"Cheating is usually on the Left-Al Gore tried to steal the 2000 election"

[Q]

So said a CSPAN caller this morning. I get the impression that she also believes that Bush has 'liberated' Iraq and is bringing them 'democracy'. She probably also believes that if the media doesn't report it then it can't be true.

There is ample evidence to prove election fraud and civil rights abuses in both the 2000 and 2004 elections. But many Americans are too lazy or frightened to seek out the truth. It's easier for them to believe what they're told by FOX than have to hurt their little brains with critical thinking.

[Taxloss]

1. Yes, most electoral cheats are left wingers, like those famous

commies Richard Nixon and Dame Shirley Porter.

[CO Liberal]

2. I Heard That Caller, Too

She also mentioned Illinois, 1960, and the Mafia being involved in that vote. All the standard Freeper crap that people like my Freeper father-in-law believe is true, because they've been told it over and over again.

[FloridaPat]

12. Actually this one is true. Kennedy had the help of the Mafia during

the 60's elections. He carried Illinois because so many of Chicago's dead people voted for him.

[Cheswick2.0]

14. atually had he lost that Chicago he still would have won the election

[CO Liberal]

19. WRONG!!!!

From the Snopes Web Site (http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/onevote.htm). Underlining emphasis mine:

A one vote change in each precinct in Illinois would not have defeated John F. Kennedy in 1960. In the 1960 presidential election, John F. Kennedy bested Richard Nixon by a mere 118,000 popular votes (out of 68 million ballots cast), and Kennedy also won the state of Illinois by a margin of less than 9,000 votes. However, the key electoral vote total wasn't nearly as close as the popular vote: Kennedy came out ahead of Nixon by a 303 to 219 margin, so even if Nixon had taken Illinois (and its 27 electoral votes), Kennedy would still have won a majority in the electoral college.

Even the charge that a one vote difference in each precinct in Illinois would have changed that state's results is hard to prove or disprove because it's widely understood there was a fair bit of cheating carried out by both sides over those 27 electoral votes. What the numbers eventually tallied out to be is almost immaterial, as both Nixon's and Kennedy's factions were reportedly stuffing every ballot box in sight. That year, the motto in Illinois seemed to be: "One man, one vote - and then some." A statement from Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley captured the essence of what was going on in that place and time: "One of their precincts, outside of Peoria, where there are only 50 votes, just announced 500 votes for Nixon."

* * * * * *

We Democrats need to stop accepting the Republican's lies as facts.

[SharonAnn]

21. He would have won without that.

[ieoeja]

36. Another correction: Nixon DID demand a recount.

Unfortunately for Nixon, Kennedy's lead kept growing. Turned out rural conservatives outcheated Chicago. So he cancelled the recount.

[vickie]

35. I also heard her gibberish and simply tuned it out.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. There were threads like that all over Free Republic

before the election. Most of them looked more like detailed instructions for how to steal votes. I have a inkling that this was how operatives communicated the ways to hack the vote to each other.

[CottonBear]

4. Did you hear the mouth-breathing caller

who rambled on about removing the eagle from the dollar and the holy spirit?
I don't know how the hosts keep a straight face. the next caller did ask about Conyers and the need for a senator to speak out today.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

7. Just as smart?

Sorry, she may have right to her opinion. But she sounds like a fool.

And--who is this "we" you mention?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

10. May be just as smart...

but psychotic nonetheless. The more interesting psychotics generally are extremely smart.

There are smart people who believe the Earth is flat as well. You pretty much have to be smart to twist reality around in that fashion.

Now what exactly was your point?

[ElectroPrincess]

42. Good Point!

"You pretty much have to be smart to twist reality around in that fashion." And they are often members of the highly intelligent right wing think tank hate group known as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).

Yes, AEI's silver tongued fascists broadcasting bullshit so alluring and pervasive, one often needs wings (or critical thinking skills) to rise above it.

[Q]

11. It's not an 'opinion'...it's a lie...

...and if some Americans don't know the difference and haven't bothered to do the research...then their opinion becomes nothing more than a smear.

[Cheswick2.0]

15. no they are not just as smart.

the fact that they believe this nonsense proves they are dumb as a box of bricks.

[ElectroPrincess]

43. There's the beauty of "the ends justify the means" read "The Prince"

Many associates of AEI KNOW that they are telling lies but don't care. After all politics is a game for the "ruling class" and should not be left up to the people. They think we can't handle it. Of course the intelligent ones know better but the reward of increased power and money make up for any distortions.

It's called moral relativism and it's the only game in town since the Bush Administration has taken over ALL three Branches of our Government.

[Ms_Mary]

28. Smart?

[mattclearing]

6. People will bend the facts to support their pre-existing beliefs.

This is a slow battle being waged. People like her likely cannot be converted.

Most younger people know better. If we give them support and our leaders show them true leadership, perhaps we can count on a turnaround, given we reform our voting systems.

People like this are out there, and they believe in the Republicans just as doggedly and unswervingly as we believe in progressives and Democrats.

They tend to demonize the other side the same way we do.

And they tend to see the shortcomings in the other side and impugn the motives of the other side the same way we do.

So much of politics is based on dogma and provincialism and heredity. The issues, however, are not.

Unfortunately, a sizable portion of the people don't seem to vote on the issues.

[jackster]

9. most younger people know better?

I'm not so sure about that - I am always amazed at the number of young people - under 30 - heck under 25 - who support the rethugs no matter WHAT they do

I wonder if this has anything to do with the demise of our public education system - at one time students were taught to reason - but these young people haven't an inkling of reasoning. They only know to follow what they've heard over and over.

Actually, come to think of it - this is all Raygun's fault. How many youngster's have you heard froth over him because he was "god" when they were young?

[mattclearing]

13. Maybe it's just my DC area upbringing, but

Young people around here don't dig Bush. Their role models (See 90% of hip-hop and rock artists) don't dig Bush.

Out in the heartland may be a different story, but college campuses are still overwhelmingly liberal.

Like I said, provincialism and dogma rule the day until people are educated.

That why the Republicans hate education.

[jswordy]

16. This whole thread hits on a central issue.

There are 2 schools of thought about political opinions.

One school says you can persuade someone else and get them to change their political opinion.

The second school says that only major events can really change adamently held political opinions.

Personally, I reject the first school (on which John Kerry ran for president) and accept the second (on which the next successful Democrat will become president by being adept at drawing a contrast). Events are what will change people's opinions over time, not persuasion (which, in today's charged atmosphere, is basically a synonym for arguing).

It is not a matter of being smart or lazy...IQ and personal drive have little to do with political opinions or convictions. There are smart and dumb folks, busy and lazy people, in both parties. Time and again, the largest influence on general political alignment is found to be family and early life experiences.

But voters can be swayed by major events (a perception the party in power is ineffectual or leading the country in the wrong direction) and by contrasts drawn by the opposition candidate that link to those events.

An excellent example is the dirty little secret most Democrats do not want to touch with a 10-foot pole -- that many, many churchgoing folks who are essentially Democrats in ideology voted for Bush this time, even though they split their tickets to vote Democratic in other races. Events unanswered by contrasts from Kerry drove those voters to Bush, who did a much better job of defining himself by those events than Kerry ever even thought of doing.

As a party, we need to learn these lessons, so I will recap in brief:

1.) One is not stupid or lazy because one holds conservative values, anymore than liberals are smarter or more industrious by being liberal.

2.) Events and contrasts sway the electorate to an opposition candidate, not persuasion/arguing.

If we learn these bedrock things, I believe we can win again.

[Q]

20. Or it could be no more complicated...

...that lies versus truth and right versus wrong. There is no magic formula for winning elections beyond being a believable liar or a sincere truth teller.

[jswordy]

25. Sorry but life experience shows me that...

..."lie" and "truth," and "right" and "wrong" are highly subjective terms that far too often are mistakenly taken as absolutes.

In areas of China, for example, it is considered the right thing to do to take a newborn daughter up into the hills and leave her there to starve and die, because sons are preferred. There is no social taboo against that. But in the U.S., that is wrong. It's murder.

Another example: In many countries, and even among some populations in the U.S., it is fine to eat dogs as food. But that is wrong to the dominant society in the U.S. Meanwhile, our consumption of cows as a commodity food item would be wrong in India, where they are sacred.

This lie/truth, right/wrong dichotomy can be seen everywhere, on both the macro and micro levels.

So I try to keep my intellectual discourse in areas other than alleged absolutes, because I think in reality there are few true absolutes. Even time itself has been proven not to be absolute.

[Geek_Girl]

37. I agree with you on right and wrong

Right and Wrong, evil and good are subjective. But truth and lie or not. Either something is factual or it is not. It is definitive there is no gray area. ie Either Saddam Hussein had WMD or he did not.

[Sal Minella]

30. Malnutrition causes mental impairment.....

and the only vegetable these kids had was ketchup.

[damntexdem]

17. Well, remember that they see ...

getting the heretofore disenfranchised public to vote as "cheating."

And after 2000, just asking for fair counting of votes cast is seen as cheating.

This is why the Washington governor's race has become so amusing -- a Rethug out in the cold, saying 'we was robbed.' Of course what would not be so amusing would be if the WA governorship were somehow handed to the GOP, on the basis that GOP claims of being robbed are pure truth, while others' claims are 'cheating.'

[JNelson6563]

18. That's what they do Q

They here a lie from one of the Lying Liars and then they repeat it. Often. They repeat it until they themselves are thoroughly convinced and they have hooked as many of the unsuspecting and uninformed into their fictional world.

Orwell laid out the perfect plan long ago, the GOP has been working on achieving it for some 30-odd years. It's coming along very well, I must say.

Julie

[Q]

22. I'm tired of this kind of BS being characterized...

...as 'just someone's opinion'. They're either lying and know it or they don't want to admit the truth. Either way they're being as deceitful as those they're are trying to protect.

[CatWoman]

23. *sigh*

today was the first day that I tuned into Washington Journal since the election, only to be "greeted" by that ignorant bitch's rant.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Q]

29. I hadn't watched Journal for almost a year...

...and it only took me five minutes to remember why I turned it off in the first place.

[Orangepeel]

24. let's concede that cheating happens on the left

if it will get republicans on board the bandwagon to have randomly audited voter verified voting.

[CatWoman]

26. ORANGEPEEL!!!!!!

How ya doing??!!?? :hi:

[Orangepeel]

32. Hi, Catwoman!!!

I'm doing good. How are you! I've been around. I'm just posting on threads that, apparently, nobody reads!

:hi:

[Q]

27. You'd think that election reform would be bipartisan in nature...

...and in a sense it is: neither party seems to want it.

[GOPBasher]

31. Your second paragraph is a keeper.

That's so perfectly said.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Q]

34. There's that word 'perfect' again...

...and I don't see anyone asking for perfection. What we DO want is honesty, integrity and to have these cheating, lying politicians agree to election reform.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

38. Nice try. Ukraine, Romania went for new elections. Surprise, the

suspicions of fraud (of one side) were confirmed - as in both re-votes the results flipped. My question to you: is in this country democracy cheaper than in east Europe? If they couldn't live with fraud, why can we? (You, that is, I can't - see my handle)

[imabadman]

41. Trust me,

if John Kerry had the slightest amount of evidence that there was enough fraud to place the outcome in question, he would have mounted a vigorous challenge.

The long and short of it is simple: Kerry lost.

[Q]

44. It seems the People lost just as much or more than Kerry...

...because he's still a Senator will millions of dollars in the bank and the people have been screwed out of free and fair elections. It's very disturbing that he only seems concerned about election fraud IF the outcome of the election is involved.

[ElectroPrincess]

45. I'm NOT a believer! Kerry is presently a gutless wonder.

[robbedvoter]

46. Trust you? Just reading your handle prevents me from it.

Cowardice doesn't mean acnowledgement of defeat.

[LynnTheDem]

39. And ya KNOW she's one of the 60% bushers who think Iraq had WMD,

Iraq did 911, and the whole entire world or most of it, supported bush's invasion.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

And then majorities of Bush supporters incorrectly assumed he supports multilateral approaches to various international issues, including the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) (69 percent), the land mine treaty (72 percent), and the Kyoto Protocol to curb greenhouse gas emissions that contribute to global warming (51 percent).

In all of these cases, majorities of Bush supporters said they favoured the positions that they imputed, incorrectly, to the president.

http://globalsecurity.com/world_politics/mass_delusion.htm

So really...the majority of bush supporters are really really dumb. And did I mention, wrong?