The election: stolen or not?

[NoPasaran]

Poll question: The election: stolen or not?

I personally am of the opinion that when all is said and done, we just plain lost.

Others, I know, think that we won but a diabolical conspiracy snatched it away from us.

What say you?

[bobweaver]

1. Rigged rather than stolen

[Dora]

23. Puke in the soup: rigged=stolen

If the election was rigged, then it seems to me only logical to say that it was stolen.

If the election was rigged, you cannot say that the outcome was honest. Or that the election was fair, except for a few cases of vote maniuplation.

It just ain't possible to puke in the soup, and then say it's okay to serve.

[Skittles]

45. RIGGED *IS* STEALING

nt

[FloridaPat]

2. Third time in a row. Is this a great country for thieves or what!

[GOPBasher]

3. They stole it with black box voting machines.

[daveinchi]

4. Thoughts:

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that the federal employees that were dispatched by the Bushies to "monitor" the polling places did a heck of a lot more than that. With a little help from Diebold and ES& S, it would not require a terrifically vast or terribly masterful plan to alter the election, just a few tens of thousands of votes in the right state (Ohio) is all that it would really take. But of course you don't have to take my word for it. Hoop-de links.

www.blackboxvoting.org
www.gregpalast.com
"http://forums.alternet.org/bin/motet?show+-ujsTlc+-ila+The_Future+7+-25-"

We lost the election, not because we got fewer votes, but because we didn't do everything we could to make sure our voters were counted and that the process was free and fair.

Regardless though, even if there wasn't a single fraudulent vote counted, the fact remains that millions upon millions of people came out on November 2nd and voted Republican - still our most serious problem as a nation.

[NoPasaran]

11. Greg Palast article says nothing about fed employees

"monitoring" polling places. The alternet forums require registration... is there really "overwhelming evidence" there? And I'm sorry but Bev Harris has pretty much used up all her credibility with me.

[hwmnbn]

25. right on!

I agree. It should not have even been close! The fact that so many people voted for chimp, means there is either too much stupidity or too much malice in this country. Major problem either way.

[rman]

5. what's with "diabolical"?

-

[NoPasaran]

9. The best conspiracies are always diabolical n/t

[Guaranteed]

6. I just don't know.

I'm always inclined to think that they stole it- the polls were going our way. But there's just no evidence.

[NoPasaran]

8. We say the polls were "going our way"

But I seem to remember that by and large they showed either a dead heat or Bush leading by a few points---which we interpreted as meaning that Kerry was actually leading because the polling methodology was flawed.

[tom_paine]

13. Was the Exit Polling methodology flawed in the Ukraine?

was it flawed in the Old Republic of America from the years 1964-1996, during which it worked damned near flawlessly?

How come Exit Polling is used to calibrate emerging democracies and pinpoint Totalitarian malfeasance everywhere in the world (including most recently, the Ukraine and Russian Georgia) BUT NOT IN IMPERIAL AMERIKA.

Here, naturally, it is the methodology that is flawed.

So we further legitimize theft in our polling methodologies, which further skews an already right-skewed polling system to accept and "legitimize" vote theft.

Which leads to Busheviks taking more lierties as they KNOW they are in no danger of "losing" the "election", which leads to greater majorities against them which will lead to MORE and GREATER theft, as well as more Bushevik victim-whining about how da big bad exit pollls got it out for them.

And HOW COME there were DOZENS of reports of electronic machines recroding Kerry votes as Bush, but NOT ONE example of the other way around?

Ah, iof only the Imperial Subjects of Amerika were as dedicated to being free as the people of the Ukraine.

But we aren't. In fact, we make the perfect cannon fodder for a Bush or a Hitler, provided we are humored not in the German or Russian way, but in ways which are psychologically designed for US.

[NoPasaran]

19. DOZENS of reports of electronic machines recording Kerry votes as Bush

I am actually only familiar with this reported in Travis County, Texas, where I live. There was a flaw in the way the machine operated depending on which buttons were pressed while changing screens if the voter was voting a straight ticket. None the less, Kerry got 71,000 more votes in my county than Gore did in 2000 (Bush was up by 6,000). Any suggestion that our Democratic County Clerk, Dana DeBouviour was a party to rigging the election on behalf of the GOP requires more tinfoil than I have at my disposal to be credible.

What of the others of the DOZENS of reports? Details?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NoPasaran]

28. Every bit of my goddamned research

About Kerry votes being recorded as Bush votes has ended up being some mangled version of the Travis County story. There may be some other credible tales out there but I haven't run across them.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[T Town Jake]

43. Same old tom_paine version of...

..."debating" I see: "And THAT is as far as I will go for the internetchallenged who seem to be using certain tricks which are familiar to me"

Which translates to: Heads I win; tails you lose; now I'm going to scoop up my marbles and run off howling "freeper" at the top of my lungs...

Good to know that no matter how much things change, some things remain laughably the same...

[tngledwebb]

47. All good points.

There is strong evidence of massive vote theft, enough to launch a Congressional investigation, if we had a real democracy, or anything remotely close to a liberal MSM.

Yes, too many Americans voted Republican, but most of them thought they were voting for the MSM's soft cuddly cute 'man of principle' version of Bush, and hadn't a clue about the utterly evil nature of this regime. Yet...

Neither fact gives much reason for hope. If the Democrats in Congress do push the voting issue, we need to ensure MSM doesn't spin it into oblivion, as they are attempting already. And that is going to be the most difficult task. Thankfully we still have Mr Gore's internet invention to spread the word.

But never forget this: the MAJORITY voted FOR two 'uncharismatic candidates, with badly run campaigns' in 2004 and in 2000, because those candidates supported our core Democratic ( big and little 'D') principles, and opposed BushCo and their insane policies. That reveals much about the true moral intelligence of the American public.

[Yupster]

38. Polls going our way?

Here are the final pre-election polls by all the major polling companies. The polls showed a small Bush lead and that's what he won by.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry.html

[CTLawGuy]

42. the problem with polls is that they dont reflect

actual turnout rates. Womeone can say they'll vote for someone in a poll, but then decide to not vote on election day for whatever reason. So the election results differ somewhat from polls.


the reason we lost is because we played a passive "let Bush kill himself strategy" and we nominated a "safe candidate," who offended few yet inspired few.

If you're challenging an inucmbent, you need to give a reason why the challenger should replace the incumbent. People will reelect a subpar incumbent rather than face an unknown novice they are not sure about.

This is why we needed a Howard Dean, who was going to give a clear, strong message, that would have alienated some, yes, but it would have swayed more from the "i dislike Bush, but at least I know what hes' going to do " crowd.

[bunkerbuster1]

7. Not voting in this poll, but the bottom line for me is

that when our voters have to wait in line for eight hours, and their voters don't, that's not a free and fair election.

[LaPera]

10. They had thousands of electronic voting machines in place.

with no paper trail...when they easily could of had the machines spit out a receipt. The machines are owned, operated, programmed & serviced by self proclaimed Republicans & Bush supporters.

Does ANYONE believe for a moment, that Rove and the republicans wouldn't use and exploit this opportunity?

Just look at the election in Georgia 2002, the whole state has telectronic voting machines, they completely rigged the machines, we did nothing but make a little noise that the media never reported and they knew it would work nationwide to pad the vote. And they did.

And the corporate media, as the republicans well knew would not report it, they just went along the Rove talking points, well prepared ahead of time about "moral" issues...the more we complain about electronic voting machines with no paper trail, the more of the same machines they keep adding.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

12. We just plain lost.

This wasn't like 2000. There were shenanigans no doubt, but not nearly enough to overturn the election. It sucks, but we lost.

[LaPera]

16. Yes, like they used the thousands of electronic voting machines with no...

paper trail, that recorded tens of millions of votes fair and squar?

The same machines that are owned, operated, programmed & serviced by self proclaimed Republicans & Bush supporters.

Then why have no paper trail from the machines?

None are so blind...

[Cobalt Violet]

18. Do you have some figures on how many couldn't wait in the...

2-10 hrs. lines? Is that acceptable? Isn't that enough to rig the vote? Why was this allowed only in Democratic districts? Majority black Democratic districts?

[jdots]

14. Is this a real question ?

[JI7]

15. maybe in Ohio, but there is no proof

and i don't believe in an overall conspiracy.

but probably things such as not providing enough voting machines and that stuff blackwell did such as say he would not accept registrations unless on a specific type of paper. little things like this which if added up could make a difference. but we just don't have much proof.

one of the problems is that Ohio is totally controlled by Republicans. if we had even just one statewide official on our side it would be much easier but we don't. and we can't trust the feds as long as they are under the bush administration.

this just shows how important it is to get democrats elected statewide.

[LaPera]

20. The exit polls are NEVER wrong...They weren't wrong in 2000 when

the exit polls in Florida said Gore won.

Even, the disgusting republican Dick Morris admitted the exit polls are never wrong.

The Republicans site the exit polls in the Ukraine as proving there was fraud there.

When have the exit polls ever been wrong here? Election after election they are right on the money.

Until these republican owned electronic voting machines that are now in place, and more on the way came into play, that purposely have no paper trail.

How are you going to recount the vote to be sure there was no fraud, with these machines.

I'll always go with the exit polls and the fact that if they can very easily manipulate & cheat with these machines that they own, they will.

Why then did the republicans talking heads and the media insist that the exit polls here were wrong and don't mean anything, so uniformly and on cue right after the election?

Do you trust Rove & these machines and that the exit polls were wrong?

[Yupster]

40. Well the exit poll in New Hampshire was certainly wrong

or do you really think Kerry honestly won by 12 %?

In 1988, the exit polls said Dukakis won Pennsylvania and all three networks called it for him. They had to quietly change it on their maps the next day in time for the 5 o'clock news.

Last time Senator Bob Smith won his reelection, the exit polls showed him getting slaughtered. All three networks called him a loser a minute after the polls closed only to have to take it back late that night.

Exit polls have not always been right, and the guy running them even explained why they weren't right this time.

But it doesn't make any difference. People who believe in this kind of stuff aren't going to change. They'll go to their graves believing it.

Any evidence against it will just prove the conspiracy was even bigger than they thought.

Any people dismissing it will just show that the conspirators got to them too.

That's just how conspiracies work.

[proud patriot]

17. I am of the opinion that

"we was robbed"

between disenfranchisement and Partisan Election officials
who break the law that is the conclusion I have come to .

[greenohio]

21. Count the votes at the precinct by hand, on video, with reps from each

candidate present immediately after polls close.

[impeachthescoundrel]

22. We certainly were robbed

I don't care how much you try to rationalize it, the fact is that I wouldn't trust that bunch of liars if They held a gun to my head.

[NoPasaran]

26. This sounds great, but....

My county has more than 260 precincts. That's a lot of representatives candidates would have to find. And we may have several dozen races being decided. That's a lot of observers to cram into a polling place. Plus of course, we have early voting and those ballots would need to be sorted out and presumably transported to the appropriate precincts.

I have nothing against hand counting paper ballots. But I think for reasons of practicality it would be best to do the counting at a central location.

[greenohio]

29. Central vote counting= fraud

The moment the ballots leave the building, all bets are off. We're stilling finding missing lots of ballots in WA. How can this happen?

You have one or two well placed people at the county board and you have a winner.

As for absentee ballots, let those be counted at the county office, video taped with reps from each candidate present.

Yes, it requires more work to have faith in elections. The question is, do we want faith in our elections?...or are we looking for the least amount of work?

[NoPasaran]

33. Well, I don't know how things are in Ohio

But in Texas early voting (distinct from mail-in absentee balloting) accounted for more than half of the total---so we're back to the central location being decisive anyway.

Do you really believe that videotaping some thong is some sort of safeguard against hanky panky? I think that shows a lack of imagination.
:hi:

[greenohio]

35. The idea is to decentralize so that it takes a

large, easier to spot conspiracy to fix the election.
Many countries have similar counting methods.

Lack of imagination is normally characterized by tearing down others ideas without offering any decent solutions of your own. Case in point.

[Spacemom]

27. Shrub

has slimed and weasled his way through his entire life. Why should an election be any different?

Stolen with unverifiable black box voting. :(

[Generator]

31. Will we ever know?

Will we ever trust what they say?

It's broken..the trust is robbed. It needs throwing out and fixing.

I'll say it again: if the poor and minorities got their votes counted, got the same equal access to voting as the rich and white then John Kerry would be president.

It's that simple.

Define stolen. It's all in your definition.

There are certainly not more of "them" than us. More voters, perhaps. But I would like proof. That is never going to happen. (full proof and disclosure) It doesn't fit with the mood I saw on November 2nd. I'm not saying I am correct, I'm just asking for proof-when everything looks like it's going down the rabbit hole.

So I'll live in my fantasy world thinking most Americans are not deluded and fooled by propaganda. That just enough of them got it. But it didn't matter because their votes were thrown out.

And I put those that have power in this country as being above nothing. I trust nothing they do or say. Nothing. Nothing the media says. This country has been propagandized to a tee.

Why should I believe the numbers they tell me?

[kamqute]

34. MUCH too simplistic

This isn't just an issue of taking something out of context. Either answer, I think, does not work. Besides, even if there are more of them than there are of us, that doesn't mean they all voted. Finally, it is not a matter of opinion whether we won or lost. It is a matter of disputed fact. You can therefore say that you surmise that we lost. And of course a diabolical conspiracy snatched it away from us, because regardless of what fraud occured or not, the diabolical conspiracy of Rovies and AEI types and our national media have so tarnished our conversation as to make a Bush victory plausible in the first place.

[Padraig18]

36. We had our asses handed to us. n/t

[Karenina]

37. All the world is in "Shock and Awe"

Watching America sloshing around in the stinking muck of her citizens' STUPIDITY, BLINDNESS and WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

[RafterMan]

39. And hey

Who wouldn't vote for a bunch of folks who think they're blind, stupid and ignorant?

How could those yokels reject such magnanimity? They must hate us for our freedom.

[Karenina]

48. Have it YOUR WAY

at Burger King. Karma is a bitch...

[bling bling]

41. I knew it from about 1:30 a.m. on 11/3.

Stolen. There are few things I've ever felt so strongly in my "gut" about. Bush's cronies fixed both of the elections.

[Skittles]

44. not just stolen but BLATANTLY STOLEN

nt

[Dees]

46. Is it too much to ask that we the people

have honest and fair elections in this country? It's my moral obligation and right to question methods and practices used in the the presidential election. Let's see now...given the history of the Repthuglican Party...I'm to believe that touch screen boxes, with unverifiable tallies, developed by companies with an avowed commitment to * were not tampered with? Since when has the Rethuglcan Party not grabbed and taken (by deceit) anything left out there so large, so self enriching and valuable. I don't have hard evidence but I say something is very stinky. I'm tired of being rolled over.