Boston Globe leaves out important part of Dean's stance about pro-choice.

[madfloridian]

In the Boston Globe today, Howard Dean's position on welcoming pro-life is only partially presented. I am presenting more on it below the Globe article, as it is unfair to mention him in the same article with Roemer and make them sound alike. They left out that Dean said we do NOT change our position. He said not to let them define the issues.

To be very clear, Howard Dean is pro-choice and very clear about it, Roemer is NOT pro-choice. In fact he appears to me to be against a woman's right to choose.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/us_house/articles/2004/12/19/democrats_eye_softer_image_on_abortion/

SNIP.."Former Vermont governor and presidential candidate Howard Dean, who supports abortion rights, said the Democrats should "embrace" antiabortion voters and expand the term "pro-life" to such social issues as providing for children's medical care. "I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats. . . . We can have a respectful dialogue, and we have to stop demagoguing this issue," Dean, another potential candidate for DNC chairman, said on NBC's "Meet the Press" earlier this month."

From MTP last week:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/6702005/
MR. RUSSERT: SNIP.."Is there a way the Democrats could change their vocabulary on abortion?

DR. DEAN: We can change our vocabulary, but I don't think we ought to change our principles. The way I think about this is--and it gets into the gay marriage stuff, too. We're not the party of gay marriage. We're the party of equal rights for all Americans. You know, I signed the first civil unions bill in America, and four years later the most conservative president the United States has seen in my lifetime is now embracing what I signed. We've come a long way. We're not the party of abortion. We're the party of allowing people to make up their own minds about medical treatment. It's just a different way of phrasing it. We have to start framing these issues, not letting them frame the issues.

SNIP.."I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats. The Democrats that have stuck with us, who are pro-life, through their long period of conviction, are people who are the kind of pro-life people that we ought to have deep respect for. Not only are they pro-life, which, I think, is a moral judgment--I happen to be strongly pro-choice, as a physician--but they are pro-life more moral reasons. They also, if they're in the Democratic Party, are real pro-life. That is, they're pro-life not just for unborn children. They're pro-life for investing in children's programs. They're pro-life for helping small children and young families. They're pro-life in making sure adequate medical care happens to children. That's what you so often lack on the Republican side. They beat the drums about being pro-life but they forget about life after birth. And so I do embrace pro-life Democrats. I think we want them in our party. We can have a respectful dialogue, and we have to stop demagoguing this issue...."END SNIP

[madfloridian]

1. More from Howard Dean on this important issue.

Individual freedom should apply to abortion decision
DEAN..."I believe that the issue of abortion is a medical rather than a political decision. I don't see how a government regulation that tells doctors how to practice medicine can be supported. Republicans claim that they are the party of individual freedom, but they are the first to tell other people how to live their lives.
Source: Winning Back America, by Howard Dean, p.142-3 Dec 3, 2003

Q: Where do you stand on the partial birth abortion ban?
A: In the four years between 1996 & 2000 there were no late term abortions performed in my state. Late term abortions are very rare and should never be used except to save the life or health of the mother. I just don't think the government ought to be making personal medical decisions for Americans. No respectable physician would ever do a late term abortion except for the most serious reasons. That is why I did not support the President's bill
Source: Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A Nov 6, 2003

SNIP.."As a physician, I do not like the idea that Congress or the President think they should practice medicine. Abortion is a deeply personal decision which ought to be made between the patient, the family and physician. It's none of the government's business."
Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

The notion of "partial birth abortion" is nonsense. This is a rare procedure used only to save the life or health of the mother. We have had no third trimester abortions in Vermont in the past four years.
Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

[madfloridian]

2. Kick because many are continuing to misquote on this.

:kick:

I have more on it I will post soon.

[Capn Sunshine]

4. because they don't WANT to know thetruth

It's easier for their own agendas if they misquote things.
How this is better than the neocons, I don't know, but it still sucks when the tuth is twisted to their own ends

[Bush was AWOL]

3. Most Democrats said the same thing

they just said we should welcome people who refer to themselves as pro-life to the party. What is the difference between what they are saying and what Dean is now saying? Why so quick to defend Dean, but so quick to attack other Democrats? By the way, Madfloridian, I'm not just pointing you out, but moreso a trend that I've noticed taking place here since the election.

[madfloridian]

6. Because Dean is very clear, not ambiguous.

Baloney, they are not saying the same thing.
Here are the positions of the guy Pelosi Reid endorse:

Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research.
Vote to prohibit human cloning for either medical research or reproductive purposes. The bill would make it illegal to perform, attempt or participate in human cloning. It also would ban shipping or importing cloned embryos or products made from them.
Bill HR 2505 ; vote number 2001-304 on Jul 31, 2001

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad.
Vote to adopt an amendment that would remove language reversing President Bush's restrictions on funding to family planning groups that provide abortion services, counseling or advocacy.
Reference: Amendment sponsored by Hyde, R-IL; Bill HR 1646 ; vote number 2001-115 on May 16, 2001

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Vote to pass a bill that would make it a federal crime to harm a fetus while committing any of 68 federal offenses or a crime under military law. Abortion doctors and women whose own actions harmed their fetuses would be exempt.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Graham, R-SC; Bill HR 503 ; vote number 2001-89 on Apr 26, 2001

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions.
HR 3660 would ban doctors from performing the abortion procedure called "dilation and extraction" . The measure would allow the procedure only if the life of the woman is at risk.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Canady, R-FL; Bill HR 3660 ; vote number 2000-104 on Apr 5, 2000

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
The Child Custody Protection Act makes it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of obtaining an abortion.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Ros-Lehtinen, R-FL; Bill HR 1218 ; vote number 1999-261 on Jun 30, 1999

[wyldwolf]

5. doesn't change the spirit of the Boston Globe piece, which said...

No prominent Democrat has suggested that the party change its long-held stance that a woman should have the right to an abortion if she chooses... some are urging a "big tent" approach that is more welcoming to those who oppose abortion.

..and Dean said...

Democrats should "embrace" antiabortion voters and expand the term "pro-life" to such social issues as providing for children's medical care. "I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats

and...

We can change our vocabulary, but I don't think we ought to change our principles.

Our principles being (From the Globe article): long-held stance that a woman should have the right to an abortion if she chooses.

Same thing.

[Bush was AWOL]

7. Exactly!

[wyldwolf]

9. A lot was written in this thread's opening post just to arrive at the...

..same conclusion everyone else already has arrived at.

[madfloridian]

11. That is what is wrong with our party today.

You just hit the nail on the head. I am backing off because no matter what I post or say, you will argue.

[LittleClarkie]

16. It's a discussion forum, it's what we do

I agree with the others. Dean said it better, but this is what most Dems are trying to say, including my beloved charismatically challenged candidate.

Bless Dean for having better words, but this is the bus most of the Dems are getting on.

I embrace what Dean is saying. The definition of pro-life needs to be expanded: anti-war, anti-poverty, pro-quality of life, anti-capital punishment, missionary to the POST-born.

[madfloridian]

10. Exactly what. These don't look like choice to me.

This is the guy that Reid and Pelosi endorse.

http://www.issues2000.org/IN/Tim_Roemer_Abortion.htm

Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research.
Vote to prohibit human cloning for either medical research or reproductive purposes. The bill would make it illegal to perform, attempt or participate in human cloning. It also would ban shipping or importing cloned embryos or products made from them.
Bill HR 2505 ; vote number 2001-304 on Jul 31, 2001

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad.
Vote to adopt an amendment that would remove language reversing President Bush's restrictions on funding to family planning groups that provide abortion services, counseling or advocacy.
Reference: Amendment sponsored by Hyde, R-IL; Bill HR 1646 ; vote number 2001-115 on May 16, 2001

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Vote to pass a bill that would make it a federal crime to harm a fetus while committing any of 68 federal offenses or a crime under military law. Abortion doctors and women whose own actions harmed their fetuses would be exempt.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Graham, R-SC; Bill HR 503 ; vote number 2001-89 on Apr 26, 2001

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions.
HR 3660 would ban doctors from performing the abortion procedure called "dilation and extraction" . The measure would allow the procedure only if the life of the woman is at risk.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Canady, R-FL; Bill HR 3660 ; vote number 2000-104 on Apr 5, 2000

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
The Child Custody Protection Act makes it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of obtaining an abortion.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Ros-Lehtinen, R-FL; Bill HR 1218 ; vote number 1999-261 on Jun 30, 1999

[madfloridian]

8. Read the stances of the guy Pelosi and Reid endorse.

If I said the sky was blue, you would say it was green. If you think they are going to continue to support choice, think again.
Roemer:
Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research.
Vote to prohibit human cloning for either medical research or reproductive purposes. The bill would make it illegal to perform, attempt or participate in human cloning. It also would ban shipping or importing cloned embryos or products made from them.
Bill HR 2505 ; vote number 2001-304 on Jul 31, 2001

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad.
Vote to adopt an amendment that would remove language reversing President Bush's restrictions on funding to family planning groups that provide abortion services, counseling or advocacy.
Reference: Amendment sponsored by Hyde, R-IL; Bill HR 1646 ; vote number 2001-115 on May 16, 2001

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Vote to pass a bill that would make it a federal crime to harm a fetus while committing any of 68 federal offenses or a crime under military law. Abortion doctors and women whose own actions harmed their fetuses would be exempt.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Graham, R-SC; Bill HR 503 ; vote number 2001-89 on Apr 26, 2001

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions.
HR 3660 would ban doctors from performing the abortion procedure called "dilation and extraction" . The measure would allow the procedure only if the life of the woman is at risk.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Canady, R-FL; Bill HR 3660 ; vote number 2000-104 on Apr 5, 2000

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
The Child Custody Protection Act makes it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of obtaining an abortion.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Ros-Lehtinen, R-FL; Bill HR 1218 ; vote number 1999-261 on Jun 30, 1999

[wyldwolf]

13. so?

Reading Dean's positions again on abortion, I'm reminded of how fuzzy they are:

Dean is in favor of HR 3660:

Late term abortions are very rare and should never be used except to save the life or health of the mother.

Source: Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A Nov 6, 2003

In his statements on abortion, Dean constantly said the issue was none of the government's business.

But it is - to keep it legal.

So, what are Dean's positions on the other issues you raised?

[madfloridian]

15. The life of the mother is an important issue. How old are you?

I am surprised you are so dismissive of that position.

[wyldwolf]

18. I'm as dismissive of it as you are, apparently

Dean said,

Late term abortions are very rare and should never be used except to save the life or health of the mother.

Source: Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A Nov 6, 2003

Yet, you fault Roemer for supporting HR 3660, which would ban doctors from performing the abortion procedure called "dilation and extraction" . The measure would allow the procedure only if the life of the woman is at risk.

Same thing!

So, again, what are Dean's positions on the other issues you raised?

[madfloridian]

12. I tried. Intelligent conversation is useless. Attacking gets results.

The usual suspects jumped in to discredit.

If you can not see the difference here than our party is doomed.

They are going to back off the gay rights issues and the choice issues....they are going to do it.

I tried, I give up on intelligent conversation on the subject.

[wyldwolf]

14. what you tried (as always) was to have a soap box to preach from...

..where no one can differ from your position. If someone disagrees, they're attacking.

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

17. "Oh no, not this again"

Just helping the madfloridian.

[wyldwolf]

19. "I'm through... I'll never..."

"..speak out against the Democrats again..."

[madfloridian]

20. If you can not see that this is not about attacking me, but about lies...

then it is not worth trying. So go ahead.

[madfloridian]

21. Keep this going.

For fun, because the content does not matter. Just going after Madfloridian is what matters.

That is hurting the party and hurting intelligent discourse.

[wyldwolf]

22. Politics are meant to be discussed...

:nopity:

...no one gets to declare themselves right and end the discussion.

[Capn Sunshine]

25. Bear that in mind

if one takes ones advice more frequently, they might find it unecessary to post.

[madfloridian]

23. From the most open-minded Democrat on abortion and choice.

Individual freedom should apply to abortion decision
DEAN..."I believe that the issue of abortion is a medical rather than a political decision. I don't see how a government regulation that tells doctors how to practice medicine can be supported. Republicans claim that they are the party of individual freedom, but they are the first to tell other people how to live their lives.
Source: Winning Back America, by Howard Dean, p.142-3 Dec 3, 2003

Q: Where do you stand on the partial birth abortion ban?
A: In the four years between 1996 & 2000 there were no late term abortions performed in my state. Late term abortions are very rare and should never be used except to save the life or health of the mother. I just don't think the government ought to be making personal medical decisions for Americans. No respectable physician would ever do a late term abortion except for the most serious reasons. That is why I did not support the President's bill
Source: Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A Nov 6, 2003

SNIP.."As a physician, I do not like the idea that Congress or the President think they should practice medicine. Abortion is a deeply personal decision which ought to be made between the patient, the family and physician. It's none of the government's business."
Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

The notion of "partial birth abortion" is nonsense. This is a rare procedure used only to save the life or health of the mother. We have had no third trimester abortions in Vermont in the past four years.
Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

[lojasmo]

24. Thanks for posting this, MF

Reid, Pellosi, and Roemer can kiss my heinie.

I'm a man, and would never encourage my wife to abort (though I'm snipped, so the chances of that eventuality are small)

I do agree with Howard on this issue, though. I feel that his statements have been much more unambiguous than many would have us believe.

(go figure)