You don't wanna pay higher taxes? Then YOU'RE unpatriotic, not us

[mtnsnake]

THAT'S the message the Democratic party should be conveying during campaigns when it comes to taxes instead of taking the same old losing approach we always do.

For all the idiots in this country who don't realize that a certain level of taxes is a necessity when it comes to running a country, the Democrats have failed miserably in EXPLAINING to them in simple black and white WHY we need more tax money. Those idiots, the ones who voted for the chimp so they can enjoy their $250 tax breaks, do not understand squat about what the country loses because of these miniscule tax breaks for them and the obscene tax breaks for the wealthy.

If we're going to continue being the party of taxation, then why in the F*CK don't we paint ourselves as being patriotic and proud for doing it, since we're the ones who want to sacrifice a few extra bucks for the benefit of the good ole USA.

Instead of justifying our stance on taxation like we have in the past, we need to take a brand new approach, one of explanation and one of humiliation:
1) Inform all the idiots out there that taxation is a fact of life when it comes to building strong countries. Believe it or not, most Americans don't know this simple fact. They think the government is simply stealing their money for the fun of it. They need to be made more aware of what we ALL stand to lose if taxes continue to be reduced.
2) Treat the issue of paying taxes as an issue of HONOR, not one of shame.
3) Equate paying higher taxes with personal sacrifice, freedom, and democracy.
4) Tell the idiots they have a choice. They can either continue to get their minimal Republican tax breaks and watch the country continue to go down the crapper, or they can be patriotic like us Democrats....and not whine about the taxes they have to pay.

The Dems need to turn the tables and paint the other side as being unpatriotic, because it's THEY who'd rather have a couple hundred dollar tax break than help the good ole USA.

Hey repukes, you don't wanna pay a few extra bucks of taxes? Well then YOU'RE the ones who are unpatriotic, not us. Pay your taxes you damn traitors.

For our own benefit, when it comes to tough issues like taxes, etc, it's time to start labeling the other side for what they are: unpatriotic traitors who are out for themselves and not their country. I'm sick of being the ones always labeled as being unpatriotic for doing the right thing. If we really want to win votes, it's time to start pointing the finger in the right direction...and it's time to start shaming THEM.

[trotsky]

1. "Equate paying higher taxes with personal sacrifice, freedom, & democracy"

It used to be that way. The richest Americans wanted to help the country in WWI and so helped institute the income tax via constitutional amendment.

[Maple]

2. I think it was

Oliver Wendall Holmes who said 'taxes are the price of civilization'

[Commendatori]

3. Sorry, no sale

I understand your sentiment, but I won't even hear of higher taxes until I see a reduction in spending. The government takes in more than enough to run this country effectively, it just doesn't spend wisely.

Cut some waste - like, say, in the military and some of these new dumbass "homeland defense" initiatives for starters - then come back and talk to me. I pay more than enough (especially for the fucked up government we have now) and will not accept that paying more is somehow virtuous when so much which could go for good is wasted on bullshit.

[pnb]

20. Amen brother

But I would expect nothing less from a fellow Islander fan. :-)

Throwing money just for the sake of it is still wasteful, no matter how you frame it. Responsible spending like you mentioned are the things that should come first.

[driver8]

40. BlueOyster...I'm with you.

I agree that a certain amount of taxes are required to run the government correctly, but these idiots in office now couldn't balance a checkbook.

Our money is being pissed down the toilet for this war...not to mention the money being spent so Shrubya can have a boat.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...won't get fooled again!

[kentuck]

4. I like your idea but....

it depends on how it is "framed", as always. We could anticipate the Repub argument of liberals never saw a tax increase they didn't like, etc....

But, to frame it as "the country is in dire need of revenues to meet the spending binges of this Adminstrations but they refuse to ask their supporters to pay for what want". They would rather ask our children to pay for it. It is not the patriotic thing to do....

[Prank Monkey]

34. A Patriotic Investment in the Future of America

Not an original idea (Lakoff talks about it - I seem to a be a huge Lakoff booster here on the site today).

No matter what, you've got to remember that this messaging needs to be soundbited, and all the other bits of information you want to convey need to be tied back into that single soundbite that will become the new frame.

If you could talk about what gets done with taxes and call most taxes an investment in America (wanna talk ownership society?), then what could be more patriotic?

[FloridaPat]

5. $200 + billion for Iraq Invasion and $500 billion for useless

Start Wars defense plus $350 billion for the pentagon just to get throught he year. And we need more tax money for what? The pentagon lost a trillion dollars! This is where all that money is going. At this point it's patriotic not to pay taxes.

[mtnsnake]

7. Exactly, and that's why there needs to be EXPLANATION

It's us Democrats who are always associated with wanting to "steal" more money from the common people, when the reality is that it's us Democrats who need to be portrayed as the patriotic ones of this issue.

As long as we have the same tax issue on our platform that we do, we need to paint ourselves as being honorable and patriotic for doing it.

[uncle ray]

8. but the rethugs don't see it that way

the freepers are no doubt bitching amongst themselves right now about the millions, MILLIONS! of aid we will be sending to some asian countries, while mere billions are being spent to export the democracy we don't even enjoy here. they think all THEIR money is spent on social welfare programs, and the war money grows on trees.

[GOPFighter]

6. I see where the tax money goes

I've worked for the federal government for over 30 years and I'm constantly amazed at how much the government does for Americans. Most people don't realize how much our economy and safety relies on the government.

Unfortunately the US government doesn't have a public relations department that runs ads on TV telling everyone what we do. All of the major corporations spend millions of dollars a year promoting their products, but the only thing people hear about the government is negative stories and snide remarks from partisan politicians about how worthless the government is.

[greenohio]

9. What branch do you work?

I think hearing details would help some.

[GOPFighter]

12. Dept. of Commerce/NOAA

But I work with people from a lot of other agencies. Also I have friends who work in other agencies. I can only speak for the civilian agencies I deal with, but 20 years of budget cuts have squeezed out most of the fat, and wasteful programs.

[greenohio]

18. What examples of fat and

wasteful programs were there? I never really believe the govt was as fat as the repukes were saying.

[GOPFighter]

33. It wasn't fat as much as...

...inefficiencies. Our management is a lot sharper now and money is being spent to upgrade computers, etc.

[China_cat]

10. I don't understand how people can think

that running a government is any different than running a household.

I don't see anyone saying 'yes, go ahead and cut my pay, it'll be good for the country and I'll be able to do all these other things as well as keep up on my current obligations on less money'.

[mtnsnake]

11. You see, we always take the wrong approach

What we have to do is put it to them something like this:

"What's more important....the couple hundred bucks you'll get from Bush's latest tax cuts, which are just a means of buying your vote...or the welfare of your country"

[China_cat]

14. Well, we won't

be getting any bucks from Bush's latest tax cuts. In fact, for the first year in the 31 years of our marriage, we're going to have to pay. What they've withheld from the 2 jobs my husband is working (and getting paid only half of what what he was getting before his former job was sent elsewhere) is less than half of what we owe according to the new tax code. So, 2 years out of work, now working 2 jobs for less than the 1 was paying (that's combined, not each) and we're getting hit with one whopper of a tax bill.

It's not any comfort, either, to know that we're not the only ones.

[mtnsnake]

16. That's why, even if it's wrong

that that's what's happening to you, the Democrats have to portray any future tax increases as being patriotic.

My point is, that it's not just this issue that we need to approach differently with our rhetoric. We have to start associating some of our other issues on our platform with self-sacrifice and patriotism, too.

[China_cat]

19. I understand what you're saying

I've just never understood why taking care of people first is supposed to be such a BAD thing. Why paying your bills is a good thing for your family but a BAD thing for your government.

[greenohio]

13. Not sure this will fly

very far at all.

[mtnsnake]

15. If that's the case, then we have only one other option:

If we can't associate higher taxes with honor or patriotism, then we have no other choice next time but to call for lowering taxes ourselves and playing the game of "buying votes".

Back to reality....
The tax issue is killing us as much as any other issue, and if we stick to this issue, we have to approach it in a way that shames the other side into seeing it our way. If we can't shame them, then we have to abandon this issue from our platform altogether, or we lose again. I say we stick to our issues, but shame them and label them, and portray them as the "anti's".

[greenohio]

17. I think there are other options

What turned me off was the term "shame." I believe a majority of Americans will respond to a call where they see a need and a working/workable solution.

The tax issue kills us, I think, because there is still the image of government waste. We address that image, and I think people would be more willing to pay more taxes.

[mtnsnake]

23. It's all about perception

The repukes have been very good at conveying us as being weak-minded, tax-raising anti-Americans. The issue of taxes is just one example.

We need to turn the tables on them; we need to get tough; we need to "shame" them like they've shamed us. We need to convey to the country that OUR stance on taxes is the RIGHT stance and PATRIOTIC because it's for the good of the country. The truth is that THEY, the repukes, are the ones who are weak when it comes to making the hard decisions that have to do with things like taxes.

Our Democratic leaders have failed miserably in explaining WHY there is the need for a certain level of taxes; they've failed miserably in explaining WHY we're right and the repukes are wrong when it comes to hard decisions like taxes; they've failed miserably in portraying THEM as the ones who are anti-American or unpatriotic.

All I'm saying is if we're going to keep harping down the same road when it comes to issues like taxes, we need to change the entire perception of WHY, and the sacrifices involved. We need to come off as proud instead of defensive. We need to be the ones coming off as patriotic instead of as weak little wussies. To do this, we need to stop and explain...and explain it in layman's terms that anyone can understand. Any time there's a tough decision that involves self-sacrifice, we need to tell them "We do what we do because we're proud, patriotic Americans."

[inslee08]

26. The problem

Except...the Democratic Party does not admit that raising taxes is good policy (with a few exceptions of course). The party suddenly proclaiming that taxes are good will cause us far more losses than this new rhetoric would. Maybe over 10-20 years, the rhetoric might start working, but don't count on it.

[mtnsnake]

28. Here's the thing, though

The Democratic Party doesn't HAVE to admit that raising taxes is good policy or that taxes are even good, period......just that they're necessary. We need to change people's mindsets. That is, we need to explain that we're NOT tax lovers or anything...just that we're proud to sacrifice whatever it takes for the good of the country, and if it means paying higher taxes, then so be it. That alone would differentiate us as being patriotic if you will, and the other side as NOT.

My point is that we need to turn the tables on them with the labels and with the anti-American bullshit they always spout about us. This is one way we can do that. It's like killing two birds with one stone. With our toughest issues, we just need to use the right rhetoric. If we're savvy with our lingo, we can make ourselves out to be upstanding patriotic citizens, and them to look like the selfish traitors that they are.

If we're going to continue with the current tax policies of the Democratic platform, and we should, then we need to stand up and be proud about it. To act proud, I believe we need to use the type of rhetoric I'm talking about.

[Prank Monkey]

35. No, this is wrong

Taxes are bad in people's minds right now, and you can't win on the issue if you talk about them as a necessary evil. That just keeps them bad in people's mind, and you won't get people to see your way if they think something is bad for them.

You've got to change the way people view taxes themselves. See my post up top about Taxes as "an investment in our country."

[mtnsnake]

38. I didn't say they were a necessary evil

just that they're necessary.

And as long as they're necessary, and as long as we believe that, then we need to make it sound like it's pro-American to be willing to pay whatever is necessary when it comes to taxes. If we're going to continue with our present tax positions of the Democratic Party, then I damn well wanna act proud of it, and I want to start labeling ourselves as pro-America for doing what it takes to support a country like ours tax-wise. Too often our leaders in the past have acted almost ashamed of our tax ideas and tried to find ways of "competing" with Repukes on this issue, which just doesn't work.

In voter's eyes, taxes are perceived as a negative for Democrats and a positive for Repukes. I want to reverse that perception, and all it takes is the right rhetoric as I previously suggested....a form of rhetoric that makes our position on issues such as this come off as being pro-American. Easy as pie.

[Prank Monkey]

42. Semantics?

I'd certainly agree with your sentiment, but your presentation still leaves taxes seeming burdensome to me. There's nothing in your own language to make me proud to pay taxes. That is the bone I'm picking here - you are not writing what you are saying.

[mtnsnake]

43. You don't have to BE proud to pay them. Just ACT proud.

Like I've said several times before, it's all perception.

[SemperEadem]

30. also

they've been successful at avoiding answering why some repuke pols sneak pork into bills, who they are, the state they live in and why it was done. The people need to understand, as was mentioned in another thread, exactly where government subsidies come into play to make it easier for people in this country, such as putting food on their tables for their families (subsidizing farmers).

Granted, there is a lot of waste going on in government and since the repukes are in charge of all branches, it seems, the magnifying glass needs to be turned on them and closely examine the needs they claim this country has--usually corporate welfare--contrasted to the needs the people of this country have.

For example: bailing out the airlines when they should have been made to perform in an equal capitalistic marketplace--the strongest survive and the weak ones go out of business or get bought out. Whose bright idea was that to go along with handing out welfare checks to the airlines? That was waste.

I agree with the line of thought that you have--the conversation needs to be reframed and steered in a direction which puts dems in a stronger position. It's time for us to stop allowing knee-jerk fear mongering thugs from defining us and making the definition stick.

'Murkins haven't been hit between the eyes with the truth about the lies they are swallowing about * and their actually getting to sit down and have a beer with him since they voted for him in this election--no one has put it to them, effectively, that, as my daughter says, "you ain't got it like that, boo".

Until that happens, they're not going to see that federal programs aren't free rides from the government--the interstate highway system isn't free; FEMA isn't free; federal insurance of their bank accounts isn't free; cheap food isn't free; these are all brought to you by your tax dollars---and when your time of need happens, you expect your government to step into the void for you---well, taxes are what makes that possible.

[Mabel Dodge]

21. I applaud this post

I’m tired of tax whiners; this country needs money to run on. I hate the war and I hate Bush even more, but I love my country. I put money in my house to keep it from running down, why begrudge money spent to keep the country in good shape? If the citizens want services, then the citizens have to pay for it. As my Mother use to say, “There are no free lunches”.

[mtnsnake]

29. What you said, Mabel, is exactly what our leaders need to

stand up and shout about. Just as you stated, "If the citizens want services, then the citizens have to pay for it", this needs to sink in. There are too many people who simply don't realize that.

If we're going to continue with our present tax stances in our party, then we have to be proud about it. Too many times our leaders act almost apologetic about the tax thing, and it shouldn't be that way.

[FormerDittoHead]

22. Get This: they want a National Sales Tax

I agree. The only way to win this is to make paying taxes patriotic.

They've made taxes a bad word, however. 40 years ago the phrase "class warfare" to defend the rich would have been laughed as because, you see, THEY'RE WEALTHY - THEY'RE the WINNERS. But thanks to media control they've gotten this to stick with middle America.

Want to lose an election? Promise to raise taxes, even if it's just for the wealthy. I'd be interested in a contempory example of this not being true.

The stealth plan is, however, to bankrupt the gov't (they certainly haven't been cutting spending, eh?) and to set things right, institute a "fair" national sales tax. It would be "simple" enough for the red-state high school dropouts to figure out and it "sells" via a perverted sense of "fairness", as "dem there lazy blacks will have to now have to pay taxes as well as us "rich" truck drivers!"

Of course, by definition, the rich don't spend all their income, and whatever surplus they have will therefore not be taxed (or maybe they'll spend it on vacation overseas and it won't be taxed THERE!), thus, you have yet another regressive tax like Social Security, where the richest pay a lower percentage than the poorest hamburger flippers.

With no inheritence taxes, (note another phrase twist, "death tax") the wealthy will be assured generations of work-free luxury while the burden of paying to protect it (military, laws, etc) will be paid for by the lower classes.

Ahh, it's all so "FAIR" and "SIMPLE" isn't it?

...and the founding fathers said there'd be no ARISTOCRACY... How wrong they were!

[crasmane]

24. I would be happy to pay higher taxes

provided I knew that my money would go to help people get health care, get educated, get fed, & get housed.
Taxes have no business paying for wars of conquest and state terrorism against the American people and foreigners.
Taxes should not be raised for the middle-class & impoverished to pay for breaks for businesses & the elite.
If the American people had faith and saw the benefits of policy, they'd pay taxes without one peep of complaint. The only ones complaining would the greed-beetles of the right, the people who do not deserve our trust.

[inslee08]

25. I agree but...

I certainly agree with your argument, however Repubs could easily argue that what we're arguing for is a socialism. (Whether or not any of us here support a socialism for the US is a moot point because it won't and can't happen here).

It's hard to equate taxpaying as patriotism if the money goes to pork. If any candidate is going to be able to use this argument, they also have to be able to effectively control pork (or at least believably say they will). I think it is possible to say that higher taxes during "wartime" is patriotic, however. Remind people that the "great" presidents were the ones that *rose* taxes effectively (Wilson, Lincoln, FDR, etc).

[SemperEadem]

31. then let them argue

when an natural disaster hits and they need help with their home because the insurance company is screwing them over... they can expend all the hot air in their lungs arguing about how unfair it is... since they are against taxes, they should be proud of not turning to FEMA to help them out. They shouldn't take one dime from the feds, since it's tax money.

yeah, they'll posture until it's them who needs a 'hand out', then we all are supposed to understand.


They're hypocrits.

[youngred]

27. I think this is a fantastic idea

in the past a President has always called on the people for sacrifice in times of crisis. Since there is not much profit in sacrifice this President has neglected the call to duty, thus hampering the United States ability to fight the war effectively (putting more troops and our reputation in danger) and ruining our economy and government purses.

[rfkrfk]

32. stop attacking the politicaly helpless

Why does everthing the Dems want in the matter of taxes,
ends up being an attack on the unorganized, ignorant, or
'victim to be named later'.
.
...example...
tax on jet fuel for international flight is zero, not one penny
-->
some people think that poor who push a lawn mower for a living
are undertaxed.

[MadHound]

36. I agree with you in principle, however

While I recognize the need for citizens to pay taxes, I am adamently opposed to any new taxes, or any increase in current ones. The sole reason for this is that we, as a country, are spending entirely too much money on military concerns, when quite frankly there is no need to. We haven't learned a damn thing from the former Soviet Union, who spent themselves into bankruptcy pumping up their military muscle. We're doing the same thing here in the US, and if it doesn't change soon, we'll wind up with the same result.

Not one penny more for taxes until the government cuts military spending by 25%.

[wadestock]

37. They ARE paying their taxes.....you got this all wrong

Being patriotic has nothing to do with any of this.

The majority of people will continue to pay the same relative amount in taxes. It is the SMALL MINORITY who will be paying LESS AND LESS IN TAXES.

It is the upper few percent that are gaining.
Your taxes and my taxes aren't going to change that much.
They didn't even change that much during Clinton. IT WAS THE UPPER ESCHELON THAT GOT HIT DURING CLINTON, NOT THE AVERAGE PERSON.

I'm going to simplify this for you and then please give it some serious thought. Rummy, Rove, and all the other dumb ass Reaganites are out to cut taxes so the rich can take more money. The upper 1% now controls 50 trillion in taxes and with money and power they will be able to exploit the middle class as a "purchasing class" and not an "ownership class".

In their ideal model, you will simply live on credit, work until you drop, and own nothing....therefore have no power in key decision making.

The way things are working now, your taxes are not going to be raised significantly one way or the other. The only thing which is happening is that as less and less revenues come in with tax breaks to the rich, the country goes more and more in debt....AND the country has less and less available for relevant services and investments. Because the country is more and more in debt, your INTEREST PAYMENTS each year in your federal income taxes will progressively INCREASE. As they increase, less and less of your taxes will go to any relevant services. Your real estate taxes will go up. Your costs for health care and everything else will go up.

Your country is not investing in its middle class or relevant technologies/solutions that will allow us to compete in the future global market. Our standard of living is now #3 in the world and will drop further each year the repukes are in power.

What you have to do is change the mantra of "paying taxes" from getting ripped off to one of smart investing and then you'll have something. Forget the patriotic idea...it's simply smart business.

[mtnsnake]

39. Forget the "patriotic" idea?

I'm really not sure if you're missing the point of what I'm suggesting or not.

After reading your post, I gather that you'd rather continue down the same old road with us Democrats getting slammed with all the wrong labels all the time. I'm sick of our party being labeled anti-American, unpatriotic, blah blah blah. It's time to turn the tables.

Look, it doesn't matter one bit whether taxes are good, evil, necessary, or in between. What matters is that WHATEVER position we take on them, we need to approach it like we're the ones being patriotic about it and THEY'RE not. When we adopt ANY tough issue, taxes or anything else, we need to adopt the type of framework and rhetoric that conveys the message to everyone that Democrats are doing this because THEY are the ones who care about the country, and Republicans DON'T.

[moindependent]

41. How are taxes a smart investment?

I don't really care how the government spends my taxes, if they would just take less of what I make. I'm perfectly capable of giving money to churches and charities, feeding the poor and whatnot.

Investment in government would seem to be an exceptionally poor choice to me. It's an inefficient business model by nature. Everything is done by committee, with no accountability to speak of. Dictatorship is the only form of government that will ever come close to efficiency.

Obviously, no one wants to see a dictatorship in place in this country, so the only way to gain efficiency is to isolate the goverment from as many functions as possible. Let the feds tinker with interstate commerce, national defense, and enforcement of the constitution as written. Eliminate the feds from education and social programs; leave those to the states. Shift the tax dollars to more localized government, where you should have more accountability.

Finally, let market forces decide where I want to live and do business. Drive the states to compete for industry and people.

[wadestock]

49. Open your mind

You're obviously one breath away from sliding into a ditto head funk.

EVERY democracy needs a progressive tax system for self-regulation....to aovid the mess that we're in right now...where too much is going to the top. The middle has not only stagnated in this country...it is losing ground. We are soon to fall to #3 in living standard, and #2 in economic power. We are moving to a society in which only the rich will be capable of owning a house and sending their children to college. ASSETS have shrunk in the middle class over the last 20 or so years with an exception of a few years under Clinton. The system is....BROKEN.

So...the first critical adjustment necessary is to raise the upper rate back to where Clinton had it...at about 40%....and even this is considerably under what other countries have (Canada and several other European nations) which hover around 50%.

You are very gracious in your willingness to feed the poor. In your list of gratuities...are you going to provide health care assistance to people? Would you opt for people to work until they drop in place or would you be gracious enough to invite them to live with you when they become seniors and can't afford housing or food?

Our culture is self-destructing. Look around you. It should be astounding that many people are now accepting the notion of working longer, harder, for less benefits, and with no guarantee of retirement benefits. One's own personal health is even being ignored for some bull crap belief that those who own the store can't afford to give those who work for them benefits. It's reached a point of pure sickness.

The Reaganite model of rich trickling jobs and benefits to those under them has been conclusively proven false....it's just that an insufficient number of Americans are tuned in to this obvious fact. Businesses are not even giving Americans JOBS now....if they can get cheaper labor overseas.

So wake the freak up buddy. We need the government now more than ever. Probably more than any of us would normally be championing for now, but for the shear fact that over 20 years of bull crap in the wrong direction has to be undone.

Will it take another depression to inspire another "new deal"?
You say that's not possible? I say it's potentially within 10 years of happening if we continue on the current course. The middle class is living to a large extent off credit, spending money off of home eq loans, etc. There are signs that the money is already drying up. Our last depression occured to a large extent because money was owned by the upper class and those underneath them didn't have any money to spend. As our public loses jobs, and those jobs become lower in pay, and people have less and less money to spend, we move ever closer to this breaking point.

We are now in sore need of government assistance in these critical areas:

1. Put people to work on projects that aim at improved transportation. It's a win win scenario and an investment in the future that would not happen by private enterprise. Many other logical "solve critical problem" projects have worked in the past to revitalize economies here and many other places around the globe. If you don't understand how these can be beneficial and how they can be "smart investments", you'll have to take a course in history and do a bit of research.

2. Invest in education. Unless you're living under a rock you might notice that kids are coming out of school now with 100K or more loans to pay off...and then suddenly no job. Government regulation and control of education will be necessary because it obviously hasn't succeeded in educating our public. I think something like 40% or less of Americans now have college degrees, and unless we can get control of the rising costs or perhaps inspire training in other trades or vo tech type careers, we will soon be falling to second rate world status. Our education system is broken. Private industry ain't gonna fix the problem.

3. Tax breaks for companies that give Americans jobs and produce products here rather than outsourcing. One of the best "tweaks" our government can accomplish right now to inspire a culture of "made in America". This entire culture which now revolves around buying crap Chinese made stuff has cost us dearly. Not only are we giving away the store, we're getting pure schitt products in return. Private industry ain't gonna solve the problem. Private industry, out of control, has caused the problem.

4. Invest in health care. Our health care costs are high because we don't have effective PREVENTATIVE coverage, and we have people running to emergency rooms to get regular health care. One of the best investments our government can make (once again can't be accomplished by private industry) is to mandate this preventative care and help with tax breaks to those companies that provide better health care options to employees.

[wormhole]

44. no more taxes, cut spending, look at classic federalism

the size of the federal government is insane, any scholar of american history will tell you that it was never meant be this large, nor taxes this high.

why do we assume raising taxes is the answer? why not cut spending, SERIOUSLY cut it, lets reduce the size and scope of the federal system back down to pre 1900 levels.

this needs to happen.

[mtnsnake]

45. Whoa. You're on a completely different topic

Sorry, but it's got nothing to do with raising taxes or whether or not taxes are too high, too low, somewhere in between, or good or bad. I'm talking about changing the perception of how our stance on taxes is received by the general public. If we're going to continue being stuck with the tough stance we've taken in regard to taxes, which just happens to be the RIGHT stance, then we need to convey the type of perception that comes off as being pro-country, pro-American, or pro-whatever instead of being labeled the opposite by the other side. It's THEY who should be labeled negatively for this, not us, and all it takes to accomplish this is a little well-placed rhetoric in the right places. We need to act prouder and bolder about our stances on tough issues.

[wormhole]

then make this case - "Balance the Budget or Destroy America"

raising and lowering taxes is relative ...

you ought to be making the case "If you are NOT for balancing the budget, you are unamerican and are destroying this nation" ...

hell, you'd even get centrists, libertarians, and some newt-contract with america era right wings to join your banner with that phrase.

[wormhole]

46. then make this case - "Balance the Budget or Destroy America"

raising and lowering taxes is relative ...

you ought to be making the case "If you are NOT for balancing the budget, you are unamerican and are destroying this nation" ...

hell, you'd even get centrists, libertarians, and some newt-contract with america era right wings to join your banner with that phrase.

[mtnsnake]

47. There ya go

It just goes to show how a little bit of rhetoric can change the perception of what you stand for.

[dansolo]

48. Bush blames deficits largely on the War on Terrorism

So the Democrats should turn that around and proclaim that everyone who supports Bush's War on Terrorism should be willing to support it by paying higher taxes.

[NewJeffCT]

50. Your argument would get killed!

You need to frame it simply!

Taxes pay for your highways, your clean water, taxes make sure your food and drugs are at least reasonably safe, your public schools are of decent quality, taxes pay for your state universities (I bet a lot of those red staters would be upset if good ole State U went belly up & couldn't field a good football team anymore!!)... taxes pay for snow removal on your roads, clean-up after hurricanes and other disasters, help to fight forest fires, taxes pay for our postal system, which is one of the best in the world...

and on and on.

[mtnsnake]

51. How could it possibly get killed

when what you posted is the pretext to what I've proposed.

I've already implied that taxes are necessary to sustain the things you've listed. What I'm doing is simply extending it beyond that and saying, look...we Democrats realize that taxes are necessary, and as long as they're necessary we need to re-phrase our stance on them so it puts us in a light of being pro-American about it, instead of simply being regarded as tax raisers all the time.

[NewJeffCT]

53. i'll tell you why

1) The RW will frame it as a tax increase for everybody

2) Nobody wants to hear about sacrifice being needed. Maybe in World War 1, the rich could be shamed into an income tax, but not today with Fox News, CNN, the Washington Times & RW Hate Radio framing the debate.

[mtnsnake]

55. It doesn't matter, though

Just because hate media might frame the debate the way you're concerned they might do, it's no reason we should just sit back and let them frame IT or US in THEIR words or with THEIR labels. We need to fight back, and the way we can do it is by making our stances on issues like this be portrayed as patriotic stances, and by applying our own patriotic labels to our own issues.

[NewJeffCT]

56. I agree we need to fight back

But, not by calling for sacrifice. Tax traitors is fine, millionaire's tax is fine as well. if we call for Americans to sacrifice, it will be like putting the noose around our own necks and then asking, "how tight can you make it?"

How about "infrastructure investment"? That way, if Republicans oppose it, they are against investing in our infrastructure.

[mtnsnake]

57. Yes, and whatever ways we do it

we simply need to change the perception of our stance from one of being negative to one of being positive. As things stand, our stances on tough issues like taxes, etc, all too often come off as being negative...when we instead need to re-frame our rhetoric in such ways as to make them convey positives.

All I'm trying to do is associate our stances with positive images like patriotism or even self-sacrifice (although I know you don't like that word sacrifice, lol) or ANYTHING positive, intead of always being perceived as the opposite (negatively).

[PurityOfEssence]

52. Call 'em "TAX TRAITORS"

It's got a bit of a bite.

Taxation is not punishment, it's billing for services rendered. Those who don't pay their bills have many names (rich language that English is) such as freeloaders, moochers, bums and a host of others.

You are quite correct; the idea of impugning their masculinity and prosperity is also a great angle. Real men pay their taxes; wimps and weasels mooch. If you're doing okay, it's no problem to pay the bill. The only ones who won't pay their bills are either failures or dicks.

[mtnsnake]

54. Bingo!

Real men pay their taxes; wimps and weasels mooch. If you're doing okay, it's no problem to pay the bill. The only ones who won't pay their bills are either failures or dicks.


If only our Democratic spokesmen would expand on that!