"Screw you, America." This is FUNNY!

[GOPBasher]

Read this.

A lot of us effete Easterners want to know: what the fuck is wrong with you?! You voted against your self-interest at every turn (you dumb-asses in South Dakota deserve special credit for voting out one of the most powerful Democrats in the Senate) and re-elected an ignorant cowboy who can’t be trusted to remember a lunch order, never mind run a country. What in the name of God ...?! Wait, it was in the name of God, wasn’t it? Rendered weak and ignorant by a spoon-fed climate of fear, you slack-jawed inbred flatlanders have sought refuge in the traditional twin towers of mindlessness — jingoistic patriotism and fundamentalist religion. God’s on your side. Like hell. Jesus loves us, dammit.

Okay, you want God? Let’s talk about God. Your religion is bogus. Fundamentalism, the facile belief in the unexplained and un-researched, is something you born-agains (couldn’t get it right the first time, huh?) share with Al Qaeda, whose ideologues doggedly adhere to religious misinterpretations every bit as silly and dangerous as yours. Just like you, Muslim fundamentalists long to impose an unrealistic and intolerant pseudo-Calvinist morality on the world. In fact, America’s religious right has so much in common with the Shiah, it’s a wonder you guys don’t invite them to join the Rotary. Born-againsters look for the face of Christ in the wallpaper; fundamentalist Muslims hallucinate the voice of the 12th Imam; but aside from that (and extremely divergent attitudes toward pork), you both hate the same stuff — homosexuality, pacifism, Jews, education, uppity women, enlightenment, short skirts, gangsta rap, tattoos, infidels ... (They also share your love of super-lethal weaponry.)

Well, sorry to burst your holy bubble, Jesus freaks, but God did not create the world in seven days; that’s just ignorant. Like a lot of stuff in the Bible, it didn’t happen. And Moses looked more like Jeff Goldblum than like Charlton Heston. Jesus didn’t hunt; he fished. Jesus wouldn’t want you (or anyone else) to have an assault rifle. What would Jesus do if he met you? He’d ask you to stop ruining his hard-won good reputation. (Y’know the guy died to redeem your sorry ass; you might at least show a little respect for what he was really about.)

More: http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/other_stories/multi2/documents/04258175.asp

[Guaranteed]

1. Would have been better if he hadn't let it devolve into

an argument over religion.

First paragraph was great, though.

[GOPBasher]

2. He just makes fun of raging fundamentalists.

I don't see a problem with that, personally.

[Guaranteed]

3. Religion is beside the point.

Religion is religion, not politics.

If he wants to say "Keep your fucking religion out of our government and schools," then that's what he should say. Criticizing them for having specific religious beliefs, though, is nothing but a distraction.

That's what they want, anyway. The GOP wants us arguing about stupid theological shit while they steal billions upon billions of dollars from us.

That opening paragraph you put up was a GREAT start- he could have gone into all the different ways we're being stolen from. But he just attacked their belief in God (with some good side points), for the most part. Didn't really help much.

[Union Thug]

4. In Bush's America, religion has become a valid target for political debate

...THEY forced their infantile fantasies into the public debate, they'd better be able to take the heat.

[Guaranteed]

8. I'm not saying it's not a valid target.

Hell, you can attack someone over any subject you want to in politics- even sex. Especially sex.

But attacking their actual religion will not help anything. It's not going to change anyone's mind, and in doing so you're implicitly surrendering that in the event that their religion is "correct," they can go ahead and inject it into our government. You're also alienating them when you attack such a "fundamental" belief of theirs.

The nature of their religion is of no importance. It's just a distraction. Instead, they need to be shown how religion itself is being used AGAINST them- how they're being fooled, and WHY the Bush administration would do that. Forget arguing the details of it. They don't matter.

[GOPBasher]

14. I agree with what you're saying.

I don't care if they believe the world and universe are 6000 years old and were created in six days. I do, however, have a big problem with teaching that in school.

[renaissanceguy]

118. Mind you

he is speaking not as a private citizen, defending his own beliefs by refuting a fundamentalist belief system. We need this debate in this country. Otherwise, the fundies will continue to keep talking and influencing government. They should be challenged on their beliefs, as we all should. There's nothing wrong with that.

At the same time, of course we should say, "OK, we can talk about this, but not in the context of government." What I mean by this is, while we should talk about these views, what we shouldn't do is talk about them in political terms.
http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.16472020

[Lurker321]

7. "Your religion is bogus"

is a great outreach tool, isn't it?

Seriously, you think telling people that their religion is "bogus" will bring even one of them over to our side? Putting aside the question of whether it is really "bogus" or not, how exactly does that statement help matters?

[GOPBasher]

13. It doesn't help us win.

Right now, it seems nothing is helping us win, however. So, it really doesn't matter. The article does make me feel better, though. By the way, as a Christian, I don't get offended at anything he said. He's making fun of raging fundamentalists who think the world and universe are six thousand years old and were created in six days. It doesn't matter that they think that; teaching it is school is what I have a problem with.

[mattclearing]

19. Honestly, I have to say this is a fine statement.

If all else fails, why not call a spade a spade? Do we really want the votes of evangelicals or fundamentalists? Of course not.

We should be seeking to identify the rest of the Republican Party and agenda with these people.

Then we can write articles like this, where every person who sees the truth of the situation will rightly note that these people are crazy and unworthy of the power being conferred on their constituency.

These people are beyond help.

The people who aren't beyond help are the ones who rightly see the current situation, with weak Democrats incapable of articulating a true progressive agenda, and Republicans beholden to corporations and religious nutbars, and try to make a decision between fake but not crazy and crazy but not fake; essentially a choice between bad and worse.

[demwing]

30. Do we really want the votes of evangelicals or fundamentalists?

I want everybody's vote.

[mattclearing]

34. I have a sign for you: KKK for Demwing '08.

Have fun!

[demwing]

35. So, you equate the KKK to evangelicals?

Got it. Thanks for revealing that about yourself.

I have a better idea. How about a Democratic party for all of America, not just the ones that make happy, smiling photo ops?

I'll tell you what, If I ran for office, my platform would be progressive, inclusive, populist, and based on civil liberties and Democratic principles.

If, running on such a platform, I was to somehow attract the vote of the KKK, I would be shocked. But I would take the opportunity to thank them for those votes, and explain to the rest of the public that I didn't just give lip service to inclusiviness and diversity. That my platform had theability to reach out and appeal to all people, because it touched on the most basic priorities that Americans share.

Laugh or mock me all you like. I prefer my way to yours.

[mattclearing]

37. No, but you're saying you want the vote of everyone.

Or are you now starting to think about that response?

Evangelicals are just like everyone else...a mixed bag. Some might be open to progressive politics. Others not.

But you can't try to appeal to everyone. You will lose, and you will stand for nothing.

[demwing]

39. You don't have to be all things to all people

You just have to be one thing to all Americans - a leader.

I don't believe you becoime a leader by insulting all the evangelicals, regardless if you go back and try to spin it by saying that they are a "mixed bag."

[mattclearing]

41. I never equated Evangelicals to the KKK. You did.

You said you wanted the vote of everyone. That is obviously a flawed strategy. Whatever it would take to turn evangelical Christians into a Democratic voting bloc, I imagine it would be extreme and unpleasant.

I suggested identifying the Republican Party with its less mainstream constituent groups, among them evangelicals.

When you said you wanted the vote of everyone, I broke out the KKK, because the support of some groups is obviously more of a hindrance than a help. You don't want the help of everyone.

And as for a leader, I don't believe you lead by legitimizing fringe groups who are unlikely to agree with you or your basic principles.

You lead by exposing their flawed logic as it relates to your opponent and point to a more logical and desirable approach. And maybe you take some open-minded voters with you for your trouble.

[demwing]

42. You can imagine what you will

I believe you lead by showing people what they have in common, and uniting them in that direction.

This is no different than when Dean said he wanted to be the President of guys with gun racks and southern flags in their pickup trucks.

YOU think it means identifying yourself with the core values of fringe groups. I don't. I think it means having a philosophy that is so basic to human need that everyone can relate.

[mattclearing]

43. Appealing to basic need so that everyone can relate only goes so far.

Eventually you have to discuss policy issues. Then you have to deal with constituencies.

As a Dean supporter, I know what he was talking about, and you aren't wrong when you say that.

At the same time, I'm sure you and Dean both know that while those with gun racks and confederate flags need affordable health care too, chances are they aren't going to vote for affordable health care if it comes from a fiscally conservative moderate Democrat from New England who opposed the Iraq War and openly opposes President Bush.

A better strategy would be to point out that these people vote against their interests, and invite them to vote in their interests. When they unsurprisingly fail to do so, use it to re-inforce your stance while they continue to suffer inadequate healthcare.

[demwing]

45. Which is a world of difference from what was said earlier

which is that the Evangelicals are crazy and beyond help.

[mattclearing]

46. Hey, maybe I went a little overboard.

Without painting all evangelicals with one big nasty brush, I am of the opinion that the evangelical movement has some serious problems in terms of logic and emphasis, and I think it is to the advantage of the Democratic Party to link the Republican Party at large with them.

That said, it was probably wrong for me to imply that they are all crazy.

I'm sure there are perfectly wonderful and upstanding people who just happen to be evangelical Christians.

Joe Gibbs comes to mind.

But yeah, I was in the wrong there. Thanks for calling me on it.

O8)

[demwing]

61. Peace /nt

[itzamirakul]

109. Accepting and thanking the KKK tells a lot

about you. Of course, you know, when people vote for you, they usually want something in return...like perhaps your support in some if not all of their policies, issues and beliefs.

Would you support a reinstatement of segregation? Or lynching?

That's what you would get with the KKK.

.

[Skittles]

103. "our side"

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[renaissanceguy]

119. They won't be on our side.

If they change their beliefs, it will be on their own accord.

We all have the right to speak our beliefs.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.16472020

[progressoid]

5. Read the whole thing - it's a doozie

It's quite a rant - but mostly accurate. I think I'll email it to a couple "friends".

[RubyCat]

6. That felt good.

[mtnsnake]

9. Best thing I've read in weeks. The entire article, both pages, are

worth reading, too. Thanks for sharing it!

[ChiciB1]

68. I Agree With You!!

Even though I've defended Kerry since the election and have been a HUGE supporter of his from back in the 70's, I feel doubts oozing around me. Why do I feel like a traitor?

What Do We Do??? We has and re-hash EVERYTHING, but we're getting NOWHERE! Even when Boxer stood with Conyers, there were threads pointing out Boxer's DLC leanings!

It was a GREAT hard hitting article, but what are WE getting from it?? Will the REST of the MEDIA actually start doing their job as The Fourth Estate???

I Wonder, I Wish!

[KittyWampus]

10. Nothing Like Reducing Others To Sterotypes & Name Calling

sorry, imo this isn't funny OR insightful OR helpful.

[Guaranteed]

11. I think the anger, and even a lot of the name calling, was dead-on.

The ridicule is exactly what we need.

But his topic choice was way off.

He should just re-write it and be more politically and psychologically focused.

[KittyWampus]

23. BGL, I Agree About Your Comments About Writers Focus.

but not with the method of name calling.

Just as I agreed with Dean when he made the same point about voting against economic interests but thought his METHOD of expression sucked pretty bad.

Further, it's not just about people voting against their economic interests and their own spiritual beliefs...

It's about the Left's appalling ability to phrase these thoughts in a way that people around this country can grasp.

[GOPBasher]

12. That's all they ever do to us.

Have you not heard any of these: tree-hugger, socialist, communist, big-government, pinko, pot-smoker, bleeding heart, godless, Satanic, welfare queen, Christian-hater, etc. The list goes on and on and on.

[unpossibles]

15. I hear those from my family.... n/t

[KittyWampus]

20. Oh, "The Johnny Jumped Off The Brooklyn Bridge So I Should To"

argument.

Impressive.

So we're pretty much left with two groups of chimps hurling feces at each other.

Not the way to win friends and INFLUENCE PEOPLE.

[GOPBasher]

25. I'm not trying to win friends and influence people;

I'm trying to laugh with the converted and make myself feel better. By the way, the reason the Right keeps winning is because they're beating us in the battle of rhetoric. They have about 45% of the electorate convinced that we're a bunce of socialists and communists who want to kill Christian babies because we hate Jesus. Then, they just have to get another 5% to win the election.

[Cats Against Frist]

79. "Tu quoque" fallacy

"But you do it, too!"

In this case, I agree with the logically flawed argument. I think there needs to be ridicule and vitriol aimed at the republican elite and the snake-oil salesmen of the religious right, BUT, I agree with Bull Goose Loony that insulting a person's religion is not away to convince them. I both agree with a person's right to think and speak ridicule about a religion, as I believe the religious should have a right to believe and speak whatever they want -- but the middle ground should be neutral -- and THAT'S what we need to insult: big government, right-wing authoritarian colonialists who want to manipulate their dull populace for power gain, masquerading as "small govenment" devotees and liberty lovers, not Christians, in general. Ridicule the hypocrisy, not the actual belief.

[faithfulcitizen]

27. agreed cryingshame, not helpful nt

[Laurab]

16. He said "Jesus loves US" (caps mine)

He's not bashing anyone except the fundies who believe anything shrubco tells them to believe, really. Not that they'd ever read an article like that, anyway - they'll only be offended if someone tells them they should be. The guy is angry, and I don't blame him. I don't think it's funny though. Maybe it would be if it weren't so true.

[GOPBasher]

17. "they'll only be offended if someone tells them they should be" LOL!

I like that statement. :-)

[Laurab]

18. Well, yeah, and I'm not gonna tell them, either :-) NT

[flobee1kenobi]

21. is a great outreach tool, isn't it?

Do we really want them on our side?
Have they even considered trying to listen to a diffrent opinion?
Can you change a mind that is closed?
should we even try?

[moggie12]

22. Crap like this is why we keep losing elections

Can you please exercise a little judgment and responsibility "GOPBasher"? Can you please stop with the Christian-bashing? I want to start winning some elections and this garbage doesn't help.

It frustrates me that crap like this gets a lot of responses on DU. No wonder the MSM is a vast wasteland. DU seems to operate on the same principle: The more inflammatory/sensational the post, the more traffic it gets.

Meanwhile, somebody goes to the time and trouble of posting something important on DU and it gets 3 responses (see the post called "Fire the Consultants" in this same "politics" category. In my opinion, GOPBasher, our time would be better spent on the real causes of our continued electoral defeats. Why don't you give it a "kick", GopBasher, to atone for your boorish behavior.

Sorry, GOPBasher, don't mean to sound cranky, but I am: It pisses me off that we keep losing elections when we don't have to.

[Modem Butterfly]

24. Wouldn't want to anger the people who think it's a sin to vote DEM

Maybe if we're just patient and quiet and nice they'll someday change their minds about us.

[moggie12]

26. But making fun of them is not a good strategy

Yes, there's a core of religious zealots and fanatics out there who promote hateful thinking (e.g., like you said, "voting Dem is a sin"). My problem with Christian-bashing is this:

1) The broad-stroke, ugly kind -- as just done by GOPBasher -- lumps all Christians into the same camp. Doing this "confirms" for Christians who might be more open-minded that what they're hearing from the "Hate" side is true -- especially when the Christian-bashing occurs on a site called "Democratic Underground"

2) The Christian-bashing plays right into the hands of Rove and the RW. They whip up the fundamentalist base and then we walk right into the trap, in our anger and frustration further inflamming the fundies. Please I don't want to help Karl and the RW!

[Modem Butterfly]

32. We're talking about people who don't consider us fully human

Take a gander at some of their websites. These are not people who are going to join hands with us and sing Kum-by-ya. I say we turn it around and create our own "Us vs. Them" conflict. Let THEM be marginalized for once. And as Lenny Bruce used to say, "If I offended any of you tonight, I want to say sincerely, 'You needed it,'"

[moggie12]

44. I've got no problem pointing out the hypocrisy

In fact, I think we should. That piece would've been very strong if had it been written as a straight-out denunciation of the anti-Christian beliefs of SOME fundamentalists. My problem with it is that it lumps all "born-agains" into the same boat. Indeed, it makes fun of ALL "born-agains" regardless of what they really think(e.g., the joke in there that went something like, "What? couldn't get it right the first time??)

I lived in two Red States (Roanoke, Virgina for five years, Prospect, Kentucky for three). Yes, I did run into several stereotypical hate-spewing "allegedly Christian" nuts (the homophobic strain is the one that always amuses me -- hmm, methinks they doth protest too much perhaps??).

Many born-agains, however, were wonderful people, not subscribing to the hateful beliefs of the nuts. My born-again neighbors down the street in VA had a gay son who they loved and fully "accepted". In Kentucky, an openly-lesbian couple lived across the street and were treated not just with respect, but friendliness (nope, no spray-painting of their house by the local born-again zealots, how about that?)

So, what I'm saying is, an "Us vs. Them" mentality isn't a good one to have. Not all the "Thems" are like the websites run by whackos. And marginalizing "Them" isn't a good strategy, either. "They" are a fast-growing segment of the population -- I think I saw one exit poll that showed 40+% of respondents identified themselves as "born-agains.

One last thought: Lenny Bruce didn't need to win elections.

[Modem Butterfly]

49. If they're so open-minded, then they won't be offended will they?

But let the writer speak for himself. He says it better than I can:

In its own well-intentioned way, liberalism is, when you think about it, almost as big a problem as fundamentalism is. See, as much as I disagree with you and am disgusted by the shallow and pathetic pawns you’ve become, I respect your potential. That’s why liberal Democrats can’t bring themselves to do what the Republicans do so well — cynically lie to you for selfish gain. (Do you really think Kerry would have banned the Bible?) We nice people actually expected reasoned arguments, logic, and incontrovertible evidence to convince you that Kerry was the better candidate. Turns out that the GOP’s double whammy of fear and loathing is a more powerful vote-getting tool.

Maybe these people want to be lied to. Maybe it's part of their religious conditioning.

[Debs]

40. If its not a good strategy

Why does the right keep using it. I wish, oh how I wish that reasonable and intellectual debate on the issues had real relevance. We are past that, I tried it for 20 years. If it were such a losing strategy why doesnt the right attack the Limbaughs, Coulters, Hannities, Savages, and Booooores of the world for using it. The fact is ridicule IS effective, people dont like to be laughed at. If it makes them examine the assumptions that have made them the object of ridicule all the better. I do agree with Bullgooselooney, that the ridiculing them for their religious beliefs is counterproductive since by its nature faith is unrelated to factual evidence. The rest of it we can back up, with good arguements. As for ridiculing them, since thats what they do to us quite effectivly I say I prefer the intellectual debates but the way things are now if they want to take the arguements down into the mud I will follow them there.

[moggie12]

47. "Bullgooseloony's" point was excellent

Like you mentioned, BGL's post #3 made excellent points. Don't attack beliefs, instead stand up and say religious right shouldn't seek to impose them on others. Also, as BGL points out, RW is manipulating the religious folks, using "value" issues to draw votes. The last thing we should do, in my opinion, is ridicule the "born-agains" for their religious beliefs. It plays right into the RW's and Karl's hands (I've got another post somewhere on here that tries to make this point so I won't go into the whole thing again).

Me personally, I wish Sen. Kerry had taken on the "values" issue directly during the campaign. As it was, he raised it in a wimpy, non-direct way with that stupid, off-handed, "Dick's daughter is a lesbian" remark. If he was gonna do that, I wish he'd just gone ahead and dropped the whole load, challenging the hypocritical "anti-gay hatred" of people who claim they live by the rules, "Love thy neighbor as you would love yourself" and "Do unto others".

[calimary]

52. "I wish he'd just gone ahead and dropped the whole load..." Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

During the debate, both Kerry's AND Edwards', I longed to hear one of them truly call these hypocrites out.

I can't help but wonder (and savor, she said, wickedly...) what the reaction would have been if - when the matter of cheney's daughter came up, and both Kerry and Edwards were such gentlemen (which truly was lovely), if one of them could have just said...

Well, after expressing such kind, gracious and nonjudgmental support for cheney in his love for his daughter and respect for who his daughter genuinely is, imagine if Kerry or Edwards had said something to the effect of "what is really a shame about all this, and what makes my heart break, is how you, mr. cheney, aren't even allowed to stand on stage at your own convention, with your daughter by your side. When you and mr. bush accepted your party's nomination, it was just really sad to see that your own daughter wasn't allowed to share that moment with you and mrs. cheney, and take her rightful place up on that stage with her family where she belonged - all because some people might actually be offended by who she is. I think it's a real shame, and frankly, an insult to you - that some of your advisors and colleagues think your precious daughter, whom you love, has to be treated as a second-class citizen because somebody might be offended by something that's really none of their business. I felt bad for you and mrs. cheney. I wish that evening could have turned out differently for you AND your ENTIRE family, so they ALL could have shared your great moment in the sun."

I would have liked to have seen that. A LOT.

[moggie12]

64. Man, that was GREAT!!

What I great way that would've been to say that! I never even realized Dick's daughter wasn't up on stage at the GOP convention!! (You should be a Dem speechwriter, by the way -- you're way better than Bob Shrum...) Reading what you wrote makes me even madder at the whoosies that ran Kerry's campaign.

[Cats Against Frist]

82. Also, we have to be careful with the rural/urban divide

I know plenty of Democrats in the "stix" who even get riled up when their more liberal, urban counterparts start trashing the bucolic. There are a lot of people that I know that the only two things keeping them from being a Republican is their union card and the fact that they believe the Republicans are "fat cats," (with which, I, of course, agree).

When I set off the rural/urban culture war with my mother -- even something as innocent as: "it ain't food unless there's something fried or covered in gravy on it," gets her ire up -- and this was BEFORE I moved to Seattle, when I still lived in a town pop. 100,000 to her 5,000.

I could see it on her face -- part of the reason is that the people in the "Heartland" are mixed up on who the "elite" really are -- on one hand, it's the GOP fat cats, but on the other, it is limousine liberals, Hollywood and the well-educated and urban that seem "elite" to them, as well. Mostly because almost everyone that I know who is liberal, and lives in a big city, came from somewhere rural.

I'm sure, as in my own family, that the "You think you're better than me because you won't shop at Wal-Mart" thing has taken place in a lot of families, or have been gabbed about, over the phone, or at LouBob's: "When she comes to visit, she brings her own coffee."

And my mother is a flaming Democrat, and is for gay marriage, and hates rich people -- but if I tell her that I don't eat the "trash" at McDonald's, or make fun of her for ordering a hamburger at a Mexican restaurant, it's like I've punched a hole in her soul. Seriously.

Same with a number of my relatives. I've heard them trash Ph.D.s by saying, "they think they're so smart, but they can't even change a lightbulb," which, in psych speak, translates directly into: "I feel bad and powerless because I may not be as educated as someone else, and in this society, which stresses always being the best, this makes me feel like a loser, so I'll just find a way to minimize their success and play up my own smarts."

It's called a defense. And most conservatives and rural people, like alcoholics, tend to have fairly developed defenses. This is anecdotal, but I spent 17 years in the "Heartland," and visit them about four times a year.

If it weren't sheer fear of inferiority, why would they feel the need to outright trash vegetarians, sushi and espresso? I mean, how the fuck does that figure into politics?

[GOPBasher]

56. Moggie, a few things.

I see what you're saying. But first of all, this thing is a joke. Furthermore, with all the things the RW says about us, I have a hard time being nice in return. If you can, you're a better person than I am. I'm so sick of their stupid, idiotic steriotypes that they perpetuate among the populace about us: godless, socialist, Christian-haters, Satanic liberals who want to destroy Christianity (why because we want to teach science in science class?). They say all that shit about us, and you know what? It works!!! That's right! Look at why Bush won this election: "moral values." I suppose getting solidiers and innocent civilians killed are "good morals" now. But that's how they get their huge base of evangelical voters to vote against us. How the fuck am I supposed to react? They sprout out a bunch of lies and get elected; why can't I?

[moggie12]

62. Just not in a "joking" mood these days

First, thanks for responding in such a reasoned way (after re-reading what I'd posted, I decided I sounded rather harsh and cranky, so thanks for ignoring that and focusing on my points). Okay, yep, you're absolutely right, the garbage the fundamentalist extremists spew is horrendous. I just don't think spewing back at them is effective. First, it ends up sounding like we're attacking all fundamentalists: Like you said, they stereotype us, but I think we shouldn't "rise to the bait". That's just what these people want: attention and more fodder for their cannons. Hurling insults back at them makes them stronger among their base, not weaker, and what's worse, may end up insulting/alienating non-nutty, non-hate-spewing Christians (there are various dogmatic factions among evangelical Christians). When we "attack" the hate-spewers I want to take the "high road" pointing out their ugliness, hypocrisy, and LACK OF CHRISTIAN VALUES. I'm sorry, I just can't appreciate "jokes" about fundamentalists, some of whom are very nice people despite some beliefs that I personally think are cuckoo (I lived down South for awhile). I think it does more harm than good. I know it's enormously frustrating. Like you said, "they sprout a bunch of lies and get elected" -- this galls me no end, too. I believe some of this is being consciously manipulated by the Bush wing of the GOP -- in my opinion at least, us taking the bait and flailing back angrily at the hate-spewers just plays into Karl's hands. It's good for Karl and others to have Americans attacking each other on religion and values issues -- that way we won't notice they're robbing the national piggy bank and destroying everything that made this country great. (Up on my soapbox again, I'll get down now.) Anyway, thanks again for listening and not smacking me down for my tone in my first post..

[GOPBasher]

63. You're probably right.

I think I'm just looking for "therapy" these days. Things like that just make me "feel" good, but I know they're dumb steriotypes and not very true. You're probably right that it does more harm than good.

[moggie12]

65. Hey, you're not supposed to do that!

You're supposed to keep arguing and getting madder and madder at people who hold different viewpoints! This is DU! What's the point of coming on here if it's not going to be an echo-chamber and we don't reflexively defend our viewpoint no matter what??!!

No, no, just kidding. Since you were honest, I'll be honest. It's not like I didn't laugh several times when I read that thing -- it's just (well, never mind, you already know my concerns...)

I know what you mean about "needing therapy". What's going on these days is crazy -- I feel like I'm hallucinating sometimes when I watch the news.

[ChiciB1]

69. Bush May Be In The WH

but he DIDN'T WIN!!! I know many think he won, but I don't! And I will never put President in front of his wacky name!

[FubarFly]

78. Talking about "broad-strokes"...

If one guy writes a sentiment, it's his opinion. He's entitled to it. Some of us will appreciate his style and some of us won't. DO you think that any of our politicians running for office would publicly agree with that sentiment? Of course not. The opinion of one individual doesn't speak for the entire left. Nor does it have anything to do with the platform of the Democratic party. Trying to shut down free speech because you are afraid of reprisal feeds into the propagandists warped designs.

Why do so many Democrats spend so much time worrying about what others think about them?

The type of fearfulness you espouse is exactly what helps Rove and the RW. No one should be afraid to speak their mind. The simple trick to learn is how to distance yourself from opinions your disagree with, while still supporting people's right to say it. It's far better to get people to look at Democrats as individuals, than to react and try to control the manner and degree in which a stereotype spreads.

[rman]

111. it's kindof hard to take m serious

god forbid we should "further inflame the fundies", rather then resist them we should appease them, that way we'll surely win...

[GOPBasher]

55. Thank you.

With all the shit these people keep saying about us, it's a wonder so many people are afraid of offending them.

[CatWoman]

28. you know, I was bought up in a "christian" household

a bigger bunch of fucking lying, greedy hypocrites never existed.

Ignoring the fact that on the whole they are a bunch of phoney assholes is just as irresponsible as said assholes trying to coopt Jesus and use him as rationality for their own hypocritial agendas.

[KittyWampus]

29. Your Family Isn't Indicative Of The Christian Population In The U.S.

just cause your early home life was traumatic it isn't fair to project it outwards onto others.

One of my greatest frustrations is that Progressive Spiritual Leaders and Brethren don't speak up more loudly to counteract the cranks.

I guess cause the Religious Left doesn't speak up loudly enough it leaves an opening for good people such as yourself to think they don't exist or are in the minority.

I am sorry your family were cranks... mine is too.

[CatWoman]

31. my family is indicative of the black "christians"

who are so firmly anti-gay.

Did you know that there was a march here, led by Martin Luther King's own daughter, opposing gay rights?

[KittyWampus]

33. No, Isn't That Kind Of Antithetical To What Her Father Stood For?

And by the by, most of my black friends are in my Kabbalistic Study Group.

The Chapter I belong to (meets in NYC) is about half black.

They are all very liberal and tolerant.

I tried to talk sense into my Mom about Gay Rights... two very, very close family friends are a gay couple. She doesn't see it though.


Guess for me, it's just my limited experience gotten through seeking out like minded people.

After having such a rough childhood, I just can't stand being around the negativity.

[CatWoman]

36. .....

there's a whole bunch of them

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/01/011005sharpton.htm

[moggie12]

51. Yikes! MLK's daughter led a march against gay rights??

I can't imagine her father doing such a thing.

[CatWoman]

59. yep. disgusting, isn't it?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/12/14/EDGEBAB7KB1.DTL

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/1204/12marchmain.html

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041212-055102-8784r.htm

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002116387_kingmarch11.html

[moggie12]

66. She stood at his gravesite!!!!!!! (sucking air, can't breathe...)

Oh my God! That is so low, disgusting, despicable (too many adjectives apply, will stop now)

[moggie12]

50. I can understand why you're so angry but ....

I just don't see how name-calling gets us anywhere. Pointing out the hypocrisy in a reasoned way would be a good thing, but blanket ridicule just ups-the-ante with the Right Wing. As you also seem to believe, it looks to me that the right wing is "using" religion to achieve their other purposes. Ugly name-calling and ridicule does nothing but make it worse -- it plays right into the RW's hands. I wanted to make sure you didn't think I advocate "ignoring" the hypocrisy. I don't at all. When people point it out, however, I just wish they'd do it in a way that wouldn't make the situation ten times worse.

[GOPBasher]

54. I'm a Christian. He wasn't bashing us.

He was bashing fundamentalist nutcases who vote against their own economic self-interests.

[HughBeaumont]

38. Whatever, I thought it was funny . . .

Better to tell the truth than be delusional about your "election rout" or "mandate" or "values" or even worse, your "victimhood by the awful liberal scourge" . . .

Some people's skins are WAY too thin. On both sides.

[fooj]

48. well said!

O8)

[calimary]

53. Great point. And let's remember how often bush made hay, on the

campaign trail, by saying "you may not agree with me but you know where I stand." The last six words of that, at least to me, explains why so many people who were against the war and didn't think he was doing a good job on that, or with the economy, OR both, still voted for him, anyway. Utterly incomprehensible, but that's exactly what they did. Granted, it makes NO sense to me. WHY on earth would I want to vote for, and elevate to the highest, most powerful job in the world, somebody whose opinions and stand on the issues I care about make me want to run screaming into the night? I don't care how "nice-guy" he supposedly is. Or how firmly and simply he states his "convictions." Look where mr. "nice-guy" has gotten us - with those same toxic "convictions."

[GOPBasher]

58. "Look where Mr. 'Nice Guy' has gotten us" .. EXACTLY!!

Amen to that. They say horrible things about us constantly, and we're supposed to respond by being all nice.

[GOPBasher]

57. Thanks Hugh.

I get so sick of the shit those people say about us. I react by posting things like this.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChiciB1]

67. One Thing You Forgot....

Jesus was a LIBERAL!!!

[Township75]

70. Let's shove this article up Dean's ASS!!!!

That will give him the message about wanting to reach out to people with confederate flags in their trucks, or whatever the fuck statement he made about getting their vote.

Let's email this to Dean so he gets the message!!!

[demwing]

71. Dean Understands

I think that perhaps it is you who needs to understand Dean's message, not the reverse.

[moggie12]

72. Ummmm

What the heck was that??!! Could you possibly be more vulgar, disgusting or stupid?? Are you one of those "freepers" I get hearing about (but have never actually seen, until possibly now) or are you just some sub-intelligent species of life growing in a toxic petrie dish of hate???

Don't ever say anything again up shoving something up somebody's "***" again or I will have to come wash your mouth out with soap. I am a Mommy so be afraid.

[CatWoman]

73. ditto

Could you possibly be more vulgar, disgusting or stupid??

[The Gigmeister]

75. Do you even have an idea of who Govenor Dean IS??

Rarely have I seen so much ignorance in one post...

Govenor Dean is a man of "The People". Govenor Dean does not place litmus tests on who should or should not support him. Govenor Dean is pro-NRA. You know the type...Someone who owns a gun but might also live south of the Mason Dixon and GASP!!!! Might even believe in God and practice a religion!!!


Personally, I'd rather you GIVE this to Govenor Dean instead of emailing it...I'd like to see how he responds to you!!

[The Gigmeister]

74. Fuck this guy and his atheism too!!

He can shove his christian bigotry up his ass.

[moggie12]

76. Hey Gig guy, what's gotten into you?!!

I just saw you being very reasonable-sounding over on a Dean post. You drinking too much coffee in the afternoon?

[The Gigmeister]

77. LOL!

Nah!

I just don't dig all these "Burn the Christian" attitudes.

There was a day where Christain/Gun Owning/Union Members were the BASE of the party. But, around here, you would think those kind of democrats were pukes.

I just get tired of the bullshit. There's a reason we haven't won lately and it's got more to do with the above kind of attitudes than it does the "Mean Ol' DNC".

[TheEconomist]

81. I concur. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

83. Woah, watch out with that.

I agree with you that religion trashing gets us nowhere -- though it is fun as all get out, and a great way to blow off steam -- at least, practically, but I do support people's right to think and speak what they will about gays, religion, minorities, whatever they want. It's a free fucking country.

That said, there's something else going on here. I'm pretty sure that conservatives have a tendency to be less flexible, and are more likely to be ruled by the "totalitarian brain," which is the black and white thing.

We don't like the Republicans, because of their policies. Many of the rank-and-file don't like "liberals," NOT because of their economic policies, welfare policies or whatnot, but because of fear. They have NO IDEA what we are. There is no practical reason to believe that the Democrats are any worse at resolving international conflict and keeping America safe, than the Republicans -- it's all conjecture. To say, "Well if Reagan wasn't there, the cold war would never have ended," is pure speculation -- but it is provided as incontrovertible fact. There is no reason to suggest that if liberal policies were to be given breadth that they would not provide a wonderful society (see Sweden). There is no reason to suggest that rank-and-file Democrats, by and large, are communists, socialists, traitors, or anything of the like. I mean -- there has to be some serious cognitave dissonance to say that "AMERICA HAS REJECTED THE LIBERAL PROGRAM," when 55 million people, some 3 percent less than the amount who voted for chimpster, voted for the Democratic candidate.

And they say, "the left went all out -- this is evidence that they don't have the numbers," conveniently leaving out that the GOP was going "all out" for twenty five fucking years, scaring the fundies, solidifying the base, dividing America, trumpeting jingo, not to mention the ELABORATE network of right-wing intellectual think tanks, pundits (some paid), and the masquerade of one of the major news channels as "objective."

There's no REASON for any of this, and that's the point. What we're left at, in the end, is clamoring biology, and it is in our genes to be suspicious of those who think that they've attained some "resource" that's greater than our own -- in the case of liberal v. conservative, particularly the stereotype of the urban liberal, who is so "out of touch" with the heartland, those things are "enlightenment," "knowledge" and "sophistication." Not that I am claiming all of these things for the left, only that, no matter how you want to spin it, for a country song to take pride in "my checked curtains and double-wide trailer," which is intended to soothe the ego of the "bumpkin," the fact remains that it is the equivalent of "maybe someone will ask you to the prom next, year, cripple girl."

Sophistication, intellectualism, culture, egalitarian behavior and enlightenment, at one time or another, have all been associated with exclusivity, (ironically enough, in the case of egalitarianism) which, like the Pebble Beach golf club, makes it desirable for some people. I didn't just get my education to get knowledge. I got it partially, because I knew it would get me the fuck out of Greenville, IL, where I could meet people who didn't only talk about the "glory of Swiffer," or episeotomy (remember, I was 18, and thought having children, at that age, was for the "trailer trash," at that time), that it would allow me to travel, and go to the city and live near artists -- or be an artist.

However, what I find the most IRONIC, is that the "elite" of the liberal, urban intellectuals live like near paupers, while the "common folk" in Exurbia are sporting 35,000 SUVs. Even the college professors who make a bunch of money generally live fairly modestly -- for one, they travel around, and for another, they have more important things, or just DIFFERENT things, to think about than how many appliances they can buy at the Slyman Brothers' anniversary sale, or whether or not to take that vacation to the furniture store that bills itself as some kind of "getaway." Or if they do collect or acquire material goods, it's usually for a different reason than to "keep up with the Joneses'," THOUGH I will admit that amongst some of the less-intellectual, more party-time urban elite, that materialism is practiced, and with as much gusto as any "Floyd & Donna."

Good god, my point is that it is less the fact that we look down on them, than that they LET IT GET TO THEM so badly. Think about it -- they're WAY more worried about what we think of them, than we are about what they think of us -- it totally plays out in their obvious rhetoric. And no matter how they rationalize it, liberals still possess qualities, knowledge, privileges and positions that some of them will never attain, no matter how many giant cars they buy. That's why they have to try so hard and scream so loud to look down on us, or marginalize us -- they can't just call us "smart," they have to call us "traitors."

We should be allowed to speak our opinions, and they should be able to take the heat. A large part of the anti-liberal program has nothing to do with domestic or foreign policy -- it's a big 'ol defense, to soothe the ego.

We all do things like that -- they're part of the human psyche -- and sometimes, the psyche develops into a political movement: Movement conservatism.

[Grooner Five]

123. This is also what Rush Limbaugh....

is reported to have said about Abu Ghraib.

though it is fun as all get out, and a great way to blow off steam

[Modem Butterfly]

80. How do you know he's an atheist?

[The Gigmeister]

84. This...

"Okay, you want God? Let’s talk about God. Your religion is bogus.

Well, sorry to burst your holy bubble, Jesus freaks, but God did not create the world in seven days; that’s just ignorant. Like a lot of stuff in the Bible, it didn’t happen."



Based on those comments, I find it hard to believe that this is a man of God.

[Modem Butterfly]

85. That certainly doesn't mean he's an atheist

LOTS of theists, and even many Xians, consider Genesis to be allegorical rather than literal. And I'll bet plenty of non-Xians consider themselves to be people of God, too.

[The Gigmeister]

86. Agreed. Fair point, but...

"Xians"???

What is with you? Why must you be so intentionally disrespectful??

It's no wonder the Democratic party gets a bad rap concerning religion with people like you showing such disrespect for no reason at all...

I guess you think it's a good thing to drive-away good hardworking Democrats with such an attitude? It's also no wonder we're losing our once reliable union vote.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Modem Butterfly]

104. I'm not sure why the Mods decided to delete my last post, so I'm reposting

The X in Xian is the Greek symbol for Chi, the first letter of Christ's name. Far from being disrespectful, it is a very old, and very well-documented, manner of refering to Christ, his followers, and his holiday (Xmas).

Your post was both ignorant and arrogant. I await your apology.

[NuttyFluffers]

108. you are right modem butterfly, about Xian.

14 years of religious schooling here, easily 10 of it christian focused, predominantly open-minded catholic religious education with strong historical, metaphorical, (including allegorical and symbolic) and critical thinking emphasis throughout.

the board really needs to correct this ignorance-based hyper-sensitivity.

[Modem Butterfly]

113. I think a lot of people have itchy fingers when it comes to religion

I think it's yet another sign of the shrub's divisiveness.

[NuttyFluffers]

114. i think you are charitable.

it was not what was going through my head in reading the responses you received.

but then i'm jaded and suspicious.

[Modem Butterfly]

120. What can I say? I'm a Humanist

:)

[The Gigmeister]

110. No apology coming...

...I have no doubt that you use it as a sign of disrespect. Regardless of it's meaning.

My reply stands.

[Modem Butterfly]

112. Good to know we have psychics posting on DU

:eyes:

[Debs]

116. Not losing THIS

reliable UNION vote

[Modem Butterfly]

121. Good on you

My folks are retired union members, and lifelong Democrats to boot (well, my mom voted for evil Ronnie in 1980, but in her defense she was probably on drugs at the time).

[Debs]

115. How could

The universe be created in 7 24hr days when the Sun and Moon werent created until the third day?

[The Gigmeister]

117. If He can create the universe...

...I would imagine He can turn artificial lights on and off.

[Modem Butterfly]

122. I think that's why many Xians view Genesis as allegorical

I've always thought that the use of the term "days" in Genesis isn't literal but instead is similar to our casual use of the term. You know, "One day" "Some day" "The other day" "Seems like yesterday". If you read Genesis literally, you're left with a lot of contradiction and holes. Just like any other poetry, I suppose. Of course, Genesis isn't any more likely to be literally true than any other creation myth.

[EVDebs]

87. Forgive them for the know not what they do.....

Please read this "Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are at the heart of power : US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

next read this

"Christian Zionism, Evangelicals and Israel", by Gary M. Burge, Ph.D.
http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/159

and

"Impact of Millennium on the Holy Land"
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week319/cover.html

These "Third Temple" bozos are intentionally setting up the conditions needed to satisy the return of the antichrist to a Third Temple ... and doing it in God's name.

[GOPBasher]

89. Thanks for those links. I like them. nt

[Modem Butterfly]

94. Good stuff

I've saved these links so I can share them with others. Thanks!

[EVDebs]

100. Modem butterfly... I forgot to mention the book "Forcing God's Hand"

by former LBJ speechwriter Grace Halsell. This little pamplet lays it all out there, but when you add in the Burge and Boniot articles mentioned above, well, that pretty much wraps it up and puts a bow on it.

[KTM]

88. Love it.

As the poster above qutoed, ""If I offended any of you tonight, I want to say sincerely, 'You needed it.'"

[GOPBasher]

90. I'm sorry if I offended people.

This is my record number of posts I've ever gotten on a thread, and it's because it's divisive and hateful. A lot of times, I have really long, well reasoned out posts filled with great links, and they get like 6 posts. There's no point to that statement; I just kind of think that's funny.

Anyway, there's a lot I want to say about this. I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I'm sorry if I offended any Christians. I actually consider myself a Christian, in that I believe Jesus Christ God with us on earth. I think that qualifies me as a Christian. But, I'm quite far from a fundamentalist. (Falwell wouldn't consider me a Christian.)

Anyway, my religious beliefs don't really matter. I don't care what anyone believes. You can be anything you want in this country, from a fundamentalist Christian to a Pagan to an Atheist to an eastern mystic and everything and anything in between. Here's what pisses me off: people who don't believe in separation of church and state. If they want a theocracy, they should found their own nation. This is a free democracy. This is not the Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

Now I don't believe these vicious steriotypes of the Republicans that come from this guy's mouth. The people he's talking about are the major extremes. There's a couple reasons I posted this. First of all, I just think that kind of venting might be theraputic (it was for me) and kind of funny. If you didn't think so, I'm sorry.

Here's the major reason. The Right has been winning the war of rhetoric for 35 years, now. They have us painted as communists who want the government to take everyone's money and have complete power over anyone and kill Christianity. That's right, I saw in a chat room the other day, someone said, "The liberals are at WAR with Christianity." Ummmm.... WHAT???? They spew complete fucking lies about us, and the shit fucking WORKS! They get elected because some people think that, "those liberals are going to take away our bibles and force our churches to marry gay people!" That, of course, is complete and utter bullshit, but that gets them elected, doesn't it?

I want to start fighting this war of the rhetoric. I want to paint all right wingers as fascists and Nazis who are out to give people the death penalty for homosexuality, adultry, or "believing in the wrong religion." Is this shit true? Of course not. No one this side of Falwell really wants any of that. But why don't we paint them with extreme steriotypes the way they've been doing it to us for 35 years?

If you are good enough to listen to the hate-filled -- can completely untrue -- rhetoric about liberals coming from Limbaugh and Coulter, and honestly turn the other cheek, you are a FAR better person than I am. I can't do it! They fucking piss me off, and I'm going to start fighting back. I can't take that shit anymore.

So, when Limpballs says, "The liberals are at war with Christianity," I'll say, "No we're not, you lying motherfucker! YOU are at war with all NON-Christians, you fascist fuck!" See? This is how I'm reacting. I just cant be nice anymore. I'm glad some of you still can.

Anyway, when you say that this does more harm than good, you're probably right, so I won't post anything like this again. But I'm going to lay into right wingers when they say bullshit to me, personally. If they're unconvertable anyway, it really doesn't matter. But I think you're all right. This kind of post probably does more harm than good, especially because some reasonable people might see it and think that all liberals are like that.

Man I'm long-winded. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I won't post anything like this again.

Peace, GOPBasher

[EVDebs]

91. GOPBasher...these people live in glass houses. They will be

pulling their hair out if you just stick to telling the truth, point by point.

My favorite is how the MSM (mainstreammedia) ignores the Bush family's past ... Just look into USMC Gen. Smedley D. Butler's singlehandedly saving the USofA back in 1932 after the Bonus Marchers were pushed out of WashDC by the military...which set the stage for FDR's election. Butler blew the whistle on "The Plot to Overthrow FDR" see http://www.ihffilm.com/r547.html or read Jules Archers' book "The Plot to Seize the White House" (expensive book and rare from what I've seen", but out there still nonetheless).

George Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush were some of the plotters.

[Modem Butterfly]

95. We need to have these discussions

Like any family, too much repression is a bad thing. We've got to have room for healthy disagreement and exploration of ideas. It's posts like this that allow for just such a discussion. We can blow off steam, talk about the intersection between politics and faith, argue about PR, it's really a very good thing. A little conflict can be healthy! And god knows this conflict was a healthy one. LOL!

Seriously, thanks for posting this. It was a good essay and sparked a lot of discussion. That's what DU is all about.

[GOPBasher]

97. Thanks and good points.

[Mutley]

92. ...

funny - yes... true - pretty much... should we actually say this to these people - no way, not a good idea. that would only serve to push them farther away, and to give them new supporters who were once on the fence.

[EVDebs]

101. No, mutley, they need to have the logs in their eyes pointed out since

they've been running around pointing at the specks in ours...

[tngledwebb]

96. A bit over the top, isn't it?

Don't want the NYT editorial bored comin' down on us for such heavy satire, do you?

[tokenlib]

98. God is a big guy-gal and has a sense of humor....

...and the God I worship would probably appreciate a rant like this.
Sometimes we get so worried about offending people that we gag the truth and become ineffectual. A lot of Christian ministers adjust their sermons and behavior to avoid offending and waking up the "powers that be" in their congregations.

The God I worship, cares more about the truth, the powerless and the least among us--than getting all hyped up about four letter words and political correctness.

This sounds more like "holier than thou" bashing than Christian bashing to me. And damn it, I found it quite therapeutic. In fact it is a lot closer to the Gospel than a lot of sermons I've heard. But then I've often said you can often find a lot more Christian kindness expressed in a bar than in some churches.

[oc2002]

99. Priceless..nt,

nt.

[Oreo]

102. My reply to a fundie chain letter from my sister

This guy is right on. There is no difference between the Islamic Extremists and the Christian Extremists IMO. I'm a Christian but to me God is forgiving and loving. Warning: this will raise your blood pressure!

Subject: Food for Thought!

In light of the many perversions and jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they
misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the
world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through
cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!!

_______________________________
My reply:
I find this email completely offensive. 150,000 people died in Asia because we don't spank our kids? A woman got murdered because she doesn't want prayer in school? Almost 3,000 people died in NY and DC because God let it happen?

How about the fact that Americans are now detested more and more worldwide every day? How about the fact that our president led us into a horrid and unjustified war that has killed 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqis...children... Mothers... Fathers... Sons. They are people too. How about the national guardsmen and women that are being forced to stay in the military even though their obligation to the military is finished? Do you ever think that this war may lead to your kids and mine fighting in a broader war that only happened because Bush decided he needed to have Iraq's oil. What about that violence? What about the depleted uranium that will poison our troops and the people of Iraq for years to come?

Take a step back and look at the way the media has grown. If a fly dies in eastern Romania, we know about it. Take a minute to think that in "the good old days" we weren't force-fed 24-hour news. The problem is that when crime occurs (and I'll admit there's some really sick stuff out there) you know about it instantly. You don't think stuff like this happened in the idyllic 50's? I'm sure there were plenty of sick stories from the "golden age" that would be pasted all over the headlines today if they happened again.

You are more than free to believe what you want but don't send anything like this to us again.
Please do not reply to this trying to convert me or tell me I'm going to hell. You've had your say with email and I just had mine.

Thank you.

[NuttyFluffers]

105. an amusing rant. unfortunately it's polysyllabic...

so therefore the ....um... what was it now?...."slack-jawed inbred flatlanders" might have difficulty reading, let alone understanding it.
:evilgrin:

well, whatever releases the tension. :hug:

[w4rma]

106. effete? Why does the writer feel the need to insult himself even in jest?

Also why insult (and therfore alienate) *all* Christians by using the term "Jesus freak"?

focus.

[itzamirakul]

107. It IS funny! And so very true...

I have got to share this with my mailing list...

Thanks for posting...