WTF why are people still bashing Dean?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

I just don't understand it. i thought that after he came in 3rd in Iowa people wuld cool down. It seems people are redoubling their efforts to bash dean/ This doesn't make sense.

[Dookus]

1. Honestly...

I've seen extremely few posts "bashing" him for his third-place finish.

Unfortunately he gave a speech tonight that was widely perceived as being over-the-top. And not just by people here on DU. CNN has played it repeatedly, and commented negatively. Drudge has it as his top headline. We'll be seeing a lot more of it.

People are commenting a lot more on that speech than on his Iowa finish. And the speech was given tonight, so that's what people are talking about.

[shance]

4. You mean "the" CNN and Drudge? The pillars of honest, balanced coverage?

There you have it!

Wow....guess youre right.......

[dsc]

6. to be blunt

there were easily a half dozen or more negative threads before Dean opened his mouth. At least own up to what has gone on.

[jonnyblitz]

16. its amazing how people dont see what is right in front of them.

I logged onto DU after the caucus and the whole 1st page of DU was anti Dean threads.

[Maddy McCall]

7. Also WHO-TV in Iowa. Local Iowan newsanchors commented that his

performance must have been the result of fatigue.

They sat there speechless for a few seconds before commenting that fatigue must have been to blame.

[spooky3]

46. that was my perception too. Let's give the man a break.

[Ramsey]

50. CNN, Drudge...

And Clark supporters all found Dean's speech to be over-the-top. Nice company guys.

The vast majority of negative comments about Dean's rally speech last night have been made by Clark supporters. In multiple threads all on the same topic, spamming this board with their visceral hatred of Howard Dean. Save it for Bush, guys.

I saw a handful of Dean supporters express some discomfort with it. And much to their credit, I saw virtually NO Kerry or Edwards supporters pile on Dean. Kudos to those camps for their classy behaviour.

[mikehiggins]

2. And not very much gloating, either.

The speech really was disturbing even though I figured he was pulling out all the stops to rev up the troops.

Still, he would have been better off with a bit less drama.

[loudnclear]

5. When he views the clips of himself vs Kerry and Edwards, what will he

think of himself? He seems to learn very little from past mistakes and needs to eat a slice of humble pie.

[Rowdyboy]

3. It was not Governor Dean's finest moment

[joefree1]

8. Challenge the status quo

And they want make an example of you. Keeps the sheeple in line.


Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=919849
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=921300



"If you have no enemies, it is a sign fortune has forgot you."
- Thomas Fuller (1608 - 1661)

[BurtWorm]

9. It does make a certain sense, when you consider who's doing the bashing.

It's not Dean people. ;)

[dreissig]

10. Iowa Caucuses Were a Flop

The Iowa caucuses came and went, and the rest of us found the outcome ... well, quizzical. Dean is far more popular than his Iowa numbers reflected, and Kerry is far less popular. The caucuses will be written off as an aberration, and Iowans themselves will be dismissed as out of touch.

The Dean-bashing continues because at some level people reject the outcome of the Iowa caucuses. I'm pretty explicit about it, but it's obvious that other people are thinking along the same lines. The caucuses were a flop.

[woofless]

14. That's just silly.

"Dean is far more popular than his Iowa numbers reflected, and Kerry is far less popular." On what data do you base that opinion? Seems the caucus system spoke in Iowa and what it said was more people connected with Kerry's message and it's delivery than they did with Mr. Dean's. Add Sen. Edwards and Kerry and 70% of the votes went to someone other than Mr. Dean. That is not an aberration, it is a result.


edit:spelling

[Clark Can WIN]

26. The caucuses were a flop because your guy didn't win?

And now we are going to write off all the voters of Iowa as out of touch? Dean has been campaigning there for two years. He didn't have enough time to catch them up to speed?

[srpantalonas]

29. armen

[emulatorloo]

41. From an out-of-touch Iowan, a living abberation

dreissig, I've seen you post similar thoughts in other threads, and they seem a little presumptive.

We have a lot of access to the candidates in Iowa. Unfiltered access. It is not about what the media tells us to do, or some conspiracy from the beltway. It is about looking Howard Dean in the eye, talking with John Kerry, hearing from John Edwards what he has to say. It is about figuring out who has the best chance of getting rid of GWB, and who has the best plan for moving America forward past this Bush mess.

Kerry and Edwards ran really good campaigns here, moved and inspired people, and people looked at them closely and liked what they had to say.

[pasadenaboy]

11. Everyone is still afraid of him

and want to kick him when he is down.

The Kerry people realize that they are going to have a tougher time in NH because Clark will take a lot of their support.

Dean is still the front runner in New Hampshire.

It is interesting, though. I think people on DU hate him more than Lieberman.

[BurtWorm]

12. I'm testing this with a poll.

"I think people on DU hate him more than Lieberman."

[isbister]

18. No Way

I disagree, people really, really, really, don't like Lieberman.

[BurtWorm]

23. Did you see the poll?

Some people are swallowing their alleged disgust with Lieberman to get in a few more licks at Dean. :shrug:

[isbister]

27. That's suprising

I'd pick Dean

[Clark Can WIN]

28. But you didn't ask who they liked better.

you asked where their vote would go. Not always the same thing.

Admittedly for me it's damn near equal. I didn't like Joe when Al Gore picked him and he's not grown on me since. I kind of liked Dean at first but now I don't like him at all. The more I saw of him the less I liked, but he DID make very important advances in electoral politics. Credit should be handed to Dean for firing everybody up and getting things going.

[LizW]

13. That's it

Dean's still in there, and heading into a state where he's ahead. He still scares the others.

[The Traveler]

22. Scared? Naw, but ....

But Dean is certainly still in the race. It is far too early to predict his demise. His speech tonight certainly did not help his cause, but the good Doctor is still a man with a powerful mind and heart. As a Clark supporter, I may wish it otherwise **evil grin** but Dean is still very much in the race.

And, frankly, I think it would be tragic for the process if the media succeeds in letting that perhaps overly enthusiastic attempt to cheer on his supporters drown out the rest of his message. (I have to admit Dean made me cringe, but then again so did Lehane. Everyone should get to have a few bad moments without predjudice.)

If nothing else, Dean accomplished one mighty task with his campaign. He made it not only possible but NECESSARY for Democratic candidates to oppose the policies of the Shrubman and his goon squad. If for nothing else, all Democrats owe him some gratitude and respect for that.

Make no mistake ... I am pulling hard for the General ... but if this process works properly then the best ticket will be formed, and it may or may not include Clark. Obviously I believe it will. Think me not indecisive when I admit I could be wrong ... my point is just that after the convention, we're gonna have to work hard for whoever wins in order to beat Bush. And that, friends, is something we gotta do.

Sorry for being so wordy. Guess I've had too much coffee tonight, again.

[Bucky]

15. Silly statement.

I don't know of anyone who's said they hate Dean. Don't be so eager to be persecuted. All you lost was an election and there'll be plenty more before this game is over. Please remember that there's a big difference between criticizing someone and hating them.

[Leilani]

17. I think you're wrong

I have posted quite a few posts to Dean people tonite to hang in there, & so have a lot of other people. This is going to be a long campaign & it's far from over.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. Tonight, Dean Merely Had His Nose Bloodied

But he let it flow freely in his concession speech.

You should consider the continuing attacks on Dean to be a form of flattery, however, as it indicates that many people feel he is still a threat. I certainly do.

DTH

[arcos]

20. Some DUers have an obsession with Dean, like the freepers w/ Clinton

Even if Dean doesn't win the nomination, they will continue to bash him and blame him for all evil.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. I'll Stop as Soon as It's Obvious He Won't Win the Nomination

After that, he really won't matter to me in the slightest.

Although I actually do think that Dean would make a good DNC chair.

DTH

[stickdog]

24. It;'s because ... because Rove WANTS to run against Dean.

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. Nah...It's Because He's Down But Not Out

And I, for one, don't like underestimating my opponents.

DTH

[tinanator]

30. good question

Dean's done. Not because a third place finish is such a fatal blow, but because his support is/was a mile wide and microns deep. Watch and see. As far as reasons to bash, his AIPAC support completely deflates his perceived anti-war position, although his supporters cant make the obvious connection between Israeli interests and Bush/corporatist aggression. The money grubbing no-brow campaign coffin approach is rather despicable on its own. His word aint his bond, and the only issue on their table is how much can you give, and how much can you give again, and how much can you give again, and how much can you...

[bearfartinthewoods]

35. on cspan i heard a young women caller say that dean's numbers

were down because tomorrow was the first day of a new semester and the students had to choose between caucusing and getting ready for class the next day. mile wide 1/2 in thick.

[One Taste]

31. Forget the guys name on CNN

but he made a really good point about Dean's post-Iowa speech. (paraphrased) "This will be the first look alot of the American public has at Dean, on morning shows like this, on the evening news tonight." Dean really just did not look presidential last night.:(

[REP]

32. Because He's Not Out

Sure, I'm disappointed about the result, but I also remember that Clinton didn't win Iowa, either and all the dire predictions about his campaign. Others may be remembering the same thing.

[Kahuna]

60. Clinton didn't campaign for two years in IA.. Clinton didn't..

run in IA having only entered the race in October. Please stop comparing Clinton to Dean. Apples and oranges.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. They're still terrified of the left.

And, well they should be.

[LWolf]

34. A counter question:

Why don't you just let the OMG EVERYBODY IS ATTACKING DEAN meme die?

If you hadn't noticed, Dean people spend way more time, space on the front page, and bandwidth talking about "Everybody attacking Dean," than actual attacks. Unless you don't consider any criticism legitimate, and have to label every disagreement with or criticism of him an "attack." If so, brace yourself for a long primary.

The amount of time Dean folks spend either: 1. Horrified over "attacks," or 2. Talking about how Howard Dean is the only viable candidate, antagonizes people. I didn't see open attacks on Dean here at DU until people got sick and tired of having the "All Dean, all the time" DU network on the front page.

If you really want to do your candidate some good, back off.

Acknowledge with your actions and attitudes that Dean is one of a crew of viable candidates, and that he doesn't own the nomination. That good democrats can legitimately support other choices, without an armageddon scenario.

And realize that everything is not about Dean. Our choices are not about Dean. He is not the center of the universe. He is an important part of our primaries; he is not the whole thing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. you nailed it

Unless you don't consider any criticism legitimate.....

[Padraig18]

36. There wasn't a LOT of bashing, but the LEVEL of vitriol was amazing.

I didn't see the amount of Dean-bashing last night that some people claim; I did, however, see an almost unprecedented level of vitriolic hatred from a few posters that I found absolutely revolting, and I hope it cost them some warnings and/or 24-hour time outs. We can all probably figure out who I am referring to, since they are the same predictable group of ass hats who feel that their mission in life is to search out every bit of slime and post every RNC opposition-research fax blast about Gov. Dean they can. In short, they know who they are, and so do most of us.

OTOH, I received MANY kind e-mails and read MANY very kind and supportive statements here last night from supporters of other candidates. Two of the nicest--- two that stick out in my mind--- came from supporters of both Sen. Edwards and Gen. Clark. Reading them made me feel MUCH better about our disappointing third-place finish and helped me put it into perspective. I am pleased to say that it reminded me that just because they support someone else doesn't mean that the vast mjority of posters here are not nice people, because they are.

:)

[jonnyblitz]

39. sorry Padraig at one point the 1st page of GD2004 was nothing

but venomous thread after thread of people mortified over the Dean speech. I don't know where you were but it was full on assault.

[Padraig18]

40. I saw.

I also saw that it was the same 1/2 dozen ass hats who were behind all the threads, jonny. Consider the source, mate, and let's move on. We have an election to win next Tuesday, and wallowing in this stuff won't help us do that.

:hug:

[edzontar]

42. Last night was a disgrace. I think DU has become a very different place

From the haven that it once was.

And we all know where the attacks are coming from, since they onlt began to appear in this form in the past three months, and half of the people who posted the attacks had the names "Wes" or Clark" in their names.

So that is it, as far as Clark is concerned for me.

I am not even sure i would vote for him in the GE anymore.

Good work, guys.

[jonnyblitz]

52. yup

things sure changed after the blog invasion. :hi:

[Hep]

37. It makes perfect sense

Bashing Dean is what got Edwards and Kerry the top spots. So why not continue?

[PVnRT]

38. When was Edwards bashing Dean?

That's news to me...

[spooky3]

43. He wasn't. On NPR the hypothesis they put forward was that

Gephardt and Dean were going after each other, and when that happens in a 4 person race, the two who were not in that fight benefit. So they said that Edwards and Kerry benefited from the attacks between Gephardt & Dean.

[Hep]

45. BS

Kerry went after Deanas well.

Edwards benefitted from staying relatively clean, but also from his Deal with Kucinich, which remains a mystery to me.

[Hep]

44. "We don't need people like YOU"

"coming down here and telling us what to do."

[spooky3]

47. Look, I really don't want to fight with you so this will be my last

response on this. I feel bad for all the Dean supporters because of the nasty bashing and how the media always goes after the front runner. But Edwards was not bashing.

Dean is my #2 guy, Edwards #1.

Edwards was RESPONDING to Dean's comment, and he was perfectly within his rights to do that. As for the content, I agree with him that Dean's comment was ill-considered at best, and Dean ALSO agreed later. As a person who recently moved to the South, I can tell you that Edwards' reaction is absolutely typical of others here who believe that people from other parts of the country talk down to them sometimes. And they do.

Had Edwards gone on the offensive, i.e., when given his softball opportunity during a debate, if he suddenly tried to maintain that someone from Vermont was unqualified because Southerners would not like him, that would be unfair. He did NOT do that.

[Hep]

49. Be willing to call a spade a spade

Surely you aren't trying to convince me that Edwards couldn't come up with a less vitriolic way of phrasing that. It was an opportunistic move, but no less an attack than any other.

[bearfartinthewoods]

48. i guess some dean supporters just cannot conceive that after

a year of getting to know dean, the people of iowa found him wanting.
much easier to try and blame anyone other than their candidate. i guess i can sympathize but that thinking does nothing good for the dean campaign because it gives away power to other people.

he has the power to retool but first, a period of honest reflection. rather than deflection of responsibility is required.

[Hep]

51. Some cannot, but that's not me, thanks.

I love how people that enjoyed participating in the constant criticism act like they never did anything wrong. I love how the very people that got screwed by the media in 2000 now not only buy into the media's clowning, they actually join in.

Dean has his shortcomings, and I know what they are. But to act like this is all Dean is just like acting like it was all Gore in 2000. To ignore the media's role and the role of those who set their sights on Dean from the moment he took the "front runner" status is wishful thinking.

[LizW]

54. Give it a week

No candidate has had to withstand the media onslaught Dean has. Clark felt it a little when he first entered the race, but they laid off him when he decided not to go to Iowa.

When the media starts taking apart the Iowa winners, lots of people will remember what "Goring" is, and how much it sucks.

[Hep]

57. And if there's a god

they will feel like idiots for playing that game.

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. my point is the media is the media

and they will do what they will do. there isn't a damn thing any of us or any campaign can to to change that except limit the material we hand them. last night, dean handed them a plate full.

he had the power to knock them back on their heels with a great performance but decided to go for a different approach. that's not my doing or anyone else on this board's doing. he chose how he wanted to portray himself.

i'm not sure what you want from us. the whole country is reacting to this. are we supposed to act like it didn't happen? if we don't talk about it, will it make it go away?

[Hep]

58. Come on.

The media is the media, right.

The question people, especially HERE, have to ask themselves is: Did they play along? Did they serve as the media's rubes?

The answer is a resounding yes. And just like the media, they act like they had nothing to do with it.

So yes, the media is the media, but people have a choice. They can buy into the medias clowning, or they can keep their distance. Oh how I wish the archives here weren't erased.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. Why are DEAN PEOPLE still bashing everyone else?

Many Dean supporters are bashing other candidates, people who support other candidates, the media, the establishment that "controlled" the caucuses, those "stupid" people in Iowa, freepers, Republicans, etc., etc.

Blaming others changes nothing. Dean was given months of great media coverage (compared to everyone else in the race), pushing John Kerry out of first place in the polls for many months. My candidate, Dennis Kucinich, has gotten a ridiculously small amount of media coverage, despite the high quality of his ideas. CMB and Sharpton were also short-changed. The media decided Dean would be their "liberal" and their "anti-war candidate." Do we like it? No. Do we think it's Dean's fault? No.

In addition to good media play, Dean managed to raise a ton of money, get lots of supporters going to Meet Ups for him, and secure a lot of good endorsements. What more could you ask for? That elections be called off and Dean declared the winner because his supporters love him?

Dean supporters have relentlessly posted thread after thread after thread about Dean's fundraising numbers, meet up numbers, and endorsements, plus thread after thread decreeing that Dean was "unstoppable" and the rest of us should "deal with it." Now he lost in Iowa -- a state where he should have won BIG after all the money and effort put in -- and you're complaining because all of us haven't shared your grief? How does that make sense?

[RetroLounge]

59. Who the fuck cares anymore?

They just don't have lives, I guess?

[Moderator]

61. Locking...profanity in the subject line....

DU Moderator