Two possible retorts to RW declaration of "The U.S. is NOT a democracy"

[checks-n-balances]

Next time someone says that to me, I'm going say one of these which, by the way, are not meant for sarcasm, but are honest statements:

"I think you're right - it's NOT a democracy...anymore."

or maybe:

"I think you're right, and I can't decide whether we're moving more towards a plutocracy*, a kakistocracy**, or a theocracy***. Which one do you think it is nowdays?"

What do you think - what's your reply to them when they say that?

And by the way...which one do YOU think we are now, and which is more dangerous?

Edited to add:

* Plutocracy: 1. Government by the wealthy. 2. A wealthy class that controls a government. 3. A government or state in which the wealthy rule

** Kakistocracy: Government by the least qualified or most unprincipled citizens.

*** Theocracy: 1. A government ruled by or subject to religious authority. 2. A state so governed.

source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I simply ask them if tax cuts for the top 1 percent represents them

when they tell me it's a representative republic.

[Solon]

2. This is one of those things I hate people to declare....

A Republic is meaningless without the nuts and bolts as to how it operates. China is a Republic, the USSR was a collection of Republics. All a Republic is is a nation without a strict hereditary leader, such as a king or emporer. As another example, Great Britian is not a Republic, however they are a Democracy, confusing isn't it? A Republic is a FORM of government, Democracy is HOW that government is selected.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

29. Great Point

Remind conservatives that the Soviet Union was a Republic. Ought to make their heads explode.

[bahrbearian]

3. I say "go Cheney Yourself"

[gnofg]

4. agree

with them and then ask them why does your party assert that a majority of the country is Christian and therefore we should have the 10 commandments and the creche on display because that is exactly what republic protects-the rights of the minority.

[charlie]

5. I ignore it

It's the bleating of a pendant with too-tight britches. The kind of guy who goes goggle-eyed if you call a tomato a vegetable.

[checks-n-balances]

8. But I don't want to ignore it anymore

Is it possible for this to be a "teachable moment" or at least something that will make them stop & think? Even if they can't see it now, maybe someday they will remember that someone tried to tell them that we're moving towards fascism (without having said the word "fascism").

It wasn't that long ago when I didn't know what the words

plutocracy
kakistocracy (or)
theocracy

meant.

I'm just suggesting that we give them something to think about.

[bowens43]

6. I know I'll get flamed for this, but they're right.

It isn't a democracy and was never meant to be one. Democracy is tyranny. In a democracy those in the minority have no rights. If the US was a Democracy, homosexuality would be illegal, Christianity would be the state religion, we would probably still be segregated, censorship would be the norm.

We live (or did before bush came along) in a Constitutional Republic.

The Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, protects us from true democracy, protects us from the tyranny of the majority.

[checks-n-balances]

11. But why isn't it protecting us now - against the tyranny of the neocon

plutocratic and theocratic minority?

[Darryl Cramer]

12. what country are you living in?

Homosexuality perhaps isn't illegal, but the act is and homosexuals still can't get married.

Christianity is the state religion. It's in the pledge and it's on the currency.

Segregation isn't imposed legally, but it is tacitly.

There are still lists of banned books in the US.

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but I think we've still got a long way to go.

[bowens43]

24. I didn't say that things were perfect, far from it.

I was just saying that a true democracy would be far worse then what we have now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Wrong...

"what country are you living in?"
Posted by Darryl Cramer

"Homosexuality perhaps isn't illegal, but the act is and homosexuals still can't get married."


Lawrence v Texas overturned all sodomy laws....

[brindis_desala]

14. Democracy is tyranny only in its most basic manifestation

It more usually describes a political system where the legitimacy of exercising power stems from the consent of the people. That basis is what allows for the existence of constitutional government in which the power of the leaders is checked and restrained; representative institutions based on free elections, which provide a procedural framework for the delegation of power by the people; competitive parties, in which the ruling majority respects and guarantees the rights of minorities; and civil liberties, such as freedoms of speech, press, association, and religion.

But strictly speaking the U.S. is a Democratic Republic since the executive is chosen not by the people but its Electoral College an arcane and anti-democratic institution that makes a mockery of one person one vote.

[Solon]

15. What you said was, by all means, mostly worthless...

There is no state on the planet that doesn't have a constitution of some sort, whether stated explicitly, like us or China, or implied, like GB. Plus, most nations on the planet are Republics by definition, even those that have lifetime dictators, the exception are the few that still have Kings, Queens, and Emporers, like Japan, GB, Netherlands, or Nepal. A democratic republic is a country where representatives that choose policy are elected by the PEOPLE, a direct democracy is where the people micromanage most policy decisions. The point is, if you vote, and you have a choice between candidates and/or parties, you live in a democracy. Constitutions are for things such as actual form, such as a unicameral/bicameral legislature, and also about protecting rights of minorities, such as our Bill of Rights.

[JaneQPublic]

17. A Republic is one form of Democracy

A Republic is nothing more than a Representative Democracy -- as opposed to a Direct Democracy.

So, to say that we have a Republican form of government, not a Democracy, is like saying "We drive a Taurus, not a Ford."

Further explanation from Wikipedia:

"Democracy" versus "republic"

The definition of the word "democracy" from the time of ancient Greece up to now has not been constant. In contemporary usage, the term "democracy" refers to a government chosen by the people, whether it be direct or representative.

There is another definition of democracy, particularly in constitutional theory and in historical usages and especially when considering the works of Aristotle or the American "Founding Fathers." Socrates, Plato and Aristotle never used the words democracy or republic interchangeably. See classical definition of republic. According to this definition, the word "democracy" refers solely to direct democracy, whilst a representative democracy is referred to as a "republic". This older terminology also has some popularity in U.S. Conservative and Libertarian debate.

Modern definitions of the term republic, however, refer to any state with an elective head of state serving for a limited term, in contrast to most contemporary hereditary monarchies which are representative democracies and constitutional monarchies adhering to parliamentarism. (Older elective monarchies are also not considered republics.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

31. res publica

republic is a roman word (res publica = public matter)

it described the roman public with senate which debates were PUBLIC (vs secret, closed)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Not flaming, you but just asking you to remember your civics lessons

The U.S. isn't a pure democracy, which it would be if everyone got to vote on every issue. Obviously, that is unwieldy in a society larger than a village, so we have representatives.

What we have (at least on paper) is a representative democracy with separation of power and judicial checks and balances.

You're confusing the basic form (representative democracy) with the trimmings.

Parliamentary systems are also representative democracies, but without separation of powers, since the prime minister is the leader of the ruling party. Their records on civil rights vary from country to country, depending more on the national culture than on anything written down.

Even with our Constitution, homosexuality was illegal in most states until about 40 years ago, America was segregated, and states had censorship boards for books and movies. It wasn't the Constitution that changed that, but new interpretations of the Constitution.

[Eloriel]

7. It's fascism -- with a thin veneer, a camouflage, resembling democracy.

That's all.

[checks-n-balances]

9. I totally agree - but if you say that, they won't listen to anything else

you say to them.

That's why I posted #8 above...

[librechik]

10. it's a kleptocracy

yeah, and what you said too!

[checks-n-balances]

13. Exactamento! Kleptocracy...the word I was REALLY looking for

I KNEW I was leaving something out, but couldn't think of what it was.

(I don't know why I'm getting so excited about a descriptive term for something so horrible - but thank you, just the same!)

KLEPTOCRACY: A government characterized by rampant greed and corruption.

ibid

Therefore (IMHO):

The GWB Administration =

plutocracy + kakistocracy + theocracy + kleptocracy =

fascism

Edited to add definition & statements

[Clarkie1]

16. We are a liberal democracy if, as Ben Franklin said, "you can keep it" n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

18. The U.S. is a MAJORITARIAN democracy only when the republicans

want something. Then it's "let's count hands".

To be accurate, the organization of this country is twofold: it's a constitutional republic. The Constitution protects the minority from the force and whims of the majority. The republic allows representatives to speak for the masses of individual citizens. It's the republic part that needs serious fixing.

[rockymountaindem]

19. My retort would be

do you really believe that or are you just saying it in an attempt to throw me off?

[Cha]

20. My answer is...no it's not a Democracy..

It's a Fascist state with the bush goon squad sucking out our Liberties.

[Mel]

22. Here's a link you may finding interesting

it's from Steve Kangas, it sure helps me out when I hear that right-wing yap. Most of them know better than to even try that crap on me it doesn't work!
I do think that yapping point came from the right wing hate head radio. What do you think? It sounds like something Rusholin would put out for his ditto head brown shirts to spew.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-democracy.htm
Myth: The U.S. is not a democracy.

Fact: The U.S. is a representative democracy in every branch of government.
Summary

The U.S. is a democracy -- just not a direct one. Every branch of our government -- executive, legislative, judicial, monetary -- ultimately derives its power from majority rule or approval. By making our democracy indirect instead of direct, the Founders prevented unrestrained mob rule, allowing a more reasonable pace of majority rule, and greater room for compromise.



Argument

Conservatives continually point out that America is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic. This is a quibble over definitions, because a constitutional republic is a type of democracy. Democracy comes in two forms: direct and republican. In a direct democracy, the people vote directly on proposed laws, and government (to the extent that it exists) serves only to put their laws into action. By contrast, a republic is a representative democracy, where laws are passed not by the people, but their elected representatives. Adding the term "constitutional" to the word "republic" is frivolous, since all nations have constitutions.

Why, then, do conservatives insist on this distinction? There are two reasons, both of them trivial. One is to embarrass those who make casual use of the term "democracy." Another is that conservatives are so hostile to democracy that they seek to deny its very name.</snip>

[Cats Against Frist]

23. Imagine that -- we never covered this in any of my poli sci classes

Here's what I've always thought: The U.S. is a Constitutional Republic, which is one form of Democracy.

Though one of the above posters mentions that it is "frivilous" to add "Constitutional," I prefer to add it, simply because to change the Constitution requires a "super majority," which is distinctly different than "majority rule," which is VERY important in dealing with the tyranny of that majority.

For instance, as long as the Dems have 34 senators, the Gestapo can never change the Constitution. Of course it won't make that much difference if, by means of a "fillibustering-busting" 60 Republican majority, the GOP can appoint whatever partisan whack-job is the most delusional and most loyal to the King in every judicial position, and they can twist the words of the Constitution and lie about the intentions of the framers even more than they already do. They could completely write Thomas Jefferson, Rousseau, the Enlightenment, the Anti-Federalists and The Bill of Rights, right out of American history.

And then, modernity.

At any rate, much of this IS nit-picking over definitions. I do agree that we're still, in theory a "democracy," though that democracy has taken some pretty serious hits in the last five years. I believe that, right now, this is a nation ruled both by the zeal of right-wing intellectuals and ideologues, and the consent of their idiot consituency. I know you believe the GOP didn't cheat, and these assholes convinced their flock (hey, I didn't say it, the right-wing intellectuals did) to exercise their democratic right to vote back in the Church and Ruling Class.

Simple enough. So it's not really some of these various "-ocracies" until our right to vote actually is taken away. And I'm not saying that many peoples' rights haven't been trampled upon. I'm just being optimistic.

[rodeodance]

25. well, bush says we are a democracy and wants to spead it around

the world. So i believe him;-)

[tngledwebb]

26. Fascist plutocracy.

n/t

[DaedelusNemo]

27. My retort: "You vote, right?"

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. Technically it is a constitutional republic

Nothing right-wing about that, any political science professor will tell you that.

[rolleitreks]

30. I ask, "What's the difference?"

Most people don't know, but are simply repeating a talk radio mantra. We are, for all it matters, a constitutional democratic republic. Minority rights are protected more by the Bill of Rights than by the representational or federal structures.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. semantics...

We are a democratic republic....


We govern ourselves through our elected readers...


A pure democracy would suck...


50.1 percent of the people could tell the 49.9 percent of the people what to do....