jab about Kerry's "nuance" problem. Fox News watchin' again?

[IndianaGreen]

104. Kerry is the only Senator that believes that a vote for IWR

was not a vote for war. He is either deluding us, or deluding himself. In either case, his vote enabled the carnage we see today in Iraq.

[zulchzulu]

107. Wow...back to this...

Some people just don't get complexity.

Quickly, Kerry voted for the IWR to have the UN continue inspections for WMDs...have them continue while going to ALL of our allies and building a true coalition like the first Gulf War (which Dean supported unlike Kerry) and to go into Iraq as a last resort (unlike Dean who supported the idea of a preemptive strike in Iraq in his Salon interview in February 2003).

Whatever... this thread is about Cobb being an opportunistic liar about how Kerry has done nothing in Ohio...

[Darranar]

120. Oh, please. The Libertarian and Green Parties were at the forefront...

of this from the beginning. If Cobb is merely an "opportunist", why fight for KERRY'S votes - which is essentially what he's doing?

[leftyandproud]

89. 3.2 million votes people...

Even if it were less than a 3.4% margin in Ohio...even if it were 1%, and the results were overturned, we would be having a civil war.

Overturning a 52/48 election aint gonna happen.
It's past time to accept the truth.
We live in a nation of idiots.

[BeFree]

99. 3.2 million?

I don't think so. Why do some of you accept what you are told without waiting for the recounts to happen and a full investigation of the voting machine has occured?

Why? WTF? You blindly accept what B*** claims, no questions asked?

What has happened to you people? If I didn't know better, I'd say you are being paid to divide us and breakdown our will to fight for truth, justice and liberty.

Why do yall just roll over and take it, all the while cussing our team? What the hell is wrong here? Can anyone explain? I doubt it. I'll probably hear more BS like: "It's over." Don't tell me that. I know better. It's only over when the last of us give in and cry uncle, and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

[Bush was AWOL]

116. Do you claim the election was stolen?

back it up with some legitimate evidence if you do.

[whistle]

101. That is nuts...

[Bush was AWOL]

114. Cobb has nothing to lose

he can be a loose cannon while not having to worry about the consequences of his words or actions. It's easy for Cobb to criticize knowing that someone that runs on his sort of platform has ZERO chance of ever being elected to a significant office in American politics.

[Deja Q]

115. No shock from me. He conceded in the first place. No surrender...

But no surrender to whom?

[catgirl]

117. I'm shaking my head after reading this thread

All this bashing will make any repug jump for joy. All the Cobb fans here who are ganging up on anyone who defends Kerry look bad. I'm seeing a major division happening here, which may or may not have Rovian influence. Scan through this thread and you'll see what I mean.

Moooom, it's not my fault he did it! No, she did it! He did it! and so on and so on and so on and so on...........................................................................................

[Darranar]

124. I think Karl Rove has more important things to do...

than infiltrate DU with fake Cobb fans.

[Tinoire]

125. The Republicans jumped for joy the day Kerrry conceded

but keep shaking your head and imagining Rove behind every tree. It's easier to blame everything on Rove & "Cobb fans" (whatever that means) than to own up to the fact that people have good reason to be pissed off.

Major Rovian influence. Sheesh.

Certain Democrats need to stop caring so much about what Republicans think and start caring a little more about what we, the people, think.

The time of the forced, shallow, ABB unity fawning over Kerry is over. Deal with it gracefully cause no amount of hand-wringing is going to bring it back. He let us down and people are going to say so.

If you have a good defense for Kerry, bring it forth. The hand-wringing is ridiculous; this isn't a Sunday afternoon garden party- this is four more years of hell. Break an egg on your forehead.

[manhattanite]

118. The Green Party should shut up.

If it wasn't for them and Nader, Bush wouldn't even be in the White House. For every Iraqi civilian murdered in for oil, blood in on Nader and the Green Party's hands.

[Darranar]

121. Yes, they should shut up!

Who cares about the Ohio recounts? Democracy can be ignored if Kerry isn't advocating it!

:eyes:

[Tinoire]

126. Nader & the Greens voted for IWR? Thanks for the news flash!

What a crock of kaka.

The Green Party was out in the streets denouncing and protesting this war and don't you dare pretend otherwise. Where was the Democratic Leadership on the war? Too busy peddling excuses for their war votes & nowhere to be seen at antiwar protests except for brave exceptions like McKinney and Kucinich.

Say, what did you think about all the "Democrats" who were descending on activists sites like this smearing good organizations like ANSWER and United for Justice and Peace? What did you think about their scare tactics that the Communists were coming and that Americans shouldn't get involved in the protests? What did you think about the Kerry, Sandy Berger & the DNC not allowing peace signs on the convention floor and dragging Medea Benjamin away during the convention. Any thoughts on that?

Globalization?
NAFTA?
WTO?
Refusing to come to the aid of the Black Caucus in 1999?

Better yet, what do you think about the 8 years of sanctions and incessant bombing of the Iraqis under Clinton? Abright's comment that half a million Iraqi children dead from those sanctions was worth it?

Any thoughts at all? Any thoughts other than "it's Nader's fault because our shit smells like roses"?

[Darranar]

119. This has been clear for a while. It makes it quite obvious...

that the Democratic leadership is intent on appearing "moderate" for more reasons than winning elections.