So who is the most liberal of those running for Chair?

[genius]

I'd like a liberal with Dean's fighting ability.

[Tom Rinaldo]

1. Liberal is important to me, but not beholden to special interests

That is more important to me. Being passionate about rebuilding the Party from the ground up, that is critical to me. I want a true believer in the mission of restoring the Democratic Party to it's traditional role of voice of the people. That transcends the traditional spectrum. I think that is radical.

Howard Dean may or may not be the most Liberal among the candidates. He certainly is more Liberal than many, and he is Liberal enough for me. I support him because I think he will be more effective than any of them at reconnecting our Party to it's roots.

[genius]

2. I would like someone who is anti-NAFTA and anti-death penalty

at least if possible, though.

[imenja]

3. Here we go again

What is this? The National Journal? Would it be possible to discuss the reasons why you support a particular candidate rather than relying on labels like who is the most "liberal"? Each of us might define liberal differently. Which tactics or direction do you want the DNC chair to take? You mention Dean's fighting ability. Do you like his candidacy otherwise, or are you looking for someone else because you don't think he's a likely option?

I'm not very knowledgeable about the internal workings of the DNC but I did watch the CSPAN broadcast of the Southern Democratic Caucus. I find myself completely unimpressed with Roemer, who I hear is a leading contender, because he seems completely devoid of new ideas. I also don't like the fact he voted for the Bush economic plan but not Bill Clinton's. I was surprisingly impressed with Martin Frost from what I saw of him during the Southern Democratic Caucus interviews. He spoke of the importance of competing in the South, but not forsaking African-American voters in order to pursue white Southerners. He's also highly motivated by Delay's success at redistricting him out of office. I'd love someone who would go after Delay.
I like Dean as well, but found myself unimpressed with the others on the stage. Fowler got on my nerves. He reminds me of one of those guys in high school always running for class president. He uses the annoying politician thumb gesture, but with a weak, flopping hand. He's not the most articulate of men either. These are superficial comments I realize, but that was my impression. The job entails a good deal of speaking before the media, which probably helps exclude Frost since he's not as pretty as McAuliffe or some of the others. (I of course could care less about his looks, but such things seem to influence others).
Wellington Webb might fit your definition of liberal. I remember thinking he looked okay, but unfortunately specific comments don't stand out.

[genius]

4. It's the issues. We liberals care about the issues more than the person

Thank you for the analysis. It sounds like there might be a couple of liberals there. There's a lot that I don't agree with Dean on. But I definitely his positions better than Roemer's.

[imenja]

7. which issues?

What I'm asking for is greater precision when discussing candidates. I get annoyed with labels, because they say so little. I certainly share your distaste for NAFTA and the death penalty, but they are both difficult issues in American politics. Chapter 11 of NAFTA must be repealed and must not be allowed to enter the FTAA, but I doubt there is a chance of doing away with such agreements in general.

I don't think the DNC chair determines issues the party takes. I see it as an organizational position that involves mainly strategy. The politicians set the issues. The general ideology of the candidate, therefore, seems important, but his stand on specific issues seems less important to me. We need someone who is willing to rethink the direction, electoral strategies, and (dis)organization the party has taken in the past. A fighting spirit, as you point out, is key. I liked Frost's point (I think it was Frost) that we need to start organizing at the local level now, not wait for the presidential candidate to decide which states to focus on. Simon Rosenberg may have made the same point. Rosenberg has a website which I mean to check out and naturally can't locate right now.

[genius]

8. NAFTA, the death penalty, the environment, immediate withdrawal

from Irsq, stopping the changes in malpractic lawsuits, repealing the Intelligence Reform Act and the Patriot Act, re-establishing good relations with Cuba, and expanding Social Security benefits.

[imenja]

10. so you think the role of the DNC chair

is to set specific issues the party takes? Are there previous DNC chairs who have done so? I wonder how that would work? Would Democratic candidates be required to adopt the same positions?
These are genuine questions here. I don't know the answer. But as I said, I imagine the chair's role differently.

[sandnsea]

14. The chair reflects the party

And has to win in all 50 states. I'd love to see how your liberal dream chair would help Alabama or Oklahoma Democrats win.

[eg101]

23. now let me get this straight

The DNC chair like all other political representatives represents the will the people (except the DNC chair represents only Democrats)
Now you seem to think that democratic liberals should set aside their own ideas about what kind of person the DNC chair should be, and instead consider the ideas of conservative democrats, and temper their OWN ideas with those of conservatives.

Let me tell what politics is: it is negotiation. If I go into a car lot and buy a car, I have a price I want to pay. My initial offer is based on that price. The salesman also has a price he wants to get. His initial offer is based on that. I know full well that the salesman's price is different from mine, but I go ahead and name my own price anyway--WITHOUT taking into consideration HIS price. Then we arrive at a negotiated price somewhere in between.

But if I considered what he wanted as a price, and considered it in my initial offer, I would be scewing myself. I might indeed wind up driving the car, but it would be a Pyhrric victory....

Here is an idea: why don't we all just present our OWN views on who should be president, or DNC chair or whatever? That way the president, DNC chair or whatever, will more likely represent ALL the people, as a compromise of ALL viewpoint. If I adopt conservative viewpoints as my own or use them to modify my own views, then I screwed myself in the negotiation process.

How's This? You support politicians who represent YOUR OWN views. And I will support politicians who represent MY OWN views.

That way, when the compromise is struck, it is a fair one.

Another thing--the media is inherently conservative when it comes to trade and the welfare state and war. NO POLITICAL CANDIDATE that they promote or give any substantial mention will EVER be a liberal on those issues.

Therefore, I have yet to see mention of any candidate for the DNC chair that I would support.

[sandnsea]

29. Your final sentence

Is my exact point. No Democrat will ever be liberal enough for some.

[eg101]

32. try reading what I wrote

Another thing--the media is inherently conservative when it comes to trade and the welfare state and war. NO POLITICAL CANDIDATE that they promote or give any substantial mention will EVER be a liberal on those issues.

Therefore, I have yet to see mention of any candidate for the DNC chair that I would support.

You wrote:
Is my exact point. No Democrat will ever be liberal enough for some.

You responded to something I did not write. I will try to rephrase so that you might understand:
THe media presents candidates for us. They do NOT present ALL the candidates, but only SOME of the candidates. I say that none of the candidates they present for us are liberals on economic issues. Therefore I do not support any of them. I did not say that "No Democrat will ever be liberal enough for some." Those are your words, not mine. I simply want a Democrat who is liberal on trade and welfare state, and taxations issues. There are no doubt HUNDREDS of Democrats who are liberal on these issues. But you never hear of them. Why? Because the media is an instrument of wealth and corporate power! Duh!

That is why I pay no mind to anything the media has to say about political wrangling. It's all a rigged game.....

[sandnsea]

36. They have to run

The ones who are running are the ones who are running. None of them are Kucinich liberals. The media has nothing to do with it.

So what does that mean to you and those with your views? You won't have your dream liberal DNC chair. Then what? The problem, as I see it, with starting from a position of demands is what happens when those demands aren't met.

No candidate is liberal enough for you. Do you go to the Greens? If there were a candidate liberal enough for you, conservative Dems would go to the Republicans. It's absolutely hysterical to me that the same people who want to move left also get mad because we don't show up in the south or midwest. Do you think Schweitzer was begging Kerry to come to Montana??? Ha. No, he was saying for chrissake STAY AWAY!! I saw Ken Salazar with Kerry once, towards the end of the campaign. I don't recall his brother even being at that event, but it's possible I missed him.

If we don't get somebody as DNC chair who understands this basic truth, we can forget rebuilding the Democratic Party at all. I want somebody who will not back down on Democratic values, but who also understands the dynamics of running in the south and midwest. Because they've done it. Which to me means Frost or Webb. The Democratic platform will be shaped by the people, of all 50 states, whether lefties like it or not.

[Vektor]

20. Genius, can you tell me about NAFTA....

That's one issue I know very little about. I mean I know what it stands for, but other than that...I kind of don't know the whole story about why it is opposed.

[genius]

48. North American Free Trade Agreement. It's a disaster.

Under NAFTA, governments can be sued for enforcing their own environmental laws. There is a dangerous gas additive that was leaking from the gas pumps into California's ground water and poisoning people. California tried to get rid of it and was told that if they followed through with plans to eliminate it, they would be sued by the Canadian firm manufacturing it. So California had to back down. It's that way will all our environmental laws that interfere with foreign corporations. Under NAFTA, the United States has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs. The whole thing is a mess. The WTO is similar in that it makes governments subservient to corporations. They can't enforce their environmental laws or labor laws without fear of a lawsuit.

[eg101]

19. LOL!

What is this? The National Journal? Would it be possible to discuss the reasons why you support a particular candidate rather than relying on labels like who is the most "liberal"?

Ha ha! Now you're catching on....

Aint it a joke, though?! As though the media would ever let a real liberal be the spokes person for the Dem party!

[blondeatlast]

26. Thanks for a thoughtful reply! We need to move away from labels at DU

and start concentrating ideas.

[Liberty Belle]

5. So far everyone I've heard would be happy with Dean.

I've talked with hundreds of Democrats at least and this is the unanimous consensus. What does it take for the DNC to get the message?

[genius]

6. Much of that is because we keep hearing about the DLC people.

If there is a geniuine liberal running against him and that becomes known, that will make a difference.

[Liberty Belle]

11. I don't think there is, at least not one who is a forceful communicator.

I've seen a few posts about the CSpan show tonight featuring the DNC chair candidates, and no one seemed impressed by any of them.

I'd take the Dean scream anyday over the mealy-mouthed sniveling bunch heading up our party these days.

[imenja]

9. their everyone lives in Washington

The Dean candidacy represents a division between the base and the leadership. DC seems to be afraid of Dean as DNC leader, though I'm not entirely sure why. Is it because they are afraid of what the media will say or because he might challenge their rule as well?
The only argument that holds any sway with me is that it might be useful to have someone with a feel for the middle or the South of the country, but Dean certainly doesn't want to abandon those areas like Kerry did. I'm not sure how successful he would be at directing strategy toward those voters, but he sure beats Roemer who reminds me, perhaps unfairly, a bit of McAuliffe.

[marcologico]

12. Roemer was on the 9/11 commission so that's probably why they picked him

but that report was a worthless whitewash so I hope he doesn't get it. Dean I personally detest but he's a crafty son of a bitch and good at raising money so I think he'd be a good party chair. But I'm guessing Pelosi and Reid will block him.

[imenja]

13. Dean vs. et al

Why do you detest Dean? Whom do you favor? Roemer said Pelosi asked him to run.

[marcologico]

17. Dean is conducting a very sneaky smear campaign against Kerry

that I wasn't aware of until I started posting here, so I don't know how long it's been going on, but I'm guessing ever since he got taken out in Iowa, presumably to keep Kerry from winning so as to clear a path for a Dean re-run in '08.

Nothing illegal, just manipulative and irresponsible. In fact the more I think about it the more I hope he DOESN'T get the chair although he was originally my first choice. I don't have a second choice yet.

[tkmorris]

18. Not sure what you are referring to there

During the Democratic primaries Dean took issue with Kerry repeatedly, on a number of issues, primary among them his IWR vote. There is much evidence to suggest that Kerry's people engaged in a number of behind the scenes tactics to undermine Dean's campaign, but everything that Dean did to Kerry was aboveboard and in the open. Perhaps some felt it was too divisive, and there might be an argument to be made there, but at least he said what he thought right out in front of everyone.

Once Dean withdrew from the campaign, he urged support throughout his organization for whoever the Dem candidate was to be, against the wishes of a fanatical but sizable contigent of his supporters who still felt that it should be Dean or no one. When Kerry emerged as the victor he strongly supported him in the campaign against Bush, changing his tune to reflect why he felt Kerry was better than Bush even when others tried to bait him into speaking against Kerry as he had during the primary.

BTW, if Dean gets the chair it is highly unlikely he'll run in '08. He's flat out stated that he would not if he held that post, and even if you distrust that it isn't terribly practical. I think some anti-Dean folks have been filling your head with nonsense to be frank.

[imenja]

22. How?

I haven't observed anything like that. Quite the contrary. From what I could tell, Dean did everything he could to help Kerry win.

[janx]

30. A "sneaky smear campaign against Kerry" ??

Please, elaborate! Where is your evidence?

[madfloridian]

37. I think you need to be very careful with accusations.

That is the kind of thing you need to be cautious about. We work very closely with DFA, and we did with the Dean campaign. Dean has swallowed all pride since February, and he has never criticized Kerry. He worked hard for him. As did we.

This is a dangerous precedent to set, accusing a fellow Democrat of such things.

[PATRICK]

38. And Dean would suggest who?

Although that might hurt his choice's standing among the pissant DLC crowd, Dean would probably like to stay out of the confines of the Chair. For all the heat Dean has NOT made a counter proposal to the dismaying list being proposed by the roadkill warrior. Someone keeps being afraid Dean will fight for the chair and THEY make all the mean moves accordingly, but with typically horrible choices.

Who would Dean choose?

[janx]

41. I'm having a hard time understanding your post.

What is the dismaying list, and who or what is the roadkill warrior?

?

[marcologico]

40. Don't get me started. n/t

[blondeatlast]

27. Dean is the only one I know much about.

I wouldn't know a thing about any of the others if it wasn't for the more elevated discussions at Daily Kos.

Dean isn't really our only choice, but I know that most DUers have no idea about the others.

I suspect we're in for the primary "fun" again.

And that's not to say I oppose Dean, it's just that his backers are very vocal on DU, less so on Daily Kos.

[Geek_Girl]

39. That's what I'm wondering

What is wrong with Dean? Why does the current democratic leadership dislike dean? He is perfect for the job.

[eg101]

47. dean is not OK with me

Dean is a conservative, when it comes to the welfare state and progressive taxation. He dislikes the political left.

He said so. He said he wants to raise the Social Security retirement age to 70.

Here, read about it:
www.sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/1668089.php

[Carolab]

15. Dean. Hands down.

The man who gave the party back its backbone?

Mr. Grassroots?

C'MON! Who else could it be?

The rest of them are unacceptable. When about 300 of us progressives met with our state Democratic party chair last month, we were asked what we wanted in a DNC chair. Person after person got up and talked and the only person who was actually NAMED in the entire time was Dean. A show of hands for each of the candidates at the end showed Dean won. Hands down.

[d_b]

16. I dunno about liberal

Mr. Webb seems like a passionate individual. Dean kicked butt as usual.

[RogueTrooper]

21. I disagree with your frame genius

I don't think it is about the who is the most liberal; but who will be the best for liberals.

[blondeatlast]

28. Yep. Who will listen to the party membership, not just those

who will be voting for him/her.

Who is open to new ideas, who doesn't discount DU as a source of ideas, who knows how to balance delicate dilemmas (getting the South without abandoning our commitment to civil rights for all, etc)?

That's what I want to see.

[eg101]

24. There are no liberal candidates being promoted by the media

The media never gives economic liberals (as opposed to social liberals) much substantial mention. Dean is certainly no liberal when it comes to welfare state or trade issues. He has said so himself (his past viewpoints have come back to haunt him).

I really couldn't care less who the media is promoting for the DNC chair.

Here's my advice: Turn off the fuckin' TV. Stop reading the propaganda newspapers. Now start figuring how to communicate with masses of Americans about ideas that do not get talked about in the media. How about that?

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Welcome to DU :^)

----------------------------------------------------------
Save this nation one town, county, and state at a time!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[mandyky]

25. Organization and common sense skills are more important than

how liberal they are. If we don't run 50 state, bottom up campaigns we'll continue losing. We have to win local and state elections as well as national elections. It doesn't matter how liberal the chair is, since they aren't the candidates. In some areas we'll win with conservative Dems, in others moderates, etc.

[NYCGirl]

33. Exactly right. NT

[Stinky The Clown]

31. Who cares who is the most liberal? The question ought to be

who will give the party back to the people and run a national party with candidates that meet local criteria in every race.

I think that is Howard Dean. The party chair's stand on issues matters less than a given candidate's stand on issues. I very much like the idea of a known entity (Dean) from outside the Beltway.

We need to win. And we won't win running an uberleft liberal against Tom Delay, while me may well win with an uberleft liberal in, say Massachusetts. The party chair's job is to support *all* candidates. I believe Howard Dean can do that.

[Nordmadr]

35. How about someone that

won't feed us anymore bs? Don't hear anyone talking about the growing energy crisis (which includes this current war for oil), the environment, the housing market bubble, the tanking dollar, and much more.

Oh, wait, I know why, because those are real issues, and on top of that, they are mostly bad news, and you don't get elected with bad news. Move along, nothing to see here...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

I think my frustration level is about to pop my head off my shoulders.

[XemaSab]

46. I began to support Dean

because he was the only candidate I heard state that our energy policy, our environmental policy, and our foreign policy should be unified, because it was all the same issue.

Holy smokes!

A politician who can tie it together and see the big picture!

[janx]

44. While that's true, I can understand why some people want

at least a little knowledge of a DNC candidate's ideology. Look at Roemer, for instance. ;-)

The assumption, correct or not, is that the DNC chair might be able to influence others in the party.

[Leilani]

42. How about who will be most effective at the job?

Applying litmus tests will get you nowhere.

[NYCGirl]

43. That's about the best idea I've seen on this thread. NT

[messiah]

45. Conservative democrats as far as the eye can see

You wont have a liberal as chair read this thread most democrats like that conservatives run their party. There is no such thing as "issues", issues mean "label" to a lot of people in this thread and on this board. If this forum is the activist base of the democratic party then things will just go downhill from here.