So, what do we make of Kerry as a Senator who won't stand with Boxer

[mistertrickster]

to dispute election results?

To me, it smacks of more "chess playing" when he ought to stop strategizing and just stand up for something.

[Misunderestimator]

1. Oh yippee... let's bash Kerry some more.... ONLY ONE SENATOR

was needed.... stop BASHING KERRY!!! Damn.

[mistertrickster]

16. I just remembered what one of Kerry's handlers posted on DU--that

he was "playing chess, while some of us were playing checkers."

Uhhmm . . . isn't that sort of the whole problem with Kerry? He always seems to be "playing chess."

Bush Co isn't playing chess. They're playing smash the table with a sledgehammer.

I don't think calling a dem out when he doesn't act as "bashing." I call it drawing conclusion based on his lack of action.

If we have to toe the "party line" around here that dems can never do wrong, this website is going to be a lot less interesting and less influential.

That's what they do on FRep, btw. No Bush criticism allowed. Ever.

[Warpy]

34. The problem with playing chess

against a partner who is playing checkers is that while you're deliberating your next move, you discover he's jumped over every piece you have on the board and won the game.

Kerry was a good guy back in the 70s, willing to stand up against his own class and a lot of very powerful people for what he believed in. I don't know what happened to him, but I imagine "DLC" might be part of it.

[blm]

61. So, YOUR idea was take the focus OFF the voting problems and put it ON

Kerry. And what would the GOP controlled media do with that scenario?

Kerry is doing it the only wsy anyone could to get a real investigation into the electoral process and accomplish the important task of making the entire system transparent.

Describe for us what would have happened had Kerry chosen to act the way you preferred. And tell us what media you would have relied upon to focus on the truth.

[Eloriel]

70. I'll describe for you SOME of what would've happened

The biggest -- and most important (urgently important) -- thing is that the subject would've gotten a LOT more press. Dan Rather didn't mention the "challenge" at all that night, or if he did it was so short I missed it, and Peter Jennings covered it in one or two sentences near the end of the broadcast.

It was a YAWN, a big, huge yawn. It won't be even as good as a footnote in most of the history books. It was nothing. They all worked really damn hard to ENSURE that it would be nothing, by doing everything in their power, first and foremost to assure and guarantee the Republicangs that they meant no harm, were no thread, weren't doing anything but a little harmless, toothless talking, all of which meant absolutely NOTHING. They took great pains to neuter themselves before they even went in there, and continued to neuter themselves during the Big Yawn that it was. AFAIC, it was all pretty much a waste of energy.

I don't blame KERRY for that, but his involvement could have at least ensured a little more press coverage. But Noooooooooo, he (thinks he) has his 2008 candidacy to protect. Brzzzzt!! Wrong, Senator, you've ignored, neglected and betrayed us once too often now. Your chances are up.

Edited to add: I'd also like to point out that you (and others here) have a very unusual idea about how to get soemthing done: damn near absolute silence. No speaking out (and if you do, be sure to neuter yourselves while you're speaking out), no press, no teeth, no guts, no fire, no nothin'. Yeah, that'll work.

Pffft.

[blm]

88. No. I think you think there's a fair press for the Democrats and somehow

and in some way the people will hear the truth.

There IS no media willing to hear ANY Democrat speak out on an issue. The only way is to focus on the issue, itself. And keep it out there whenenevr you can to force an investigation The best way to KILL an investigation and the evidence is to demand the election be overturned.

[mistertrickster]

124. Wow, well said. Agreed!

nt

[radio4progressives]

94. Yeah! Too bad Kerry didn't play his Chest instead...

You should have seen what the mods did on the Kerry forum..

if anyone brought up intelligent critisms DURING the campaign, offering SOLUTIONS to the campaign problems, not just complaints, those messages were deleted and the poster eventually banned.

Kerry continued with his very flawed platform, and his very flawed campaign strategy.

He still won the election, despite that - but it appears to some people that Kerry didn't actually want to win.

[LittleClarkie]

129. Handlers? What handlers?

We is jus' po' rankin' and filin' DUers like y'all.

[NYCGirl]

130. He's referring to the poster who was here called

"Democratic Strategist", I believe, who asked for our opinions and then took a powder.

[InvisibleBallots]

20. no, we need to keep it up, for two reasons

First of all, we need to disabuse Loser Kerry of any notion of running again, and keep him sitting pretty in the Senate where he can't do much damage - that's job number one.

Two, we need to scare the shit out of the other Losers/Cowards so they realize that if they roll over like a dog in heat like Kerry did, they won't be forgiven.

[Prodemsouth]

29. I agree, well said. It is amazing to me that kerry has any defenders left

on this board. Spent Christmas with Arnold in CA. Oh I forgot he is in his little defeatist elitist world playing Chess while we peons are playing checkers. Why does he want to help Arnold remove the stink of campaigning for Bush? Why does he want to help Arnold in CA in 06? When he did that stupid "Girly man" routine at that idiot convention? :puke:

[OrwellwasRight]

63. Great post.

No support for "losers/cowards." Spread the word!

[Eloriel]

71. I've been saying since BEFORE 2002 that the people we

really ought to protest are the DEMS, the spinless, clueless, can't-hear-you-and-wouldn't-listen-anyway DEMS.

[radio4progressives]

98. totally agree..

[InvisibleBallots]

122. a hard lesson to learn, Eloriel

Let's hope we learn it sooner than later.

[radio4progressives]

95. Fully Agree n/t

[Southsideirish]

50. Why can't he be held accountable for his actions?

He lost us the election and now we are stuck with bush for 4 more long miserable years.

[Misunderestimator]

53. "He lost us the election" Uh-huh...

One man lost us the election? One man. Damn. I admire Kerry even more now thinking of all he did as one man to try to stop the nightmare. Thank you, John Kerry... you have all my prayers to continue your good work in the Senate. :toast:

[lojasmo]

62. Enabling Bush's policies is "good work? Uh-uh.

maybe he'll vote yea in the Iran War Resolution too....that'd be great!

[Eloriel]

72. No, he didn't "lose us the election,"

He DID, however, give it away, on Wed., Nov. 3, when he conceded prematurely.

I don't happen to believe he lost at all, and I think anyone objectively looking at ALL the evidence, testimony, reports, facts and figures about anomalies and glitches and millions-to-one outcomes would agree.

[tavalon]

114. Yeah, what you said n/t

[jrthin]

52. Excuse me, but as someone

who gave precious dollars, time and energy to this man's campaign, I think I and others like myself have EARNED the right to criticize this man for NOT doing what he said he would do: make sure every single vote counted. If anything, if shouldn't have been Boxer standing up, it should have been him. Deal with it, the man is a big disappointment.

[Misunderestimator]

60. And as someone who has also given precious dollars, time and energy

to this man's campaign, I think I have EARNED the right to defend the man for continuing to fight to do what he said he would do. Why do you assume that he is not still fighting that fight?

[OrwellwasRight]

64. What evidence do yo have that he is fighting

anything? He wasn't even present for the first vote of the 109th Congress.

[Misunderestimator]

65. What evidence do you have that he's not?

[OrwellwasRight]

67. Plenty.

That he conceded before all the votes were counted.
That he made no public speech defending the rights of the disenfranchised in Ohio.
That wasn't even in DC when the electoral college votes were certified.
That he sent a slimy e-mail on the day before certification to campaign donors and volunteers (one of whom was me) that said we should call Hastert and Frist about it (when, as a Senator himself, his signature was all that was needed and would have been much more effective than even millions of phone calls from non-constituents).

There is plenty of evidence that he is just not participating in this issue; he does not see it as his fight.

And you still have not answered my question.

[femme.democratique]

84. Jesse Jackson said Kerry fought AGAINST their work in Ohio!

This was said during a live interview the Majority Report on Friday.
So, pray tell, why would Kerry fight against a group like this, one being led quite visibly by one of his political advisors during the campaign? Sounds to me like he's involved in some shady stuff, and I have written him off. You want evidence? Theres your evidence.

If Kerry runs again and gets the nomination in '08 (instead of someone who cares more for the principles of democracy - and is willing to fight for them - than his own political grandeur) he will be just as reponsible for destroying this country as *.

[OrwellwasRight]

85. I'm on your side.

Did you mean to reply to the post above me?

[femme.democratique]

89. yup, replied to wrong post .... so sorry!!! :-) eom

[InvisibleBallots]

115. Jesse Jackson and the Greens said Kerry worked AGAINST them

Kerry is a traitor to the cause, and it's a goddamn shame that the syncophants and suckers don't get it yet.

[LittleClarkie]

131. Can you explain further what Jesse and the Greens said specifically

that Kerry did to work against them.

I don't understand, for instance, if he is entered in a lawsuit with them that he could be working against them.

[LittleClarkie]

132. Can you elaborate on what Jesse Jackson said specifically

How did Kerry fight against them?

[jrthin]

91. Thank you for clearly stating

what Kerry HASN'T done to advance voters' rights, and how in instances he's worked against our interest. Unlike *'s followers who alway defend his indefensibles, I'm a dem follower who won't defend my leader's (?) indefensibles.

[OrwellwasRight]

102. You're welcome.

If we keep accepting mediocre leadership, we'll keep getting mediocre leaders. I'm not sure why lots of folks on this thread are going to extremes to defend behavior that is clear anti-thetical to the interests of both the American "democratic" system and the Democratic party.

[stray cat]

2. That he didn't want to minimize the protests impact.

Any involvement by Kerry would reinforce the perception that the protest is because of a sore loser. I think the democrats played it right. We need election reform not "democrats are whiny sore losers".

[Kolesar]

12. well stated & nicely contrasted w/ the inflammatory thesis of this thread

[OrwellwasRight]

22. Repubs don't play "nice," though.

They called us sore losers anyway (in both the Seante and House debates), and it was reprinted and repeated in the mainstream and far-right press, shows and blogosphere.

We have to stop playing defense (I won't say anything because the Republicans will say X) and do what is right becasuee it is right.

David Brock makes this point well in The Republican Noise Machine.

[SpongeBob]

37. We also needed to contest THIS election

In Ukraine the oppoeing party also called the (real winner) a sore loser, then they had another election and guess what, the "sore loser" won (again). Election reform also involves challenging unfair elections AND prosecution for crimes of federal fraud. The showing by the Democratic senators besides Boxer was absolutely pathetic. Most of them basically said that there WAS fraud (or "irregularities") but they STILL accept the election results. Dodd even said "the system doesn't work anymore." So then how in the world could he accept the results? These people, including Kerry, worry solely about their image. The Republicans don't worry about this at all, and they bully, whine and sue their way into power (not to mention steal, murder and lie).

[OrwellwasRight]

68. Hi SpongeBob!

Nice post.

:hi:

[SpongeBob]

112. Hi OrwellwasRight!

Thanks.:hi:

[InvisibleBallots]

45. Kerry reinforced the perception of himself as a cowardly loser

I'm sorry, I'm not going to believe the conspiracy theories that this major loss and Kerry's cowardly concession were part of some elaborate, "behind the scenes" smart move on Kerry's part. Some people will believe anything.

[Eloriel]

76. If we can't learn to counter the lies and spin from the rightwing

they will FOREVER control us -- control what WE say and DO, the debate, the agenda, the campaigns, all mrdia, all elections, and certainly all parts of government.

I am losing patience with those who counsel keeping silent in the face of this fascist onslaught because they MIGHT say something bad or ugly about us. BUCK IT UP. There's a whole democracy -- the world's oldest -- at stake here. If that's not worth getting your hands dirty and your hair mussed, getting called names and worse, then maybe you deserve what the growingly likely alternative is. And I mean that.

[OrwellwasRight]

103. You're so right.

Why defend actions that did not work when what we need is to boldly stand up for what we know is right?

We didn't get the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act passed by taking polls, seeing what wouldn't offend too many Republicans, and what would play to swing voters. We did it by being moral superior. That's leadership!

[mistertrickster]

125. And by getting our heads bashed in and shot and killed all across the

South, not to mention Skokie, IL.

Now it'd be, "oh what will Bill O'Reilly say?"

[CTLawGuy]

107. if we base our actions on trying to minimize

Republican criticism, then we will always be in the minority.

Notice how they do not care what we think of them...

[Overseas]

136. I think the "Sore Loser" Concept is a Republican Plant

I think Democratic party officials fell for another Republican line-- Oh golly, must not be a Sore Loser-- ooooh !!--- heaven forbid!! So instead Kerry should be a quickly-conceding, run away "Reporting for Duty-- Not!" Democrat that lets his people down?!?! Hey, much better than a sore loser, huh? Wimp leaving his voters in the dust or Sore Loser fighting for each person's right to vote ? Hmmm, let's see...

Just as embarassing as the sorry Democratic party officials falling for the "you all should have a Positive Convention-- don't do Bush Bashing-- the people need to know who John Kerry is" suggestions. What chumps we were to fall for that one, too !! Heaven forbid that we tell the truth about the Bush administration... No, let's be lovely and postitive-- let 'em know what an admirable fellow Kerry is, since we didn't want to respond to those months of nasty slurs by the Swift Boat Vets... Man, I could imagine the Republicans laughing as they planned their own hateful convention full of venomous lies...

[Benhurst]

3. How could he stand with Boxer when he was, as promised,

down here in North Carolina coverning my back?

[InvisibleBallots]

What's to say? Kerry is a Loser

Not only is he a Loser, he is a Loser that's unwilling to fight. If I were the suspicious type, I figured that the fix was in from the beginning - lots of "Democrats" wanted the war against Iraq, so they put up Bush's frat-brother as the token opposition.

But then again, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, so let's just say Kerry is a Loser.

[Cobalt Violet]

10. I disagree with you.

[InvisibleBallots]

13. you mean, Kerry is a winner?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree? :shrug:

[Cobalt Violet]

28. I think so.

I think he won. I think this was a stolen election and unless he has the source code from the tabulators I think he did the right thing. It's going to take more than any one man or woman to fight this.

[InvisibleBallots]

51. I might agree with you, if Kerry had opened his mouth

all during the last 4 years, when we were all screaming at the top of our lungs about Diebold and the GOP corporations that were running the election.

Kerry remained silent as a Senator, Kerry remained silent as a candidate, Kerry remained silent as the nominee, and he remains silent as a loser.

I have no doubt the Republicans cheated in specific precincts, but frankly - with the way Kerry did everything possible to lose - it wouldn't surprise me if Bush had won this one honestly (unlike last time).

[Carolina]

145. so right

it's the silence that kills us!

In 2002, I warned a prominent, local lawyer who was a big Kerry supporter and one of the attorneys pledged to help prevent another Florida (in terms of voter intimidation) about the pitfalls of computerized voting. This guy did not believe me, thought I was a crazed tinfoil hatter. I persisted with articles, references, etc. Still he was mute. Nonetheless on November 3rd, I continued with a barage of email links about Ohio....

His wimpass replies boiled down to: We did all we could!

He and Kerry are on my shitlist for this. They turned a blind eye and said and did nothing about the privatization of vote casting and tabulation. Thanks to Diebold, ES&S and people like Ken Blackwell, traditional strategies like candidate, message, and get out the vote efforts don't and won't matter. Kerry was warned. And he did nothing yet he promised he would fight.

[tavalon]

116. No way was he part of "the fix"

However, he was astoundingly spineless and the letter I got from him the other day ended any belief in me that he was anything but.

Yo, Kerry, you forgot to turn the boat back and report for duty! And it will be remembered, I promise you!

[AlbizuX]

4. spineless....

Did I say that out loud...oh god, I'm gonna get flamed...:scared:

[liberalpragmatist]

8. I'm not interested in flame wars

On either sides. We'll agree to disagree and there are far more important and more timely issues to deal with that I'm sure we all agree on.

[Cobalt Violet]

11. I disagree with you!

[ginnyinWI]

5. He did the right thing.

What else could he do? It isn't about him, and he would have been a huge distraction from the message they wanted to put out.

[InvisibleBallots]

56. he could have mentioned Diebold before the election?

He had four years to talk about how Bush stole the last election, and what Diebold and ES&S were doing - he didn't say shit.

[Eloriel]

77. Ahhh, but he DID tell us to quit crying in our teacups and

get over it. So it's not as if he wasn't aware of how we felt (and callously, self-absorbedly didn't give a damn).

[robbedvoter]

83. AND he didn't do a thing about Diebold, voting for the past 4 years

IN THE SENATE. (how many here believe he'll start now?)

[InvisibleBallots]

97. let's not forget the pro-Kerry Conspiracy Theories

"Kerry isn't fighting back against the Swift Boat Vets because he has a secret plan."

"Kerry has had the goods on Bush since Iran/Contra and BCCI - he's just waiting for the right time to expose them."

"Kerry is working behind the scenes on the voting irregularities".

My FAVORITE: "Kerry is a great closer, he's just waiting until the last minute to come out swinging!"

SUCKERS - some people will believe anything :eyes:

[CTLawGuy]

109. and my favorite

"Kerry didn't vote for the war. The war resolution wasnt really a war resolution. He was voting to 'hold Saddam accountable' and 'protect America'. He is really against the war. Now Dean is really for the war, because a long time ago he favored using force to get rid of dangerous WMD in Iraq, never mind that he was against going to war based on ZERO evidence of WMD. And... and... if Dean were in the Senate, we dont know how he would have voted... you can't tell unless you're actually there..."

:eyes:

[Leilani]

138. Those are the things that get me really angry.

Once, during the campaign I posted that Kerry was losing support among women, & he'd better fix it.

Well, I was accused of being nuts, delusional, ill-informed...you name it.

They were the Kerry folks in a state of denial, & they still are.

[liberalpragmatist]

6. He shouldn't have challenged the results - he was right to let Boxer do it

I understand people feel Kerry should have been the primary mover in all of this, but I disagree. Had Kerry been involved in challenging the results in Congress, the story would have been about HIM. Not only would it have made him look bad as a sore loser, more importantly it would have completely eclipsed any coverage of the challenge. The story would have become "Kerry challenges Bush's reelection" NOT "Dems Raise Questions About Validity of Ohio Vote." It would have blocked ANY discussion about the real issues raised by the Ohio voting.

This isn't just strategizing for Kerry's benefit, it's common sense and good for the party. Kerry's being involved would have guaranteed more coverage but it wouldn't have been the kind of coverage we need.

[Eloriel]

79. No, he didn't have to be "primary mover" and I've seen few arguments

that he should've been. Most of us are saying that -- well, that he was noticeable by his absence. He could've been tastefully a little more engaged, and little more visible, and done the whole thing a lot more GOOD as a result, including a lot more publicity-- we NEED more Americans to understand these problems. His silence helped nothing but his own (imagined future) ambitions.

[liberalpragmatist]

106. Disagree somewhat but I can see your point

Personally I still feel that any major statement of support by Kerry would have made him the focus. However I can see your point and maybe a statement that expressed support for the challenge in addition to saying he would not take part would have been more balanced.

[RogueTrooper]

7. He was in Iraq

at the time. Kerry not saying anything strengthened our case. If he had been there, or if he had commented the calles of "sore loserman" would have drowned out the valid points made by our congressmembers and senators.

[graywarrior]

9. Can we move the fuck on to BUSH BASHING?

This Kerry bashing got old on Nov 3.

[stray cat]

15. Amen!

[OrwellwasRight]

18. Point taken. Still, Bush Bashing would be more effective if

we had good leadership to take it to the people and it was not just DUers taking to each other.

Thus, I think it is appropriate to examine, analyze, create ideas for improvement, and to ensure that our leaderhsip holds up its end of the bargain.

[Misunderestimator]

24. Indeed.

It's eerie how certain people are obsessed with bashing Kerry over and over again, for absolutely no reason. The discussion has been had, why bring it up again and again, day after day. I'm tired of this... I would be proud to have done as much for this country as John Kerry has. And I'm sick of anonymous posters taking out their own inadequacies on him.

[mistertrickster]

26. Nice ad hominem. Say, have you been talking to my wife?! Or perhaps

my ex-wife . . .

[Misunderestimator]

30. The ad hominem was to explain the inadequacies of someone

who attacks someone who has more than likely devoted much more of his life to public service and generally liberal principles than the attacker. Believe me... I have no interest in any other inadequacy you might have.

[Cobalt Violet]

31. Yes , we can.

How about the Moran in Cheif having a big bash while our troops in Iraq are dying?

[radio4progressives]

99. ok.. Death Squads in Iraq by appointing Negroponte.. Guess Whoo Confirmed

THAT APPOINTMENT?????

:grr:

[tavalon]

117. LOL

that never stopped. I'm sorry but this is one way we will process through this betrayal. It isn't an either/or, these two can be bashed simultaneously. We on DU are, for the most part, multitaskers.

[OrwellwasRight]

14. Collaborator.

I'm so disappointed, but not surprised. I saw it when he conceded before all the votes were counted.

I'm so tired of our party leadership seeing everything in black and white. The people who defended Kerry's preemptive concession had one reason: he wasn't going to win, so what should he have done, sue like Gore?

NO. There were lots of other choices. For a minimum, he could have given a speech about the importance of democracy, cited the Afghani example, and said that no one should declare victory or defeat until EVERY SINGLE VOTE HAS BEEN COUNTED.

If Americans are ever going to wake up, it must begin by having faith the the electoral system is at least honest, and Kerry has demonstrated that this is neither a priority nor an interest of his.

[mistertrickster]

25. Thanks for a clear-eyed analysis. This is basically my feeling too.

I got an e-mail message from Kerry saying how we should support Boxer, but he wasn't going to challenge it with her.

Well hell, John, so it's "do as I say but not as I do."

Thanks for the motivation . . .

[marcologico]

27. make check out to Rev. Moon

[OrwellwasRight]

36. Cheers. I got the same e-mail and I actually replied, writing

"Are you going to challenge the Ohio votes? I think it would be more effective than my phone calls to Frist and Hastert because I am not a constituent of theirs and my comments would probably wind up in the proverbial 'circular file.' Thank you."

I hope I am not on some "naughty list" at the DNC because of that. I hope other people did it too.

[Eloriel]

80. Surely you jest

The DNC isn't organized or savvy enough to have any kind of list, let alone a "naughty list." Your reply doubtless didn't even get read. But nice try, and I DO find your optimism and idealism endearing. :evilgrin:

[marcologico]

17. maybe he was standing with Howie the Hasbeen and his also-ran friends

oh wait, Kerry was in Iraq.

[radio4progressives]

100. In Iraq on January 6th. just where the Candidate Elect needed to be...

[Leilani]

140. The Candidate Elect?

Have I missed a breaking story?

Talk about denial!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. I feel Kerry did what was feasible. I also feel it had MORE impact coming

from someone other than him. I realize that seems to relegate me to minority status around here anymore, but I ask people spreading this "fix was in shit" this...how do I know you aren't part of the fix?

[hansolsen]

21. There are a lot of reasons I believe Kerry was a terrible candidate. I

doubt this one would even make my top ten list of what's wrong with Kerry. In any case he is dead to me, as a candidate in 2008. Let him rot in the Senate.

[graywarrior]

23. Kerry bashers never have a poster profile

Run for office if you don't like it. See how far you get. Me? I'd rather bash Bush to hell and make his life miserable for the next four years.

[marcologico]

32. Rev. Moon I mean Dr. Dean advise them not to. n/t

[OrwellwasRight]

49. I don't understand your obsession with Rev. Moon.

Are you saying everyone who wants to make the party better by demanding more from our candidates and leadership only thinks this because they read the Washington Times and follow a pseudo-Christian cult leader/millionaire/news publisher?

I guess I just don't understand your rhetoric.

[InvisibleBallots]

74. It's a simple smear, they hate the idea of grassroots involvement

Hell, Dean even put up his campaign financing to a vote - that's actual real democracy, which is of course, the same as Rev. Moon.

[mistertrickster]

That's the "either - or" argument. Just because everything Bush does

is bad (which it is, some of it is even scandously illegal) doesn't mean that everything Kerry does (or in this case, doesn't do) is right.

I posted this just to see what people thought about it mainly. I can see why Kerry didn't want to make himself the focus, but I also believe at this point (and I may change my mind) that the man over-intellectualizes issues. He's frickin' Hamlet: "thus is native hue or resolution sicklied over with this pale cast of thought."

I think the Dems would be better served with candidates and leaders who just let it fly, personally.

[liberalpragmatist]

38. Could it be? A non-Kerry supporter who I can reason with?

Please let it be. From your post clearly we have some differences, but you seem like a reasonable person who isn't obsessed with destroying Kerry. I would love to have a reasoned discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the Democratic Party in presidential races, with Kerry as a major topic of conversation: what were his relative strengths/weaknesses, how much was his fault, what kinds of traits will it be necessary for us to avoid in our '08 candidate and/or can any of those problems be transcended?

Anyway, I strongly feel Kerry should not have been involved in publicly challenging the results. However, I like your point about Kerry overintellectualizing issues. While I think it would make him a good president I think that tendency hurt him in the campaign - it made him clumsy and slow to respond because he was constantly evaluating every possible outcome or justification.

[OrwellwasRight]

43. Hear, hear. nt.

[Caution]

33. Coming from Kerry it looks like griping. It HAD to come from someone else

Look, for the issue to be taken seriously it couldnt come from Kerry. The election was never going to be overturned no matter what some of the more zealous here may believe, but the issue needed to be brought to the fore. If it came from Kerry it would have looked like grousing and nothing more. By staying out of it Kerry in fact gave the matter more credibility. I dont understand why people can't see this one blindingly obvious thing.

[Misunderestimator]

35. They don't want to see it. They want to have a rationale for their...

obsession with insulting Kerry. So this is just one more little weapon in their defeatist arsenal.

[mistertrickster]

41. Ease up, my friend. I sent money to Kerry and wrote letters to the editor

supporting his campaign, which is about as much as a person can do in my redder-than-red state of Kansas.

I think he would have been one of the best presidents we've ever had. But he had to get elected first, and that's where this perceived "positioning" was killing him.

Of course, if Kerry stood with Boxer it would be "sore loserman" all over again. So what? They're doing that anyway.

At least Kerry would be taking a stand on something.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. He IS taking a stand on something..he wnt to Iraq and met with the Syrian

government. He PROMISED us our voices would be heard...they are being heard... we are the people who believe DIPLOMACY should be attempted BEFORE war...his diplomatic visit stands in SHARP contrast to the Bush bullies. Ever consider that? Some people on the board are calling him a COWARD for going to IRaq.....how many people on this board would go to Iraq right now? There are certainly LESS hazardous places one can go for a photo op...no?

[Eloriel]

81. His displomatic visit

was poorly timed -- it served as a distraction from the MORE important issue of vote fraud and vote suppression. There's no reason that couldn't have happened at a different time than Jan. 6.

There's also no reason he couldn't have spoken out publicly on the issue in addition to issuing that pathetic little almost surreptitious email to his supporters.

I would happily go to Iraq right now if I had the kind of protection I'm sure Kerry did. People calling him a coward for going aren't doing it based on how much he is or isn't putting himself physically at risk. Apparently, he saw any possible photo op in the Senate on Jan. 6 a far more hazardous place to be. And while I've not been one to call him cowardly, now that you bring the subject up, I'll have to say I can see it all too clearly.

I love this line: He PROMISED us our voices would be heard...they are being heard.

And just what has Kerry done to ensure that? Almost nothing. I say "almost" because he did issue that pathetic little almost surreptitious email. And that's about it. He's been about as AWOL as Bush was from the TANG. Sickening, actually.

[Misunderestimator]

47. I trust that he knew more than you or I, and he knew that his

standing with Boxer would minimize the importance of HER stand, by taking attention away from it. Please... DO NOT tell me that you don't think that the media would have been ALL OVER KERRY for being a sore loser? As it was, the Republican senators who spoke painted it as the democrats not "liking the results" of the election and wanting to change it. Every Democratic senator who spoke repeated that it was about election fairness, not about the results of the election. But you know that. And you think it wouldn't be WORSE if Kerry threw his hat in? Ha.

[radio4progressives]

96. Of coruse the Media would have Bashed Kerry for taking a stand, so WHAT?

The "leader of the free world" has to have COURAGE in the line of FIRE and STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT!

Apparently Kerry lacks that kind of courage. He lacks that kind of fortitude. So much for leadership.

[marcologico]

48. Look, why don't you go talk it over at a Moonies for Dean meet-up,

send them all your money, and devote your life to a meaningless also-ran? That's obviously where this is headed, so spare us the soul-searching, you won't find anything.

[mistertrickster]

54. Cool it on your Dean - Moonie connection. You made your point.

Just cool it. Thanks.

[CTLawGuy]

110. this "meaningless also ran"

has his own following, and has a group that is doing good for this party. Dean is a rising star.

the only reason kerry should be going to Iraq is to apologize for voting to send them there.

[houyhnhnm]

137. It's an oedipal thing. n/t

[SpongeBob]

39. In Ukraine and Romania the CANDIDATE lead the fight...

This was needed in order for the people to rise with their leader and demand another election. It happened. In this country, the (real winner) conceded and then faded into oblivion (or Syria).

[marcologico]

42. Right, with CIA backing. Well the CIA candidate won here too. n/t

[Eloriel]

82. Right, and this candidate didn't have to LEAD it, but he also didn't

have to RUN FROM IT as he did. It really was embarrassing, IMO.

[saltpoint]

40. Kerry's recent two-hour meeting with --

-- the Syrian president and his comments afterward say to me that he is standing up for American foreign policy.

In this accomplishment, he is doing Dubya's job for him, as Dubya and his people appear to have no clue on why it might be pertinent to speak with border neighbors of a sovereign country the United States has just pre-emptively attacked.

Unsurprisingly, Kerry spoke ably and substantively, unlike the current president, on foreign policy or any other subject for that matter.

A U.S. Senator is a public servant. Kerry was doing his job, doing it ably, and doing it a hell of a lot better than Bush.

[graywarrior]

44. Put the blame squarely where it belongs: The Democratic Party

I repeat: The Democratic Party SUCKS!!!! ALL OF THEM! Kerry got nominated. If Dean got the nomination, he'd be the recipient of a good bashing now. Kucinich? Bashed. Sharpton? Bashed. Lieberman, Gephardt, Edwards? Bashed, bashed, bashed.

NO ONE WAS WATCHING THE STORE during the elections even tho everyone knew it would be stolen again. I blame the entire bunch of them.

[Misunderestimator]

57. Well said, graywarrior.... we all know that would be the scenario...

for whomever was nominated.

[zulchzulu]

55. Can we bash Feingold or Byrd too? That would be fun!

Don't worry. Kerry has said he will introduce legislation about election reform.

The movie isn't over yet.

[mistertrickster]

59. Thanks for that. I hadn't heard. I wonder why he didn't mention that

in his e-mail. But it's good to hear.

[OrwellwasRight]

66. A Democrat introducing legislation in the 109th Congress

is, for all intents and purposes, a symbolic gesture. Do you honestly belive the Republicans will even give it a committee hearing? Look at the record of the more than 5,000 bills introduced in the House alone last Congress.

He would have been more effective had he discussed the facts; gotten in the trenches with those turned away with provisional ballots that would not be counted; those who left after waiting in line for four hours only to have the polls close on them before they could vote; those who saw the touch screen computer record a vote different than the one they punched in.

Appearing with the disenfranchised is more effective than any bill that will wallow in committee and be about as effective as HAVA was even if it did pass.

[tavalon]

119. and we will be watching carefully

It's high time we stopped sending 98% of the incumbents back to Washington and only send those back who are responsive to We The People not the corporations.

I'm not at all impressed with Kerry at this point. I and many others will be watching him carefully. May he behave in a more appropriate manner from here on out.

[T Town Jake]

58. He was the nominee, and worthy of the support given him...

...those who bash him now are "fair-weather" Democrats, or worse, to me. It gets tiresome.

[Eloriel]

69. Why nothing, of course -- whoever expected anything more is

pathetically, sadly, "poignantly" (to use a friend's kind and compassionate word) delusional IMO.

He's a self-serving opportunistic ass. Always has been, or at least since sometime after his anti-War days.

[zulchzulu]

73. What a load of pig dung

Kerry has been working on the election results with his legal team after the election. Perhaps that truth is hard for you to handle.

Boxer did her duty. Perhaps you could also diss Feingold, Byrd or other senators who were possibly going to make the statement.

As for your half-witted statement that Kerry should "stop strategizing and just stand up for something", perhaps you knew that he is MORE liberal than Ted Kennedy over the past 20+ years of service as senator.

Methinks he has been standing up for something.

[robbedvoter]

87. Uh, Boxer's duties are different from others'? Why? Is she the boss?

The candidate? Has higher standards for herself?
What does "liberal" mean to you? Someone who condones sensless wars? Someone who opposes raising minimum wage? Someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about democracy/voting rights? :wtf:

[zulchzulu]

93. Ah yes...the old not knowing WTF you are talking about syndrome...

It's always fun dealing with mealy-mouthed, uninformed Kerry bashers like you....such simple work... granted, it usually falls on deaf ears..

First of all, Kerry doesn't "condone senseless wars". Oh, check out how "senseless" is spelled.

If you're talking about the IWR, it was an agreement that Clark, Dean and others agreed with. Let the UN do its job with weapons inspections and if need be, disarm Saddam after forming a large UN coalition and go to war AS A LAST RESORT. This shit has been covered here over and over again...but some seem to get lost..like they are stupid or something.

Secondly, the completely DUMBASS response that Kerry doesn't want to raise the minimum wage PROVES that you have NO IDEA about Kerry's long progressive record.

If you know how to click on a link, check this out:
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0618.html

In case you're lost or confused (or doing crack), Kerry wants to raise the minimum wage to $7.00/hour by 2007.

Thanks for playing...

Next.

[mistertrickster]

127. We're all half-witted, mealy-mouthed Kerry bashers. I don't think so.

Some of the criticisms voiced here so far have been overly harsh, IMHO I agree. That wasn't what I intended when I started the post.

A laundry list of all Kerry's flaws (real or perceived) isn't very helpful for moving on to a better tomorrow.

But for a candidate who was effectively attacked as "not standing for anything," he sure doesn't seem to be doing much to change that perception. Sending an e-mail telling people to contact Frist and Hasert while standing aloof from the process doesn't seem right on the face of it.

As for the assertion that I can find out what Kerry stands for by going to his web-site. Dude, do you have to go to Bush's web-site to know what he stands for? No--he stands for tax breaks for the rich, the evangelical social agenda, big gov't contracts to friends, and war with any country he doesn't like. These are horrible goals, but there's absolutely no ambiguity there.

Quick--what was Kerry's number one priority?

You see the problem? It's not that he doesn't stand for anything.

It's that he SEEMS not to stand for anything.

[InvisibleBallots]

118. *yawn*

Kerry didn't do shit - ask Jesse Jackson or the Green party.

"As for your half-witted statement that Kerry should "stop strategizing and just stand up for something", perhaps you knew that he is MORE liberal than Ted Kennedy over the past 20+ years of service as senator."

Yeah, thanks Senator Kerry for NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, the rest of the "free trade" sellouts from that Corporate Whore, along with his surrender, his pro-war, pro-corporate, pro-PATRIOT Act votes.

With "Democrats" like Kerry - who needs Republicans?

[tavalon]

121. Do you have proof on these assertions

or is it wishful thinking? I'm serious, hit us up with some links, please.

Yes, he filed with the Greens and Libs, however, he also sent that abysmal email where he told us to talk to Hastert and Frist. He said that counting all the votes mattered but not enough to hold off on his concession speech. And so on.

Show us the money, please.

[zulchzulu]

135. OK...I guess I'll do your homework for you

Here are some links regarding Kerry's efforts with the recount and post-election problems:

Recount efforts in Ohio by Kerry intensify
http://www.northcountynews.com/view.asp?s=11-17-04/news5.htm

Kerry/Edwards Campaign Participates in Ohio Recount
http://toughenough.org/2004/11/kerryedwards-campaign-participates-in.html

Kerry to Enter Ohio Recount Fray
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/122404Y.shtml

Kerry donates $250,000 for recount efforts
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/news/nation/10345859.htm

Cam Kerry and Kerry legal team announce efforts on Nov 9 2004
http://rsa.cwrl.utexas.edu/archives/2004/11/from_cam_kerry.html

Think Kerry Is Not Involved In This Fight? Think Again.
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm

[Geek_Girl]

75. I Like Kerry

But he keeps playing chess while the GOP plays Hockey. He gets ready to move a pawn and they wap him upside the head with a Hockey stick.

[Geek_Girl]

78. I'm Just Happy that One Senator stood up

I wasn't expecting that. I think Reid, Kerry and the rest planned it this way. They only needed one senator to vote yes and Barbara Boxer was the best choice. I would have loved to see them all stand up and vote yes, but I know that was not going to happen.

Considering what happened in '00 this is progress. At this rate of progress we may even be able to take back the White House in 2052.;)

[tavalon]

123. LOL!

So true, so true.

[robbedvoter]

86. Pulling a Kerry - talking for your constituents , voting for W

Of course, in kerry's case, it was only an e-mail, and running as far as possible from voting - but I think I'll devote this technique to him as he set the tone.

[laugle]

90. KERRY'S NO SHOW FOR BOXER

kERRY IS A COWARD!!!  First he conceeds the election too
quickly, and now he doesn't even stand with Boxer and all of
us who voted for him.  He thinks he can run again in 2008, but
he is dreaming.  Kerry has become one BIG LOSER!!!

[marcologico]

92. So where was Howie, SBVT patrol? Or cooking up a new slander-site?

Stand Up Democrats my ass.

[InvisibleBallots]

120. Maybe Boxer can show Kerry what a SPINE looks like

because that whimpy little coward obviously has no clue.

Boxer/Dean 2008!

[marcologico]

101. Folks singing from the Rove choirbook is not doing much for your also-ran.

And incidentally the primaries ended 10 months ago.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

104. Best course for public credibility of Democratic Party

You have to pick your fights intelligently. If Kerry had absolute proof of malfeasance as a defeated candidate he only recourse would have been the court system first and not on the floor of the US Senate. Both Kerry and the Democratic Party would have been humiliated by not first pursuing due legal process. The case could not be legally made with any reasonable assurance of at least winning in the court of public opinion. There is a point when you need to cut your loses and stop the bleeding. The significant and inspiring protest by Barbara Boxer both illuminated and documented the fact that we know what they are doing but we can’t legally prove it, yet! I might add that I personally do not support giving Kerry another shot in 2008 a marginally smarter (mishandled Iraq and Swifties) campaign this time would have beaten the very vulnerable *idiot*.

[biglake]

105. Influence? Anyone? Suit to release Heintz papers?

What happened? Anyone know if this brought undue pressure to bear? Timing was right...seemed Kerry abdicated right after this got some press......Dean 2008. Yes.

[Gyre]

108. dead man walking

He might wish he wasn't poltical flotsam, but he's just whistling past the political graveyard.

Gyre

[Indiana-Bluejay]

111. We are in a world of sh*t...

After reading through this thread I have just one or two cents to throw into it.

On the point of Kerry not standing with Boxer, personally I was disappointed. That being said I also understood why he didn't. In 2000 the "Liberal" (I say that with a smile), media lambasted Gore. The story was then as it would have been now about how Gore was a sore loser and not about how broken the election system in this nation is. I normally would be one of the first to say that any news coverage about a problem is good coverage, but in this conservative/Fox News lead media environment the wrong slant on the story would have been what we would have heard about had Kerry stepped up.

I do however believe that all the Democratic Senators should have stood with Boxer. The fact that they didn't is very troubling and points to much deeper problems than just losing/"having another one stolen" this past election.

I agree with the statements made in this thread that strong leadership is needed by Democrats/Liberals (as if you can be liberal and Republican (I sometimes make myself laugh)).

Would I personally support Kerry again in 2008 if he ran? At this point I am not sure. There are a few things about him I didn't like as much as some other Democrats. But if he was on the ballot for the general election in 2008 you can be sure I would vote for him and be proud a Dem was back in the White House and that maybe the dark times were finally past.

In the meantime I am working off the assumption we need to make our collective voices heard at every opportunity. We need to let people know just how bad it has gotten and just how much the system needs to be fixed so that we can trust the election results.

Personally I am disappointed that all of our elected officials care so little for the law of the land and the rights of it's citizens that they didn't make a much bigger deal on January 6th as they all should have, no matter what party they are from.

[demwing]

113. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

and you don't bring a chess board to a political street brawl

[LittleClarkie]

133. It's sort of like watching the debate geek get beat up by the popular jock

Kerry got his glasses knocked off.

But the kid's tougher than he looks.

[autorank]

126. Could he be another "Douche Bag of Liberty?"

Hey, I gave, worked, ranted, etc. for this guy. He's a bit too esoteric for me at this point. If he stands up and just slams *'s ass a few times and does it effectively, some admiration will return. In general, however, he's really wimped out. I remember a C-Span candid moment after a NH speech when they caught an exchange between Clark and a supporter. The supporter said something about * and some military hacks coming after Clark. Clark said, "Oh don't worry, we'll kick the living shit out of them." It was obvious he meant it. He was my candidate and he is now my candidate. I agree with the DUer demwing above, it's time to realize we're in a war. Sorry Kerry, you let us down.

[Freddie Stubbs]

128. A realist who isn't a sore loser

Someone who knows when it's over and time to move on.

[LittleClarkie]

134. A hat, a broach, or a pterodactyl

I'm sick.

[demwing]

141. I get it!

took a minute. Guess this was a bad day to stop doing coke, eh?

[LittleClarkie]

144. Joke grenade

Delayed fuse. No worries.

[LibertyorDeath]

139. I can still here his Authoritative voice loud & clear

We will MAKE SURE EVERY VOTE IS COUNTED!

Oh Yeah

We have an army of Lawyers.

Oh Yeah

We will not allow a repeat of 2000

oh Yeah.

& I will concede faster than a speeding bullet to the worst unelected piece of shit ever to darken the door of the White House.

Lets just say he is capable of more.....

[Califooyah Operative]

142. I don't make anything special

of kerry distancing himself from it, unlike gore he didn't try to stop it from happeneing. Kerry's people were there for the recounts and have been helping us, he's trying to help lobby for election reform with us.

Even better than kerry being there in my opinion is The fact that reid was at boxer's side, and 8 or 9 or so i forget, big name senator's stood up and spoke in support of boxer and the cause. That shows that atleast some of the democratic establishment has commited itself and is not afraid to be assosciated with the cause.

Kerry is doing good things as we speak, it's too early to judge on what we dont know on this particular issue.

[youngred]

143. He wasn't even in the country

and doing so would be posinous when he was trying to rally the country together to face the very real dangers.

Why bash Kerry? It's over.

[sendero]

146. Why single out Kerry....

... the ONLY way the electoral showdown would have done ANY GOOD AT ALL would have been for ALL or at least ALMOST ALL Democratic Senators to "stand up".

The media would have some red meat they could not ignore, the Senators would have the cover of unity.

But no, we have a bunch of losers working for us in Washington. Losers with no balls, no vision, no principals worth risking their "go along to get along" jobs.

Please, this is not just about Kerry, this is about the people in our party that we need to methodically one by one defeat with a candidate who will actually DO SOMETHING.


on edit: Needless to say, the incredible Barbara Boxer excluded :)

[lojasmo]

147. My opinion is unchanged since 2002. Kerry has betrayed us...

In order to remain "electable"

how did that work out, again?