Hillary Clinton led Jesse Jackson to believe she would vote YES according

[BrklynLiberal]

AirAmericaRadio news this AM.

[soleft]

1. What's the story with Reid and Obama

I'm sure it was discussed on other threads, but I thought they were onboard - did that mean only to give lip service during the debates?

[incapsulated]

4. Yeah, WTF was up with that "list"

Of Senators that were supposed to "stand" with Boxer? Was that a mistake, that they only meant to make a speech, or did they cave?

:wtf:

[xultar]

7. None of us know if it was true yet we are ready to blast with the CAVE IN

:wtf: is up with that?

Kinda like the right wing getting part of the story making up the rest and behaving as though its already true before the truth is known.

[incapsulated]

9. Did I say they "caved"?

No. I asked a question. Was it a mistake or did they cave?

Jeez.

[xultar]

12. Why not assume it was a mistake only? Let it go at that...so many

of us here already have a nasty negative tone where Hillary is concerned. I guess I wondered, why even add the cave part.

With all of the negativity self-loathing and ridiculousness here today I guess even I've become touchy.

It seems that most of the folks here would rather blame and throw in the towel than do anything constructive.

What were we expecting yesterday? They'd over turn the election?

[incapsulated]

21. I put Hillary in office, she is my Senator

I voted for Hillary, she wouldn't be Senator now if not for my vote and I will say whatever I please about her.

I don't like posts about her that are transparently sexist or anti-Clinton, but I'm not kissing her ass, either. She is a mixed bag.

People have reason to be upset right now, this party is a total mess.

I certainly never expected them to overturn the election, that was over when Kerry seceded, but I don't know what the hell got accomplished yesterday.

[ldf]

47. hillary is MY senator, too

and it is my understanding she did make a speech in support of ms. boxer.

but then she turns around and votes NOT to question the vote???

to me that is speaking out of both sides of your mouth, which is exactly the problem that has gotten us to where we are today. WE CAN NOT BE ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE. and SOME people are just wrong on the issues, which is a matter of us educating them (if we had access to a media...)

i'm a big clinton fan, but i am coming more and more to the conclusion that since the party is:

not going to take a stand (and continue to lose),

and not going to question the votes (and continue to lose),

and not going to fight the fraud (and continue to lose),

and not going to fight fire with fire (and continue to lose),

and not going to listen to their base (and continue to lose),

with the end result of the democrats never winning, never being able to address the real issues that affect everyday americans, moving further and further to the right to the point of just being more of the same.... (yet they still have their job, their pay, their benefits, their pension, their pathetic pride, while we have nothing.)

then why the hell should we return ANY OF THEM to washington?

i don't give a damn about their careers. they are just making a career of losing.

we need to practice some tough love. give them a little dose of reality. NONE OF THEM ARE ANYTHING WITHOUT US.

and it's time they need to recognize that little fact.

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[genius]

61. Voting against democracy is reprehensible

[DistressedAmerican]

66. I agree

Paying lip servide to the reform process then casting a no vote is little more than spineless ass covering. The way to take a stand was to vote yes, period. Anything less is trying to have your cake and eat it to. I supported it (to supporters) and I opposed it (to opponents of the action). Just following Kerry's lead I suppose.

[incapsulated]

62. Stupid typo: seceded=conceded

Too late to edit. :dunce:

[PATRICK]

49. Keep the protocol straight

Some people without thinking were criticizing House memebers who did not "sign up". Hastings represented Florida as the challenge issue in 2000. Tubbs from Ohio this time as is fitting. There were no Dem Senators from Ohio to apporpriately ask. Boxer seemed most moved by conscience from 2000 to represent the Senate.

THEN it comes to judging the speeches in the debate and the final vote. People who MAY have signed the letter also qualified it would not change the election. This was always going to be a symbolic protest and never rose above that level much and with many Dem Senators, was an unwelcome sealing of their lame views. Funny how the party always finds itself in lose/lose situations by not speaking for the right causes in a unified voice. Small wonder that the easy thing is to duck the spotlight altogether or pretend there is an honest manistream.

Obama is in an untenable position in this sorry tribe as a newcomer. Reid is blindly floundering in accomodation and a vanishing base and doesn't even know it. I don't think the party leadership as a whole has the correct gist of the situation or its demands, but is too smart to accept how ineffectual and dumb their position is.

[hiley]

2. Tell us more

I did not listen this morning and am very interested in what her problem is ? If she thinks she is getting in the WH on my back she is crazy !

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zenlitened]

5. I'm a Hillary fan myself.

I understand that there are sincere Democrats who dislike her, but I really don't understand why.

I think this is a major issue that we need to find a way to resolve, somehow. I'd frankly love to vote for her for president, but I can't see that happening when so many on our own side dislike her. :(

[xultar]

6. In that way they are like the Rethug, NeoCon, Freeper types...afraid

of a STRONG WOMAN.

[propagandafreegal]

8. Former Hilary fan here ro...

the more I look the more she is just drunk with power w/ her eyes on being the first female prez.

[lancdem]

11. She's not running in 2008

If she were, she wouldn't be runninf for reelection to the Senate in 2006.

[IrateCitizen]

31. Huh?

What do the two have to do with one another? She could most certainly run for the Senate in 2006, and then the Presidency in 2008.

[IStriker]

56. Huh #2? Care to explain or attempt to make sense of your post

[DistressedAmerican]

67. Listen to their statements and no one is running in '08

with the possible exception of Joe Biden who says he is proceeding as if he were going to run. What's with all of the fear of saying you want this job or that. They always deny it. Why? I really don't get it.

[xultar]

14. How can you judge who is drunk with power and who isn't? Why isn't

Dean, Clark, Kerry, Gephardt, Graham, Obama, Edwards, Richardson,

How do you know? Let's not be so judgemental @ this point. Every bridge you burn is one less avenue you have to explore.

[IrateCitizen]

26. You're right. We shouldn't be "judgemental". We should look at records.

You know, like the one in the article by John Nichols posted by CWebster, below.

Or, we could just engage in hyperbole to try and tear down those who offer up inconvenient facts that don't jive with the line we're trying to advance.

[propagandafreegal]

33. I didn't say they weren't! nm

[Zenlitened]

10. Totally agree. Hillary-bashing...

... sets off my freep-radar every time. (Though I think the OP is a long-time DU'er who just happens not to like her.)

That lady is smart, articulate and a survivor. I sickens me to see so many people buying into the repuke spin about her.


(Edited for spelling)

[CWebster]

13. Get a clue:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0605-07.htm

and it's only been downhill from there.

[xultar]

16. What you had to go back a whole year to get that one? ok whatever..nt

[IrateCitizen]

23. Please list the assertions in the article you disagree with.

What? You aren't disputing any of them by offering alternative information? You're simply engaging in hyperbole in order to try and discount the point another poster is making that you just happen to disagree with?

"ok whatever..", indeed. :eyes:

[CWebster]

28. Okay, here's an update:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1209-33.htm

We can do better, especially when so much is at stake.

As a woman I would like a strong woman to represent us, it is not her.

[xultar]

34. So does that mean that you Dislike John Kerry as much as Hillary?

Why? We see you as a female equivalent of John Kerry, taking safe, centrist positions in general and, most glaringly, a wimpy stance on the war in Iraq.


Is this a DNC/DLC undercover fight here?

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IrateCitizen]

17. Thanks, CWeb. She's my Senator, and I can't stand her.

Of course, given the choice between her and an (R) in 2006, I'll pull the lever for her -- but she's really been nothing but a disappointment as a Senator.

A prime example being her support of bankruptcy reform in order to carry water for Wall St., after organizing opposition to it while First Lady. :grr:

[Zenlitened]

20. I just don't buy into the "not liberal enough" spin, either.

I have yet to find a politician with whom I agree on everything, but that doesn't mean I have to vault into a wholesale rejection of him or her.

I'm tired of the either/or, adoration/condemnation thing. Some degree of compromise is necessary, that's just one of life's realities.

[IrateCitizen]

29. Did you read the article? How exactly is it "spin"?

Her record is NOT liberal. It is, as Nichols described, solidly centrist. Furthermore, the comment she made to Feingold -- one of the most principled politicians around -- just turns me off to her even more.

[Zenlitened]

36. Yes, I read the article. Maybe I'm just not so willing to be "irate," OK?

I'd rather spend my energies searching out our strengths, rather than tearing each other down.

And just because Comm Dreams is on the left, doesn't mean I take their construction of data as gospel, either.

If a better candidate comes along, that's where I'll put my support, no question. But what are we accomplishing by tearing her down at this point, on a democratic board, at a time when the party is in desperate need of a practical, unifying, and energizing spirit?

[IrateCitizen]

38. Maybe that's proof that she ain't the cure to what ails us...

But what are we accomplishing by tearing her down at this point, on a democratic board, at a time when the party is in desperate need of a practical, unifying, and energizing spirit?

Maybe the fact that she engenders so much disaffection and even anger from the progressive wing of the party indicates that she's not really a "practical, unifying and energizing spirit". :shrug:

The article, BTW, was written by John Nichols, the editor of the Madison Capital Times. It was just picked up by CommonDreams.org. Nichols is certainly a liberal -- he also writes regularly for The Nation -- but his criticisms of Hillary's record are well-grounded in fact.

[Zenlitened]

39. Fine, point taken. But can't we at least agree...

... to refrain from piling on, at least for the time being?

:shrug:

[IrateCitizen]

43. How on earth is what I'm doing "piling on"?

You and xultar are the ones saying that nobody can hate Hillary Clinton for reasons outside of being afraid of a strong, independent, smart woman. Don't start raising a fuss when some of us take issue to that bold assertion, and instead attempt to demonstrate that there are very real issues upon which we find her to be far less than desirable as a politician.

Furthermore, when IS it acceptable to examine these issues, in your eyes? Part of moving forward dictates looking at the past to figure out what works and what doesn't. Otherwise, you're just flying blind.

[Zenlitened]

46. 'Bye, now. Enough of your negativity.

[lancdem]

15. If she did run

she'd have no trouble getting 90 percent of the Dem vote at minimum. I wouldn't worry about what some DUers say. There are people here who bitch about her husband, remember.

[Zenlitened]

24. I think you may be right. Maybe that's why...

... there's such a constant, determined effort to tear her down. I mean, it's non-stop.

[IrateCitizen]

27. Are you talking primaries, or General Election?

I don't think it would be the case in either. I think that much of the progressive wing of the party would bolt if she were the nominee (myself included in that). I also think that even if she got the vast majority of registered Dems, there would be too many independents voting AGAINST her. Furthermore, the RW would have WAY too easy of a time defining her, even easier than they defined John Kerry. She would also galvanize conservatives against her as well.

I think she'd be a disaster. I wouldn't vote for her as President. And she's my Senator.

[IrateCitizen]

19. That's bullshit, xultar.

She's my Senator, and if I have a chance to vote against her in a primary, I will do so enthusiastically. Why? It has nothing to do with her being a woman. In fact, I'd rather see MORE women in office. What it has to do with is her betrayal of the constituencies she claims to represent.

A prime example of this is her voting in favor of bankruptcy reform in order to carry water for Wall St. On NOW with Bill Moyers, I saw an interview with author and professor Elizabeth Warren, author of The Two Income Trap. In the course of the interview, Warren told of how the Clinton WH was coming out in favor of bankruptcy reform being pushed by credit card companies and Wall St. Warren met with Hillary over this issue, and Hillary ended up convincing the WH that it wasn't a good idea. When Hillary was a Senator, however, she voted IN FAVOR of this very idea.

Why? Because of political opportunism, that's why. It helped her garner the support of Wall St., which could then help her further her career. It's just too bad for all the people (particularly single mothers, the biggest group placed at risk) who will suffer increased hardships due to this bill. But hey, it's all good if it helps Hillary further her career.

I have nothing against intelligent, strong, driven women. Hell, I'm married to one -- and wouldn't have it any other way. What I am against is those who would sell out people who can't stick up for themselves in order to further their own ambition and career. It's a primary reason I'm not a Republican, and it makes me doubly mad when someone who tries to claim the mantle of a "liberal Democrat" does it.

[incapsulated]

30. Yep

And it's not the only case of her voting for some godawful thing to secure votes with a particular block.

[xultar]

32. You know what...I hope you do vote against her. I also hope the candidate

you do vote for wins...and then loses against the Rethug. Then you'll see that it isn't all black and white. There are some issues that our folks have to make trade offs on for greater good.

I like the fact that we think that everything is always how we perceive it to be. I like how if it doesn't go our way then the other person is in it for themselves and they are only in it for their carrer.

We've all had to make difficult decisions in our lives that weren't the best for the present but often made things better for down the road.

You make it sound so easy. I'd like to see you do what she does on a daily basis. I'd like you to deal with all of the shit she has slung @ her and she has to pick the BETTER SMELLING PILE OF SHIT.

For all of you who hate Hillary...HATE ON. For all of you who hate BILL CLINTON and whomever else...HATE THEM.

I just figured this out...this is because of the DLC/DNC thing. right? ROTFLMAO

Just know like I know. Things aren't perfect. When you get perfect try your halo on cuz you'll be dead. Maybe it is easier for me because I've had to put up with this shit because none of the parties serve any purpose for me a BF. But I side with this one I accept them warts and all.

Maybe you should shop around and find a party where everyone in office does EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT. IF oyu find them please let me know. You can look at any party, GO GREEN, REFORM, GO INDEPENDENT, GO RETHUG. GO ANYWHERE...but you'll keep shooting them all down and find you have nothing less.

[IrateCitizen]

41. You still haven't addressed the topic at hand, xultar

You say nothing about her switch on the bankruptcy reform in that post. NOTHING. Rather, you try to disparage me and tear me down, in an effort to bolster your defense of Hillary Clinton's votes in favor of a bankruptcy reform that stood to make life a lot more difficult for people already living on the economic fringe.

You're right, I DON'T go through the same things on a daily basis that Hillary Clinton does. Then again, I didn't aspire to gain all the power that she has, either. Nor have I aspired to get all the privilege that goes with that power, either.

The DLC/DNC charge is a nice touch, though. It seems to be becoming the modern equivalent on these boards of, "Are you or have you ever been a member of the communist party?"

But enough about all of this. This isn't about me, and it isn't about you -- it's about the viability of Hillary Clinton as a standard-bearer for the Democratic Party. It's about some of the questionable stands she's taken in the past, stands that seem to have much more to do with her consolidating power and influence, as opposed to sticking up for those people who need her advocacy the most. It would be nice if you could keep things on that topic, rather than turning it into a pop psychoanalysis as to why I harbor a perceived visceral hatred to all things CLINTON, and then attacking me for it.

[xultar]

44. Is that your only one ? I'm concerned about AIDS in the Black community

I don't have a stand on that issue. Must I. Should I have a stand on that issue. We don't need to have a stand on EVERY ISSUE.

[NuttyFluffers]

70. didn't you get the memo, blind obedience is 'the latest thing'

it's the latest craze sweeping DU. any criticism is deemed disloyal and a high crime of treason, even contructive criticism. reagan's 11th commandment is now supposed to apply to us, "thou shalt not criticize, break rank, or debate thine party leaders."

:eyes:

i totally get where you are coming from. it *is* possible to have a complex, adult relationship with others, where you can appreciate some things of what a person does, but others you completely disagree with and would vigorously complain to the person about, and anyone else who'd listen, to get change. when faced with a bad choice you join forces, but when given the option to work with someone more compatible you'd gladly jump at the chance. perfectly logical stance. to know that through analysis of action and judgement one can use criticism so that improvement can be made. but some have chilish notions that any complex relationship like that must be 'an attack' and therefore such 'disloyalty' must be counterattacked. whatever... some people cannot be reached.

best of luck to you in 'getting through' to these types people -- they only hear what they want to hear, it seems.

[Goldmund]

22. That's pretty cheap.

[xultar]

37. You're right I was wrong...It is really cuz she's DLC right? It took me a

minute but that must be it.

[buddhamama]

25. oh please

I do not dislike Hillary. However, being a strong woman myself if I disagree with her I will say so.

[xultar]

35. Is this because she's DLC. That's what I'm finally figuring out here...

That is what the real deal here. Fess up...

[buddhamama]

42. xulter dear,

i voted for Hillary when I lived in NY. :crazy:

[xultar]

52. That's kewl. I hope it was because you liked her plan and her stand on

some issues that were important to you. How did she do on your priority issues?

[buddhamama]

53. She stood up well

to my priority issues.

I've spoken with her a few times. She is a great Lady, overall.

[xultar]

54. You understand what most it seems cannot...we aren't going to find a

candidate who has the same stances on all of our issues. So we set priorities and we try to find a person who has stances that more closely matches our priority issues.

If they don't stand up we dump them.

Hillary is a great lady. I don't agree with her on some issues. But on my priority issues she is o.k.

We'd rather fight against Hillary than against the Bush Administration. That is what I'm trying to point out today.

[incapsulated]

57. xultar

This thread wasn't about an attack on Hillary. It was about an accusation that she did a turnabout on the vote yesterday. I have no idea whether it is true, but I would certainly like to know, since she is my Senator. It isn't becoming no matter what your position is on the vote yesterday if she misled anyone. You decided to make a threat to anyone who dared criticize her.

Those of us who voted for her have seen that she is a very mixed bag and hardly above criticism. I am a woman, so it has nothing to do with disliking "strong women". Voting for Hillary, especially after 8 years of the right wing attacking her, was one of the most enjoyable votes I ever cast. But then she was just another Senator and many of us have been surprised and disappointed with her less than even moderate stands on a some issues. No one, not even Hillary, is above being held accountable for what they do, especially once they have been elected to office.

[xultar]

51. I agree with you, but that'st not what I'm talking about.

I disagree with Clark on some issuesbut I still support him.

[lojasmo]

48. No, Barbara Boxer is a strong woman....

Clinton is an opportunist who is trying to don the mantle of being "electable"

Because that worked so well for Kerry.

I used to LOVE Clinton, until she became a senator and strapped on the nearly obligatory senatorial GWB kneepads.

[Tomee450]

60. Exactly!!

I no longer have a strong favorable opinion of Hillary Clinton.

[0007]

50. Hunk Hogan is winning my heart these days!

[Baclava]

18. Sounds shady

Maybe Boxer was set up as the sacrificial lamb...?

[xultar]

40. OK Y'all win. I hate Hillary too. I'm so glad you cured me of my Illness

Thanks DU!

[IStriker]

55. IF true, and I say IF, typical Clinton trick...

make sure to stick your finger up and see which way the wind is blowing.

[Pastiche423]

58. Reminds me of what she did October 10, 2002

[robbedvoter]

64. Thereafter , she lectured Code pink: "I did it for your safety"

That somehow, hurt even more. (it was in March 2003)

[robbedvoter]

59. Missed Air America, saw CBC press conference. They mentioned 5

senators joining them - obviously they didn't see the vote at the time they were talking to the press. So, not only Hillary, but 4 other senators lied.
I think it should be noted that it was kerry himself who set the tone for what went on. To quote an eloquent Clarkies "we pushed up, over his dead body"
To pull a Kerry=speak for your constituents, vote for the enemy.

All the liars are despicable - Hillary along with them. I used to admire her a lot, she'll have to do without my vote from now on.

[justiceischeap]

65. Hillary may have "indicated" she would vote yes

But as I understood it from WillPitt and other things on the net, only 1 Senator agreed to sign, the others were going to stand up and speak in favor of Boxer. Huge difference between signing a paper and supporting. I think too many took the word "stand" too literally. Those the CBC announced would stand, did.

As far as Hillary is concerned on a personal level, the Clintons both Bill and Hillary, have always been devisive. Even amongst those in the Dem party. I have found it's often a love/hate relationship with hardly any middle ground. What I found refreshing about Hillary during the EVC debate was she never once uttered she felt Bush was legitimate. That seems to have fallen on deaf ears here. All of the politicians that took a stand the other day did a good thing. It may not have been the way you wanted but it was still leaps and bounds better than 2000.

Politics isn't like the Burger King slogan, "Have it Your Way!" That's what so many find great about America, the differences. No one politician that's electable is going to be as progressive as we'd like or as conservative as they'd like. That's just life.

[DistressedAmerican]

68. Pretty speechs do not hold water with me.

Take a stand by making the vote or you are just trying to take credit for reform without taking any concrete action. Weak, spineless and self serving. But, hey this IS politics after all.

[mattclearing]

69. Like I said, this was announced at the rally JJ spoke at Thursday.

I was quite surprised when I got home and found out only Boxer voted.