Thoughts on Dean and Rosenberg

[Fabio]

I saw yesterday during Chris Heinz's thread, a fair amount of conflict between people, between Dean supporters and others. That's all fine and good, though I personally dont like it. This post is not meant to be a lecture on behavior. I would just like to say that, as I mentioned yesterday, Simon Rosenberg is apparently quite a Deaniac, and perhaps all this strife may be waisted energy. I am quite certain that both Rosenberg and the Governor's experience and insights are vital to the party's future.

One clue of this alignment was Joe Trippi's comments last night on Hardball about Rosenberg's early recognition and admiration of the Dean Campaign (transcript not yet posted to www.msnbc.com). This value of this evidence is diluted because of what many of us believe is a fraid relationship between Dean and his former campaign manager. Seems possible, though I cannot pretend to know what the condition of there relationship is.

More telling, and probably more objective, is this excellent piece from the NYT (from July 04) that talks about Rosenberg and Rob Stein. It's the best info on Rosenberg I have found:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/magazine/25DEMOCRATS.html?ei=5088&en=13ada638bbe542f0&ex=1248494400&partner=rssnyt&pagewanted=print&position=

Here is a snippet:

He didn't agree with all of Howard Dean's positions, but Rosenberg was among the first centrist Democrats to embrace Dean, sensing early on the potential of Dean's following. While the Democratic Leadership Council attacked Dean for his angry brand of populism, Rosenberg looked for a way to tap into the genuine passion among Democrats for a more creative, more defiant kind of politics. He talked to donors around the country, like Andy Rappaport, who were angry at the Clintonesque rhetoric that obscured the sharp ideological divide between them and the Rush Limbaugh right; they were desperate for new policy ideas and for a more aggressive, coherent strategy.

end


Some have suggested that Simon Rosenberg is a consummate party insider. I dont see it. From all the evidence I have gathered, he seems like a change agent, as does Gov. Dean. Thanks for listening.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. ....

[welshTerrier2]

2. a change agent ???

not on the Party's Iraq position he isn't ...

if you're planning to respond with "the Chair position is not about policy" argument, I'd be very interested in your reaction to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1488164&mesg_id=1488164

[IrateCitizen]

3. He strikes me as an incredibly adept organizer...

Which is what the DNC needs right now. People like Dean (myself included) because he presents the "firebrand" image that gets us fired up. But I listened to Rosenberg on Marty Kaplan's show Saturday on Air America, and was incredibly impressed. For instance, Rosenberg recognized the importance of cultivating left-leaning media projects, to the point that he pledged to stir up seed money through DNC donors if he were chairman to help progressive media outlets take it "to the next level".

He also recognizes the need for not only cultivating promising candidates, but helping to educate them as well. The right does a tremendous job at this, with their "leadership seminars" for up-and-comers. Rosenberg sees a similar effort needed in the DNC, which will help eliminate the problem of Dem campaigns just being a laundry list of "issues" as opposed to offering a distinct worldview.

Finally, the DNC chair does not influence policy. That's not his job. His job is organization. I'm beginning to think that it wouldn't be bad to have Rosenberg as the DNC head, and to keep Dean in his present position -- applying heat to the Dems from outside the system, indicating the possibility of a hostile takeover if they don't shape up.

[madfloridian]

4. Rosenberg the change is in tactics. With Dean it is what we stand for.

I think he is very much a part of the mindset of the DLC. I can't prove it, but his war approval is one instance.

I think Rosenberg does want to appeal to the grassroots(unlike From), but more as tactic, not to change policy.

I could be wrong. When Dean said in his announcement that the word "values" is a code word for "appeasement" of the right wing...he said it all. He threw out the challenge. He means it. If he does not get DNC chair, he will still have a vehicle for change...and he will use it.

I think it is good that Rosenberg wants to appeal to us, though, because that is better than From does.

[CWebster]

5. He is a New Democrat

and not just a bottom feeder but top brass. How can you possibly remove that glaring fact from the issue? If he is a Deaniac, he can support Dean then.

Check out the New Democratic Network site and see what a limited amount of real substantial info there is. We know he is inclined to support Bush views on Iraq, with a bit of tweaking, and militarism. He is a free trader, focused on the investor class, but acknowledges Dean's achievement. I don't really see HOW he can market the party better than Dean if his approach on the issues is the failed DLC strategy.

Okay, maybe his strategy is to not be so overt about finger-pointing and condemning, say Michael Moore, but where, fundamentally, is the line that separates him from what is already bogging the party down when the Democrat he shares the most with is Lieberman.

[Fabio]

7. I think folks probably...

see the role of DNC Chair differently, and it accounts for a large part the desire to see different people head the Organization. Some people are looking for a more behind the scenes, strategic type (like Rosenberg). Others are looking for more vocal style leadership that Gov Dean certianly can provide. I fall in the former camp.

[CWebster]

9. You know, I keep hearing this

but how come I ALWAYS saw the D chair making the rounds pitching party issues and often debating them with the R chair?

Whadaya mean its not part of the job? Its outrageous to suggest that we not pay attention to the positions of the organization the candidate has allegiance to, especially if the job is none other than raising funds and designing startegy. It amounts to nothing without product and the policies, the positions, the plank of the party is the product.


Gosh.

[Fabio]

13. You seem to want change

and are unhappy with the current state of the DNC. I am too. Yet your argument is for the status quo when it comes to the role of the DNC Chair. I dont get it.

I dont care how many times Terry McCauliffe went on tv. Our party already has great spokespeople -- Biden, Dean, Kennedy, Kerry, etc). How many times did you see Rove on tv?

[CWebster]

15. I don't get it either...status quo?

Biden, for crying out loud?

Rove ain't party chair, it is that Ed Gillispie.

Most likely, the powers that be are afraid of Dean. They are afraid of the risk he entails, but what could be riskier than more of the same? Which leaves them in a dillema, while they wait for their vision of a centrist utopia to materialize, the bottom drops out. But then, the bottom for them drops out maybe when Dean comes to town and they just can't get over that Dean is the IT man.

Still, I fail to see how divorcing the party identity with fund raising and startegy works.

[Fabio]

17. Do you think that Rove

is effectively the RNC head or not?

[ChrisHeinz]

6. Ah ha! This is True

I have to comment on this as a member of NDN, and a Kerry Supporter/Partisan/Family Member. The leadership of NDN was very supportive of Dean's campaign during the primaries, though they gave audience to all the candiates in there forums. I remember that vividly, because I fought for my stepfather to address the group to strengthen his following.

For me personally, you can imagine that it might have been uncomfortable to be surrounded by Dean supporters (no offense - I have tons of deaniac friends) -- but it wasn't. Probably the best thing I can say is that Simon runs a very inclusive and smart (ie intellectual) organization. Indeed, my first real appreciation of the innovation of the Dean Campaign came from experiences I had with NDN in the early summer of 2003 (ie before the explosive end of the second quarter fundraising at June 30 that really catapulted the campaign to the forefront.)

Btw, I am amazed my post yesterday caused so much debate. It seems everyone was having a slow day at work. Not just me.

[madfloridian]

8. Do you agree with my post about the real differences?

I believe that Rosenberg wants to change tactics...that is good.

But has he changed his mind on the DLC stances he holds and has held in the past? I believe for now that he stands for reaching out to more, but not real change for the party.

In my mind and in the minds of many I know, the war was the critical point for us with the party's lack of voice. There are so many dead now, our guys and Iraqis, and we have lost more as a nation.

Yet, Rosenberg apparently still thinks the war was "a good thing." Do you know why that is?

I have many gripes about the DLC, and that is no surprise since I speak openly. But I do try to be fair and present their own words...and often their own words are damning.

I believe Rosenberg is more open to the activists in the party than From and the other leadership, but I have a lot of concerns that nothing will change.

You can open up and reach out and embrace.....but we still need change. This time it is different. We had not one speaking out, and we went to war unjustly.

This time the party itself must present a face of change or many of us won't be with it. Not just talking grassroots...being grassroots....listening to us.

[ChrisHeinz]

11. Response

I agree with the gist of what your saying, particularly in that Simon's personal politics are more moderate than parts of the base, including many Dean supporters. I also disagree. My basic feeling is that whoever the party's head is has at least two enduring responsibilities:

1) bring together as many factions of the party as possible by stressing commonalities and being very diplomatic. also, educate new voters early on to bring on board

2) create a durable argument and echo chamber against republicans over the long term. this includes fighting for control of media, think tanks, conventional wisdom

I understand that many people consider Simon's supportive statements on the war in Iraq as a non starter. I myself was vehemntly against the war. I just dont think that makes him less of a democrat than me. Nor do I feel threatened by this divergence, probably because I see his potential role differently than many here at DU. I believe that message and values, things that define us, things that Governor Dean nailed in 2003, are formed from the bottoms up in the new world of dem politics. Primarily, we voters support and contribute to candidates that reflect our views. But, I think it has moved even past this simple relationship into a realm of active advocacy (blogs) and grass roots energy people now give on the streets and thru the web. I think that Simon understands how Dem politics has become decentralized, and wants to reinforce that. That, to me, is at the very core of what was special about Governor Dean's campaign.

[madfloridian]

14. Thank you for your response. But it is different this time.

This time we have the advantage of the internet, and we know we were lead down the primrose path by lies and partial lies.

When I first came onboard here in 2002, I was so stunned. I was raised very circumspectly in a very religious home. I was church pianist, and sometimes organist in various Southern Baptist churches here. My father was usually chairman of deacons. My children were active. But that is the past.

I have great fear of extremists, and Dean mentions this in his book as well. I lived it, and I saw it happening to my church. I see more now.

I consider the DLC as extremists in many matters, not all. If you are beholden to corporations and their money, you are beholden to their policies of war and imperialism for profit. I believe that is in part what has happened to our country.

I believe Howard Dean has the right idea, there is no choice but to change drastically. That is why I say the face of the party must change, the view it presents to the public. We must have a bulldog attitude now, not a poodle one.

If you haven't already, there are some interviews by Gibson at FOX with Rosenberg. He is very very nice, and praises Bush a lot, and shows a willingness to work with him. All well and good, but I am of the increasing number who think that is not enough anymore.

One more thing, and I don't want to sound rude. I think it was pretty tasteless for the Rosenberg blog to post Trippi's endorsement on the same day Dean announced. Sure it was a political thing, but it was a matter of just plain decency as well. Trippi doing it on Hardball was bad enough, but to post it on an opposing candidate's blog was poor taste.

That said, thanks for your response. It was measure and understanding.

[Capn Sunshine]

20. News flash Re Trippi: he clashed with Dean often

I always had the underlying feeling Trippi was in his own orbit , and that it coincided with ours more than it didn't. But he and Gov. Dean frequently clashed.

Trippi did NOT appreciate being let go, and he still carries that baggage IMO.

[madfloridian]

22. Dean handled it well today on CNN with Woodruff.....

She absolute taunted him with it, showing Trippi's quotes and having video of him..

Dean said this:

SNIP..Woodruff" "But Joe Trippi says of you, Howard Dean, he says, "We are muting one of the most progressive voices in the party, when we ought to be taking somebody who knows how to make the apparatus work, which Howard was not really that interested in."
(then she showed his Rosenberg endorsement and pictures of Trippi)

DEAN: I'm not going to -- I'm not going to go after Joe Trippi. I have been very good about that.

This is not about Joe Trippi. The election is about the future of Democrats and the future of democracy. I know how to make grassroots work. We brought hundreds of thousands of people into this party, many of whom were not Democrats. We need those people in order to win."

Right, it is not about Joe Trippi, it is about us. I think Howard just told him to buzz off.

[incapsulated]

10. The Debate

On your thread was because a: You're Chris Heinz and b: It involved Dean.

I'm more for Dean than against Rosenberg. But I have serious problems with anyone who has a background that is so steeped in the DLC, honestly. His invoking of the need to emphasize "values" and support for the war makes me think that he believes the meme that there is something wrong with the Democrat's positions and that a move to the center, or right, or some form of appeasement is in order. I'm sick to death of the Republicans framing the debate, it will cause us to lose again and again. This party needs a lot more than simple reorganizing, it needs a fundamental shift in it's approach and it's attitude. Dean, I believe, is the perfect person to initiate the kind of change in direction that is necessary to get us back on track, here.

[moggie12]

18. HI Chris, you still there??

Thank you very much for "coming on" DU. I am a newcomer to DU and more of a "moderate/centrist" democrat. I lean towards Simon Rosenberg for the DNC Chair position but have one serious reservation.

First, while I agree with the argument that "organization" is separate from "policy" (and that Simon Rosenberg's brings much to the table in terms of his organizational skills), I still think policy needs to be factored into the equation. We can be as well organized as the Republicans currently are, but if we don't fix our "policy" problems it won't matter.

My most serious policy concern on the economic side relates to what I consider to be the Party's excessive "ties" to Wall Street and the high-tech industry. In policy terms, this has meant the Party has not taken strong-enough stands (in my opinion) on stock option expensing, excessive dividend tax breaks, hedge fund industry regulation, etc. So what I'm saying is, I'm more of a centrist Democrat but I think some centrists have been complicit in letting the average American get ripped off over the past few years (!).

Therefore, I'm a little hesitant concerning Simon Rosenberg since, from what I've heard, he leans toward the Centrist camp. (I'll stick just to the economic issues here as others have already raised the Party's position with resepct to Iraq.)

This is my quandary: Dr. Dean's "populist" economic message was what I liked best about him during the Primaries. For reasons that would take too long to go into here, I would prefer that he not be the DNC Chair, however. I'd feel much better about the idea of Simon Roseberg getting the DNC job if I knew that the DNC was taking to heart Dr. Dean's populist economic message. I'd also feel better if there was an explicit recognition that raising money from the "grassroots" is far preferable to raising massive amounts of corporate campaign contributions IF those contributions are going to be allowed to affect our policy. So, in other words, we should stop taking Wall Street contributions if those contributions are going to prevent us from trying to put a halt to some of the shenanigans still going on in the financial industry and the corporate world.

Do you agree that this is a valid issue? Is there any information you can provide me that would allay my concerns?? Thanks for listening....

[Capn Sunshine]

21. Yet Rosenberg remains an enigma

I grant you his organizational skill , and his enthusiasm. But his connection to the past failed strategies and Democrats who never leave DC is what i find uncomfortable. NDN was at it's core founded by Lieberman who is on thin ice with most of the base, and if as the WSJ states , Rosenberg's getting chair "Vindicates Lieberman" , how does this further our cause? This is important to me and many of my Democratic brethren. Lieberman NEEDS to be repudiated, NOT vindicated. He either falls in line or faces a significant primary challenge. You know what I'm talking about Chris, your own father was adept at walking that line on the other side of the aisle.

I'm comfortable with Rosenberg as chair, but I'd feel a lot more progress is being made with Gov. Dean.

[ClarkUSA]

26. The latest post on "your" thread is heartbreaking, Chris

This is more than a intellectual debate to some. #392, por favor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1485698

[adigal]

12. Trippi said Dean does not like all the details

and organization, and all the other things that would go along with being DNC chair, and that is why he supported Rosenberg. Is this true??? Would this be a big waste of Dean's talents?

[madfloridian]

16. That is not true.

I believe Trippi hurt himself with that more than he did Howard Dean.

[ClarkUSA]

25. Oh, you mean like how Trippi spent all the Dean campaign $$$$?????

[shance]

27. Today, Joe Trippi was diagnosed with gilded tower syndrome.

Appears to be a chronic case, which seems to have originated from a significant chip on Mr. Trippi's right shoulder, along with an inability and/or lack of cohesive conviction to run for an office himself.

The disorder can exacerbate and inflame tendencies to uncontrollably point fingers at those he envies, accompanied by sporadic urges to cast insignificant opinions out into media oblivion, most often occuring while safely ensconced way up high in the rafters of a tall brick structure located on the banks of Gitchigoomey.

[Larkspur]

19. Gee, Dean was Gov of VT for 11 years....

He took a state with a deficit and turned it into a surplus and a horrible bond rating and made it the best in New England. My, my! In order to do that, Dean must have paid attention to the details that were important to getting the job done.

Trippi is out of touch with Dean supporters and it shows more and more.

[sandnsea]

23. Free Trade

If he doesn't get that free trade is hurting the world more than helping it, at this point, then he's not a change agent. That's the main thing that disturbs me about Rosenberg.

And "the beautiful environment". Good lord. Environmentalism isn't about "the beautiful environment". It's about having an environment at all, which we won't have if free traders keep rampaging around the world raping the land.

Other than that, Rosenberg's great.

[ClarkUSA]

24. Evidently, Dean Is Good Enough For Congressman Conyers

And where does Simon Rosenberg stand on election reform, Chris Heinz?

http://www.johnconyers.com/vertical/Sites/%7BEF00C507-612C-4BA3-84C0-446C97F7E413%7D/uploads/%7B129465FC-89BB-40F6-8365-DB3D130BBADB%7D.PDF

[DaedelusNemo]

28. 21st century politics is internet forum-driven... do it quick /nt