Why would a whole bunch of Americans vote against their OWN SELFINTEREST?

[opihimoimoi]

Of the 59 mil or so that voted Bush, about 55 mil of them actually lose money and opportunity.

The Fed Debt now 7.8 trillion will be about 11 to 12 trillion when Bush leaves office. Our children will be paying off that debt. The interest payments due are staggering but must be paid to remain solvent. This is against our own people and our future.

The Global Warming Bush refutes is as real as the birds fly in the air. It is for real. And as a Conservative, he cannot play it safe by implementing measures to lower the threat. After all, it is our children who will bear the brunt of the consequences. Is he that selfish? Ignorant?

Wasting our precious resources on war activities? Is he that nuts? and we allow this shit to continue and become worse? What will our farmers use to power their machines to grow food?

Is he anti education? He refuses to read serious books and thus is a dummy when confronted with complex issues...offering instead quick one liners designed to deflect distort.

Why did the red states vote for a guy who clearly is anti progress and anti education and anti environment.... and anti future?

America has been conned is the only plausible answer. We got scammed from the git go. This has happened too many times in the past with dire results. Do we forget so easily? I guess we do.

Opi's rant #334.008

[AllegroRondo]

1. In a word - FEAR

[opihimoimoi]

15. ARE WE WIMPY 'FRAIDY CATS?? I guess it seems that way

[jonnyblitz]

2. you need to read "what's the matter with kansas"

by Thomas Frank. The author gives you his theory and it is quite compelling. :hi:

[Chimpanzee]

11. Just got that as an xmas present!

[jonnyblitz]

18. ooh its good!

what a great gift!! :thumbsup:

[Hippo_Tron]

14. Remind me to get off the computer and read that book

Seriously, I have it sitting two inches away from me but I can't get off the damn computer.

[jonnyblitz]

19. I know the feeling.

of course i come to the computer with my book in hand thinking I will read a bit, post a bit, but it NEVER happens(the "reading a bit"). sigh :shrug:

[FloridaPat]

3. Have to stop those abortions and gay marriages. What's a little

economic collapse when you can save so many children. Of course, once they're born the interest goes away, but that's another story. And then apparently the other answer was God put * in office - why would we go against God.

[blm]

4. Because the GOP controls most of the media and most of the voting machines

End of story.

[GRLMGC]

5. I'm not saying there isn't fraud

but I've met people who are not going to prosper under Bush who support him anyway. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they are misinformed, otherwise, they would probably not vote against their best self interest. Many are religious and have been brainwashed into thinking that Bush is the "Christian" president. I know one person who is educated, and not rich mind you, who supports Bush. He's just an asshole though.

[Wisc Badger]

6. Wht??? Check out the Book

The Trouble With Kansas, it addresses you question in detail.

[Goldeneye]

7. Hey, why not?

I don't give a rats ass about the environment or money, because I'm a humble american from the heartland. I got a gun and a pick up truck and I like all the action on the news. War is exciting! Plus Bush is awesome. I love watching him dig holes on the ranch.

[Ronnie]

64. I think we'd be shocked

to find out how many people get off on this war. Think about it. For them, it's better than the Super Bowl. And it's unending.

[Cheswick2.0]

8. because we have a lot of very dumb people in this country

I know it makes people made when someone says that, but it is true.

[Chimpanzee]

9. In a word: Morons

[gizmo1979]

12. amen brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[driver8]

39. I second that!!

Most of the Bushies believe what the MSM tells them and they follow along like good little soldiers. They figure that Dubya has protected the country so far, he will do it again. They do not read anything but their local paper or look for other sources of information.

It is sad, sad, sad that this is the man the country chose to lead us. An ignorant, fascist war monger who has failed (and is still failing) at everything he has ever tried.

[illflem]

10. Not that it's my belief

but I think many people felt that Kerry wouldn't have been able to do much better. bush is a known quanity even if it isn't good.

[opihimoimoi]

13. All American voters should be made to read WHAT WE'VE LOST

By Graydon Carter. Mind Boggling in how he details what America has lost under this fraud of a Prez.

The chapter on SECRECY IS MOST COMPELLING.

[LostInAnomie]

16. Empowerment

Not financial, medical, or any other kind of tangible empowerment, but social empowerment. They voted for Bush* for the same reason poor southerners fought to protect rich southerners right to own slaves. As long as there is a group of people they can keep oppressed and manage to belong to a empowered majority they will keep voting for it.

They vote against abortion because it will allow them to control other reproduction. They vote against gay marriage because it allows their religion to remain in control of other peoples lives.

It is divide and conquer and as long as people wish to stay in power instead of actually discussing merits the repubs will be able to divide us and sneak in their real agenda.

[CTyankee]

17. Carville says the Repubs have a "narrative" and Dems don't

This is reinforced by Thomas Frank in his book (which I am now reading). But I think what Carville calls "narrative" I would call "myth." It is worked and reworked ceaselessly by the media so it goes on and on and people in red states believe it to be true. We have a "real world" narrative but it's not simple enough and red staters are just not listening to anything we're saying.

[damntexdem]

20. Oh, they voted for what they knew were their self interests -- after all,

Faux News told them what those self interests were.

[newportdadde]

21. check out Frank's "Whats the Matter with Kansas?"

Its a great book I'm about half way through it now. His basic premise is that when the Democrats abandoned the worker class and moved right in the early nineties with NAFTA etc it took away their defining issue.

So without economics in play(ie Joe Sixpack thinks both are the same) they move to social issues like Gay marriage etc etc and they then vote Republican.

Its a great read and I think he really has something with his ideas.

[opihimoimoi]

22. I will, thank you

[Liberal In Texas]

23. Media Media Media

They don't hear or (heaven forbid) read anything but these con talking points over and over again.
When you talk to them, or say look at a freeper site, they regurgitate it up like they have a wire in their head to ditto-land.

These people actually believe it's in their best interests to:

invade a country that didn't attack us;

that tort reform is actually some kind of reform instead of a sharp reduction of their rights;

that there is nothing wrong with having a spiraling debt;

no minimum wage increases are better for them;

that social security needs to be fixed and they'll be so much richer when they can invest that money themselves;

that the rich guys are going to take the wind-fall $ they're getting from the Bushites and create jobs with it!;

on and on and on...

[4_TN_TITANS]

24. I'm in a red state

but my county and several surrounding ones went for Kerry. Davidson Co. (Nashville) went for Kerry.

We have to get away from this red state/blue state concept because it makes it harder to bring people over to progressive thinking. We don't want people to start identifying their state as being only red/republican. There are tons of uneducated people around me, but even they have the sense to see through Bush. Thank-god for die-hard Southern Democrats!

"Why did the red states vote for a guy who clearly is anti progress and anti education and anti environment.... and anti future?"

There's lots of reasons but ultimately, I believe that people are mentally wired to see through the smoke, or wired to fall hook-line-and-sinker for it, never questioning or realizing the facts.

Morons......

[ladjf]

25. They think that they are voting in their best interest. That's the

problem.

[SemperEadem]

26. because they don't get it that they're not the ones invited to

the big party... they've got their suits cleaned, the pick up washed and waxed, their hair done up... but they're sitting in the living room, waiting on the invite to arrive in the mail--and it's not going to.

* isn't about them... * punked them. * used them to get elected. He punked them through their fear of gays and their fear of having their faith stripped off of them. * appealed to their base stupidity and got over on them. They were bought cheap, practically for free.

They're too stupid to figure out that that tax cut isn't for them; medicaid/medicare is going to be priced out of their reach; pharamceuticals will be able to price their medicine so high, right as the companies are portraying themselves as having 'pro life' values.

These myrmidons who rolled over and voted for * are no better than $3 whores--they allowed themselves to be pimped by fear; they sucked on the big phallus of fear and swallowed every drop--now when it comes time to be paid for their 'services', * is going to have Cheney tell them to go eff themselves. They will stand there, disillusioned and unable to reconcile the betrayal when the bill comes due and they have no recourse; they will have no jobs; they will have no rights; they will have no money, but they will be full of expectations that * is one of them and would never leave them out in the cold.

But that's exactly where * is going to leave them. * punked them and they're too stupid to believe it happen to them.

[opihimoimoi]

36. Even as the Military is fighting this war their bennies are being cut

The Homeless...about 20 % are vets.

[fooj]

27. BAAAHHHHHHH! BAAAHHHHHHH!

:spank:

[zulchzulu]

28. It's easy to be stupid

Why explore the issues when you can just sit back and watch Bush negative ads and Faux Snooze...hot chicks tellin' 'ya all ya need to know...and them whooshes are so damn cool.

[Lefty48197]

29. "Vote Freedom First" NRA slogan

The NRA exploits an unjustified fear and gets people to vote for the "pro gun" party, instead of the "pro YOU" party.

[truth2power]

30. Read "What's the matter with Kansas".

There are a couple of paragraphs near the end of the book that I would post if I still had the book (had to return it to the library).

In essence he says that the neocons depend on Bush supporters never making certain connections. That is the connection between cultural issues, on which they are never going to win, and their own economic best interest.

Those who manipulate the sheep keep them worked up about cultural issues, i.e. young people walk around with t shirts that say FCUK, and the wingnuts foam at the mouth. Then Janet Jackson shows her tit on national TV and the sheep go beserk and run to the polls and LOWER her taxes.

You can find this in the last chapter or so, but that's the jist.

IMO there's an additional reason: Bush appeals to the primitive brain, where reside the survival and fight or flight instincts.

[kodi]

31. come opi, let me explain it to you

self interest can be sacrificed upon the alter of higher ideals, thus producing in the "sacrificer" a state of personal moral and ethical purity.

what the Right has done (and very well, i might add) is make economic self interest subordinate to personal sacrifice by calling upon people to place religious and philosophical values higher on the list of what is important.

by doing so a person can feel better about him/herself by offering up their own economic pain for a higher ideal.

it is a very human trait to do so and the Right has mined this aspect of human nature quite effectively.

[opihimoimoi]

37. Very good response, thank you

[48pan]

32. You Have to Know the Xtians...

They aren't motivated by self interest. Many of them are warped, but they are doing what they think is morally right. Heck, these guys give 10 to 20% of their income to the church. Then they whine about taxes.

[orpupilofnature57]

33. Altruism, an archaic thought, still a relevant occurrence, Carter not **

Any person that thinks of people is going to have to elect not to exploit, what they could. Unless you came from generational (three) workfare, millionare style like shrub,elected pa-pa,and grandpappy too.

[journalist3072]

34. Voting Against One's Own Self Interest

I will never be able to understand what causes a person to vote against their own self interests. That is just amazing to me.

You know the troop who called Rummy out about the lack of armor? He and his ex-wife are ardent Bush supporters.

So I don't feel sorry for him serving in Iraq and not having armor. He knew BEFORE the election about the lack of armor, etc, and yet chose to vote for Bush.

Go figure.

[klyon]

63. never underestimate the bigger cause

salvation is the last word, we all must be saved if possible

KL

[cattleman22]

65. RE: Understanding voting agaisnt self interests.

There can be very good reasons for voting agaisnt your own self interests. I am very proud of the whites who voted against their own self interests and passed Civil Rights laws. Why did they do this, because it was the right thing to do.

[depakid]

35. because there are so many good little sheeple

They do what Georgie and their media shepards say. Georgie will protect them from the big bad wolf.

Georgie says, now we will all jump over the cliff. And they bleat "yes" and follow, unquestioningly.

As my grandfather would say- most of them don't have a lick of sense.

[Geek_Girl]

38. Not so Bright

I live around a lot of nice people but they're not so bright. They really believe George W. Bush is a moral man and trust him.

:shrug:

[bajamary]

40. Because they want to be like them.

Ah, the great American dream, to be like "them", that's one major reason why so many middle class people vote for the "just plain folks" like W and gang. But these middle class folks want to be "them".

We all know W hails from the WASP power elite but let us not forget the effective use of "us" and "them". Sadly, at the core of this "us" is fear, racism and xenophobia.

Why do so many fear from where they came, and that which they truly and proudly should be?

Mary

www.4-my-country.com

[Debs]

41. If you figure it out

You are a lot smarter than I am

[DrGonzoLives]

42. Read "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank

He lays out the answer very well.

[gulliver]

43. Two main reasons

1. To stick it to us. To stick it to liberals, minorities, gun controllers. To stick it to blacks, Hispanics, gays, feminists. To stick it to Massachusetts, New York, and California. To stick it to France, Germany, and the world. To stick it to Muslims. To stick it to people with too many tattoos and too many piercings. To stick it to Marilyn Manson. To stick it to atheists and abortionists.

2. To stand for a vision of America they understand in a real America they no longer understand.

It's a mix of desperation, anger, delusion, and good intentions, but mostly it is an inability to cope with information in this nutty age. Bush is a conniption fit of the simpleminded. They are bloodied by Islamic picadores. They are stamping their feet and all-too-ready to charge into the swords -- and of course to drag us all into the swords with them.

They won't learn about reality through explanation and research at this point. It's all trial and error now. Better get out of the way, because a lot of American people "ain't listening to shit" now. And if we lose part of a city to a terrorist nuke, America will disappear.

[NAO]

44. They Actually Voted FOR their Self-Interest - defined as values not $$

These 'moral voters' believe they voted in their self interest, believing that their 'spiritual' self-interest is higher priority than their economic self interest.

As someone pointed on on a column here at DU, the interesting thing is that liberals who would pay higher taxes under a Democratic Administration ALSO voted against their economic self-interest - in favor of...liberal values!

[opihimoimoi]

46. Some kinda Values the Pubs have...they got caught cheating at the polls

big time.... insuff voting machines in Dem precincts, paper work hanky panky, etc etc. They lie cheat steal... then they deny. They doom their kids to behave just like themselves. Some kinda example they are.

[leesa]

70. But it IS in our self interest to vote for things that may cost a couple

dollars more in tax money and save millions or billions as a net result. Health care for everyone may cost more in tax money but it would end up saving a ton of money in the long run.

[ailsagirl]

45. Three words: Gross Cognitive Dissonance

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html

Just ask PIPA

[opihimoimoi]

47. and they don't even know it...pathetic and sad.

[MADem]

48. I think it is that "Land of Opportunity" mindset

Most of these assholes actually believe that they will win the lottery, or invent a better clapper and become the new Ron Popeil. They actually believe that one day they will achieve huge wealth, that their ship will come in. They WANT to be rich, so they think that by voting like the rich, some of that stink will rub off on them. The sad truth is, most of them are all talk, wobbly walk, but they can, and do, DREAM. Little folks with BIG ideas, and precious little follow through.

The moral shit, the fear, that plays into it as well. But I think total greed, and absolute certainty that they will somehow get lucky and get rich one day, and will not want to pay onerous taxes in that event, is what contributes to their delusional voting patterns!

[opihimoimoi]

52. Some Fine Wine and Steaks and Lobsters to you

A damn good account of what the Hell happened.

[MADem]

54. Why thank you!

Being one of those fixed income, idealistic Dems, it's been a while since I've had such a fine meal!!!:toast:

[Lexingtonian]

49. You assume they consider themselves the living

but if you look at them carefully enough and long enough, they are the Undead. They are deeply jealous and full of hatred of the people who actually live, who have a promising future. They understand in some strong way (though they'll never use the kind of language I use here) how spiritually void they are and that the society they form- the colonial-ish one- has no future, only more repetition and more suffering of the disease that makes them want to possess everything and not Live anything. It's a painful condition, all about comparisons with others of their kind rather than creating anything. But they are mean enough to not want people who have Life to have anything else of the world.

I agree with almost all the answers people have given in this thread, actually. I render it in my strange theological language.

Come, they cannot steal the Sunsets, those are ours forever. :-)

[opihimoimoi]

53. Would resentfully jealous come close??

[Still_Loves_John]

50. I heard a really interesting response to this once

I think it was Mark Shields. He was with a panel of mostly liberal columnists why they were voting Democratic--against their economic self interest. It's because of social issues. Lots of rural poor put something symbolic like gay marriage over economic issues. Now, this doesn't mean that we need to change our stance on social issues, but if we keep letting them dominate elections we'll lose. We need to argue economics like they argue social issues. Make it an issue of morality and fairness. What people are really responding to in those social issues is the moral fervor, people like to really have a cause, and we need to argue progressive economics with a real fervor to win over swing voters.

[MADem]

55. Very good point

And particularly in the ole Bible Belt, put all economic issues in the mix with a dash of WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

Would Jesus leave the poor, the sick, the hungry, the forsaken, by the side of the road, would not JESUS offer aid, assistance, a gentle hand, and certainly JESUS would not EXPECT anything in RETURN! The old camel and the eye of the needle, and what not!

There is a GOP politician down in TX somewhere who raised these very issues....I don't know how he did in the elections, but at the time that he brought it up, it went over like a lead balloon. Don't know if he kept on with the theme.

[cattleman22]

66. One problem with what would Jesus do.

Jesus worked with private organizations and not government. Red Staters already tend to give more to private organizations than blue staters do.

[MADem]

68. He had to, though

The government was the enemy, after all...they put him up on the damn cross! Jesus lived in an occupied land! There was no freedom on the march!

[Skittles]

51. STUPID STUPID STUPID

nt

[slay]

56. The BushCo tactic all along was to bring out the worst in people.It worked

Divide and conquer. You know the drill. Many people have told me stuff like "christmas just doesn't feel like christmas this year." My reply was consistent every time. "Hard for it to feel like christmas when the grinch is in the white house".

[opihimoimoi]

58. LOL ,,, I LUV IT

[janx]

57. BECAUSE THEIR POPULAR MEDIA REMIND THEM TO BE SCARED.

.

[opihimoimoi]

59. GOES TO SHOW WHO ARE THE SCARDY CATS

Oooops, sorry for the caps

[dolstein]

60. Perhaps they have a different set of priorities than you

Perhaps they're less interested in their tax bill than they are in having a "good man" in the White House. Of course, their idea of a good man may differ from yours and mine, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with this criteria. After all, do we really want voters to vote based purely on their own self-interest?

[earth mom]

61. They voted to preserve their own little narrow world

because it's "oh so perfect" after all. They can't accept or appreciate anyone who is "different" then them. So they voted against all the REST of us who they consider to be: immoral, lazy, unchristian, perverted, intellectual, unpatriotic, bleeding heart user losers who are-gawd forbid-liberals!!!

[ReelBigSpikey]

62. Dems vote against own self-interest too...

I think that progressives shouldn't really be shocked that
people vote against their self-interest.  Many liberals are
quite rich and would certainly pay more taxes under a liberal
government (it would be quite difficult indeed to lower the
taxes any more on the rich--they are already at rock bottom). 
Why do these liberals vote against their own pocketbooks? 
VALUES.  But the values we talk about are giving a fighting
chance to the lower class, decent health care for all, equal
rights for every person.  

Franks "What's the Matter With Kansas" is a great
read on the subject of how the right energized the middle
class on values.  We need to frame our message not in
economics (boring) but in values.  Why is rolling back gun
control a moral value, but universal health care an elitist
liberal value.  What would Jesus do?  I think he was for
treating the lepers, not giving guns to everyone.

Time to stop being aghast at the "stupid poor
Republicans" and start talking about OUR VALUES.  

[Mountainman]

69. Most liberals don't mind paying taxes if the cause is just

I think you associate the Rights abhorrence of taxes as being a universal human trait. Liberals understand that a fair society is the best for all concerned. They don't mind paying taxes of it helps bring social justice. So voting for higher taxes to a liberal is not voting against his own self interests and secondly, liberals do not think in terms of what is best for the individual, the me mentality, like conservatives do.

[The Judged]

67. um, they don't, they didn't, and they won't. Prove they did! Verify it!