Conyers: Const. Amndmnt. Allowing Presidency w/ 20 yrs. US Citizenship

[Helga Scow Stern]

Is it just me or is this slightly alarming since it seeks to allow foreign born with 20 years citizenship to seek the presidency and the Gropinator was naturalized in 1983?

PRESS RELEASE
Congressman John Conyers, Jr.
Fourteenth District, Michigan
Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary
Dean, Congressional Black Caucus

Immediate Release
January 4, 2005
CONYERS INTRODUCES CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO PERMIT
FOREIGN BORN CITIZENS TO SEEK THE PRESIDENCY
Congressman John Conyers, Jr., issued the following statement regarding his plans to introduce a constitutional amendment allowing foreign born citizens to be eligible for the presidency:
“Today, on the very first day Congress convenes for the 109th session, I will introduce a Constitutional Amendment allowing foreign born persons who have been citizens of the United States for at least 20 years to be eligible for the presidency or vice presidency.
snip---

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/foreignbornintropr1405.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. This may be, just as the draft, a way to pre empt the GOP

Of cousre they would never allow a radical democrat to have that feather and I hope he is not miscalculating.

OTOH... this means I can run in 17 years for President, if it passes... so time to start raising funds, I guess.

;-)

(Oh and I am assuming state ratification in time for me to run)

[Lenape85]

3. I'm for allowing foreign born citizens to seek the presidency.

I support it on principle; and I refuse to just not allow it to happen because of the Gropenfuhrer.

On edit, this was my 666th post

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I go back to the Founding Fathers

their reason was to prevent an agent from a foreign power taking over the United States. Thought their fear was far more justified during the convention that led to the Constitution of 1789, I still think that is a valid concern.

Now don't get me wrong, most Naturalized citizens I know off would not comit treason in such a way, and being native born does not prevent you from such... (Yes George we are talking of you), but that is why I am really torn on the issue. Never mind I would benefit and have the posibility of actually one day growing up to be President...

[trogdor]

56. My alternative bill

Allow citizens who have been naturalized prior to having reached ten years of age.

[Helga Scow Stern]

16. So it's pre-emptive? Or is it some deal? I know Conyers has done a lot

with immigration, etc., so maybe this is a way to continue the good fight there.

[Clark2008]

38. You know something... you may be right here

Conyers - that conspiratorial nut - cannot be allowed to introduce a bill like that! It's un-American! (/sarcasm)

Charlie Rangel did this too when he introduced that draft bill. Cut it off at the pass.

[leesa]

41. But he didn't, did he? Rangel's bill was just another thing that made

the draft a Democrat idea. I don't trust any of these people...with the exception of a handful like DK and Waxman.

[radio4progressives]

64. i think that was a strategical play too. Just like Rengal's proposal for

the reinstatement of the draft.


purely political. no real notion that such a thing will be passed.

the beauty of it is that we pre-empt the GOP, and the righties go ape shite over it, find every thing under the sun wrong with such a notion, thereby killing it in committee or on the floor and then the fuel for that distraction is permenantely defused. there's probably tactical advantage to make such a proposals and i hope they have a bunch more, to keep the GOP dizzy for a while.

[genius]

2. This would be BAD

Though I think Dennis will also support it. I don't want Arnold or Murdock to be President.

[genius]

4. How about allowing it after 3 months residency.

That way we can have Gorbechev, Zapatero, Chavez, etc if they decide to move here.

[IndianaGreen]

6. Governor Jennifer Granholm, Teresa Heinz, Hadassah Lieberman

Powerful women that are better suited for political office than their spouses, all of them foreign born.

Let's get on with the 21st century and stop cowering under the restraints of men long dead that had no faith in democracy and no guts when it came to slavery.

As to Arnold... he will never win the GOP nomination, and neither will Rudi. Pro-choice Republicans have no future in the party of holy fetuses.

[naryaquid]

8. ..Don't bet on it...Gropenator could "change his views" like * did..

[IndianaGreen]

13. It doesn't change the fact that Conyers proposal has merit on its own

and that we should never do something, or fail to do something, just because we are afraid about what the other side is going to do.

America is lagging behind Canada and Western Europe in many things, and this is one of them.

To put it in perspective, should we limit the rights and privileges of American citizens just because they were foreign born, or because they love someone of the same sex? My answer is a resounding NO to both questions!

[naryaquid]

18. maybe...but I don't think it's going to be the next burning issue...

...UNLESS someone powerfull, like Ahnold or Murdoch is behind it

[zann725]

19. Gropenator already did. Sunday's LAT front page:

"Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger plans to call a special election....Schwarznegger said he wanted voters to decide QUICKLY on his government reforms, meaning a FALL elction.
.....
"Social conservatives say they already collected more than a third of signatures needed for an initiative requiring parents to be notified when their teenage daughter seeks an abortion. Another initiative would ban driver's licenses and college tuition grants to illegal immigrnats."

(And didn't he just "re-district" California? Oh this man's moving fast. And we're NOT concerned that he's foreign-born Austrian whose father worked for the SS?)

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. Why be concerned.

about such a menial fact? :eyes:

And we're NOT concerned that he's foreign-born Austrian whose father worked for the SS?)

It's curious that this has become an issue when the fascist Bush family is in power. They have Nazi connections also and look at what they have done to our country....all by design.

This is a bad idea.

[IndianaGreen]

30. The repukes used the same blood libel against Gen. Shalikashvili

And we're NOT concerned that he's foreign-born Austrian whose father worked for the SS?

Children are not responsible for their parents's actions. This bullshit charge that so-and-so had a so-and-so father was used by Republicans and their AIPAC allies to smear Cynthia McKinney on account of her father. It was also used by the Republicans to attack President Clinton's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General John Shalikashvili, because his father had been a Nazi war criminal.

I won't support such logic from the Republicans, and I certainly will not do so when it comes from the Democrats. If you want to attack someone, you better focus on the person's record, not on what a parent or sibling has done.

[leesa]

42. Except that he supported his father's work. Just like the Bush's honor

their relative who worked for the Nazis AFTER the war started. There is a difference.

[pinto]

59. Accuracy check: here's the link to Sunday LAT's piece on Arnold.

While I disagree with the Governor I feel it's important to be accurate in presenting his position. Thanks.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-state9jan09,1,1073847.story?coll=la-headlines-california

[GreenPartyVoter]

60. Arianna Huffington too

[naryaquid]

7. I'm against it...too scary now, especially with Murdoch and Gropenator...

[aquart]

9. NEVER.

No one born with another allegiance must ever be President. The Founding Fathers understood this very well.

[IndianaGreen]

15. The Founding Fathers gave us the Electoral College, kept slavery and...

they also denied basic rights to women. I wouldn't use them as icons of democracy and freedom!

[zann725]

21. But we KNOW which FOREIGN-BORN candidate the legislation refers to...

Ahhnald.

A foreign-born Austrian, whose father worked for SS. Let's wake up... before it's too late!

And why would Conyer's introduce this legislation TWO days before he contested the Ohio vote? Was this a "trade-off" for the opportunity to present his case (which he knew he'd lose)? I hear these kind of deals are made all the time, but from CONYERS??

And WHAT do you think an Austrian-born's perspective is on voting rights for Blacks? And he's anti-Labor...he almost entirely cut out Workers Comp in CA, and just proposed that Lunch Breaks NOT be mandatory?!! And he reversed over-time pay established under Gray Davis.

I've lived in CA for 20 years, but am considering moving due to Ahnnnald's progressively repressive legislation.

[aquart]

24. They may intend the Austrian, but the largest minority is Hispanic.

Or Reverend Moon could set up one of his sons.

Or Rupert Murdoch could run. He controls the media and he bought his citizenship over 20 years ago.

I think of this as the Rupert Murdoch amendment.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Some people think that gays should not have the same rights as heteros

this is the same principle in here: Should all American citizens be entitled to the same rights and priviliges regardless of whether they were born in the USA or naturalized citizens? The answer is quite simple to me: Yes!

I won't stampede into another Nader-style paranoia being applied to Arnold, or to Arianna Huffington, who would also benefit from such a Constitutional amendment. BTW, this idea has been around since the days of Nixon!

All American citizens should be entitled to the same rights and privileges of citizenship, whether they are foreign born, or GLBT, or don't believe in G_d, etc. This is a bedrock principle that should never be undermined by partisan paranoia!

[Hippo_Tron]

46. The democratic governor of Michigan is also foreign born

She would arguably be a great presidential candidate.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Do you share our Founding Fathers' views on elections, women, and slavery?

You should read the original Constitution, it is quite a shocker to read the document as it was prior to the adoption of the post-Civil War Amendments (13th, 14th, and 15th) and the 19th Amendment which gave women the right to vote.

Our Founding Fathers did not want the people to vote for its Senators, preferring to have the State legislators do that (this was changed in 1913 by the 17th Amendment.

We still have the archaic and undemocratic Electoral College. Are you a supporter of that system?

[KittyWampus]

32. You Can Argue Sensibly For One Aspect And Against Another.

and the judgement behind the system regarding who can and cannot run for President is still sound.

[IndianaGreen]

33. I will choose equality under the law

which means that all American citizens should be treated the same, and enjoy the same rights and privileges. Let's face it, our Founding Fathers were not a bastion of freedom or democracy. At least they were smart enough to allow for amending the constitution, which is why so many of their wrong ideas have been changed over our history.

How about that great Electoral College? Who wants to join me in driving a wooden stake through its heart?

[Hippo_Tron]

47. Agreed here, let's stick with principle and defeat gropinator politically

The notion that we won't support legitimate reform because it could lead to a Republican getting elected is ridiculous.

On the electoral college, I agree that it should go as soon as we pass some serious voting reform legislation, possibly in the form of constitutional ammendments. The only problem with abolishing the EC, is that diebold machines could change the numbers by just the slightest bit all around the country resulting in a Republican win and fraud that would be un-noticeable.

I think the best solution is that all elections should be run by some sort of federal elections board like the FEC, but there should be an even amount of Democrats and Republicans and they should all be appointed by some body respresenting their respective parties, perhaps their congressional caucuses. This board should appoint Democratic and Republican inspectors to oversee elections at EVERY polling place accross the country.

As far as voting machines go, I think that the best solution is electronic machine that doesn't count votes electronically, but prints your ballot. Simply, you will select your choices on the machine and then prints out a paper ballot, which you will walk outside of the voting booth and place in the ballot box. If after reviewing your ballot, you feel that it is incorrect, you should be able to speak to an election official who can help you make the necessary changes.

As far as the small states go, well they have two Senators that they get much more access to as compared to somebody who lives in California, Texas, or New York.

[Orangepeel]

51. but people seem to be using the "argument" that the restriction is good

BECAUSE the founding fathers supported it (e.g., "the founding fathers understood this very well"). IG's response is that just because the founding fathers supported something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Whether or not the restriction is or is not a good idea is debatable. However, the debate needs to be based on principle (i.e., can naturalized citizens be discriminated against on the basis of national security or not?) rather than on whether or not the founding fathers supported it.

It also shouldn't be based on support or opposition to specific individuals.

[fujiyama]

57. So anyone born in another country has another allegiance?

So are you saying that naturalized citizens should not be given security clearances?

Now, I personally don't think it is worth changing the constitution for this purpose and I have no interest in seeing Arnold being president, but there are many that weren't born here with as much or more loyalty to this country than any brain dead inbred redneck.

[Liberty Belle]

10. Ack! Not from Conyers...I trusted him.

This is a very bad idea. We could get the Nazi-loving, education-slashing Gropinator as Prez, for starters.

Also, for those so worried about terrorism, wouldn't this make it easy for Al Qaeda or some other group to infiltrate the US with a "sleeper" who waits 20 years, then runs for the White House?

That's the argument we must make to "reframe" this debate. If you're afraid of terrorism, you can't support this measure.

[NJCher]

11. other allegiance

No one born with another allegiance must ever be President. The Founding Fathers understood this very well.

I agree but there are other ways to accomplish this: look at bush. His allegiance is to corporations and many of them have no base in America and even if they did, it doesn't mean they care about our country or its citizens.


Cher

[evolvenow]

12. Arnie is already chopping CA into bite-size pieces. Nuclear winter, was

the ending of his last film.

On principle it sounds good, but reality is that the boys with the Evil eye, have been a'courting the Grope-a-nator for this trajectory.

No more presidents that have abuse records and serious issues with their Fathers. Dangerous, as no end to proving their worth, and are dying for attention. (Remember, he is an Actor.)

That is...When we actually get to elect our President...

P.s. IMHO, I think his election was questionable, and a number of the props that passed, very strange. I am concerned.:o

[Helga Scow Stern]

14. I agree. His election was questionable, and so were some of the props.

That "switch" happened overnight to some, didn't it?

[evolvenow]

17. Yep, very frightening, the Recall, Arnie Install and the DNA prop Passed?

Yikes!!:scared:

And don't forget 2 imp. points.

1. When the Terminator was a young man, he had a plan to marry into the Kennedy family.

2. Wasn't the Bankrupting of CA Energy convenient?

I say we get Barbara Boxer for President!! She has been fighting for justice her entire career.

[zann725]

65. Read the Sunday L.A. Times...he's holding a "special election"

this coming Fall to vote on his "propositions" again.

I didn't realize "special elections" for issues ONLY were allowed? He probably afraid the Dems will push for some sort of Election oversight in 2006 or 08...which he hopes to avoid if he pushes his agenda through in a few months.

[zann725]

22. I agree with your "P.S." But also see Sunday LAT front page!

Ahnnald's moving fast!

[unblock]

20. amending the constitution to let a particular person become prez

is a very, very bad idea.

yes, yes, i know. ahnold wouldn't be the only one to become eligible. so would my mother, who was smuggled out from under the nazis. she's been living in this country since she was three.

but really, it's all about ahnold.

if it isn't about ahnold, then add a phase-in clause that says "this amendment shall apply only to those born after passage of this amendment."

so if it's a good idea in theory, it would still have support, but it couldn't be used to apply to ahnold.

try that. then see how interest in the amendment suddenly evaporates.

[divineorder]

25. Great Idea

That way, nobody who is currently in politics could use it.

Further clauses, all persons to which this applies must have immigrated to the United States before their fifth birthday, have been naturalized on the 18th birthday or sooner, cannot be eligible for any foreign title of nobility, decended from any foreign diplomatic personnel, military officer or government worker whose service was less than 35 years previously, and must formally renounce all allegiances to another power before taking any federal job or office. Furthermore, they must have been resident 28 years within the United States or its posessions continually, have completed at least secondary education within the United States.

[unblock]

28. those are other good ideas.

when you think about it, why not just leave the constitution as it is???

[divineorder]

37. True.

For this really is an "Arnold" amendment. Why? How many first-generation immigrants who are not royalty or better are in a position to run for president? Unless you came here as a baby-an adopted baby to someone who has the resources, the time you have to take to be acculturated, let alone make reasonable contacts, takes you way past the window of opportunity to run for President anyway. "A Stranger in a Strange Land" has a lot of hurdles to cross just trying to make ends meet or fit in socially to do too much politically. And what if the concepts they were taught before they arrived are inimical to American notions of fairness, equality, or Democracy? You could have a system where Pinochet's grandson could actually come here and run for President without a lifelong allegiance to America or democratic concepts. You could have a Saudi prince make a bid. What about some of the others who would gladly give up a son in the pursuit of the ultimate world political prize? A native born American has a lifetime of immersion into those concepts, and to rise high enough politically, must at least verbalize those concepts. Not to mention having to be really familiar with American culture to communicate effectively with the citizens and have at least a sense of "we are all in it together".

But it won't be framed that way. We'll be treated to heart-rending pictures of bright Asian adoptees who can't run for President. Never mind that these adoptees have the additional burdens of both race and gender and often poverty as well. Never mind that such an Amendment won't enfranchise a lot of Hispanics either, because citizenship can sometimes be cloudy, and backers few. Demos will be told that they are somehow "anti-immigrant" for resisting this sort of thing.

Call it for what it is-the Arnold Amendment. I doubt that there are many first-generation immigrants who even want to be President at all, taking on the burden when they are not sure how welcome they are or how adept they are in their adopted land. Better the kids run who at least could start early and who have no immigration issues to worry about, also being born here.

[Pepperbelly]

27. Do not go off on a name-calling rant about Conyers.

He is a true patriot, a populist, and one of the few who stand tall for the people.

[Cheswick2.0]

34. WHY? Are there no greater inequities to fix first?

Do fellons have the right to vote once they have paid their debt to society? Did we have our first female president yet? Everyone has healthcare?

DID WE RADIFY THE ERA?

WTF is this about?

[Buns_of_Fire]

35. The Arnold Amendment -- some general facts

If passed by both houses of Congress, Arnold could well take advantage of it, unless specifically grandfathered-out or omitted in some other way:

On average, it seems to take roughly 18 months to two years to get a "standard" amendment ratified (ref: http://www.usconstitution.net/constamrat.html#BoR ). When averaging this stuff out I (1) counted Amendments 1-10 as one Amendment (since they were ratified simultaneously); (2) dropped the 26th Amendment (which set the voting age to 18, and was ratified in 100 days -- the shortest amount of time); and (3) dropped the 27th Amendment (allowing for congressional pay increases, ratified in 74003 days -- the longest amount of time).

While, of course, the ERA has been in the wings since it was passed by Congress in 1972 and, as noted, STILL hasn't been ratified (ref: http://www.now.org/issues/economic/cea/history.html ).

So anyway, if they fast-track this, there's a distinct possibility it could be ratified by 2008.

Now, Arnold will be 58 this coming July 30 (see http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/actors/arnold-schwarzenegger/ ) -- which means in 2008, he'd be 61 (well within the acceptable age range).

IMNSHO, though, if they try to piggyback this with a Straight-Marriage-Only Amendment, a Kill-All-The-Gays Amendment, an amendment to require that "under boosh" be added to the Pledge of Allegiance, and an amendment to officially rename the United States of America to Booshland, they'll be what might be termed "pissing in the soup." More genteely, they'd be overreaching -- which fits right in with their character.

[meow2u3]

36. 20 years citizenship isn't enough

I think a person should have had to be a U.S. citizen since the age of 18, and to have been a resident of our country before the age of 12, as well. This allows for foreign-born US citizens who were raised in the States, and who were too young to know the culture and politics of the old country, to become president.

[Vickers]

39. My wife is foreign-born, still a foreign citizen, and yet

she has STILL been a more positive influence in this country than that dumbshit President of ours.

Go figure.

[Eloriel]

40. This PROVES to me that Conyers, for all his investigation of voting

STILL doesen't get it about vote fraud. An amendment like this will GIVE the '08 presidency to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Period, end of discussion. We'll also lose CA in the process at other important parts of the ballot (Senator, Congress).

[evolvenow]

54. So True! Arnie Quote "I was dreaming about being some dictator ...

Arnold Schwarzenegger

A name to be reckoned with
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/actors/arnold-schwarzenegger/
(snip)
Anyway, speaking of sudden and unwarranted rises to power.... Arnold started visiting the White House as something other than a highly noticed movie star when he signed on as chairman of the President's Council of Physical Fitness in the 1990 Bush White House. This august body, which had been first chaired by Richard M. Nixon in 1956, turned out to be a nice way for Arnie to spend an awful lot of time in the corridors of power. Between urging America's astoundingly fat children to do the occasional push-up, he must have smelled those plants in the Rose Garden a bit too much, because here and there in the press were mentions by him about interest in politics.

A 1990 profile in U.S. News and World Report noted Arnold's intensity as Locker Room Czar, and predicted that he would someday run for office. After noting a longstanding desire for political clout ("My relationship to power and authority is that I'm all for it."), the article quotes the actor as saying:


"People need somebody to watch over them. . . . Ninety-five percent of the people in the world need to be told what to do and how to behave."



(snip)
1974 "At that point, I didn't think about money. I thought about the fame, about just being the greatest. I was dreaming about being some dictator of a country or some savior like Jesus. Just to be recognized." Rolling Stone
1975 When author and producer George Butler asked who he admired most, Schwarzenegger replied, "I admired Hitler, for instance, because he came from being a little man with almost no formal education up to power. And I admire him for being such a good public speaker." Butler also makes claims the actor "frequently clicked his heels and pretended to be an S.S. officer" and that he enjoyed playing "Nazi marching songs from long-playing records from his collection at home." New York Times.

------
IMHO- We had better be damn sure to solve the voting machine debacle, and learn how to effectively tell the country the TRUTH, just in case, this things passes.

Otherwise, it will just be a matter of time until the armbands are being handed out.

[kypper]

43. Just because a foreign citizen CAN run...

Doesn't mean they will. This would benefit the democratic party as much as the republicans, albeit Arnold is the obviously scary Republican front runner at this point.

Can you imagine a Canadian in the white house, though? :D

[Vidar]

44. Seems like a horrible idea, but I will say nothing ill of Conyers.

[DaveinMD]

45. don't fear Arnold

I'd love for Jennifer Granholm to be on a Democratic ticket one day.

[latteromden]

48. DON'T call it the "Arnold Amendment." Connect it with Granholm - people

have mentioned her here already - the Canadian governor of Michigan. Bring it to our side; show them that we can have strong foreign born candidates, too, and convince them that it would benefit the Democrats more than the Republicans.

[CatholicEdHead]

55. Still don't like it

Not so much for Granholm/Arnold, but for future abuses down the road. If it was written just for Granholm and/or Arnold, that would be one thing. I would not support it becuase of who knows who could be elected.

Doubtful this would get ratified by any of the GOP stronghold states in the intermountain west, plains, and southeast.

[leesa]

49. Why is this necessary?? Aren't there enough potential Americans

who could become Prez?

[w4rma]

50. It's not. In fact it would create a huge security hole. (nt)

[Orangepeel]

52. naturalized citizens ARE Americans (n/t)

[IStriker]

63. Yes they are, but they can be deported for crimes committed unlike...

Americans born here. There is still some difference under the law in a citizen born here and a naturalized one.

[kamqute]

53. Come on, people!

I know it's horrifying to have the prospect of having Arnold in the white house, but you know in your heart that this is just a fair thing to do. Besides, there are plenty of people just as bad as he is.

[patricia92243]

58. The good news is that Arnold would save the GOP from the EXTREME right.

Therefore, our whole country, because it appears that the Republicans will be in power for the foreseeable future.

The bad news is this opens the door for people who deep in their heart still have a loyalty for their "home" country - not the USA.

[IStriker]

61. VERY BAD IDEA. Thankfully it's hard to amend the constitution...

and this is not likely to get anywhere beyond Conyers introducing it unless he joins up with some Repukes who want to allow Ah-nald to run. I can't see any reason why we would ever amend the constitution to allow someone foreign born to be president. We certainly have enough citizens who want to be president who are born here. Not only is it not neccessary, it's a rotten idea.

[robcon]

62. It's about time that this is corrected.

I'm not scared of Arnold. He will never bee nominated: pro-choice, pro-gay... not a chance.

This corrects a flaw in the constitution in 1789 when a large part of English-born Americans were considered to be Tories.

[NVMojo]

66. hope he's not doing this for Schwarzenegger ....

[NVMojo]

67. hope he's not doing this for Schwarzenegger ....

[grasswire]

68. what about this caveat

Add to Conyers' suggestion the proviso that no one be allowed to assume the presidency without obtaining a security clearance.