If the election was fixed, is it possible that the Dem primaries were too?

[ecstatic]

Poll question: If the election was fixed, is it possible that the Dem primaries were too?

Namely the Iowa vote, which was just so far out there that it caught many of us off guard... Things that make you go... hmmm...

[Smirking_Chimp]

1. They couldn't have Dean so they destroyed him.

They thought Kerry would be easier to defeat. Although publicly they stated they wanted Dean.

[Mark H]

174. I'll say it again.

I don't put much stock in the election fraud theory, But * was running ads in Iowa against Dean. The more answers I get the more questions I got.

[Fiona]

2. How do you fix a caucus?

Make people stand in the wrong corner at gunpoint?

[ecstatic]

3. Wasn't e-voting involved? nt

[Fiona]

5. In the Iowa caucus?

no

[w13rd0]

6. No, it was caucus...

...and the Dean volunteers were primarily out of state, and didn't have the experience shoehorning caucuses that the Vilsack machine did. The shortened primary season was a BIG mistake on the part of Terry Mac, who thought that after 911, 2004 election cycle would be a throwaway, for party-building and fund-raising. Well, they raised their funds...

[Mz Pip]

7. Dont think so.

The caucuses are public forums. They covered them on TV. IT was kind of interesting wathing people mill about talking to their neighbors then join the group for who they were supporting.
Mz Pip
:dem:

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Megawatt]

69. Does that mean I'm hopeless if I believe the general election was

stolen from my canidate?

[zulchzulu]

75. Um..no...but if you believe a caucus involves electronic voting...

..then you're uninformed about what a caucus is...

[greenohio]

20. Mind control.

[AntiCoup2K4]

31. No, you have a computer call Iowa residents at 3:00 in the morning

with a recorded message saying "Vote for Howard Dean".

Of course they didn't include the "paid for by the DLC" disclaimer in the robocalls.

[Capn Sunshine]

32. Have your own people control the process top to bottom

and ride roughshod over anyone with the incorrect answer. The rest you just minimize via Parilamentary skill and obfuscation.

Fixing a caucus is easy. What's harder is what you do once you've gotten your victory.

[IowaGuy]

47. Kind of hard to believe you've ever ....

participated in the Iowa caucuses with an answer like that. Got some real evidence to back that assertion up?

Man the tin foil is really gettin' used pretty heavy here any more...

[Capn Sunshine]

143. I was there

saw it first hand. What tinfoil? It's a time honored method of winning in Iowa.

I hope you don't drive, being asleep at the wheel si still acrime.

[IowaGuy]

145. So you saw it first hand?

What did you see that was fraud in Iowa? You got to do better than just say you saw it first hand and state unequivocally to "It's a time honored method of winning in Iowa".

I've lived here 50 years and have never experienced what you claim. Give me some verifiable data I can check - precinct #'s, transgressions, who did what? Or just cool it with the snide comments about being asleep at the wheel. Stand up, speak up, say something with some real content in it.

[formernaderite]

129. Exactly......another new tinfoil alert post....

....these threads start my day out on a funny note.

[donheld]

4. If this election was fixed

then all elections are suspect. I would believe they've pretty much all been rigged since at least 2000.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. No, goes back further

to at least 1960

[patricia92243]

8. I've thought it was fixed from the git-go. Dean could not have gone down

that far in votes unless the faithful had been told not to vote for him.

I'm not sure if this would qualify as a "fix", but obviously the leaders in our party got who THEY wanted to run.

[Radical Activist]

95. Maybe he just didn't have that much support to begin with

There was a lot of media hype about Dean, which is what made him the "frontrunner" to begin with. It wasn't tested until Iowa.

[ISUGRADIA]

119. Yeah, tens of thousands of Iowa Democrats were robots

what the fuck ever. It might just be that in Iowa, unlike most other states, you get to meet the candidates. I saw Dean in person on at least five ocassions. He came off as rude and condecending to me. I was not the only person obviously.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. No doubt in my mind

that Democrats are involved in the same voter fraud that Republicans are. This is the best explanation I can think of for the Dem party's lack of protest over the stolen election. Why else, in the face of the overwhelming evidence, has the Dem party said virtually nothing? Why else are we being encouraged to 'move on'?

[naryaquid]

11. ...I've heard that theory before...That the reason Kerry may not

be "making noise"..is that Karl Rove or some other Repug may have helped him win the primaries, and that they could "out" him.

[ecstatic]

14. lmao

now that theory is new to me. Intriguing, nonetheless. Could it be the skull & bones connection that got him in?

[naryaquid]

15. ...I never thought about Skull & Bones getting him the Nomination

..but that is an intriguing thought...I've heard others speculate that Kerry "gave it up" without much of a fight because Bush is S & K, too...but that's almost too horrible to consider, isn't it?...selling out the good of the country for some freakin' elitist society (although I know they take it seriously)

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. I don't think it was Rove

I think the Dems have been fixing the elections since about 1960. They have their own tricks, they don't need Rove to teach them how to do this.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. It's pretty tough to fix a caucus.

You write your choice down on a piece of paper and the votes are counted while you watch. At least that's the way they do it here.

[Florida_Geek]

13. If it was "fixed" it was done by the Dems

thru word of mouth.

[librechik]

36. both parties had schemes of various kinds

not least of which are open primaries in several states. And it had more to do with party leaders than word of mouth, IMHO.

[Tacos al Carbon]

165. Um, isn't that called campaigning?

eom

[DebJ]

12. They were 'fixed' by the primary scheduling, if not by the actual

voting process. It is so much easier to manipulate a small group of Iowans, than it would be to manipulate the entire country voting on the same damn day for primaries!!!

I want every state to vote in the Dem primaries on the same damn day. I want every vote to count. I am sick and tired of itty bitty Iowa and New Hampshire having so much power.

[naryaquid]

17. Good point.

[Johnny Noshoes]

19. There is something to be said

for a same day national primary. It would show if a candidate had what it takes to run a national campaign. On the other hand the big states would get all the attention so the small ones wouldn't like the idea too much. Maybe a series of regional primaries might work. I don't know something has to be changed in the way these primaries are run. The thing was over too fast and living in NY meant my actual vote for Dean counted for nada. It was a small satisfaction getting the chance to actually vote for HD - ah well.

"When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values....so you keep losing." Howard Dean 2004

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. As long as we have Diebold, etc

with no paper trail, no national election is safe.

[Johnny Noshoes]

150. Oh yeah that's a given

Of course we need to have a paper trail and more than that the software for any voting machine must be open source and not controlled by ANY partisan company - Rethuglican or Democratic.
I love technology but maybe we should go back to all paper ballots. Okay yeah even they can be fixed but you need to vote someway and maybe going back to doing it the old fashioned way MIGHT not be a bad idea.


"When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values....so you keep losing." Howard Dean 2004

[American Tragedy]

175. I've always favored a national primary day, or a series of regionals

For once in my life I would like to actually be able to vote in the primaries before a candidate has already garnered the necessary delegates and become the de facto nominee. I'm sorry, but I don't see why Iowa, New Hampshire, and a couple other states should be considered so much more important than ours and given such great power.

[greenohio]

21. Didn't Bill Clinton lose Iowa and NH?

[ecstatic]

22. the media probably didn't oversensationalize things back then

Nowadays, losing Iowa and NH is deadly to any candidate.

[greenohio]

60. uh huh.

You can win without IA and NH. Its been done. The media has been oversensationalizing long before the 90s.

[theboss]

71. Oh, Christ Jesus

The media didn't sensationalize things back then? Perhpas you forgot Gennifer Flowers, the National Enquirer, and every newspaper in the country leading with the story.

Clinton was smarter than Dean. He turned second place in NH into a victory, named himself the Comeback Kid and rolled to victory. Dean had a meltdown on tv.

[American Tragedy]

176. There's an important difference.

Clinton was clearly poised to win in the subsequent primaries, so he could afford those initial losses. Howard Dean could not, because unlike Clinton he had little hope of regaining his position in states like South Carolina and Oklahoma.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

29. The primary schedule was absurd.

Terry McAwful wanted an accelerated schedule on the theory that the candidate would be picked quickly and have more time to campaign in the general election. Problem was that only a small number of voters actually got to pick the candidate, and it wasn't fair to all the rest of us. I wonder who the candidate would have been -- if the outcome would have been the same -- if there had been some kind of national primary.

[IndianaGreen]

99. "Front-loading" the primaries is intended to quash an insurgent candidate

Terry McCauliffe did not want an "unknown" to score a surprise win in the early primaries, so he "front-loaded" the primaries in order to give a competitive advantage to the status quo candidates preferred by the Democratic establishment.

The irony is that under a "front-loaded" scheme, Bill Clinton would have never have had enough time to recover from the Gennifer Flowers revelations to survive the primary season, much less win the nomination in 1992.

[greenohio]

147. The front runner should then come out on top....

but he didn't.

[IowaGuy]

113. I understand and believe you are correct on

Mcauliffes strategy...I could just never get my head around how the schedule would change anybodies vote. Would you have voted for * if the election was on Nov 10th? How does the schedule really affect anybodies choice?

[DFLforever]

16. There were suspicions of electronic vote tampering in NH

The results in counties with electronic voting favored Kerry by a much greater margin than those using paper ballots.

The problem though, as the 2004 election shows, is proving them.

[Dr.Phool]

18. After NH and a couple of other primarys, John Zogby

Said in an interview, that he had never seen the exit polling as far off, as they were in places with touch-screens.

We saw it coming. The evidence was there.

In the 2002 gubernatorial primary in Florida, Bill McBride won a highly suspect primary against Janet Reno, who could have beaten Jeb.

[Freddie Stubbs]

26. Fixed by whom?

:shrug:

[AntiCoup2K4]

30. Well, DU rules say I can't name names....

But their initials are DLC.

[Freddie Stubbs]

40. How exactly could the DLC have fixed the Iowa Caucuses?

:shrug:

[AntiCoup2K4]

Robocalls, "Dean is Osama" ads, the electability LIE....

...just to name a few.

[Freddie Stubbs]

46. So by 'fixing,' your mean ran a tougher, more successful campaign?

:shrug:

[AntiCoup2K4]

117. If you're "campaigning" harder against a fellow Democrat than you are ....

...against the Republican candidate, who happens to be an unelected piece of fucking shit who has destroyed this country, then that is an indication that your priorities are VERY wrong.

[marcologico]

118. yes, that's why Dean and Gephardt lost

apparently they were killing each other with attack ads

[greenohio]

148. Like calling others "republican lite" and saying that

congressional Dems went along for the ride?

[Capn Sunshine]

33. I-N-S-I-D-E-R-S

whose cushy phoney baloney beltway jobs and lobbyist paid for perks were looking seriously endangered.

IOW Party hacks, establishment drones, backroom dealers "we know what's best for the people" types.

Someof them are even members of the dLC

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. How exactly did these "I-N-S-I-D-E-R-S" fix a caucus?

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

55. Magic

Skull and Bones people, all of them I tell ya.

(rolls ball bearings in hand) And then there was the strawberry incident, when they were all against me... (eye twitch)

:tinfoilhat:

[PassingFair]

108. If we were playing a game of Clue, the answer would be

Mrs. Heinz-Kerry,
In the firehouses,
With a checkbook.

[Freddie Stubbs]

125. So you think that the Kerry campaign bribed the caucus-goers?

Funny how not one single person was outraged enough to refuse and go to the press about this.

[PassingFair]

163. Bribed is hardly the term I'd use.

Pork says it best. Look, I liked Teresa BETTER than I did her husband, but the wheels were definately greased, and it was definately politics as usual.

[Freddie Stubbs]

179. Pork? So Kerry simply made campaign promises to the Iowan?

And they voted for him becasue of those promises? Wow, the fix really was in.

[zulchzulu]

164. This I-N-S-I-P-I-D cartoon analogy brought to you by...

..someone who has NO idea howa caucus works...but hey, if you can make shit up and act like it's the "truth" over perhaps analyzing why some candidate imploded too soon in Iowa after spending way too much money and having a campaign manager not even returning the candidate's phone calls...

..ah, nevermind.

[AngryAmish]

27. Thw whole thing is very suspicous

[FrenchieCat]

28. Naw....

not fixed in vote counting.....but fixed in vote influencing...yes.

Media and their endless polls citings influenced that the entire race should hinges on who won Iowa.....and who came in 2nd in Iowa. Everyother primary after that was bullshit....cause the media sang and danced hard that Kerry was the electable War hero....and optimistic Edwards would talk owls out of trees.

http://campaigndesk.org / Hidden Angle - pressure on journalists by Kerry/DNC to change coverage to Kerry v. Bush...in essense shutting down primary process

"There are but a few weeks to go before the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary. Time has grown short. In an effort to galvanize the message Kerry wants to deliver in the time remaining, he convened a powerful roster of journalists and columnists in the New York City apartment of Al Franken last Thursday. The gathering could not properly be called a meeting or a luncheon. It was a trial. The journalists served as prosecuting attorneys, jury and judge. The crowd I joined in Franken's living room was comprised of:
Al Franken and his wife Franni;
Rick Hertzberg, senior editor for the New Yorker;
David Remnick, editor for the New Yorker;
Jim Kelly, managing editor for Time Magazine;
Howard Fineman, chief political correspondent for Newsweek;
Jeff Greenfield, senior correspondent and analyst for CNN;
Frank Rich, columnist for the New York Times;
Eric Alterman, author and columnist for MSNBC and the Nation;
Art Spiegelman, Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist/author of `Maus';
Richard Cohen, columnist for the Washington Post;
Fred Kaplan, columnist for Slate;
Jacob Weisberg, editor of Slate and author;
Jonathan Alter, senior editor and columnist for Newsweek;
Philip Gourevitch, columnist for the New Yorker;
Calvin Trillin, freelance writer and author;
Edward Jay Epstein, investigative reporter and author;
Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., who needs no introduction

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/121003A.shtml

Media chiefs back Kerry campaign
Owen Gibson
Tuesday February 10, 2004
Kerry: media chiefs have pledged to raise between $50,000 and $100,000
http://media.guardian.co.uk/city/story/0,7497,1144464,0...
or
http://tinyurl.com/yrn2v

http://www.cmpa.com/pressReleases/NetworksAnointedKerry ...
Networks Anointed Kerry, Edwards Before Iowa Did

http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000032.asp
"Oops -- There ARE More Than Two Candidates"

http://campaigndesk.org /
In a moment of flashback, Mickey Kaus writing on Slate remembers that there's still, technically, a nomination fight going on, and acidly points out what a lot of our readers have been arguing: Wes Clark is getting an increasingly raw deal. :

Media to Voters: We're trying to eliminate General Clark tomorrow, OK? Please cooperate this time. .... 10:50 P.M.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2095238 /
Friday, February 6 2004

THE STORY COUNT: If the amount of media devoted to candidates is any indication, then the Dem nomination is already a two man race between Edwards and Kerry.

Take a look at our Election 2004 page this morning. I couldn't find a single story about Wes Clark in any of the major papers except for one - an AP piece in USA Today about Clark's bungling of the abortion issue.
-------------------------
NBC's Today Show Saturday morning, this is the coverage score for candidates:

Discussing the So Carolina Debate this was how many times Tim Russert mentioned candidates names:

Kerry 7 times
Dean 7 times
Edwards 1 time
Clark 0 times

This even even though one of the topics disc in this segment was national defense and other was the economy.
Pictured:

Kerry 2 times
Dean 2 times
Clark 0 times

This on backdrop of the fact that Dean is on a 'downslide' also so if Clark is dismissed for this reason, so would Dean. Also Dean is not running first or second place in any state in upcoming primaries Tuesday Feb 3rd.

In following segment on 'looking ahead to Tuesday', Tim Russert mentioned these candidates:

Kerry 6 times
Dean 0 times
Edwards 4 times
Sharpton 4 times
Clark 3 times

Sharpton is not running in first or second place anywhere and Clark is running in first place in OK and second place AZ.
------------------------------
ABC coverage report on 2/2/04- ABC's coverage the morning of the race for the primary on their Good Morning America Show. Tomorrow is primary day in 7 states.

The coverage was a two part theme.

Main theme was that Kerry was a Patriot fan and Edwards was from Panther territory, so all the coverage was on them and pictures of them campaigning and also watching the Super Bowl game.

No of Time Candidates Mentioned:
(in order of frequency)
Kerry 4 times
Dean 2 times
Edwards 2 times

Clark 0
Kucinich 0
Liebermann 0
Sharpton 0

No. of Time Candidates Pictured:
Kerry 6 times
Dean 5 times
Edwards 4 times

Clark 0
Kucinich 0
Liebermann 0
Sharpton 0

Second part of coverage was on the 'race in general'. It started out, "Well, that was in So Carolina, but there are other states in the race for Tuesday election: Missouri, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arizona (he named them all).
(The report "Amazingly there are NO negative ads running in these states against Senator John Kerry, the presumed front runner." (That was the report friends for the primary race friends on ABC.)

Candidates mentioned news segment two:
Kerry 1 time

Candidates pictures in news segment two:
Kerry 1 time

Candidates not mentioned or pictured in entire coverage:
Clark 0
Kucinich 0
Liebermann 0
Sharpton 0

If you were trying to pick a 'winner' for a race against Bush, who would you vote for in Tuesday's primary?
--------------------
ABC coverage report BarbW on 2/4/04- After Clark's Oklahoma win:
The below is a link to ABC New's Home Page. It looks like a Kerry/Edwards ad, not a cover story. Do you think that they are trying to tell us that Kerry and Edwards are winners. I think so. No sign of Wes on his win here. Clark is invisible.

Then even more amazing, check out their coverage of 'results by state'. I thought for sure I would find Clark's win here - NOT. Not even under Oklahoma!!
www.abcnews.com

Okay this is just online. I'm am coming with their television coverage this morning, which is the same. They don't even admit he won Oklahoma. They say he is leading in OK, like the counting is still going on at 7 am this morning. (Kerry won, Edwards won and Clark is leading in OK, tight race...they won't use the 'win' word with him, as in 'winner')
------------------
02/05/2004
The media continue their not so subtle BIAS.

The following page shows the Campaign Schedules for the runners.

* NOTE * - Clark's and Deans schedules do not include the address of where his rallies are while Kerry's and Edwards have detailed addresses.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/17/politics/main...

This is clear discrimination, I used to like CBS News, I will never forget how they have shaped and dictated this nomination.
------------------
CBS coverage report BarbW on 2/6/04- CBS portrays Clark as a loser again.
CBS Evening News last night, Friday, Feb 6th.

transcript used, but transcribed to notes taken by hand so inexact:

"Next Tuesdays primary proves to be a do or die test for John Edwards and Wesley Clark. They are both native sons to the South. If one of these guys manages to pull off both states, the other one is gone.

Edwards says he is the one because he could carry the south (lots more words and picture of Edwards in cheering thongs).

The AR born Clark, *running low on money, cannot sustain his candidacy on just his slim win in OK (showing picture of a tired looking Clark speaking to practically an empty room.)

(Incidentally, the day before ABC showed pictures of Clark supporters silent and sitting in the grass with signs of support laying on the ground as backdrop for their report. Only one supporter was still standing and she was looking down, like she was discouraged. Gist of story there was also, campaign just barely hanging on.)

Coverage goes on to say that if Edwards and Clark split the South Tuesday then race is over and Kerry wins, and then race is between Edwards and Clark for VP spot. (of course looking at the pictures of Edwards cheering crowds, anyone would assume that the winner of VP spot will be Edwards, especially if this coverage continues. Although it IS better than nothing but barely.
----------------------
I could go on and on and on......as we were tracking and documenting what the media did. I'll tell you this, it ain't going to happen again.

[Democrat Dragon]

34. According to the Votergate documentary...

An e-voting machine gave around 16,000(or was it 32,000?) votes to Dick Gephart.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. It would be hard to fix "primaries" in Minnesota, since we have

caucuses.

My caucus voted by secret ballot, and I was one of the tellers. They reported exactly what I and two other volunteers counted.

The only way to "fix" such a system would be to physically bar people known to be Candidate X's supporters.

Oregon primaries are by mail and are sent in to the county election headquarters. It would be hard to cheat there, too.

[DFLforever]

38. There were accounts of shenanigans in caucus counts in WA

and Maine ...I can't link them here but they are in archives at another political website I frequent.

[Cadence]

37. I don't know if they were fixed but I remember being

surprised that Kerry won after all of the attention and momentum that Dean had. I did see Rove say something weird about going up against Dean that made me think he really didn't want to. I wish I could remember what it was.

[IowaGuy]

51. People in this thread crack me up...

First you quote media hounds who reported Dean was way ahead, as if it was fact, then you claim it was a media conspiracy against Dean, then its the mysterious DLC that fixed it (like 90% of the DEMs going to the Iowa caucuses, even if they had heard of the DLC would even be able to name 3 people that belong to it); then its a conspiracy by a bunch of punk college kids in some goofball secret society, then its robocalls...

Facts:

Dean never had a meaningful ground game in Iowa - it was all Internet and media hype - college kids imported from other states for the cameras. He didn't respond well to a lot of media questioning regarding previous attitudes he had expressed about the Iowa caucuses. You don't win people over by dissin' them. He did this - nobody else. He took off to Georgia to try and pose as some kind of a religious guy w \ Carter at a critical time in the process and the disingenuous act blew up in his face.

I worked the Kerry phone banks, (no robocalls, all manual and all before 9:00 p.m.) and in the last 2 weeks, not one undecided voter I called broke towards Dean.

Don't get the idea I'm anti Dean. I like the guy and thought he brought a lot to the table in energy and thought provoking points, but he just plain blew it (and his money) catering to Internet kids.

Attacking your fellow DEMs without really taking a look in the mirror at yourselves is really getting a bit tiresome.

Conspiracy to fix a caucus - get a grip! (or at least get educated as to how the process works). Its obvious from a number of these posts, there are a lot of clueless people out there about that process and they are just going to scream and shout and throw mud at people just because things did not turn out the way they would have liked - time to grow up kiddies and sit at the adults table.

[marcologico]

57. "Conspiracy to fix a caucus - get a grip! " Nicely put...

And this guy was there folks.

[Cadence]

64. Why are you replying to me?

I didn't say there was a conspiracy OR that it was a fact Dean was ahead. All I said was that I was surprised because at the time Dean had a lot of attention/momentum. In fact I didn't say *anything* that justifies your reply.

[IowaGuy]

67. My apologies Cadence...

got myself in a little bit of a lather of the general tone of the thread as a whole and hit reply to yours when I meant to reply to the group as a whole - my bad. You are absolutely correct a lot of my comments should not have been directed specifically at you.

Again I apologize for my faux pas.

On a different note, just curious re: your handle "Cadence" - is that refering to a musical or marching thing, or are you a fellow CAD user?

[Cadence]

92. Apology accepted.

My username actually refers to one of my favorite authors/poets Maya Angelou. I got to see her speak in person once and was struck by the way she speaks there is a "cadence" to her delivery that comforts me...makes me feel more soulful. Plus timing is everything...just felt like a natural choice.

I am familiar with CAD software though. I used to do unix system administration and we had some engineers that would use it.
:hi:

[IowaGuy]

102. Well gosh....

had not thought of that. I'm in total agreement with you re: Maya Angelou. The softness of her voice, along with the apparent intellect, strength and integrity behind it is mesmerizing.
Cool...like it.
(maybe I should take my lead from her and get my brain and emotions into a calmer, more introspective state and I won't screw up, like I just did with my response to you)

Thanks, appreciate it...

[Cadence]

123. I like how you pointed out that

her "integrity" is apparent in the quality of her voice and her words. Authenticity. It's a beautiful thing.

Sometimes using the phrase "it is what it is" helps with tiny moments of zen. :)

[marcologico]

39. If the fix was in, it was NOT in for Kerry

At least in Iowa, and that's where he won. Dean and Clark were the golden boys, remember? And Gephardt was a contender? Kerry was dead man walking but all those millions of dollars worth of negative ads ticked people off and they voted for Kerry and Edwards, in caucuses and not on voting machines.

p.s. everybody's polls showed a drop in support for Dean in the weeks leading up to the caucus.

[FrenchieCat]

41. Clark was not one of the Golden Boys in Iowa.....

he wasn't even on the ballot.

[marcologico]

44. he was a golden boy who didn't want to lose his luster

so he sat that one out. But his name was on everyone's lips, why I still don't understand.

[FrenchieCat]

48. "golden Boy" who didn't want to lose his luster????

my, my, my......the enemy from within is among us, I see.

I am sure that you will never understand....that I will agree with. It may be too complicated. Maybe Michael Moore and Mario Cuomo...who both understand quite a bit will one day explain it so that even you can understand.

But when you've got 4 star......you don't fear losing your luster just because you decide, 1 month into your campaign, not to contest one primary.....

General Clark has never been afraid of a good fight. Ask the Republican Clinton Pentagon and ask Milosovic.

[marcologico]

49. I resent the insinuation of "the enemy from within is among us"

So knock it off, thanks.

[FrenchieCat]

54. So now you know what to do....

maybe showing a bit of respect could get you listened to a bit more. There is no real need to jump in and denegrate a fellow Democrat, now is there? Especially when there is no point or need to do so. Clark ain't runnin' for anything.

You see, based on your post count, I figure I would help you with these types of things.

[Pirate Smile]

168. No ballots in the Iowa caucuses but you are right, he skipped Iowa.

[Selatius]

42. I just think Iowa wasn't really representative of the country

I hate to overgeneralize, but I would put forward the notion that perhaps Iowan liberals in general are a bit more conservative than liberals in other parts of the country. The winner then would not be the guy who is most acceptable to the rest of the country but to Iowans instead. Of course, that's the point of a state primary.

However, we front-load our primary system, and this is perhaps what we get for doing so. Victories in Iowa then bleed over into other following primaries, so anyone who wins in Iowa automatically has an advantage elsewhere because of the implicit message that this guy has the momentum and that it's going to be hard to beat, so people are faced with choosing between fighting "against the stream" or falling in line behind the front-runner.

The question then becomes what choice do the people make? Fight? Or fall in line? What's easier to do? Can you tell me that?

[IowaGuy]

52. Your right...

Iowa isn't representative of the country...It's representative of Iowa. The caucuses do nothing more than choose Iowas delegates to the National convention. If other people make more of that than is called for...is it Iowas fault?

What state is "representative? of the country?

[slackmaster]

45. When your conspiracy theory doesn't seem to work there's only one solution

Expand the conspiracy!

[LittleClarkie]

50. Proof?

Reports? Eyewitness accounts? Exit polls that don't match?

Even a tenth of the evidence we have for the general election?

Or is this just another rant involving beating your tits and shouting to the sky "Dean shoulda won!!!!!!"

Proof please.

[IowaGuy]

53. Well said compadre..

[shiina]

56. Possible. I wouldn't put anything past these guys

[fujiyama]

152. Who are "these guys"?

Sorry, Dean blew the primaries and in the days approaching primary day, those at the top of the Dean campaign knew it.

Two to three weeks before, Dean had started losing support in IA. His numbers had started slipping.

[hansolsen]

58. Many Republicans crossed over and voted in the Dem caucus in Iowa,

in my opinion. Do I have proof of this -- no I don't. But I'm willing to bet that Karl Rove and the boys dreaded running against Dean, and were drooling at the mouth over the prospect of running against Kerry.

Anybody who thinks they didn't have the Swift Boat attacks allready virtually in the can, and the flip flop meme well oiled and ready, is naive.

Those same Dem caucus goers then voted Bush in the general election and Iowa went Republican.

Count me as one Democrat who wants to drop Iowa as the first in the nation primary. They gave us John Kerry who was so fucking dumb he voted against Gulf War I and for Gulf War II. I hope I never see or hear from him again.

[IowaGuy]

65. nice try on the conspiracy theory...

just doesn't fly though....western Iowa Dems went largely for Edwards (where most repugs are)

At least you were honest enough to state up front you had no proof and its your opinion.

I've heard it stated many times by Dean supporters that Rove and Co, "dreaded" running against Dean. Why? He was pretty wobbly himself on a lot of his positions...did disingenuous things like try and pose as some kind of religious guy with Carter.

In my opinion, Dean had every advantage coming into Iowa and just plain blew it with his own performance with the voters. The only proof I have of this is the knowledge of his bank roll coming into Iowa, the media attention he was getting, his own shaky performance with dealing one on one with Iowa voters in retail politics situations, and ultimately his distant 3rd place finish. In reality he was lucky he finished that good. If Edwards had not developed such a good ground game in the last couple of months - probably Gephardt would have finished 3rd.

[ISUGRADIA]

120. Sorry, wrong...I looked at voter reg stats before and after caucuses

plus those in my county. Maybe a drop of 5,000 or so in Rep registrations statewide after the caucuses- not much in a turnout of 125,000. And that's only if these Repubs attended the caucuses. There were more no party voters who registered as Dems if anything.

That said I am against the caucuses because they are not on person one vote. Two caucuses can have 200 people show up in the same county- one caucus has 10 delegates, one caucus has 5 delegates. Therefore my vote is worth only half as much. Screwy.

[ecstatic]

141. well stated!! nt

[marcologico]

59. Before embarrassing yourself read post #51, from somebody who was there

It helps to have information...

[greenohio]

61. Good posts.

Careful, they bite when you shake their reality.

[Tinoire]

62. Black leaders angered by changed caucus sites / call for new election

Black leaders angered by changed caucus sites

By KATHY BARKS HOFFMAN
The Associated Press 2/7/2004, 11:09 p.m. ET

<snip>

"We just went through this in Florida in 2000. Michigan should be above this. The Democratic Party should be above this. We're not going to tolerate this."

<snip>

Democratic caucus sites in the city of Detroit were to stay open an extra two hours Saturday, until 6 p.m. EST, to make up for the inconvenience of sites being changed. During the extended hours Saturday, residents could vote at any caucus site in Detroit rather than just the one they previously had been assigned.

But a check of several Detroit sites found them closed after 4 p.m.

<snip>

Howard Dean state director Daren Berringer had said changing polling places at the last minute hurt voters, especially in low-income areas such as Detroit where people might not have arranged transportation to get to a caucus site outside their neighborhood.

<snip>

Lorenzo Morgan said that he and his wife called the Democratic party's toll-free number and were told to vote at one caucus site, only to find it closed. The couple had to drive around to try to find their right caucus site.

"They're afraid even to tell us where to vote," said Morgan, 66, as he came into a caucus site at Bethany Baptist Church in Detroit to vote for candidate Al Sharpton.

<snip>

Originally: http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/politics-0/1076202545100572.xml

DU link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=290602#290612

===

Detroit caucus sites stay open extra two hours
Black leaders call for new election

Saturday, February 7, 2004 Posted: 6:42 PM EST (2342 GMT)

Black leaders call for new election

Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm speaks with Michigan Democratic Party Chairman Melvin "Butch" Hollowell at a caucus site Saturday.


LANSING, Michigan (AP) -- The leaders of four black statewide groups may challenge the results of Saturday's Democratic caucuses because some caucus sites weren't open or had been moved, Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus Chairman Derek Albert said.

"We feel very strongly that African-Americans were disenfranchised today. ... You had people running from site to site looking for where they could vote. ... We're calling for a new election," he told the Associated Press.

(snip)

The challenge would come from the Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus, the NAACP of Michigan, the Michigan Legislative Black Caucus and the National Action Network Michigan Chapter. The four groups plan to hold a news conference Monday to announce their intentions after meeting with a lawyer Sunday, Albert said.

(snip)

Michigan Democratic Party Chairman Melvin "Butch" Hollowell called the fact that people did not know where to vote "outrageous and unacceptable."

(snip)

"This is worse than in the '60s," said Albert, who also is chairman of the Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus. "This is horrible. This election needs to be stopped. Because this is not right."

(snip)

http://www5.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/07/elec04.prez.democrats.caucus.ap/

[marcologico]

73. (Michigan, not Iowa)

[Tinoire]

78. If the election was fixed, is it possible that the Dem primaries were too"

I believe that is the subject of this thread. Unless you don't think that Black voters from Michigan are part of the Primaries process :shrug:

[marcologico]

82. "Namely the Iowa vote" (first line of message)

:toast:

[Tinoire]

63. Coalition calls for investigation, resignation of Mich Dems executive chai

Posted on Sun, Feb. 08, 2004

Coalition calls for investigation, resignation of Michigan Dems executive chair

Associated Press


DETROIT - A coalition of black leaders called for an investigation and the resignation of the executive chairman of the state's Democratic party on Sunday, saying the movement or closure of some of the city's caucus sites marginalized black voters.

"We're concerned because we believe it was deliberate disenfranchisement of Detroit," the Rev. Horace L. Sheffield III, president of the National Action Network Michigan Chapter, said at a news conference.

Six of 134 caucus sites in Detroit were moved during Saturday's Democratic caucuses, some because building landlords decided at the last minute they didn't want a political event in their buildings, the party said. Some voters complained they did not know where to go to vote and were turned away from sites that closed.

(snip)

Sheffield said the problems with the Detroit sites "exhibits prejudicial preference" by the state Democratic Party. He was joined Sunday by leaders of the Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus, the Michigan Legislative Black Caucus and the Michigan NAACP as well as Detroit City Councilwoman Kay Everett.

The groups said Sunday it would challenge the results of Saturday's caucuses in court if an independent investigation, which would include coalition members, was not conducted.

They also called for a change from a caucus to an open primary system and more voter education. In addition they asked that the winner of Saturday's caucuses - U.S. Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts - come forward with a blueprint for an urban agenda.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/7901205.htm?1c

[marcologico]

74. (Michigan again)

[Tinoire]

79. If the election was fixed, is it possible that the Dem primaries were too?

Same response. Question is about the primaries in general.

[Tinoire]

68. A few DU eye-witness reports

((Just a few of the ones I saved))


Hoppin_Mad Mon Feb-09-04 12:30 AM

23. Not if they're true - Here is one first-hand account from WA


"Here is what happened in my precinct. We won 4 delegates for DEAN because none of the other candidates were viable. In our precinct Dean had over 71% of the votes...

BUT

When I went to the 36th district HQ's to find out what the caucus numbers were for the whole district and I looked on the computer that AMY HAGPOLAIN was entering data on - I discovered she had completely reallocated the delegate allocation for my precinct! She had entered only 1 DELEGATE FOR DEAN (instead of 4) and gave 1 delegate to Clark (note - we did not have a single Clark supporter at our precinct caucus), 1 to Edwards, and 1 to Kerry in my precinct - The precinct that went 71.1% for DEAN with no other candidate being viable or receiving a delegate. That single error affected Dean's delegate count by 1% at the Congressional District level. Looking further into the available paperwork, I found another error in another precinct that was next to mine at the caucus. Of the twelve precincts I had time to look at, I found two errors that gave delegates to Kerry that were not his. I also noticed that the head count in our district said we had 13 people signed in, when it was actually 21!!! That effects the percentage for viability and the delegate allocation!

This woman (AMY) got unbelievably angry (defensive) with me as soon as I pointed out the mistake. She immediately started berating me and started a big argument. We had quite an unpleasant shouting match. Then, she and another 36th District Official named PETE started a viscious passive aggressive game, blaming me for keeping them there to late, calling me a jack-ass, on and on and on. Eventually, they won the battle with the District Chair to stop the recount that we had in progress. I made them all stay as long as I could and we started recounting precincts to make sure that the sign-in (head count) numbers were accurate. We found that the majority of the precinct head counts (from the sign-in sheets) were under counted by one or two people and in some cases by as much as 5 to 10 people!!! A couple of the precincts were over counted.

Then PETE (last name unknown) told the Chair that no copies of the minutes needed to be made and he would keep them at his house. He started loading the Caucus Minutes into his car to take to his house and AMY was taking out tons of paperwork (I don't know what, exactly) while we were discussing when to start the recount again... the few people on my side who were trying to get the re-count done gave up as Pete and Amy talked the Chair into counting tomorrow and then she let them take all the minutes and delegates papers out the door... UNBELIEVABLE… I could not have made this up if I had tried my best! Truth IS stranger than fiction.

THE DEMOCRATS ARE F&^%ED in this District and, quite possibly, this state! I was treated so horribly for finding that first mistake and only wanted to look for more problems. Based on my intial findings this woman named AMY was either (1) inept or lazy and didn't care that she entered the data wrong or (2) she was stealing delegates from DEAN. Either way, it was wrong. When she was asked to correct her error and to look for others - she lost it and BLEW UP! She and her cohort Pete had absolutely no interest in accuracy... they kept repeating to me - "The election is over... Kerry won". They weren't accountable to anyone! This is not about who won - at least not now, anyway. This is about all of the votes at the caucus getting accurately counted so that the delegate allocation is correct. People like AMY and PETE need to be banned from doing this kind political work. I felt like I was a REPUBLICAN 'hanging chad' Party in Florida - or at least what I imagined it to have been like..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=295375#295472

====

IndianaGreen (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-09-04 08:54 AM

94. How about the DoveTurnedHawk post about the Kerry supporter he caught

Edited on Mon Feb-09-04 08:55 AM by IndianaGreen
at his Clark meeting. DTH posted a thread about that in this forum last week. The Kerry supporter was ID'ed by someone else. When DTH confronted him, the man confessed that he wanted to be a delegate so bad that he would have gone in as a Clark delegate.

DTH (in rightful indignation IMHO) got the Kerry supporter to leave.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=295375#296385

KaraokeKarlton (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-09-04 12:18 AM

13. Well, I find it offensive that when people report inconsistencies they see

in the primary elections (and there are plenty to report) that people try to censor them by trying to make them feel guilty for asking questions when they believe there are valid questions to ask. I don't think anyone is implying that Kerry is messing with the votes, but rather that perhaps the party leadership (or individuals within the leadership) might be up to no good. Caucus sites are being moved at the last minute leaving Dean supporters unaware while Kerry supporters mysteriously know where to go. Changed polling places are being closed after voters who complained about the relocation were promised extra time to get there to vote. And right now, I've personally read many reports from Maine caucus goers who reported Dean won their caucuses or it was a dead heat between Dean and Kerry (Dean was faring VERY well in the largest population centers, by the way), yet the returns we're seeing are implying Kerry is way ahead.

If you were in our shoes you'd be asking questions and raising your eyebrows as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=295375#295426
====

Egnever (1000+ posts) Sat Feb-14-04 10:04 PM

My Vote went to Dean!

What a strange day it was today here in Nevada.

Today we had our caucus and I was fortunate to be able to cast my vote for the candidate I believe in. Not because the party wanted me to but because I stood my ground.

Strange things that happened today,

Kerry showed up outside the caucus. Apparently thats his right but I found it extremely strange that a candidate should be standing outside on the steps while the people are making their decision. It wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much that he showed perhaps if he hadn't been an hour and a half late and they hadn't held up the vote till after he had time to make his appearance.

Yup thats right Voting was supposed to begin at 9:30 but it didn't begin till 12:30

Rules were changed throughout the process which is something I also thought was strange.

Originally we were supposed to gather in the football field of the a local high school where we would wait till our precincts were called to go into a room that was filled conspicuously with only Kerry posters to cast our votes and elect our delegates. How Kerry was the only one allowed to have posters in the original voting room is beyond me but hey thats politics I suppose.

The Dean camp made arrangements for one of our representatives to stay in the football field and make us aware of when our precincts were called so we could show our support outside the room since we were unrepresented inside of it.

This lasted all of 15 minns before the fire marshals decided that it was unsafe to have people waiting in the courtyard outside the classroom ???? so we were all told that the caucus would be held entirely on the football field.

So off we marched to the football field our Dean contingent gathered on the field and we held our signs high in support of our candidate, There much tongue wagging ensued from the "democratic party leaders" on how we remembered Vietnam and how proud we were to be patriots willing to stand up against this war and asking how many veterans were in the crowd!

I wanted to puke. Our caucus had obviously become a Kerry rally from the top down from holding the voting till after he made his appearance to the speakers pushing the whole Vietnam veteran thing and thanking all the other candidates supporters for participation in their caucus.

The last thing to happen before we were sent to our corners for our precincts was a group of Kerry supporters came and stood in front of us as Kerry signs were passed out to them. Whole football field to stand in and they choose to come line up directly in front of us and then get their signs handed to them I was appalled at the gall but thats politics I guess.

The one thing I heard repeated over and over by the Kerry folks when asked why they made their choice for Kerry was.....

He seems like he is going to be the winer.....

WTF?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=335557

=====

lastknowngood Sat Feb-14-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message

12. You got away a lot easier than some have at the caucuses

their have been some arrests and physical violence and much much intimidation from what I have heard on the Dean blogs. Glad you held your ground and it went peacefully. The DNC/DLC has been pushing their preordained Candidate and most people are just falling in line without any idea.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=335557#335624


====

GodHelpUsAll2 Sat Feb-14-04 10:44 PM

24. Thank you Thank you

For standing your ground and voting your heart. These primaries/causus's have sucked. I was at an actual caucus in Iowa. And have been to a few other states primaries volunteering for Dean. I was a driver for an elderly woman who called campaign headquarters for a ride to caucus in Iowa. It was sickening. Brutal intimidation and near threats was the words used by a young first time caucus goer as he was outside smoking a cigarette with me after the caucus was done. (And for the record, I stayed outside or in the hallway outside the room of the actual caucus but couls see through the door way and hear some of what was going on inside) The so called volunteers present for 2 other candidates whose names I will leave unsaid but will probably be obvious were swarming the place and pushing their candidate before people could even get all the way in the door. It was shameless. Especially since said candidates were the very one's whining about "out of state volunteers flooding the Iowa caucus". I had conversation with these "volunteers" in the halls as the caucus was going on as they would come out and conference with each other on what was going on inside. They were paid out of state people brought in just for caucus night. Funny, I always thought volunteer meant you didn't get paid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=335557#335729

===

JulieRB (1000+ posts) Sun Feb-08-04 12:24 AM

The view from a Washington caucus


We had quite a day. As you can see, we've been a little busy today, so this was the first chance I had to post on DU. Since I am a Dean supporter, we're bloodied but unbroken. We live in a small town with a supposedly overwhelming Republican population.

Our caucus was packed. Those who are typically at the Duvall caucus said that the turnout was overwhelming. It took the first half hour of the caucus time to get the line registered and in the door. While I was out in the hallway with my Dean brochures and stickers, the Kerry contingent arrived in matching T-shirts ("The Real Deal",) and gosh, how shocked was I? A nice anti-Dean hit piece.

Yes, you read that right.

They passed it out to everyone in line. It was purportedly a "comparison" between Kerry's positions and Dean's positions. I found three different inaccuracies in the first two issues that were being discussed. The Kerry supporters were also very contentious. ("Why waste your vote? Vote for Kerry.") Even Kerry supporters were a bit embarrassed by the antics of the Kerry campaign volunteers, and other Dem candidate supporters were just plain angry. Being the sassy, outspoken person I am, I wasn't going to let this one go. I asked the female Kerry supporter why she thought it was acceptable for Kerry to vote for IWR, the Patriot Act, and the Omnibus bill, and miss upwards of 50% of other votes. She responded with "Well, it was going to pass anyway, and the Patriot Act has a sunset clause." I asked her how people damaged by the loss of their civil rights were ever going to get them back. She didn't want a lot of discussion with me after that.

This is interesting to me. The Kerry people are going out of their way to be nasty, to hit-piece and smear Howard Dean, then they think that we're just supposed to go to the voters' booth and vote for their guy, with no repercussions? I might vote ABB, but I won't support Kerry.

Our precinct split between Dean and Clark. I am a delegate to the next level. I plan to raise hell there, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=290718

The Kerry Krew then get up there, or as I like to call them at this cozy town hall meeting, "The Suits" A lifer and his trainee. This guy's dropping names and showing he's a real good "Smiler" The whole "I'm one of you" They play on fears, they praise their boy. They let everyone know, "Hey, This election is over. So, we're going to pass a paper around, everyone write your name down, and get on board the Kerry train."

Well Killingworth, CT didn't buy into it. They had a mind of their own. They started asking questions. "The Suits" started dancing around the topics, getting fuzzy. Saying things that weren't true. When people started disagreeing with them, they tried to get the people to listen but not speak, at their own town meeting. "The Suits" started acting like they were running the show, and not invited. They started saying the information wasn't in on the war yet, not true. They started saying raising lots of money from special interest was a good thing, now is it? When Killingworth showed they had a mind of its own, that liked many different candidates, "The Suits" put on their coats and got out of there. All the other reps stayed to shake hands and talk.

I'm not saying we won Killingworth over to Kucinich, because we didn't (Though we did good in Washington and Maine) I'm saying Killingworth could think for it's self, and was tired of being told what to do, and I really think that great group of people won't make up their mind until March 2nd. I hope all of America is starting to get like Killingworth. If Kerry wins, Kerry wins, but let our party be heard, let it run to the Convention. No more tricks or suits. Real people, real issues, for a real candidate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=295891#296406

[marcologico]

76. (Washington State?)

[Tinoire]

80. Various states n/t

[AngryAmish]

128. There you go

[theboss]

70. I give up.....The voters in Iowa were robots

I mean, I just freakin' give up.

I now don't believe anything is legit. All those people in all those houses in Iowa were robots. Kerry is an evil genius too. Just not as big as an evil genius as Rove.

[foo_bar]

124. either you're with us or you're with the robo-freepers

"Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

[leesa]

72. Kerry was chosen for us by the GOP media in one day.

What do you think? The Gropinator was installed via fraud. Same old trick of shifting votes to unlikely candidates. Who PAID all those Dem contenders to participate in the recall? Hmmmm...

[Pirate Smile]

144. Are you serious or kidding? Hopefully kidding

[theboss]

77. Out of curiosity, how exactly DO you fix a caucus?

I would love to hear this theory if just for the entertainment value.

[janx]

83. Well, first you line up the contenders and where they stand.

And then, if you're from D.C. and have any influence, you try a little "muscle." Then, when the Dem contenders decide if they will concede and to whom, you get an idea of who will shuffle delegates to whom.

And after that, you get an idea of who will contribute the most bucks to knock a popular candidate out.

And after that, you take all of the above to the voters. It's really not that complicated, and it's funny to watch on CSPAN.

[theboss]

84. That's not fraud; that's politics

Christ, if Iowa bothered you, Old Man Joe Kennedy would have made you crawl into a fetal position and cry for six months.

[janx]

91. That's politics.

But is that democracy?

Is that what you want? Is that going to gain the will of the people?

[theboss]

96. The people voted for Kerry

You are basically angry because Kerry knew how to run a big-time campaign when came to nut-cutting time and Dean didn't. At some point, you need to get the votes. Kerry got them. Where is the lack of will in that?

[janx]

105. "big-time" ?

or CORRUPT?

[theboss]

111. Maybe a little of both

I think it's how you define "corrupt." I don't think Kerry is Mayor Daley. I highly doubt he stuffed a ballot box anywhere in the 2004 Primary. That's what this thread seems to be alleging (without any evidence I might add).

But I also don't think you can survive two decades in Massachusetts without having a nasty streak. Kerry went to Iowa, put his team in play, took no prisoners, and basically proved that Dean was not up for the challenge. You can only get so far with idealistic college kids and a PayPal account. At some point - as Garry Trudeau pointed out - you need the union leader in the jacket with his name on the front.

[Pirate Smile]

146. The unions (the biggest ones) supported Dean. A big guy wearing

an AFSCE shirt was sitting with me at the caucus. I don't think he ever said a word but he was supporting his union's choice.

I felt sorry for the Gephardt guy who was standing around because the two Gep supporters who showed up were not even close to enough and they had to either go uncommitted, join a different candidate or leave. I think they left. He was on a cell phone relaying the bad news before the entire thing even really got started.

We also had three Clark supporters - he, of course, didn't even try in Iowa. Two went to Dean and one stayed uncommitted.

It was really kind of interesting.

There is no secret ballot. You have to stand up for your choice and you are with your neighbors although you don't know a lot the people.

Fixed? What a crock!

[janx]

94. Did I forget to mention the Osama ads?

If Old Man Joe were to sanction them, I'd tell him to go to hell too. Guys smoking cigars in back rooms do not a democracy make. You can tell that to Joe and all of the other cigar smokers.

[theboss]

97. Too obvious

It was easier to have the Mafia steal the WV primary.

[marcologico]

88. You're saying Gephardt faked those tears?

Did you see his concession speech? If that was an act he deserves an Oscar. Nobody decided who would concede to whom until after the caucus.

p.s. I don't suppose you're being ironic?

[janx]

110. I deserve an Oscar too.

Listen, the Iowa caucus process was the most chaotic and corrupt political process I have ever seen. And I used to live in that state.

Delegate swapping, tears on the part of delegates, confusion...good grief, at least let us have a reasonable primary vote for the first one.

I've never seen anything like it.

[IowaGuy]

112. Chaotic...yes....

Corrupt? Wow, thats a big charge...anything specific you would like to share with us?

[IowaGuy]

89. muscle?...Iowa voters?...oh jeez

[IowaGuy]

85. Like you...can't figure where all this is coming from...

If it could've been fixed...I would think my precinct would've been one that would be...however Edwards took the most delegates out of my precinct, Kerry came in a close second, Gephardt came in 3rd. We had a little over 90 people show up, and only 3 were Dean supporters (and our precinct is all of 3 miles from the Dean campaign HQ). Even Kucinich had better support. I should've seen this sour grapes thing coming that nite though, in retrospect. At the end of the vote counting every one of the candidates groups, shook hands with each of the other of caucus attendees and vowed, no matter how it turned out, we would unite and work for the nominee - except for the Dean supporters - all three of them stomped out of the room, cursing and muttering about how screwed the process is. Hello, whose fault was it that only 3 supporters showed up in a crowd of over 90?

[theboss]

87. I've always loved the passion for Dean

The Party needs that.

But Dean Supporters are simply never going to accept that Dean had little more than an extremely large "cult" following. The support was far deeper than anything Kerry ever experienced, but not very broad.

It's like discussing music with die-hard Phish fans.

[IowaGuy]

93. Good analogy...and analysis

I would agree with you regarding the passion of Deans followers, and the need for that.

I know that it is generally considered common wisdom that Kerry did not elicit that feeling among his supporters - my personal, experience, albeit somewhat anecdotal, is that is not entirely true. There was a hard-core group of his supporters that are true believers also. They tended to be older, quieter, and harder working. Kind of boring stuff, as far as media goes, but it is what it is.

In the end, here in Iowa, Dean was his own worst enemy. He just could not shut up and listen to what a voter had to say. It was always about him. That plays well to the cultists and true believers, but there are a lot of voters out there that don't, and won't look at any politician in that totally devotional way.

[theboss]

103. I know there were Kerry true believers

But I found them to be mostly "Old-time Democrat" true believers and Kerry best represented the history of the party. And that ultimately was Dean's undoing. Anytime you run on a platform of "changing" the party, you are telling the long-time Dems that what they are doing is wrong and that it's time for them to be replaced. The only candidate who was ever really able to win with that approach was McGovern, but that was an insane year to begin with, and he had the first time 18-21 year olds on his side. Clinton ran a reformist campaign, but he had established the groundwork and was not objectionable to the older guard.

[marcologico]

90. yeah I'm getting that impression too

[zulchzulu]

98. I saw about the same thing

I was in Des Moines following the Kerry campaign and sat in as a witness for a caucus.

Edwards won with 60, Kerry had 59, Dean had 14 and Kucinich had 12. Gephardt got 1.

The Kerry and Edwards people all shook hands and whatnot, but the Dean people (whose representative was an arrogant ass) all wimpered out of the room...it was kind of sad really.

I had no idea that the results were going to be what they were.

All in all, it was a pretty cool process.

[Missy Vixen]

130. One experience, one caucus

>I would love to hear this theory if just for the entertainment value.<

Our caucus (excerpt above provided by a different poster,) was packed with Republicans voting for Kerry. I don't think that this was an isolated incident.

Julie

[AP]

81. IIRC, Edwards was leading GA -- an evote state -- all day, but lost in the

end. He also dropped at the end of the count in NH too.

[Jackie97]

86. They voted for Kerry....

because Kerry came off as a moderate. That's what most Democrats want. They don't want somebody who looks too far to the left.

[marcologico]

101. Yep--that's why he voted for IWR, that's why he played nice, and THAT'S

why he won Iowa, the nomination, and of course the election!

[Guaranteed]

122. Yes, clearly the best election we've ever had!

A true political master!

[IndianaGreen]

107. Iowans voted for someone they were sold as "Mister Electable"

According to most polls, Dennis Kucinich was the candidate that appealed to Democratic voters on the issues. Unfortunately, Dennis was not telegenic enough to inspire confidence in the shallow minds of many voters.

Kerry had no strengths as a candidate, other than his appeal to the ABB crowd. Kerry's critics during the primaries were proven right about Kerry when he was soundly beaten in the popular vote by the worst President in our nation's history.

[Radical Activist]

100. Kerry was the early DNC (NOT DLC) favorite.

Kerry was certainly the favorite candidate of the party establishment early on and hey what a coincidence that the convention was in Boston that year! The convention being in Boston is what made me wonder if the party regulars had this figured out way in advance. Kerry was the early frontrunner before most people knew who Dean was.

[marcologico]

104. sure but they'd also written his epitaph long before the caucus

He was the has-been of the year, remember? Iowa was supposed to be his swan song.

[Radical Activist]

106. Who did?

The party or the corporate media?

[marcologico]

109. Both, or more accurately the party represented by the fringe liberal media

Like Nation magazine, New Republic and some Internet sources. That's how I remember it anyway.

[shanti]

114. of course

kerry was handpicked by the bilderbergers...to lose. *taking off my :tinfoilhat:

[DFLforever]

115. Why are we questioning how the nominee was picked

when it worked out so brilliantly!

[BrklynLiberal]

116. Repukes afraid of Dean so they made sure MSM screwed him.

[ISUGRADIA]

121. Not fixed but the Iowa Caucuses are not one person, one vote

Two caucuses can each have 200 people show up in the same county- one caucus has 10 delegates, the other caucus has 5 delegates. Therefore my vote is worth only half as much. Screwy. Plus no absentee voting which means many working people and old people cannot attend.

[Pirate Smile]

139. In my caucus, Kerry had 39 people and got 4 votes or whatever they

call it. Edwards had a low 30's number and Dean had 27 or 28. Edwards and Dean each got 3 votes so in our caucus Dean, by picking up some Clark, Kucinich and uncommitted got the same number as Edwards. Some Kucinich people went to Edwards also which was surprising even though they made that deal because that had tons of anti-war stickers and stuff.

There were no robots. I was never contacted by any organization or anyone in the Dem Party. My neighbor and my daughter's Brownie troop leader both went for Kerry. I was with Dean.

[Catchawave]

126. Not necessarily fixed, but screwy stuff....

...like letting Republicans vote in most states during the Dem primaries. I never could understand that, except they knew their boy was in trouble and probably voted for the candidate Bush could easily defeat.

I think Dean and Edwards really worried the pugs at that time?

[GOPBasher]

127. Not sure, but it makes you think, huh?

[marcologico]

131. Makes you think some Deniacs are either shameless or clueless

1. Shameless, to delegitimize the GOP vote-rigging crime by making it look like a crank conspiracy theory (like this topic), or else

2. Clueless, because electronic voting machines are not used in Iowa caucuses (see posts #7, #10, #51, and many others by people who were there).

Either way, mixing up illegal election tampering and legal politicking is NOT going to persuade any senators to support Conyers' contest of the election on Thursday.

[GOPBasher]

134. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know that.

Although I wasn't a Dean supporter, I belonged to group 2. I didn't know electronic voting machines weren't used in Iowa. I didn't read all the posts, sorry. Thanks for clearing that up, though. I feel better now. BTW, were only paper ballots used in the general election in Iowa? If so, that would make me feel better. At least it would be one swing state Bush won legitimately. I know he didn't win Florida or Ohio.

[Walt Starr]

132. Iowa holds a caucus

It's impossible to "fix" a caucus.

[Pirate Smile]

133. I think a certain portion of this board has gone temporarily (hopefully)

insane in the aftermath of this election.

I supported Dean during the Iowa caucuses but jumped fully onto the Kerry band wagon later during the Spring.

I was on Deans list through DFA and had pledged to support him.

NO ONE ever contacted me. No one ever tried to make sure I knew the right place to go for the caucus. It was not my normal voting location. I did the research to find out where but I knew he was in trouble when they didn't go out of their way to make sure I had this information. This was my first caucus because I had moved back into the state after 2000 but Dean was supposed to win by getting new people involved.

The momentum shifted in the last couple of weeks. I could feel it and I dreaded the feeling at the time. I was very upset afterward but eventually got over it although I still love Howard.

Creating a conflict between Dean and Kerry supporters is really STUPID. We need both as strong leaders. Dean as DNC chair and Kerry as a strong opposition leader in the Senate.

Dean has been extremely smart and kind in supporting Kerry before the election and in refusing to bash him afterward - I wish that would rub off on more of his supporters and I consider myself one of his supporters. I also consider myself a Kerry supporter.

[The Gigmeister]

137. It's pretty simple, really.

Govenor Dean wasn't ready for Prime Time. He's said himself that they never thought they would be leading, they thought they would be the bomb-throwers and issue-raisers. NEVER did he think he would be pulling in the 40s with everyone else in the teens or below.

His team simply was not ready.

Then came the time for the groundwork and while they are to be commended for their passion and hard work, the kids with the orange stocking caps looked like Jim Jones followers to Bill and Betty Iowa Farmer.

So...Bill and Betty voted for the "Safe Pick". Senator Kerry.

It was as simple as that. Dean was not ready for Prime Time and lost Iowa and then melted-down and let loose with the scream and it was all over.

Kerry won fair and square...Period.


And besides...Kerry kept it close. Dean would have been slaughtered and would have taken even MORE Senators, Govenors and Congresspeople with him. Hell, he would have been lucky to carry D.C.

Enough with the whack-job conspiracy crap!!

[Pirate Smile]

138. I agree with almost all of what you said but I hate when we get into the

"Dean would have won" or "Dean would have done terrible" stuff. It is all speculative and no one will ever know. So lets drop it.

I am sick of the conspiracy stuff also. There is enough problems that we can prove with voter suppression, flaws and secrecy in the voting machines, conflicts of interest in SOS, etc.

I must be weird because I feel a little knife inserted when people bash Kerry and when people bash Dean.

[The Gigmeister]

140. I understand, and you're right.

I don't bash Dean, I just am not a conspiracy kook. But I do think Dean would have been disasterous.

[IowaGuy]

157. Wow...

thank you, its an honor to be on the same team with you...

[Pirate Smile]

170. Thanks. Where are you at? I'm in CR.

[IowaGuy]

180. DM

[greenohio]

173. "I wish that would rub off on more of his supporters "

Amen.

[The Gigmeister]

135. YES OF COURSE!! IT'S ALL A SKULL AND BONES CONSPIRACY!!!

PLEASE PEOPLE!! JUST STAY IN YOUR HOUSES AND DON'T LEAVE UNTIL YOU STARVE TO DEATH!!

THE BOOGIE MAN CANNOT BE DEFEATED!! HOPE IS POINTLESS!! WORKING TOWARDS WINNING IN 2006 AND 2008 IS POINTLESS!!

THE ILLUMINATI AND SKULL AND BONES CONTROL US ALL!! THEY HAVE PURCHASED DEIBOLD AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER HONEST ELECTION IN AMERICA (Has there ever been one in the first place. Oh fuck that! Fuck reality!!)

KARL ROVE IS IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING!! AGAIN...DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOMES! IF KARL SEES YOU LEAVING, HE'LL WHIP UP A TORNADO WITH HIS WEATHER MACHINE AND KILL YOU!

JUST STAY IN YOUR HOUSE...PREFERABLY YOUR BED AND DIE AS SOON AS YOU CAN!! ALL IS LOST!!!

[robbedvoter]

160. There's a few threads without this insightful info - go spread it around

dear. Don't let any DU-er behind! They all must see your light!

[Kahuna]

136. I watched the IA caucuses on TV. So, I doubt they were fixed.

:shrug:

[ecstatic]

142. Did I mention Dean's name at all in my post?

All the "soar Dean loser" comments are confusing me. It's a simple question--why would one election be fixed, but another, not fixed?

[IowaGuy]

155. You are correct that you did not mention Dean by name...

I did not in any of my comments wish to imply that the sore loser tag is true for you, although it is kind of apparent from some of the other responses from others that would be a fair inference towards them.

I must admit that when reading your thread I did infer that you were referring to Dean when you stated "which was just so far out there that it caught many of us off guard... ", referring to the general media buzz Dean had it sewn up. My apologies if that was an unfair inference.

re: the basic predicate of your question: "why would one election be fixed, but another, not fixed?" The question itself is fundamentally in error because the Iowa caucuses are not an election. As many in this thread have ably said, it is not one man, one vote, but rather a demonstration of organizational abilities. The candidate that can best get a wide base of support gets the most delegates to the individual County conventions, the guy that comes in 2nd gets the second most, etc. etc.. The caucuses themselves are all done in public, neighbor knows neighbor, counting is all done in the open for all to see. Everybody stands for somebody and everybody sees who they are standing for. How could fraud occur, under those circumstances? These are not secret ballots, there are no Diebold machines, there are no smoke-filled backroom deals being made by DC DLC types. Its neighbors facing each other and looking each other in the eye and standing publicly for what they believe. What could be more American and democratic than that?

[GreenPartyVoter]

149. Instant runoff voting and same-day primaries

It's worth a try!

------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can save this country!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[jswordy]

151. Reminds me of a quote...

"I wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't against me!"

-- Major Frank Burns
MASH 4077th


ROFL! Naw, the caucus wasn't fixed...but according to his own quotes, Clark was injected into the race by the DNC/DLC to help blunt Dean because he was anti-war and also a general, so he took that issue away...giving handpicked nominee Kerry the time he needed to regroup.

CLARK SAID THAT to two journalists after he dropped out, then said it was supposed to be off the record. But the pair say no deals were asked for or offered.

[fujiyama]

153. If the IA vote caught you off guard...

you simply weren't paying attention to any of the polls.

Dean's numbers had been slipping for several weeks before the caucuses, and even those at the top of the Dean campaign knew it.

Dean blew Iowa. Kerry had a better organized team in the state. That's all there was to it. The people didn't reply well to the you people in orange hats. They felt as though a bunch of outsiders were telling them what to do. Also it had partly to do with machine politics and they really knew what to do to get the vote out.

You can argue about the schedule of the primaries and the wisdom of front loaded primaries, but I find it ridiculous to argue that the Iowa caucus was "rigged".

Why did Dean end up third place in IA then? They could just as well have had him show up behind Gephardt.

[greenohio]

154. Wow. The majority think the primaries were fixed.

Absolutely fascinating.

[IowaGuy]

156. Yeah it is....

however I'm still waiting for somebody to present the evidence that would allow somebody with critical thinking abilities to rationally come to that conclusion.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

159. I think you're going to be waiting a long time...

When the D.U. got started, I really hoped it would be a place for Democratic activists of all persuasions to come together and strategize. Instead, it's now just the mirror image of the Free Republic, dominated by posters so divorced from reality they're filing frivolous lawsuits at it 20 years later just to get even.

It's all a conspiracy I tell you! If everybody wasn't conspiring against us, people would surely know that everybody actually voted for us! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! :crazy: :tinfoilhat: :crazy:

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Pirate Smile]

169. Stay around and post more. More people agree with you then you

realize but sometimes they just aren't the most vocal.

[IStriker]

158. I think it would be easier to fix a primary than regular election...

but I think they didn't have to fix anything because they got the press to do their dirty work in destroying Dean.

Primaries are where they run all those phone banks with push polls and poison minds of voters against candidates so it's not like they do illegal things to get the result that the movers and shakers want.

[48pan]

161. Way too much tinfoil.

I realize that Reynolds Aluminum stock is doing well, but this is tinfoil hat stuff.

[moggie12]

162. Did his Osama remark a few days before hurt him?

Anybody here from Iowa?? I thought Dean lost because of that politically tone-deaf Osama Bin Laden remark he made a few days before the vote. I posted this once before but several people said they didn't think it was a factor. (I'm talking about when he said he wouldn't pronounce OBL guilty before a trial.) I still think it had something to do with it.

I only got a few replies to my question and one person said there was no "proof" OBL had anything to do with 9/11!!! (that tape of him sitting around talking about what a nice surprise it was that the WTC collapsed was faked maybe??) I'd be very interested in what people from Iowa found out after the vote. What about the effect of anti-Dean ads by other Democrats, saying he wasn't a real progressive? Did that factor in at all? If none of the above, what is your take on what happened???

[Pirate Smile]

167. I don't remember an OBL tape but Saddam getting caught may have

had an impact when Dean said it didn't make us safer. Oh, the irony!

If you read through the thread you will see quite a few responses by people, including me, who actually did participate in the Iowa caucuses. I don't believe anyone who was there thinks it was fixed. In fact, we know that a fix did NOT happen.

[sampsonblk]

166. Yes! To avoid having a candidate with something to say!

Inside job, if you ask me.

[lib_1138]

171. so sad nt

[merh]

172. A lot of sore losers on this thread!

It is a shame they can't face the fact that it would not have mattered who was the candidate, they would have lost. The bastards stole it. My believe is the others would have made a poorer showing than Kerry.

[American Tragedy]

177. Come on guys

Is it really that hard to believe that Dean simply lost the Iowa caucus and the subsequent primaries?

Many Democrats liked Howard Dean, including me, and he certainly had a very devoted and vocal support base. Yet couldn't it be that when it finally came down to actually casting their votes for a presidential candidate, they turned elsewhere of their own volition, for better or for worse, out of political expediency or some other reason?

I am addressing some of the replies above, not you particularly Truth Hurts A Lot.

[Johnny Noshoes]

178. I was a Dean supporter

and still like and admire the guy. I donated money and volunteered in NH the weekend before the primary and do NOT regret any of it. We fought the good fight. If he were to run again in '08 I'll be there and do it again. That being said he lost okay how many times do we have to keep rehashing this stuff.


"When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values....so you keep losing." Howard Dean 2004

[greenohio]

181. You know....I bet this poll is rigged too! I didn't even get a receipt.

Darn that BBV. The DLC is everywhere.

Though I still believe that we can improve our voting procedures in this country.... the IA caucuses were not fixed.

[madfloridian]

182. Have I said today that 37 states did not get to vote for the full slate?

Not sure of the date Clark dropped out, but Dean was out on February 18. 37 states had their primaries after that, including FL NY and CA.

Just thought I would mention it. Is that a majority or what? Actually Iowa chose our nominee.