Dean's Problems from a former supporter

[Quixote1818]

As a former Dean supporter let me tell you why I left. Don't get me wrong because I still love Howard Dean but he made a lot of mistakes that turned me away. You are free to disagree but I hope you will allow me to be a Devils Advocate and try to help your candidate.

First, I feel Dean spent way too much time telling me what he was against and not enough about what he was for. That's just not presidential in my opinion. I feel he would divide and polarize the Democrats and Republicans and create "deadlock" in Washington. I felt he positioned himself way too far left to have a chance in a general election. I felt he was week on National Defense and as someone who was originally for the War but later turned against it I understood how the other candidates could vote the way they did based on the false information the Bush administration was giving us. I later turned against the war as the debate heated up. Every time Dean made a big deal about him being the only person who was against the war from the beginning and hammering those who voted for the war and changed it was like he was hammering me because that's what I did and that's what most Americans did. To be honest while I love Dean I just found it almost impossible to vote for him. I began to see him as George Bush's dream candidate.

Right now I am planning to vote for Clark who is an outsider mostly because I think Bush will have the hardest time running against a peaceful General, first in his class at WestPoint. Someone who dedicated his life to service for very little money. Someone who came from nothing. Someone who has run a positive campaign about hope, integrity and looking out for the little guy. Every time Dean called Clark a Republican it just made me think "hum that would make Clark even harder to beat." Clinton reached out to the middle and Clark has that same apeal. I also like Clark because I have children and in this violent, scary world I feel Clark has the experience and smarts to best fight the war on terror. I didn't feel safe leaving this in Dean's hands. So having children made Dean less appealing because more than anything I want my children to be safe. On most issues Clark and Dean are very much the same. It was not issues that drew me to Clark but Clark's message of hope and his credentials.

My second choice is Edwards because I think he has charisma as good or better than Clinton has. He is positive has a positive message and I get a good warm feeling listening to him. My concern with Edwards is what he has to offer on National Security. I think an Edwards/Clark ticket could be a winner however.

Kerry is my third choice because he is like Clark but Clark is like a superstar and Kerry seems sold but not special. Another Washington insider. I don't think Kerry can beat Bush. I think Clark and Edwards can.

My advise to Dean would be to start taking more about what he plans to do rather than what he is against. What makes him unique and how that will help him be the most effective at taking us forward. He says he can take back America but then what is he going to do once he gets it? He needs to stop talking about being against the war, as it's an insult to people like me who saw things like Kerry then slowly turned against the war. I can see why Kerry voted for the war and never held that against him. Everyone I know feels the same way. This was never about who was the most against the war. It's about who best can handle the war on terror and will have the charisma and charm to bring Democratic ideas to the table and sell them. Clark and Edwards have the charisma to sell what the Democratic Party has to offer Dean will create deadlock in my opinion. I will always love and admire Dean and I want to thank him for energizing the party base but I have to go with the best candidate. The person who would make the best president and would run the best against Bush. That candidate will probably be Clark but Edwards is a close second.

[candy331]

1. Well since you want more of the

same then let no one stand in the way of your vote. Some of us are for change and know that the same slickers are not going to do anything different. It sure is easy to travel on a trail blazed by someone else.

[nofurylike]

5. well said candy331 - concise, to the point. thank you for sayiing it. n/t

[Quixote1818]

10. More of the same what?

That statement was about as vague as George Bush in a press conference. What will Dean bring to the table that Clark and Edwards can't? No one seems to be able to answer that. Give me your plan? I promise you I am open-minded and ready to hear what Dean's plan is. Clark and Dean are very much the same on the issues in fact Clark is to the left of Dean on most issues but still comes across as a centrist so this becomes about the messenger’s communication skills and experience and integrity. Clark has shown me how he will carry my values and have the moral authority to push them through and have a chance to win. Dean has shown me that he will create deadlock and polarize the country and my values will end up like Hillary’s Health Care plan. Besides, Clark is just as tough on Bush as Dean is and Clark is just as passionate about helping the little guy and everything that matters to me as a Democrat. Dean does not have a lock on standing up to Bush if that’s what this is about to you all. Actually, I think all the candidates have been just as vocal and tough on Bush as Dean has. This is about moral authority and Clark has walked the walk in a way the Republicans can't attack like they can Dean. That's the difference. You can’t attack someone who represents everything that Americans hold dear to their hearts. Love of country, war hero, duty, hard work, looking out for the little guy. How do you attack that? How do you attack someone who has all the qualities you lack?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

18. Dean *is* more of the same

that's why I can't support him. I don't think getting a right-wing governor who is a social liberal is the way to play to the center.

[Clark Can WIN]

2. Let me be the first to welcome you aboard with Clark

And give you a belated welcome to DU as well. Beyond that. Kudos. Everything you just said, except for Kerry not beating Bush. I think Kerry and Clark have the best shot at Bush with Edwards close behind but tougher for him because of his boyish good looks. I love the guy but the lack of foreign experience is a big snag right now.

[stickdog]

3. I agree and disagree. Bush bashing is a great pasttime and the media

has boycotted.

Therefore it is up to our candidates to pick up the slack. The electorate needs to be beat over the head about this because the media keeps acting like Bush is some well-meaning benefactor.

Dean's best selling point has always been his ability to take it to Bush and clearly point out why Bush has been a disaster for this country. The problem is when he deviated from this and started asking for his props because he did it last year. A campaign is a fluid thing. You can't point at your supposed laurels too much.

He needs to communicate more than a vague sense of empowerment. He needs to stop positioning himself and simply tell us who he is, what he cares about most and how he, of all the candidates, has the brains, guts and independence to make the tough decisions that anyone will have to make to clean up after Bush's mess.

[Hoppin_Mad]

4. Please show me any post anywhere on the WWW from the

Period when you were a 'Dean supporter'

[Quixote1818]

11. I am new here

As you can see by the number of my posts I am new here and just began posting last week. I made the switch to Clark in mid December after Saddam was caught. If the war had continued to go as bad as it was I might have stayed with Dean but things changed after Saddam was captured and I began to give the other candidates a second look at that point.

[Hoppin_Mad]

13. You can't convince me you ever were a 'Dean supporter'

With transparent efforts like the following. I actually LAUGHED ALOUD when I read your post !

"I felt he was week (sic) on National Defense and as someone who was originally for the War but later turned against it I understood how the other candidates could vote the way they did based on the false information the Bush administration was giving us. I later turned against the war as the debate heated up. "

I also like Clark because I have children and in this violent, scary world I feel Clark has the experience and smarts to best fight the war on terror. I didn't feel safe leaving this in Dean's hands. So having children made Dean less appealing because more than anything I want my children to be safe. On most issues Clark and Dean are very much the same. "

Sorry, but to me, your tale of 'conversion' is not the least bit believable or convincing, let alone effective. ( in my humble respectful opinion only )

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[Hoppin_Mad]

19. I do not beleive you one bit ! -nt-

[Quixote1818]

22. Just Remembered I did mention I was a Dean supporter

If you look at "Was Dean phenomenon a media creation" you will see that I mentioned that my Dad and me were both Dean supporters early on.

HA!! HA!!! HA!!!!

[Hoppin_Mad]

24. But you only decided to join DU after your 'conversion' - right ? -nt-

[FredScuttle]

23. Why would you lie?

Why would * trot out Zell Miller? "Democrats for Bush" ring a bell?

[aquart]

6. "War on Terror"?

If that's the way you think we're dead at the starting gate.

How can you have a war on a tactic? Or an emotion? Huh? That is the way to endless idiocy fighting shadows.

If we cannot rephrase and redefine our necessity to protect our people and our borders from partisan groups seeking media attention by the use of horrific murder, Bush wins.

NEVER CALL ANYTHING BY REPUBLICAN TERMINOLOGY.

Language is the high ground in this fight. Do not ever let the Republicans seize the high ground. Every time they open their mouths with a catch phrase or a talking point, REPHRASE it and attack.

For instance: The so-called war on terror is a deliberate and determined assault on American civil rights and PRIVACY. HOW DARE THEY SAY AN AMERICAN CITIZEN CAN BE DECLARED AN ENEMY COMBATANT AND DENIED ALL RIGHTS! Always come back to that.

If they whine that you're weak on terror, remind them that you never had a business partner named bin Laden like Bush. And what was George Sr. doing with the Bin Laden family on 9/11 btw? See? Rephrase, attack. It's easy and fun. Try it.

But don't let Karl Rove choose your words.

[Melodybe]

7. You are correct! Our campaign is not as bottom up as it seems

we are missing that very important middle part called the trunk. The high ups in our campaign think that they know what is best. I have met Zephyr and let me tell you see was pretty happy ignoring everything I told here and completely writing me off. I still am a big suporter inspite of it. But now I am scrambling to get in touch with any of my connections. I blame myself for not touting my industry connections when I met Zephyr. Maybe she would have actually listened to me.

Just in case you're interested: My aunt Bonnie used to be married to Wes Craven (they have two kids Jonathan and Jessica, Jonathan is a movie producer and Jessica is a singer) and my grandfather is one of the most famous scientists living today. You may not know him but he is pretty important. Dr. Wallace S, Broecker, go ahead google him. He was responsible for biosphere 2,helped Gore on his book, won the National Science Medal in 1996, and tons of other important sciency things. Wes is a real jerk and I don't look forward to calling him to get some industry numbers if I can't get through Tripi via Zephyr.

Anywho, I am bugging folks big time to try to talk to Jow Trippi, god knows somebody needs to.

I worry that since the Late Night shows scedule way in advance we may not get to appear on any of them for at least a week, let alone in time for NH.

Deanies we need some serious PR work quick, pray for me.

[roguevalley]

9. Well, no matter how you slice it, reflection is in order. Kerry was 'dead

in the water' a few days ago and he took this. Of course, it isn't
like a primary. No one is having to say out loud who they want and
why in a primary. This is now wide open and I think it is good. I
want Mr. Dean to have more time to refine his views and how he wants
them to be laid out. Not having the cushion of front runner is a good thing this early on. Losing Iowa doens't mean you're out. It means
that someone else takes the blows while you retool.

I like them all. I admire them all. Gephardt was a good man for many years and he went out with grace. New candidates and old ones, we have good people here. Some had a good night tonight. Some didn't. It is the way this works. Mr. Dean has to rethink and retool and he will. He has a passion for this, as do the others. No one here is out of the race, in my opinion, besides Gephardt, Lieberman and perhaps
Kucinich. Its a question of money now. No fundraisers will go to someone who can't go the distance and get the votes.

It is down to Kerry, Dean, Clark and Edwards as serious candidates in my opinion. The next three outings will put them to the test and I think it will come down to a tight three going into a brokered convention. We are overlooking a phenomenon here that cannot be discounted nor ignored.

People are guaging all of the field and voting for who can take out Bush. The turnout was huge this time around, indicating a deepseated
feeling among the rank and file that no matter what it takes, no matter who I REALLY want, I will vote for someone who WILL TAKE OUT BUSH.

Now, partisans and supporters will feel its their boy. In your heart, you believe your boy is the best. However, this is the rank and file.
They will choose who THEY think will do it and that is how this thing happened today. That is the core of the thinking I believe in the democratic party today. Hold your nose and pick the one best placed to take out junior, letting all the more 'lofty' things such as what you want and what you need for your own personal agenda go. Such is the quality of our people, dems are choosing the best placed, rather than the best one for them.

This cannot be discounted and if any of the candidates think they can ignore it, they do so at their peril. Get bush out. <Mantra> I would tack toward that howling gale if I were running. I would tell what I would do and highlight how I wasn't Bush.

[Awsi Dooger]

8. I'm afraid Dean imploded tonight, and is finished

His "state recital" speech had to be an absolute dream for Saturday Night Live. Can you imagine the parody they are certain to do next week? If so, clips will be replayed all day Sunday and destroy any rehab Dean has managed in New Hampshire.

Quixote1818, I concur with most of your key points. I'm an Edwards supporter who was extremely impressed with Dean early last year, until "Dean spent way too much time telling me what he was against and not enough about what he was for." Exactly, and fatal nationwide. The pivotal swing and independent voters DO NOT HATE George Bush, a fact never fully appreciated on a specialized website like DU and especially by Howard Dean loyalists.

[Quixote1818]

12. Dean's "State Recital" speech

I don't know what show it was but they showed the Dean speech several times making fun of it already. I really think Dean will have a hard time recovering loosing by 20 when he was the favorite and then that speech.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. Welcome to the Clark Campaign, Quixote1818!

:hi: Nice to have you here on DU! Welcome!

[funky_bug]

17. Welcome

Welcome to DU!

Welcome to the Clark camp!!

Welcome to the battlefield. Expect MUCH more of what's being dished out to you today...sigh... but hey, if you're on the battlefield, it's best to have a general leading the way, right?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. Dumb thing I have seen: Dean advertising on the INTERNET!!!

what a waste of money. He already has people on the internet.

[JanMichael]

21. Clark is NOT an "Outsider".

Good gawd almighty. Neither is Dean either.

Both are very rich, very well connected, "players" whether we like to think they are or not.

Most Generals, Governors, Doctors and Senators, are not "ordinary" people. Most are not even in the same world economically compared to a good 90% of Americans.

Every time I here another millionaire proclaim that they're fighting to take back Amerika for the Working Class I want to puke.

[Auntie Bush]

28. But poor people with no connections don't get elected

So then what do ya do?

[Schmendrick54]

25. I think there is some good advice in here. Thanks.

Hi Quixote1818,

I think you picked a bad day to post advice to Dean supporters. We are probably not in a receptive mood today. Nonetheless, I think much of your advice is sound. If it is not phrased carefully, the criticism of supporting the war at first could alienate some voters who might otherwise vent their outrage at Bush for lying to them.

In defense of Dean, I think he has spoken a lot about what he stands for -- but you have to do some work to find it. The soundbites that get promulgated on the SCLM are the juicy bits where he criticises Bush (and more recently the other candidates).

In any case, good luck to you in your support of Clark. I look forward to working with you in the general election for Clark, Dean, Edwards, or Kerry.

Best regards,
Schmendrick

[Quixote1818]

26. You are welcome

Thanks, I certainly don't hate Dean I love him and I just wanted to give you my thoughts to help out. Dean just needs to refine his message a little bit and start talking more about what he will do once he takes America back and stick to that message. People want campaigns run on vision and hope not on what's wrong with the other guy. Dean should still stick with the "Take Back America" thing but start hitting home "here is what we will do once we get it back!!!!" In my opinion that will resonate with voters including myself.

Imagine him on the stump:

"We are going to take back America from Bush and when we get it back the first thing I am going to do is this. The second thing I am going to do is this. The third thing I am going to do is this and so on and so fourth.

He needs to create a vision in our brains as to what America will be like with him as president. Also he needs to work on how he will get along with Republicans to accomplish this. Pound away at his Democratic ideas and what America will be like with all those ideas in place. For example: “Imagine a country where we are no longer 33 in the world in infant mortality behind Cuba. We are the richest country in the world and we should have the lowest infant mortality rate in the world!! A country where anyone can get the health care they need. Imagine no more parents worrying about thear children getting the care they need or worrying about how they will pay the doctor when little Jimmy comes down with the flu and needs to go to the clinic. Imagine all those empty hospital beds because children and adults got the preventative care they needed before they got really sick.

I would respond to this kind of picture being painted in my head. This is my advise to Dean who has awesome ideas but has not sold them enough.

[K8-EEE]

27. Excellent Post, I Agree With You On A Lot Of It

Although I am still undecided between Edwards, Kerry & Clark, Dean is off the list for me as of yesterday. He just tends to go off and say wacky stuff like the Confed Flag thing or whatever....he's just not a good enough speaker/politician to be a good candidate.

[Auntie Bush]

29. Welcome... and that was a very good analysis

A while back it was asked of Dean suporters...why do you support Dean? I noticed that hardly anyone responded with an issue on how he could help this country. Most all the reasons given were that he had lots of money and a massive organization...but nothing regarding issues. I was going to comment on this but was afraid of being flamed...plus I really didn't want to say anything negative about Dean as I too had been one of his early supporters.

[Auntie Bush]

30. Welcome... and that was a very good analysis

A while back it was asked of Dean suporters...why do you support Dean? I noticed that hardly anyone responded with an issue on how he could help this country. Most all the reasons given were that he had lots of money and a massive organization...but nothing regarding issues. I was going to comment on this but was afraid of being flamed...plus I really didn't want to say anything negative about Dean as I too had been one of his early supporters.