Hillary Haters I have a question for you...

[xultar]

Poll question: Hillary Haters I have a question for you...

If Hillary wasn't DLC would you hate her as much as you do?

If you vote yes then I need a why reply.

[sui generis]

1. I think you're asking on the wrong board

baiting freepers is unkind because then we all gang up on them and make them cry and go running home to mommie.

[sui generis]

2. that is, the ones that don't just poll and run

come here little freepers, come out come out wherever you are!

[xultar]

4. We have a Hillary Haters thread in GD Politicts and I wanna know

why they hate Hillary so much.

I wish that all of the Democrats who are in office that DUers hate so much WALK OFF THE JOB.

[sui generis]

16. we do???? I am so naive

well I guess there are some simple minded dems who want their world to be black and white too, filled with angels and devils and nothing in between.

I want a real fucking politician, with balls, even if it is a woman.

I'm scared to hear some of these "Hillary Haters" alternative choices. Good thing they mostly just sit around and gripe on DU instead of actually getting off their asses and doing something.

[Darryl Cramer]

62. because she's not Bill

People don't like Hilary (I think hate is too strong a word) because she's extremely powerful, and not necessarily by her own merit. Furthermore, she's just not any where near as charismatic as her husband. I won't forget watching the two of them after Hilary acceptance speech to the Senate -- She walked up to the rope and began delicately shaking peoples' hands, almost as if she regretted the obligation, while Bill was bellied up to the rope grasping for people 3 and 4 rows back. He LOVES people (not just interns) and she just doesn't seem to. But hey, that's just my $.02.

[LiberalVoice]

3. I don't hate Hillary...

But it pisses me off that there is still a single person on this planet that thinks she can actually win in 2008.

[naryaquid]

5. I don't hate Hillary either...I'm not crazy about her, but I certainly

don't "hate" her..and I'm surprized - newbie that I may be - that anyone on this board would.

[0007]

9. Hillary is making some decisions and statements that is changing

tune of love for sure!

She learned real fast to be just like the rest, a real true blue politician.

[sendero]

8. Same here..

.... talk about mobilizing! She would mobilize the right wing base to a degree that would make W ashamed.

[LiberalVoice]

10. In fact...The perfect strategy for the pugs would be....

to infiltrate the dem party(as if they haven't already) and rig it so she wins the primaries for '08...The republican party would gather together with such force they would never lose control of this country ever again.

[Piperay]

77. Same here

infact I love Hillary but she wouldn't have a 'snowballs chance in hell' of getting elected to the Presidency.

[GregD]

6. Hillary has produced more obstacles to BBV election reform

than any Dem I know of.

Look into (horribly flawed) S.1986, and the impact that she had on S.2313 (she blockaded some good work and made the bill impossible to sell). She has had a horrible impact on efforts to get a paper trail bill passed.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=5074

Also, she is such a polarizing character (the Right HATES her) that we may as well not run a candicate if we think we can win with her. We won't get the crossover vote, IMO.

[IrateCitizen]

14. Don't bother the OP with facts like this, GregD

According to the OP, it's impossible to dislike Hillary Clinton for any reason other than the following:
1. She's DLC
2. She's a strong-minded, smart, independent woman

Anything else is just a cover for those two. Don't confuse the debate with facts.

[Individualist]

30. but, but, but,

aren't we all supposed to bow down to the omnipotent, not to be criticized DLC?

[GregD]

57. OP?

I must be missing something on that one. What is OP?

[moggie12]

25. Do you have additional info?

Thank you for posting the link to "VerifiedVoting". I did a search on Hillary Clinton but couldn't find any articles describing how she blockaded some good work and made the bill hard to sell. Can you fill me in on some details of what she did? Was it intentional or was it "incompetence" on her part? (She's my home state Senator -- I jest sent her an e-mail earlier today applauding her for saying she's going to co-sponsor a bill with Sen. Boxer. Oops. Too late to unsend it...)

[GregD]

56. Sure, try these links

Bo Lipari of New York (well-informed speaker if you want to have him talk to a group) wrote an analysis of the bill. I used this search to find the following links:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=lipari+clinton+s.1986

http://www.wheresthepaper.org/PADAproblems.htm
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=940


Ellen @ votersunite.org may have other materials, as might DU user RedEagle (you can also find her at www.blackboxvoting.org as she is a board member)

[moggie12]

73. Thank you very much for the info re: Hillary's bill. n/t

[Mutley]

7. i would loooove

for hillary to win in 08 but it'll never happen... if she wants any chance at all she should wait 'til at least 2016 or 2020 when (if?!?) most of the clinton bashing obsession has faded out of the minds of the right wingers...

[propagandafreegal]

11. I don't hate Hilary. I see her as a very smart very ambitious woman nm

[buddhamama]

12. disagreeing with Hillary is not the same as hating Hillary

what is with this group-think stuff?

[xultar]

15. I'm trying to find a movement that DUers will like. Apparently we can

all get behind hating Hillary. So why not make that a priority.

[buddhamama]

19. well, good luck

I won't be joining your "movement".

[msgadget]

31. No, Xulter,

that's not necessary. She may be popular but few want her to run for president, which is telling.

I'd rather get behind hating the corporate agenda sneakily enabled by dems like her. We should publish a monthly list of the votes and raise hell about them or we can compile a list of sneaky dems, give that list a name and campaign against THEM, not just one person.

[Zhade]

36. Great post. The corporatists should be targeted for replacement.

NT!

[IrateCitizen]

17. Oh yes it is, buddhamama!

There are only two reasons anybody could dislike Hillary:
1. She's DLC
2. She's a strong-minded, independent, smart woman.

Any suggestions to the contrary are just covers for the other two. At least according to the OP.

[xultar]

20. Nope, I've just decided that I agree with you whole heartedly! I think

what she's done is terrible with the bankrupcy thing. If you feel that way then I do to. I also think she is only in this for her career and for getting votes from the wall street elites.

So you wanna start a movement against her. I'm ready. Just tell me what you want me to do. Want me to come up with a logo? I can.
You have any other candidates in mind we need to start pluging and getting them some $$$$. Let me know I can get some movement on that issue as well.

I never really liked her either honestly, other than the fact she was a woman.

[IrateCitizen]

21. Isn't there a hole under a rock somewhere that needs filled? (nt)

[xultar]

22. I just came out to sun myself. You mean I gotta go back in? AWW dad!

I don't wanna go. :cry:

[IrateCitizen]

26. Nobody said you had to. You can continue to hang out here...

... and make a fool of yourself for all to see, if that's really your goal.

If it is, you're succeeding famously at it.

[xultar]

32. Thanks A BUNCHES! Where should I send your flowers? I orderd u some

:pals:

[Sterling]

69. I was tomb stoned for posting that we should have gone to her local office.

and protested her IWR vote. I will never forgive her for that. That is why I feel betrayed by her after defending her to all the RW droolers for 8 years and voting for her in 2k she failed to represent me when I needed her.

[buddhamama]

34. xulter didn't respond to my post

in another thread where i stated i voted for Hillary.

doesn't mesh with her group-think 'opinion' so it is ignored.

[xultar]

37. Nope I'm sorry I've been in this thread. I wasn't ignoring you baby..

I was just busy over here. I'll go over there and respond to your post.

I'll be right back...

[xultar]

40. OK, I'm back. n/t

[IStriker]

38. How about 3. She's likely to get the nomination and then...

take us down in flames (by a far wider margin than Gore or Kerry) for the 3rd straight election

[buddhamama]

49. a very real possibilty

i would not support her for President.

[xultar]

50. A loss is a loss. So why is a loss by Gore and Kerry even better?

Let's be for real...I am not talking about the whole presidential thing. Just her Senate seat.

What ever you believe about Gore and Kerry they both conceded.

Who do you want for president in 08?

[IStriker]

51. We're talking about 2 different things...

It's not my problem if she has a Senate seat for life. I don't live in NY so I don't care who they send to the senate (as long as it's a "D.")

I don't know who I want to get the nomination in '08 because I don't know who is running, but I am hoping and will work for someone who is NOT DLC.

[xultar]

54. OK I agree where did we split? n/t

[Sterling]

70. Then we should run Dennis K.

He really is the best man. We just know we would lose more than likely. I do agree it is better to run the best person fro the job period. It is better to lose running on what you know is right than to win on what you know is wrong.

[itzamirakul]

13. I don't hate Hillary

I am just totally disgusted with her and with Charles Schumer as well.

Both are my Senators and for the life of me I cannot see one valuable thing that either of them has done. They are seat-warmers - that's all.

Granted, I am an opponent of the DLC, but I would have continued to support Hillary until her lack of action yesterday. Now, she can expect the same lack of action from me when it is time for her re-election in 2006.

[xultar]

18. Well shit, let's dump them both. Who would you like to run in their place

let's get them some $$$$$ and campaign for them.
I'm for it. Apparently here @ DU we are more productive when we are against someone than if we are for them.

[ldf]

24. you just don't get it, do you?

some of us have decided that the prevailing attitude of the democratic leadership that:

You will vote for us because you have nothing better to vote for, and you will just have to deal with it!

no longer flies.

sorry, i'm not some cheap whore to be used and then tossed aside.

:mad:

[xultar]

33. Nope I do get it. I agree. I think we should mount campaigns against

them. Someone even posted that we shouldn't vote @ all in 2006.

[Buck_Fush]

84. Oh, that'l help! What a dumb idea. Prizewinning dumb. n/t

[itzamirakul]

39. Well, since you are in such a sarcastic mood today...

IMO, having Clinton and Schumer sitting in the senate makes no more difference than having two Republicans sitting there. Neither of them is doing a damned thing to help Democrats so what the hell difference does it make?

You know, I've been a straight-ticket voting Democrat for over 40 years now up until this year. I simply WILL NOT pull the lever for just ANYBODY just because they have the label Democrat after their name.

Now, YOU can do what ever the hell you choose.

Your attitude seems to be that we should all march lockstep and not criticize or say anything negative about any of our elected officials. You are constantly whining about that being non-productive. You are so protective of the DLC that I suspect that you are on their payroll. In fact, I think your arguments that PRETEND to be trying to keep people together are suspect. You seem to want to argue constantly when others on this board do not support ALL Democrats. Are you even CAPABLE of seeing and understanding another opinion than your own?

You asked people to take the poll and then give their reason(s) for feeling as they do and then as usual, you try to pick a fight if the person does not agree with you. Yet you try to play the role of the great uniter of Democrats.

I think I'd better tell you - you have picked the wrong person to fight with when you choose me. I said nothing in my post that warranted such a nasty, snarky comment from you.

[xultar]

42. Where was I nasty & snarky

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xultar]

48. OK n/t

[AntiCoup2K4]

23. Not really a fair question

If she wasn't DLC, but still had despicable appeasement positions, then yes. If she was DLC, and did NOT appease Bush/PNAC, then that would be different. But then how many DLC members DO oppose these neocons anymore?

[IrateCitizen]

29. It's not supposed to be a fair question.

The OP is only interested in engaging in extreme hyperbole, "stirring the shitstorm", as it were.

[jswordy]

27. Nothing wrong with Hillary, but she can't win a...

...presidential race. Has to do with the country not wanting to elect a woman, and also with the fact she is a hot button for the right who will drive out their voters in droves to the polls. Sorry. Done deal.

[xultar]

47. I agree and the same thing with a black person, but people would rather

elect an immigrant man before we have our first black person or woman president.

[outraged2]

28. its not hate exactly

I just think she is a terribly polarizing person, I don't think we need anymore of that.

[xultar]

46. Is she polarizing or are we polarizing. What has she done to make you

think she is polarizing?

[outraged2]

53. well

someone up the thread said it better than I.... The Reps and their machine will have a field day with her. She triggers a totally irrational/emotional and almost automatic negative response from many people (even apolitical people).

[xultar]

67. Let's say I'm really hot lookin---cuz I am...IF you act like an ass is it

my fault or your fault?

[outraged2]

72. fault isn't relevant

Of course in your example I would be at fault, but the situation is a bit different. Yes, the people who flip out about Hillary are at 'fault', but that does not change the fact that they are flipping out and being irrational and played by the right wing shills. My point about Hillary is that the Dems CAN and SHOULD do better than to leave themselves open to that sort of nonsense. Dems will have a hard time with any candidate or leader, but HIllary has a whole freight car of baggage already, starting with the name Clinton. The Dems have other, and I believe better, options available to them than her is all I am trying to say.

[Zhade]

35. I don't "hate" Senator Clinton, she just doesn't represent my values.

She's in no way a progressive, especially with regards to economics issues, and her past involvement with Wal-Mart really bothers me.

No one who cares a whit about workers' rights here and abroad could ever sit on the board of a company that violates those rights worldwide the way Wal-Mart does.

There's more, but my overall point is that I don't hate Hillary, I just want a real liberal/progressive to take her place. Hating her would be silly, since I don't even know the woman.

[xultar]

45. Who would you vote for to replace her? n/t

[Zhade]

52. Well, I'm in Los Angeles, so I couldn't.

But I'd trust some of my progressive brothers and sisters in New York to find a suitable candidate.

[hedgehog]

82. I'm from New York

and I'm ticked off that Hillary did her fund raising for the Senate seat in LA.As far as I know, she was a shoe-in for the seat. That money should have gone to some tight races where it could have made a difference.

[robbedvoter]

41. I voted for her, used to admire her greatly. I have no DLC fixation.

Lately I protested several times in front of her office - mostly against the war . She told protesters that she voted to protect us....
Things are not any better by her pulling a kerry yesterday (i. e : speaking for us and voting for W)
So, she gets no more votes out of me. Hatred I save for the actual fascists.

[xultar]

44. I like her, I disagree with her on some issues. I also don't have a DLC

fixation.
And, ditto...
I'd rather fight against the enemy than against my party.

[kodi]

55. and i have an answer for you. yes, she is a liar and rank opportunist

but i guess you think that since she is on "our" side that forgives her.

if elizabeth dole had done the things clinton has you would be calling for her head on a pike.

[JNelson6563]

58. I don't hate Hillary

but I am adamantly against the idea of her as our candidate in 08. The day I watched her on the Senate floor, backing up PNAC's invasion of Iraq I felt sick. Literally. I thought of all the years so many of us had defended her and stood by her and watched her fold like a house of cards. I thought "never again" and I meant it.

Do I hate her? No. Did I lose buckets of respect for her? You bet. I suspect anyone who feels as I do may be mistaken as "Hillary haterz".

Julie

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Not hate. More like contempt and disgust.

Just another cheap DLC(R) hack doing whatever she thinks will keep her sorry butt in her senate seat.

[Rambis]

60. other than being unelectable I have no problem with her

No chance in hell! "merica" is not ready for a woman president. I am but I heard to many people this election not wanting to vote for Kerry because of "that woman" his wife. This was mostly from female voters too. Go figure:(

[bumblebee1]

74. Both women are intimidating to other women

Hillary and Teresa are very smart people who feel they can do things to make changes in the world. When you are as intelligent ana either woman, you can literally write your own ticket out of town. Both women have no qualms with having their opinions heard. Unfortunately, it comes down to how the word "lady" is defined. Quiet, self-effacing, Stepford wife like Laura Bush)- three words I would not use to describe either Hillary or Teresa. Unfortunately, women are harder on other women than men are. Women are easily divided and conquered. As for cooking, the only thing I want to see either woman baking is the dead matter between the ears of the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, just to name a few RW nutjobs.

I had a discussion on this topic with my brother-in-law after this election. He made the comment that Hillary Clinton will probably be elected President in 2008. I told him that you'll have a better chance seeing the first black President elected in this country than the first woman President. Americans would not have the balls to elect a woman President.

[zann725]

75. I love strong Women. I know Hilary's strong, but is she really a ???

Looks and talks like a robot. So cooly calculating.

On the other hand, I think Teresa's great! The stronger the better there! And nothing about Teresa's not firmly planted where she wants it to be! 'Loose cannon,' no way! Refreshingly opinionated, yeah!

[IndianaGreen]

61. Better Hillary than the quitter in the swift boat!

If the choice came down between Hillary and Kerry (and there were no third party candidates)... well, it's not like having to choose between Netayahu and Sharon. Hillary it is!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. I Don't Hate HRC...

I try not to hate anybody even Bush*....


Hate is corrosive.... It destroys the container...



I like Hillary and Bill, bought their books, contributed to their campaigns, have an autographed picture of Bill in my foyer...

I just can not conceive of any scenario where she can win the presidency...

[Lancey_Howard]

64. If the thought of Kerry made a world-record 61 million people

....go to the polls and vote for Bush, I can hardly imagine how many Republican votes a Hillary candidacy would scare up. A biilion?

[robbedvoter]

66. Nice try. Wasn't the thought of Kerry. Was Diebold, media, prejudice

and stupidity driving much less than that to the polls for fascism. pathetic nonetheless, I give you that (although I sense some pride in your post)

[Clark2008]

65. I don't hate her. I like her.

But I don't think she can win a national election, with or without Republican election fraud.

Therefore, I didn't vote in this.

[PhuLoi]

68. "Friends of India" supporting the outsourcing of jobs.

She doesn't give a damn about the country or those of us who work for a living.

[formernaderite]

71. I don't hate anyone....

...but I happen to dislike her. She's too political and not even charsimatic enough to pull it off. She got where she is because her husband was the Pres. I pretty much hate nepotism, and see her unapposed primary as a gift for standing by Bill. There are many more women deserving of the presidency and her senate seat. I recall Nita Lowry was supposed to run for that seat.

[orpupilofnature57]

76. I love Hillary, chutzpah and forgiveness. a liberal lady

[TroglodyteScholar]

78. I don't like her because...

...I get the sense that she is primarily motivated by the promise of political power, not by any strong convictions or perceived responsibility to her supporters.

Also, despite the fact that the right hates her, she's a wingnut enabler -- a real representative of the broad effort to move the Democratic party rightward. That may have been okay a few years ago, but I think I've had enough of those Dems.

[lojasmo]

79. I don't hate her, but I voted yes because of....

Her votes on

IWR

PATRIOT act

NCLB

[Zynx]

80. Yes.

The reason is that she is a total sell-out on Iraq.

[hedgehog]

81. I don't "hate" her, it's just that I have no reason to like her

The alternative minimum tax means that middle class (2 income) New Yorkers lose their state income tax deduction and she hasn't said a word about it. Even worse, Bush is talking about eliminating that deduction for all New Yorkers and I haven't heard one peep from Hillary. She's got a lot of visibility but she hasn't used it to talk about tirture or Iraq or immigration rights or labor law etc etc etc. What's worse is that by waltzing in to take the Senate seat, she's added to the shambles of the NYS Democratic Party. I remember Bobby, and Hillary ain't no Bobby.

[Buck_Fush]

83. what a biased poll, which assumes I hate Hillary and only asks how much!

Is you crazy Mon? I don't hate Hillary, I adore her. Who else was willing the call the "great conspiracy" by name while every other Dem hid their head up their ass? Who refused to allow Oreilly and Sean Hannity to mess with their marriage? Who stood up to a sent whore by refusing to notice her much? Hillary raised a real daughter, somebody with conscience, not a drunk like the Shrub Twins, but somebody who actually cares what's going on even if it isn't a party or a shopping frenzy. Hillary put up with character assasination, the assasination of her husband's character, and all with grace and aplomb. She has no personal need of the senate, and I feel sure it would be much easier for her to lie on the beach in St Maartin, but instead, she is in the senate trying to save your ungrateful ass from the christofascist pigs. Say thank you.