The Skull and Bones

[mr715]

I read a few posts regarding a Bush/Kerry conspiracy regarding Skull & Bones connections.

I just want to state that its pretty offensive that people assign fraud and conspiracy to fraternities.

If you aren't a member, don't pretend to understand the politics of the organization. I'm a member of the same Fraternity (not S&B) as Bush and I didn't vote for him.


M

[cheezus]

1. you're OFFENDED?

what's offensive about questioning the dealings of a powerful secret society?

[mr715]

5. Because

Its not different than blaming the Pope for convincing Catholic Kerry from kowtowing (which he didnt) to Bush.

The Skull and Bones is an organization. If you believe in conspiracies from the S&B, then you ought to also believe in the Masons, the Illuminaties, the Cross and Key, the Knights Templar, the Knights of the Grail, the Knights of the Garter, and countless others.

Bush and Kerry were members of Delta Kappa Epsilon and the Skull and Bones at Yale.

I suspect they might have had beers. I do not think they have telepathy, the ability to transform themselves into bats, survive by sucking the blood of virgins, and made a deal such that the democratic party would lose in this election.

Hey by the way, since I assume most people who are complaining about S&B aint members of Fraternities, lemme clue ya'll in.

Kerry was senior, so Fraternity bylaws would mandate he get to be President over Bush.

Now if you dont mind, I wanna toss a football, pound some beers, and have some Fraternal pride!!


M

[Worst Username Ever]

8. Tap the keg for me too.

Beta, but we've never had presidents. Unless you want to include Sam Walton, but no thanks.

[mr715]

14. I'm

DKE Beta Gamma

[Worst Username Ever]

16. Sorry, I meant

Beta, as in Beta Theta Pi. Beta Pi branch out of U of MN. Graduated '99 though.

[TwilightZone]

9. Follow-up

The Skull and Bones is an organization. If you believe in conspiracies from the S&B, then you ought to also believe in the Masons, the Illuminaties, the Cross and Key, the Knights Templar, the Knights of the Grail, the Knights of the Garter, and countless others.

Many of the people that believe in the S&B stuff probably DO buy into the theories about those other organizations.

Edit: minor wording change

[mr715]

11. See

But then the Skull and Bones are a particularly weak secret society.

If you buy into all the secret society stuff, then the Skull and Bones have produced many many powerful people cause they're rich and white and politically connected.

The Knights of the Grail's claim to fame is something along the lines of being able to understand the mind of God and manipulate the Earth's magnetic fields using crystals.

Damn those losers in the S&B. They must be Grail Knight rejects.

(I studied secret societies in England)

[TwilightZone]

12. Hehe....

They must be Grail Knight rejects.

Now THAT was funny. :)

On the secret society topic, keep in mind that there are a certain number of people who will believe almost anything, particularly if it's posted on the Internet. That's why our e-mail boxes are often loaded with stupid stories that were forwarded and have been debunked a million times and why spam is so inconceivably effective.

[Cats Against Frist]

45. Oh, can I ask you a question, then?????

I've been trying to find this for years. I saw it on the Internet in 1997, and haven't been able to re-locate it since. It was about some "secret society" that, for some reason was either involved in taking or got off on looking at X-rays of girls. Seems it was New England Ivy League or Prep school kind of stuff. Real creepy. Do you know what it was?

[mr715]

46. No clue

No clue what it was. Thats very weird.

[Geek_Girl]

36. Don't take this the wrong way

But the Skull and Bones is the most influential and elite fraternity in the country. That's not really a conspiracy theory I think it's pretty much reported by reputable journalist. Maybe I'm reading to much Kitty Kelly but she even describes the fraternity as an fraternal organization that pledges loyalty to one another over everyone else.

I'm not saying that there is a conspiracy between Kerry and Bush just that I can see why it is suspect. I wouldn't take it personally.

[mr715]

38. Well...

I believe all Fraternities do that pledge to each other over everyone else.

Boyscouts do it too. Its not that the Skull and Bones are spectacular, but they are the intellectual and social elite for at least 20 generations.

The fact is, though, that if you believe them to be the root cause of a conspiracy that undermines democracy, it seems unusual that they are so unspectacular. They have practices which are common Fraternal practices (at least as far as I know)

Skull and Bones is an organization which takes the best of the best at Yale (i.e. the best of the best of the best)

Little wonder rich people end up being connected to it. Further - little wonder a brilliant man like Kerry was a member. Little wonder that the legacy of a legacy (GWB) was a member.

I think its unfair to say that democracy fails where Fraternities begin. Skull and Bones is a game for college students that like being dramatic.

I'm sure they circle-jerk as much as Pi Kappa Alpha.


M

[TwilightZone]

2. S&B is a convenient response when a poster does not want to...

justify a position with facts or rationale.

[Worst Username Ever]

3. Which fraternity was bush jr in?

Was he DKE? I think his dad was SAE if I am not mistaken.

On edit: S&B is not really a fraternity by the standard definition...

[mr715]

7. George Herbert Walker Bush

Was a member of Delta Kappa Epsilon.

DKE produced Hayes, TDR, FDR, Ford, Bush, WBush, and Kerry

[Iris]

69. DKE "produced" them?

That's a bit of a loaded statement.

[mr715]

74. Look

You know what I mean. They were members. Thats all thats implied.

[Iris]

76. yeah, ok.

I'm very active as an alum in my sorority and I know how these things can sound. So I try to be careful myself.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

4. I don't believe in that particular theory

because I don't see why Kerry would spend more than a year campaigning with barely any sleep for the sole reason of putting on a "show" for the American people.. It just doesn't make sense.

[Malva Zebrina]

6. Is this a "conspiracy theory"?

I have difficulty understanding this.

It has been said that Kerry and Bush have some pre ordained, compulsive loyalty to each other because they both were members of the S&B.

How did Kerry get into the same so called, "secret" society of the S&B as Bush anyhow?

and why?

Was it for recognition and respect,for the hanging of a banner upon oneself as being associated with the priveledged, not especially earned, but manipulated by hanging out with those with influence, so one gets to belong to the elite secret society and is in with the in crowd?

Bush was there because of his father's influence, but Kerry had none of that dynasty influence.

[peacetalksforall]

10. No secret society can be defended.

Skull & Bones is a secret society, hardly your typical fraternity.

No member of a secret entity can defend its secrecy with a statement and expect people to say "Oh? Oh....OK!". It would be imbecilic to do so.

[mr715]

13. Thats unfair

All Fraternities are secret societies, whose practices are known only to their members.

DKE/S&B, Sigma Chi/Cross&Key, etc.

I'm a member of a particular religion. Someone asks me about my religion, I say "Its personal, I dont wanna answer that."

Imagine a club devoted to coming to grips with your sexuality. Do you begrudge its members for maybe not being willing to admit they are members?

Suppose a religious, religious Christian is gay and is in a support group to "come out", but he doesnt wanna tell his family.

Fraternities are organizations with secret practices its members CHOOSE to keep secret. Its not immoral.

Things in abundence are never valued. Secrets make membership treasured.

[orpupilofnature57]

15. The frat mentality in general is childish, and besides good ole mentality

Serves no purpose of sense of community,shrine of narcissist camp.

[Worst Username Ever]

17. Nice generalization

but false, unfortunately. To say that something has no purpose is to say that it has no reason for existing. If a fraternity exists, then obviously people find a purpose for it, and a value in joining. Put down the copy of Animal House and talk to people who actually were in one.

[orpupilofnature57]

19. I said purpose of community. And no, i wont put down a classic

[mr715]

18. Hey dude

I like having friends I can count on.

Its not about narcisism.

You didnt join, please dont presume to understand my reasons for joining.

M

[orpupilofnature57]

20. SORRY FOR THE ASSUMPTION

[leesa]

53. So does Bush. This is really a stupid post! DUDE.

[LetsGoMurphys]

29. stupid statement

I'm in a fraternity that does a lot of good for the community and the student population. You were probaly one of those people who were jealous of our social life. Don't forget success breeds contempt.

[The Gigmeister]

50. You're clueless.

Did you know that fraternities and sorities tend to account for the majority of philanthropic activities on many campus'??

I'm quite sure you didn't.

I went to Ball State University and was in a fraternity. The Greek system there accounted for 90% of all philanthropic activity. We helped old people in the winter and organized spring and fall activities for orphans.

Personally, I had my fraternal brothers as friends (Where else can you go each friday and drink beer with 200 pretty ladies?), and my non-Greek friends. You have a problem with multiple groups of friends?


Maybe you were rejected by the Greek system, which would account for your statements??

[orpupilofnature57]

73. All my Friends are in the SAME "group" called my Friends, phony

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. How exactly do you know what the 'frat mantality' is?

:shrug:

[MadHound]

71. Thank you friend

I've been around frats most of my life, and excepting for some rare exceptions, they cause more harm than good. Violence, academic cheating, racism, date rapes, even up to riots revolve around the Greek system, yet since for the most part they are the children of the wealthy and powerful, little if any punishment is ever dealt out to these spoiled brats.

Yes, there are small college frats that have more emphasis on philanthropic and charity activities, but on every big school campus that I've been on, the Greek system is based on social functions for the children of the well off and powerful, with charity relegated to a secondary status, a chore to be performed in order to look good.

For all of you frat members out there, well, flame away if you want. My perceptions of the Greek system don't arise out of misplaced envy(why in the world would I want to be a frat clone), but come from my interactions and observations of the Greek life. Deny this all you want, but I think that my observations of Greek life are much closer to the reality of the matter than your romantic alcohol tinged memories of the "good old days"

[IndianaGreen]

21. Skull & Bones is not a Greek house

Comparing Skull & Bones to Sigma Chi or Tri-Delts is comparing apples and rocks. S&K is something far more sinister, based on ancient German satanic cult, it is the pod in which the children of the most elite build the relationships and influence that will help them in the future.

[mr715]

23. Wrong

The history of Fraternities is pretty linear.

They are not "Satanic", they are pagan.

The history of Fraternities began in the dark ages with the Knights of the Grail, which is an organization supposedly devoted to the protection of the secrets of Christ. In the Knights of the Grail tradition, Christ was not the son of God, but was actually a member of a antedeluvian society who knew the secrets of nature.

The Knights of the Grail expanded in France and Germany to be the Teutonic knights which drew a great deal on Norse mythology.

The Teutonic knights became the Knights Templar during the Crusades.

They were abolished by Pope Pious in about 1400 and excommunicated for heresy. They remained powerful in France, when Phillip reformed them under the name of the Knights of the Garter (after he and his associates took a garter from a lady in his court)

In England, the Knights of the Garter took root in Scotland, where their practices became associated with the stone mason's guild and a strong democratic tradition. The stonemason's guild became known as the Fraternal order of Freemasonry.

The Freemasons came to the United States from Scotland and developed into various organizations - the Hellfire Club, The Skull and Bones, the Cross and Key, the Illuminati, the Druids, etc.

Those organizations existed before any real established university presense, so "lower" organizations where formed to serve as recruiting grounds for their associated higher fraternities.

For example, Sigma Chi serves as the lower-class recruitment organization for Cross and Key. Delta Kappa Epsilon is the low class recruiting ground for S&B

The first of these was, of course, Phi Beta Kappa, which remains a recruiting ground for the most exclusive organization of all - graduates Summa cum Laude.

Kindly IndianaGreen, do not tell me about Fraternities until you've joined one. Or read a book on one.

[emulatorloo]

32. I thought Yale was the pod in which the children etc build relationships

Skull and Bones was just for the parties. . .

[BrightKnight]

22. Calling S&B a fraternity is absurd. Research before you post!

The S&B organization was not founded as a fraternity and it has never acted like a fraternity. The organization was founded by a specific group of people for a specific purpose.

The organization has always exercised an enormous influence in this country. They are about power. Given the amount of influence that they have had in this country, it is reasonable to question their activities. Given their sickening history, it is reasonable to question their motives.

I don't really have the time or energy to post a detailed indictment. There are a number of books written on the subject. Do the research and people will happy to discuss specific points of concern. Posting baseless assertions really should not be tolerated here.

-----------
Members of this organization are known to have acted to determine the outcome of one election. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that might have been involved in another. I don't know if thay had anything to do with the current election. I am troubled that they are near it.

They have clearly acted as a group to achieve common goals in the past. This appears to be true even in the recent past. Perhaps there are different factions?

The organization has always had very close ties to the intelligence community. The Bush family's CIA connection is directly linked to this organization. It should not be a surprise the Kerry was a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

[mr715]

25. Causal...Fallacy...

Okay. People use cards to tell the future. Therefore playing cards tell the future. Therefore everyone who plays cards tells the future.

Skull and Bones was founded at Yale as an academic organization. It wasnt about power, it was about poetry.

It happens that because they take the intellectual elite (and now, the most successful members of DKE ) they also end up getting power.

I went to a school that produced 7 nobel prize winners. Clearly there is a secret organization associated with my school that influences the nobel endowment.

Its obvious that thats a causal fallacy. The best go to Yale. The people who can pledge a Frat and still remain at a 4.0 GPA also get tapped to join Skull and Bones. Those people make connections, and they're already pretty smart. So duh, they do well.

And maybe Kerry was on the intelligence committee because he speaks like 63 languages. Maybe its because he's well travelled. Maybe its cause he's smart and did international relations in college.

Or maybe Lord Mephisto, the High Wizard of the Skull and Bones sacrified a virgin and made him appointed by Senator Mitchell or whoever back in the day.

[XemaSab]

65. How does that explain

the presence of W in the organization?

He didn't have awesome grades, and he's clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[mr715]

67. Wealth

Money and legacy. A dad who is the director of the CIA helps.

[XemaSab]

75. Word

n/t

[MADem]

43. It was a feeder for OSS

...during WW2, and also for CIA, NSA and so on. You can figure that a fair percentage of them have, if not taken direct employment with these agencies, done some work in a covert capacity at some time during their lives, even if only as a cooperating witness or a bagman.

I don't know if it is as influential as it was in the past, though, but there are plenty of members who wield a great deal of clout who are still out and about.

[BrightKnight]

44. Bush selected 5 bonesmen for his administration.

[NAO]

24. Skull and Bones not merely "a fraternity" - it's an elite secret society

Skull and Bones is not about keg parties and girls and pranks. Only 15 people per year are admitted, and somehow they all end up in the highest positions in government and industry.

I don't know how much of the election outcome I would atrribute to Skull and Bones. If it's anything at all, it's not some creepy conspiracy. It is possible that the Bonesman have an agreement not to upset the system or do anything which would seriously interrupt commerce and the flow of cash away from the people and into the deep pockets of the ultra-wealthy. Contesting the election, and causing a crisis of government would have done just that.

So that's possible, but it's not creepy, just ordinary greed.

[mr715]

26. Technically...

Its a Fraternity - but you're right. Unlike most lettered organizations, its less about keg parties and girls.

It has stayed to its roots, which is accepting the best and only the best.

Its also not unusual that they recruit people that do so well. Follow my logic.

The people who go to Yale are more likely to do well than those that go to Dumbschool 123

The people who go to Yale and pledge and still do well are likely to succeed.

The people who are admitted to the Skull and Bones are those people.

People who meet other successful people are more likely to make connections than those who dont.

Therefore, as a matter of logic, the members of Skull and Bones are just more likely to end up with friends in high places.

I'm a Deke. I'm not a Bonesman. I'll tell you this - just because one of my brothers is an investment banker does not mean he will commit fraud for me.

[BrightKnight]

30. That sounds like sophomoric sophistry.

[mr715]

31. Sophistry is...

Using equivocation. Sophistry uses words with multiple meanings.

A pen is a writing instrument
Pens are filled with pigs.
Therefore I am writing with someone filled with pigs.

What I offered to this forum is a more parsimonious explanation for S&B producing so many powerful people.

Occam's Razor - the simplest solution is usually the best

You've offered nothing but conjecture and attacks. Prove to me that the Skull and Bones made Kerry lose.

M

[rman]

48. Occam's Razor; the simplest explanation that fits the data

is usually the best. To fit the data the explanation may still be quite complicated - as complicated as need be in order to fit the data.

Groups of the most powerful people discussing matters that are relevant to all people - in secret - that's anti-democratic. It perfectly fits the Machiavellian/Straussian/neo-con/neo-liberal philosophy that the people are to dumb to understand, so that these matters have to be discussed in secret.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

72. so George W. Bush was "the best and only the best"

i have heard it reported that W was a average student, why would he be accepted into an organisation of such high caliber?

you said:
"It has stayed to its roots, which is accepting the best and only the best."

[Pepperbelly]

27. You mean we weren't skull and boned? nt

[mr715]

28. Not exactly.

We were boned, but Skull and Bones wasnt involved.

Kinda like getting gored while Al Gore is safely away in Tennessee

[DemoTex]

33. Strangest thread ever.

Interesting and informative, but strange (kind of like S&B).

BTW: I have an old family friend who is a Boneser. He has been on our suicide watch for 30 years. He is a most unlikely candidate for S&B. The weirdest things about the guy would probably identify him to anyone familiar with the S&B gig at New Haven. Let it suffice to say that his life, in his mid-50s, is still nothing but S&B.

[mr715]

34. Heh

Is he involved in secret, destruction of the world conspiracies? ;)






M

[DemoTex]

35. No, he is too fucked up to do that!

But he does still live in New Haven. Very close to S&B.

[rfkrfk]

37. is Kerry a Skull and Bones legacy ?

clearly, shrub is

[mr715]

39. No

Kerry was tapped for Skull and Bones as a result of him being called "Mr. President" by the student body.

In general, the Skulls select the President of Delta Kappa Epsilon (Bush) if he's qualified (Bush's dad and his dad's dad were Bonesmen)

Kerry was not the President of Delta Kappa Epsilon, but was tapped because everyone expected him to do great things.

Thats why Skull/Bones is so powerful. They take the best. They dont make the best.

[DemoTex]

40. Ooops, you told too much.

They will be coming for you, 715. Too bad, so sad, you were a DUer for so shortly! Bye, bye.

[Geek_Girl]

41. So Dubya was the Best?

:eyes:

[mr715]

47. Not in my eyes

But I'd wager in the eyes of a great many, he is.

I should reword it to say they accept the people with potential to rule.

[rfkrfk]

42. not necessarily the best

I would think that these people would choose...
persons who they think will be influential, in the future.
I assume that the Forbes' got him in, but I don't know that.
I would not assume that everything about SnB membership is
publicly known, nor do I believe that everything they say is true.

[The Gigmeister]

49. Ignore the kooks...Or better yet, Alert them!

The Tsuanmi kooks were silenced and its my hope more of them will be. They're counter-productive towards the discussions of real issues and I suspect most of them are just here to start trouble.

[robbedvoter]

51. yeahy! democracy be damned, let's fight for the dignity of fraternities!

I guess candidates DO get the supporters they deserve.

We had to push up over Kerry's dead body yesterday.

[Bridget Burke]

52. But as a member of the same frat as Bushie.....

Aren't you required to defend him, no matter what? Here's Mount Dekemore:



http://www.dke.org/

[mr715]

60. He looks so stupid...

No. Hes my Fraternity brother, but I didnt vote for him. I voted for Kerry (who also was a Deke).

But I also voted for Gore. Who wasnt.

Frats dont require you like every member. Its just that you share a common experience with people.

THats my point. Skull and Bones doesnt impose a power on Bush to dominate Kerry.

[Ravenseye]

54. You know it's funny...

...people on this board post topics about whether the neo-cons set off a nuke to start the tsunami, how evolution doesn't happen, etc and get flamed. Then they mention the neo-con conspiracy and people talk earnestly about it.

Mention Skull and Bones and it seems like most people on this board poo poo the very idea that there could be a consipracy in play.

No matter how you want to label it, Skull and Bones is not a fraternity any more than it is a sorority. It's not affiliated with the university in any way and is a private 'social' society. The fact that Bush was in a fraternity as well as S&B seems to be evidence that it ISN'T a fraternity. Can you belong to two different greek fraternities in your house?

As far as fraternal brothers helping each other, don't tell me that doesn't happen. I've seen with my own eyes someone get hired over another person who was (granted only slightly) more qualified simply because they were members of the same national fraternity and had never met.

Yes Yale, generally, takes some of the best students. Yes Skull and Bones generally pick students with the best chance to succeed. That doesn't preclude the obvious, which is they HELP each other after that. Even a small group of college friends will help each other succeed, but this is a long standing secretive organization which is all about power. To think they don't go out of their way to help each other is absurd.

As far as Kerry having 'Seniority', I don't think it works that way. As for me I don't think there is some higher echelon of Skull and Bones calling the shots here, but I think that there were plenty of discussions in the S&B circles about this election. They didn't care who won directly. Either way an S&B member was the President.

Getting offended when people consider the implications of this makes me think you're pretty sensitive. Relax. It's a valid discussion.

[rfkrfk]

55. any other DKEs, we need to look out for? n/t

[Ravenseye]

56. Personally I never trusted Hayes

Don't you think it's interesting that the electoral vote has been contested by congress three times. Once only breifly in 1969 over Nixon to consider an elector who changed their vote for wallace.

The other two times were now with Bush, and before in 1876 with Rutherford B. Hayes. Both men were DKE.

Coincidence?

Tilden won the popular vote, but four states were contested. Here's from Wikipedia...

"After months of deliberation and bargaining, Southern Democrats were assured that if Hayes were elected, he would pull federal troops out of the south and end Reconstruction. In return, the Democrats agreed to a committee to determine the final outcome of the election. The committee, which consisted of eight Republicans and seven Democrats, voted to give all the disputed electoral votes to Hayes. The Republicans justified this by claiming that the problem in these states was over who had the right to vote. The Democrats, on the other hand, felt that they had been robbed of the presidency, and called Hayes "Rutherfraud.""

Kinda interesting coincidence.

[mr715]

62. Oh Lord

Okay - go after the dekes.

FDR is a Deke. He founded the modern democratic party.

Kerry is a Deke.

Tony Knowles is a Deke.

[Ravenseye]

64. Mua Ha Ha

Come on. I thought with a subject line of "Personally I never trusted Hayes" would sort of mark it as a snarky sarcastic 'ha ha' comment.

Must be my dry sense of humor.

You know who else is a Deke?

Only the man destroying America's Pasttime. George Steinbrenner. How you can have a professional sports league where the top team can spend more on two players than another team can spend on it's entire Major and Minor league payroll?

George Steinbrenner. Deke. Enemy of America.

[mr715]

61. Reply

In the case of DKE and Skull and Bones, yes you can belong to both.

At Yale (and only Yale), the Skull and Bones is a society for Yale seniors who were, in previous years, members of DKE. Skull and Bones predates DKE by 50 years or so.

As for being affilitated with the University, how many Frats are affiliated with their university? At NYU we have chapters of lots of Frats which are not recognized by the university itself.

Skull and Bones doesnt follow university rules of submitting membership lists, devoting 50% of profit to charity, etc. Thats why they aint recognized. And they aint a member of the interfraternal council either. But they're a social organization - a fraternity.

And I totally agree that Bonesmen help each other. But its not a function of the fraternity - its a function of friendship. There is no conspiracy...


M

[Ravenseye]

66. There is no conspiracy

Hey guy. Take a load off. Look over there.

:)

[propagandafreegal]

58. Skull and Bones is just the beginning what about the

Council of Foreign Relations, Bildenberger group etc etc.

There is a thread that ties all the bit whigs together

Clinton, Kerry, Bush 1, Bush 2, Clark, the list goes on......

[Vektor]

59. I like to call it the "Bull and Shit" theory.

It was forty friggin' years ago. They were COLLEGE KIDS. And...they did not even KNOW each other at Yale.

[Withywindle]

68. How about "Cock & Bull"? n/t

[Vektor]

70. That's a good one too.

Which one is the cock and which one's the bull? :-)

[AntiFascist]

63. Anyone know anything about the Yale secret society.....

Book & Snake?

[Borgnine]

77. This post makes me want to go watch Animal House.

Or at the very least, Revenge of the Nerds.

[InvisibleBallots]

78. screw anyone involved in Skull & Bones

Sounds creepy to me, and now that Kerry gave up as soon as he could you have to admit it seems suspicious. I won't vote for Kerry ever again, that's for sure. I'd rather vote Green or Libertopian.