There's no way the party bosses will allow Dean to be chair

[Q]

I may be going out on a limb here...but I believe that Dean doesn't have a chance of becoming chair of the DNC. It has nothing to do with his qualifications or abilities. It has everything to do with the fact the the NDN / DLC is running the show behind the scenes. Although Dean is a moderate...he's not THEIR kind of moderate.

I will be the first to apologize and say I was wrong if he somehow ends up becoming Chair. But given that the NDN and the DLC have powerful organizations already in place to 'influence' the votes...they won't allow anyone not loyal to their agenda to attain a leadership role in the party machine.

I hope I'm wrong...but I think Dean has about as much chance of getting the chair as he did in getting the nomination. The NDN / DLC have already chosen who they want for chair and won't accept an 'outsider' that might take the party where they don't want it to go. That they're even pretending to consider Dean is nothing more than theater to make it seem like a democratic process.

Call it a gut feeling or speculation...but I think it's a done deal.

[DaveinMD]

1. the DLC does not run the party

but there are powerful people who don't like Dean. I hope Dean gets it. I think they should split the thing between him and Rosenberg.

[Q]

5. Who IS 'running the party' if not the DLC and NDN?

Certainly you don't think the DNC is running the party?

The 'powerful people' you're talking about are connected...in one way or another...to the DLC or NDN. Do you think they're gone to all the trouble of bulding their 'new' Democratic organizations to allow it to be taken in another direction by an 'outsider'?

[DaveinMD]

13. High paid consultants

are running the party. High level, well connected people. They aren't necessarily DLC. Many of them are liberal. Its not a matter of DLC v liberals. Its a matter of elite's versus real party building.

[janx]

17. YEP. It's a matter of power.

That's not what democracy is supposed to be about. And it's time for real party building now. Cheers, Dave. :toast:

[DaveinMD]

26. yep

I just read that article about Hansen and Shrum and the consultants again. I get so pissed.

[Q]

28. Okay...but can you name any 'liberals' among these power brokers?

Just wondering. I'd be interested in knowing about these liberals within the power structure.

[DaveinMD]

31. Shrum

is actually a liberal. Remember, he's a Kennedy guy. He's always been pushed by the Kennedy family. Not DLC. Pollster Mark Mellman is also a liberal.

This isn't a matter of ideology. Its a matter of power brokers and the elites v reformers and party building.

I want Dean to get it because I know he would shake up this incestuous relationship.

[Q]

51. Shrum?

Your ONLY example of a 'liberal' is Shrum? Isn't he getting out of the 'business'? And it's strange that you even bring Kennedy's name up in this context. The New Democrats have shoved Kennedy to the back of the bus and he has no more say in the direction of the party than I do.

To be quite honest...I don't care who gets the Chair. In fact...it would be better for the grassroots if Dean didn't get it because he would be expected to play the New Democratic game of collusion and cooperation with the Bush government.

What the hell is WRONG with the Democratic party leadership? Can't they see that the rank and file thinks they're in bed with the Bushies? Or do they even care that such a impression exists as they become part of the rubber stamp congress that the Neocons have always wanted?

[DaveinMD]

55. Kennedy basically ran the Kerry campaign

Shrum was the chief strategist. Cahill was his former Chief of Staff. Devine is partners with Shrum and was the Chief spokesman. Kennedy was not in the back of the bus this year. Not at all.

[AuntiBush]

130. Excellent question!

I think everyone should look at this very seriously! Thanks for jogging my memory on this issue!

[FightinNewDem]

113. WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

Finally, someone gets it right!

The DLC is NOT the same thing as the Democratic Party establishment.

Only a fool would call Bob Shrum, Minyon Moore, Donna Brazille, James Carville, et al DLCers.

[KittyWampus]

18. Please! Now It's Not Just The DLC Running The Party. Throw In NDN

the NDN wasn't even MENTIONED on this forum until a short while ago.

But they are running things.

And Dean is NO OUTSIDER. It is intellectually dishonest to say he is.

[Q]

25. I mentioned the NDN because...

...when you do a search on Rosenberg on google...it brings up this site:

http://www.simonforchair.org/

The NDN Story
Founded by Simon Rosenberg in 1996, The New Democrat Network (NDN) is a powerful, national network of leaders committed to modernizing progressive politics and building a durable Democratic majority.

--------

It seems quite relevant to me.

[KittyWampus]

32. Sounds Like A Good Mission Statement To Me.

Anyway, I have no dog in this fight.

Methinks Dean & Rosenberg should BOTH work at the DNC.

[sherilocks]

62. Rosenberg supports the Iraqi invasion

that takes him off my list.

[IndianaGreen]

67. Exactly, Rosenberg is a prowar Likudnik

He is a Democratic version of a Richard Perle or Paul Wolfowitz. Is that the sort of chap you want running the DNC? Do you want to continue to use the same old formula that has brought nothing but defeat at the polls in 2002 and 2004?

[SOS]

73. Rosenberg

is more supportive of Bush's Iraq war than Pat Buchanan, Tucker Carlson and John McLaughlin.
We can't differentiate ourselves (or win an election) if our Party Chairman is more hawkish than the right-wing pundits.

[sherilocks]

75. Have you additional information about Rosenberg?

I really want to know more about Rosenberg's views on Iraq and exactly how hawkish he is. None of the three that you mentioned, regardless of their politics, support the war.

[sherilocks]

74. I don't know if he's a Likudnik or not

since I don't know that much about him, nor do I care. His statement wasn't nearly as hawkish as Perle, Wolfowitz, or even Leiberman. But any reasonable thinking politician at this point who still says he supports the Iraqi invasion gets an F- in my rating system.

[DaedelusNemo]

109. It is mystifying why he would still support the Iraq invasion.

Enough that i would want to hear his explanation before i'd consider backing him ... as long as the alternative is also committed to a major effort to reform the party's approach to media and to the internet. Those things are so crucial as the fundamental development that has to take place that i could be tempted to let him in there long enough to set that machinery up and then demote him to some operational capacity.

I would probably prefer (not having heard the explanation yet) to have Dean so long as he was going to attend to those infrastructure issues i mentioned. Besides, i like the way he talks (and i'm from the south!) and backing down seriously needs to be over as a democratic strategy. You're not picking up supporters that way, only incurring contempt and poisoning the well.

[Gay Ranger]

14. Mavericks...

are never rewarded with positions of power and influence by the powers that be. The elders want someone they can influence and contol. Dean is not of that mold.

[DaveinMD]

16. I completely agree

I really want Dean to get this post despite my many argument with Dean backers here. I think he'd be a great party chair. I said so before the election.

[Gay Ranger]

23. It has become obvious...

that the bosses have adopted the "don't make waves" strategy. Dean is like the guy at a diving competition who would do a cannonball just to shake things up.

[DaedelusNemo]

108. Playing defense only works when you have enough to defend

Once you've lost all branches of government, you're not protecting territory anymore. Defense at that point only guarantees slow death. The strategy has not worked. New strategy.

Random action is better than status quo at this point.

I propose picking a good idea instead, but still.

[Angelique]

64. If we don't put Dean in charge, we will get "H" bombed..

.. and lose another election big time, even witout fraud this time, before we even get started.. I loved Clinton in his 1st term, but he and Hillary did whatever they needed to get and keep the power, at the detriment of our political future.. They had a hand in controlling this election, even in killing Dean, and Kerry.. They are poised to take the helm in 2008, with "H Bomb" Hillary at the top of the ticket.. There is not a moderate or conservative that wouldn't walk through FIRE to vote against her.. and we know it.. Oh oh, speaking of FIRE, I'm ready.. FLAME AWAY

[WI_DEM]

2. I don't deny that this could be a big factor

or that I've felt the same way. I'm hoping that Grass roots pressure will prevail, but we will see.

[Mojambo]

3. The party bosses have bosses.

WE are the bosses.

Scream loud, long and hard. And if they ignore you, leave and take your money with you.

That's my plan anyway...

[Cyrano]

8. Nice thought, but not necessarily so.

In 2002, Janet Reno ran in the primary for governor of Florida. The party honchos decided she couldn't win, so they backed some no-name businessman who nobody ever heard of.

Because of their endorsements and money, Janet lost the primary. And then the no-name went on to lose in a landslide to Jeb.

I saw much of this first-hand, but had no means to stop it from happening. Would Janet Reno have beaten Jeb Bush? I don't know. But she sure as hell would have smothered him under a ton of facts and truth, and pointed out all the damage he's done to Florida. She has a bigger set than the no-name the party bosses chose.

[Mojambo]

11. I think we're in a different place now

I think people are more aware of the battle raging within the Democratic party now then they were before the debacles of 2002 and 2004.

Grassroots influence has increased by a significant margin since then. Our voice is potentially much louder now.

[Q]

20. But do 'loud voices' make a difference...

...in influencing the makeup of the leadership? And it makes one wonder that if the 'party' isn't interested in things like election reform...why would they care what The People wanted in the way of leadership or agenda?

Perhaps I've just grown too cynical over the last four years of watching the party being used as Bush's floormat and rubber stamp for war? But I get the impression...especially after the bread and circus election fraud 'protest'...that the real decisions are being made behind the doors of 'smoke filled rooms' and not in any kind of democratic process where the people have a voice or a vote.

[Mojambo]

27. Yeah, I hear you

That's why I don't get the sentiment some people here have towards people who consider leaving the Democratic party for other options (Green party primarily)

I'm giving the party one last chance to do the right thing. I will loudly declare my preference and make it known that this decision IS a dealbreaker for me and my money. If I'm ignored again I'll be leaving without a pang of guilt (even with DUers calling me a traitor and "part of the problem")

[Q]

35. You're obviously not alone in feeling that way...

...and the next couple of years will give us some good insight into which direction the party will be forced to take. It will discourage many Democrats if they stay on the present course of transforming the party into a subsidiary of the Right.

[sherilocks]

59. Would you mind holding the door open for me?

I'll be right behind you if the DNC doesn't do the right thing this time around.

[Cornus]

9. I agree

That's my plan too.

[Tinoire]

12. That's the way I see it. No (insert word)ation without representation!

These people have totally forgotten for whom they work!

Newsflash to the Dem establishment- you do not work for Space Systems Loral- you work for the people.

[roenyc]

4. I hope you are wrong too. nt

[Q]

6. Well...I've made my 'prediction'...

...we'll have to wait to see if it's correct or just another 'conspiracy theory'.

[Eloriel]

7. I agree with you, BUT --

I'm wondering exactly how the vote will go down. Will this election be fixed too? Really, I'd like to know.

Of course, there are quite a few candidates, so that complicates matters as well.

Dean said he is getting good reception outside Washington, and he's called (tho not yet, as of last Fri, talked to) each and everyone DNC member who will be voting. He said he's getting less receptiveness from the inside the beltway folks. THEY don't want to change.

And if you're talking about the DLC, they don't even want the grassroots to be involved (other than possibly sending money -- "Send money, then STFU.").

[Q]

36. I guess we'll see just how much power the DLC has in this process...

...and in which direction they'll be driving the party for at least the next four years.

Given their comments about Dean and other non-new democrats in the past...they don't want to get anywhere near a populist candidate.

[Tinoire]

10. I have the same doubt... Seems Dean isn't quite playing by their rules

Seems they'd be willing to give it to him if only he promises with sugar on it that he won't run for President in 2008.

Trying to get old Dean out of the way again lol. What a CONTEMPTIBLE lot! It's pretty bad when a fiscally conservative Centrist like Dean doesn't suit them.

===

Members believe Kerry preparing for 2008 run
His fight over DNC is seen as signaling continued ambition
By Hans Nichols

(snip)

Dean has run into opposition among some congressional leaders who are demanding that he foreswear running again in 2008. Dean has been coy in his response to those lawmakers who want an assurance that he won't mount another bid, lawmakers say.

Doubts about Dean’s own ambitions appear to be hurting him in the House. “It’s just an obvious conflict of interest,” said Rep. Al Wynn (D-Md.).

http://thehill.com/news/11242004/kerry.aspx

[janx]

34. The crazy thing about all of this is the fact that we can't trust

the media. Dean's message from the blog reminded us of that fact. We have no idea who is behind the crap rolled out by the media every day.

I have to believe that while some Dems and *plenty* of right wingnuts do not want Dean in any kind of leadership position, he did enough research and careful planning before announcing his candidacy for this position. He's been through it before.

[lojasmo]

116. Except it's a non-issue

Dean has SAID he won't run in 2008 if he's DNC chair.

[tjdee]

15. Or maybe Dean isn't as popular as people think he is?

???

I don't think Dean will get it either. And, for the record, I'm not actively opposed to the idea.

[KittyWampus]

21. Pretty Much My Thoughts. I Have No Preference.

Dean would certainly be competent.

And having him as Chair would prevent him from running in '08- a bonus.

[Q]

24. Do you mean 'popular'...

...in the sense of having the support of the People or the party machine? I'm not sure his popularity will have anything to do with whether he's chosen.

[tjdee]

29. In either sense.

His support from the people didn't exactly translate into votes, and if the rank and filers don't particularly care for him obviously the party heads have no reason to.

If the party machine is *ignoring* the rank and filers based on their interests (finacial, whatever), that's a different story obviously--but again he wouldn't have party machine support.

I think this thing is a crap shoot. Yet another decision made on how people (party heads, probably) FEEL rather than a rational look at who has the best plans for the party overall.

[Q]

33. It's not a 'crap shoot' at all...

...when you look at how the party has been structured since the 90s.

Does anyone think it's a coincidence that the party insiders have 'discouraged' the more populist and liberal candidates from seeking leadership roles? The minority leadership in the congress and senate will pretty much line up with whomever they choose for the DNC chair.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. the party bosses may end up without much of a party

if they don't wise up.

[txaslftist]

39. Give the lady a cigar...

I'm afraid she's right.

[KurtNYC]

22. Dean can raise money, MoveOn can raise money

Overnight, in millions from grass roots people.

Can the DLC do that now? What can the DLC sell to their backers if they don't have the seats and the votes to get things done? I think there has been a shift. IMHO, the DNC needs Dean more than Dean needs the DNC.

[Piperay]

30. I think the same

it's going to be one of their little hand picked insiders. x(

[txaslftist]

37. After watching Chris Heinz' brief gracing us with his presence...

yesterday, I'm afraid you are right. Several people thought the timing was odd, coming on the heels of Dean's announcement.

It seems plain to me that Yale still wants to hold the reins, and that we have yet to shake off the effete elitism that seems so damaging to those of us trying to take us in a populist direction.

[Q]

38. Yes...the timing was coincidental I'm sure...

...but you know that they're doing a full court press when they send out someone to deliver the talking points to political forums.

[txaslftist]

40. Not just someone, the (step)prince himself.

Out of curiosity, does Dean ever visit DU?

[Q]

41. If Dean has ever been here...

...he hasn't identified himself that I'm aware of...

[janx]

98. Well, somebody pushed the news of Chris's endorsement

over to CNN. It was announced there on the same day he posted here--there's nothing wrong with that, but it bolsters your point.

[KnowerOfLogic]

42. Agree. He won't get it, and it has n.th. to do w/ his qualifications.

I don't really get it, but the powers that be do not like him. Probably cuz he's not a 'team player.'

[candy331]

45. I personally don't want Dean to get it, I want him to run in 08 but

of course that is his choice to make and if he feels he can do much good there then so be it. That being said if the "powers that be" do
elect him he will be hamstrung, they will set the rules and Dean will be walking a tight rope. I can see Dems on news segments pandering and apologizing instead of being in unison with him. You don't grow backbone in a short time and some will never grow spines because deep down don't have same views, nor convictions and some will always retain the "go along to get along" attitude even as they see it doesn't work. The Dean who speaks and fights now will not be the same Dean if Chair. You gotta know that no way will he be given free rein and I presume to say he will be miserable and his supporters will be wondering in amazement as to what happened. For Instance, the comment Dean made about pickup trucks and confederate flags will never issue from his lips as chair nor will the words the world w/o Saddam is not safer. Dean was free then and could speak, as chair he will be constrained. That is my prediction and I stand by it.

[Q]

53. I had a similar opinion...

...in a post before I scrolled up to read yours. If they did give Dean the chair they could temporarily make it a 'ceremonial' position and simply keep him out of the way of the third wayers.

I think you're 'prediction' might be more accurate than mind. That some are asking him to 'promise' not to run in 2008 if he gets the chair shows that they're very nervous about something.

[David Zephyr]

43. I certainly hope that you are wrong, Q.

I have to have something to hope for with regards to the Party these days. Crossing my fingers.

[PassingFair]

44. Don't just hope, get ye to your dem clubs and drum up support!

AND CRACK THE BAT!

Folks for Dean should step up right about now and make a donation to DFA.
I suggest that the thousands of you that support Dean for DNC Chair, but didn't support his bid for the presidency make a token donation of $25.00 or so to show the money men where the money will be siphoned off.

My money supporting local candidates will go only to DFA, where I can be sure they will be vetted. Progressives only.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

[Eloriel]

127. EXCELLENT POINT -- SHow 'em the MONEY, make it for Dean

and let them know that he and he alone (among the candidates) has the power to raise the cash to get things done.

[dolstein]

46. More messianic B.S. from the tin foil brigade

Ok, I get it . . . if Howard Dean doesn't become DNC chair, then it must be because all those fat, cigar smoking party bosses and DLC cronies conspired against it.

Puh-leeze. Howard Dean isn't entitled to the DNC chairmanship. Nobody is. There's no conspiracy against Howard Dean. There are actually plenty of perfectly valid reasons for not making him chair. You just can't see them.

Besides, the days of the party bosses is long over. The group selecting the DNC chair includes many women and minorities and is overwhelmingly liberal. They are, of course, Democrats, not socialists or Greens. I think it's time you and the rest of the DU community accepted the fact that the Democratic Party is run by Democrats.

[Kahuna]

47. Thanks for that, Dolstein. The part about...

The Democratic party being run by DEMOCRATS, specifically. Not socialists. Not GREENS.

The day I decide to not be a Democrat any more like so many on this thread have already done... long ago...I give up my right to make demands and have expectations.

[Q]

50. Socialists and Greens?

Go ahead and thank Dolstein for bringing THAT straw man...but no one has even suggested that the party was being run by socialists, Greens or commies for that matter.

Don't include me with those who have 'decided not to be Democrats'. I plan on sticking around to see the DLC exposed for their collusion with the Bushies and the fact that they no more represent the Democratic party than the Neocons represent Republicans.

[Q]

49. At least you've changed your rhetoric...

...from 'another conspiracy theory' to 'messianic bullshit'. Never mind...I noticed that you threw in the standard 'tin foil' reference.

You'll notice that I didn't assume that anyone was 'entitled' to the chair. And I didn't say that there was a 'conspiracy' against him. I'm sure that you're aware of this...it's just that you can't seem to present an argument in these particular threads without first trying to discredit the messenger with overtones of conspiracies and tin foil.

I won't await your evidence that there are no 'party bosses'. And I'll request but never expect a short list of these 'liberals' and 'minorities' you insist have a say in selecting the Chair or have any real influence in the party.

When can we drop this silly charade that the New Democrats insist on playing? This is no longer the party of the 'big tent' or inclusiveness. It's the party of litmus tests for candidates that must tow the 'new democratic' line or never get a seat at the table of power. We know why Dean or Kucinich or any of liberal, progressive and populist candidates never made it to first base. It's not because...as the DLCers like to say...that America has become more conservative. It's because they and their populist agendas don't fit in with the New Democratic model of right wing politics disguised as a miracle of the 'third way'.

[CWebster]

58. You mean like the ones at the Democratic Convention?

The majority whose position was against Iraq but were instructed to zip it?

[sherilocks]

60. I was just going to post that little fact

So thanks, Webster. When I originally heard that, you could hear my groan all the way from Florida to Boston. The truth is that the platform for the party is conceived by the platform committee at a separate meeting; (last year in Ft. Lauderdale.) Delegates are supposed to just lock-step in agreement. Which apparently they did, even Dennis Kucinich. If I'm wrong on the last statement, which is possible, I'm sure I'll hear about it.

[IndianaGreen]

68. The Democratic Party is NOT run by Democrats!

I think it's time you and the rest of the DU community accepted the fact that the Democratic Party is run by Democrats.

If Democrats ran the Democratic Party, you would not have seen so many people with "D" after their names voting for the Iraq War Resolution or for PATRIOT Act.

The Beltway is not America!

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Opposing the war, PATRIOT, and NAFTA are now not Democratic ideas?

That tells me a lot about how far to the right the Democratic establishment has gone!

[Q]

71. Not to speak for anyone else...

...but I'd like to think that every informed American would be against attacking a country under false pretenses and legislation that weakens the intent of the Constitution.

What's next? Will the Party want loyalty oaths?

[sherilocks]

76. If you belong to the DEC, at least in Florida

you do have to sign a loyalty oath to the party and all its candidates.

[Q]

82. I was of course joking...

...but as you can see...any dissent from the party line brings out those who think towing the party line is actually some kind of loyalty.

It's not being a loyal American to allow a 'president' to turn our country into a virtual dictatorship. Neither is it being loyal or patriotic to turn a blind eye as your party does nothing to try to stop it and in some cases actually participates with despotism.

[FightinNewDem]

114. C'mon, Dolestein

It's much more fun to envision a group of Montgomery Burns wannabes huddled in an oak-paneled room, sipping brandy and smoking cigars while plotting the further oppression of the proletariat.

I mean, look at Bruce Reed...he just exudes evil, doesn't he?

[Sterling]

119. Actually he does...

He looks like a total creep. Is that Ralph Reed? It sure looks like him. If you don't know better to trust anyone with that haircut you are a mark waiting to happen.

[Jim Sagle]

124. Baloney.

[IStriker]

48. I agree with you and I'll be VERY surprised if he gets it.

[Q]

52. I think we should be discouraging Dean from taking the chair...

...instead of hoping that he gets it. I wouldn't be surprised (going against my own theory) if they gave him the chair to keep under control and out of any future presidential races.

The point is that the New Democrats think that liberalism and progressive politics are dead and gone. And if it's not dead they plan on suffocating the last remnants with the politics of character assassination and conquer and divide.

[candy331]

107. It seems that Dean either wants the position and is seeking it or he knows

he want get it and will move on to next step. I hope he does not get it but remain as a force for change outside. It may well be that Dean will not make any headway with the powers that be and will have to move on.

[Selatius]

54. I think people are afraid of change in the upper echelons

because it means the lay of the land changes, and that could ruin any advantage they have or interests they have with the present lay. I think Dean is going to be as much a victim of a power struggle as a victim of sheer bureaucratic inertia running against him. If you are heavily vested in the existing status quo and cannot control the oncoming changes, then you would naturally fear a change that could potentially hurt you or weaken you.

Whether or not Dean is a true economic populist is beside the point. The point is he has become a symbol of change to a sizeable number of Democrats, and that's got people who profit from the existing order scared.

Democrats who rely too heavily on corporate cash to the point of compromising themselves is one thing, but Democrats who are simply in it for the power, prestige, connections, money, and pension plan who aren't interested in rocking the boat when it's time to rock are a whole different issue. Anyone who would be a reformer would have to deal with these two groups at the same time.

[DaedelusNemo]

110. What's left to protect?

Indeed, being out of power lets them shed some entanglements without being punished for it and propose bold legislation without worrying about whether it will actually pass.

[CWebster]

56. Q, as always,

gets it.

[Catchawave]

57. I wish they'd let us be part of the DNC chair selection process, otherwise

it's still politics as usual :(

[Walt Starr]

61. I think you're right, the PNAC/DLC/NDN has it sewn up

They put up their evil guy (i.e. Tim Roemer), and they put up the good guy (i.e. Simon Rosenberg) to counter the evil guy[]/i].

Either way, it's business as usual.

This is the line I've drawn in the sand. Dean or independence and no votes for Democrats ever again.

[Q]

66. Nah...they call Dean the 'loud' or 'screaming' guy...

...but it is business as usual. Think we can embarrass them into going with someone else other than the status quo?

Probably not.

[IndianaGreen]

63. The Establishment did not want Dean to win the nomination

partly in part because they simply didn't like the riff-raff that supported Dean, that's us in case you are wondering. You have to understand that the Democratic Establishment supported the invasion of Iraq for they too had dreams of huge profits to be reaped after the hapless Iraqis were "liberated" from our former employee Saddam.

They still don't like us!

[Q]

65. Yeah...I know we're the riff-raff...

...and they hate that they can't 'convince' us that ANY and ALL wars are good. But good God...do they think we're stupid? Do they actually think that we'd sit by and say nothing as they gave tax cuts to the rich while telling we of the canon fodder that they couldn't afford armor for the troops? Do they think that we don't know they want to plunder social security and every other program meant to serve the people instead of them?

There is sickening war profiteering going on while US soldiers pay the ultimate price and innocent Iraqis are slaughtered so that neocon and neodem corporations can fatten their profit margins. They expect us to accept this in the name of some phony war on terrorism?

Liberation, freedom and democracy. They don't want these in America and they certainly have no intention of bringing them for the Iraqis.

[Eloriel]

128. Riff Raff

Ya know what breaks my heart? REALLY breaks my heart? And I'm remembering here how the DLC denounced us as unsavory whackos and such.

It's this: You go to any Dean function -- any at all, anywhere, any time -- and the people you'll see are from across all age groups and just about all economic groups. You'll find a mix of ethnicities, and as much diversity in all areas as a regular cross section of America. You'll also find a pretty good cross section of political thought as well.

When I saw him in Atlanta Friday a week ago, I saw people who looked like college professors, a young guy who I think skipped (high) school to be there, middle agers like me and older, young 20s and 30s hipsters and professional people, and POLITICOS as well, with one newly elected DFA State Senator showing up and also our newish State Dem Party Chair (snake in the grass) Bobby Kahn towards the end of the meeting (tho he was NOT there as a Dean supporter, I can assure you).

Riff raff indeed. Dean supporters ARE America.

[Dr Fate]

72. The DEMS will generally always make the wrong choices.

Its the one thing you can count on besides DEMS being afraid of what Karl Rove & Judy Woodruff will say about them.

Apparently they will need to lose 3 or four MORE elections b/f they shed their habit of ignoring the hard working DEM base.

[Q]

78. I'm not so sure they MIND losing elections as long as...

...they're promised some of the loot. How much are Dems willing to give up for a seat at the table? Looks like they're willing to give up free and fair elections and allow Bush his own personal Torturer General.

And when we take umbrage to these insults to liberty...they call us 'focus groups' or 'fringe elements' or imply that we're traitors to the party. Orwell is indeed rolling over in his grave...as well as the Founders of this once-great nation.

[greenohio]

77. Yawn.

Blah blah conspriacy blah blah DLC blah blah poor Dean.

[Q]

79. Well said...well done...

...you must be so proud of yourself as you defend the indefensible as OUR country goes down the shitter.

I'm not bothered so much by your gadfly appearances as much as your inability to respond to the topics at hand.

[greenohio]

80. Well its good to know that at least

I bother you. You are all "hate Dems" all the time. "Vote against Dems" you say.

[CWebster]

81. Don't worry, be happy

Social security on the chopping block. Rejoice!

[Q]

83. Well...that's what a gadfly does...

...but someone should tell you that you're not very good at it.

Do you really think that accusing me of 'hating' Dems is much of a counterpoint? Wow. That's lowering the bar for yourself.

You must really think you're being clever with that same old tired claim that I said 'vote against Dems'....when you know that thread was about VOTING AGAINST DLC DEMS. You do realize there's a difference...don't you? Or do you even care that you're being disengenous?

[greenohio]

84. Is Kerry a Dem or not?

Kerry is DLC. Are you saying that John Kerry is not a Dem? Did you not advocate voting against him?

[Q]

85. The DLCers around here argued that Kerry WASN'T DLC...

...so which is it?

And please tell me...why do you ask and answer a question in the same sentence? Are you looking for a dialogue or just trying to waste my time?

Nowhere have I said that DLCers aren't Dems. Those are your words. I have advocated not voting for DLCers because I 'believe' that they're trying to pull OUR party in a dangerous, self-destructive direction.

Al Gore was my choice for 2004...but the 'party insiders' (like From and others in the DLC) helped to exile him and made sure his new found populism and anti-DLC views never had a platform or voice.

I voted for Kerry. But that's not enough for the New Democrats. They want blind faith and loyalty. That's not going to happen.

[greenohio]

87. Having trouble with an answer?

I asked if he was a DEM. Apparently you are having trouble deciding. Let me know when you decide.

"Nowhere have I said that DLCers aren't Dems."

OK. Here let me help you with your logic then.

You advocate voting against DLCers.
You appear to agree that DLCers are Dems.
Therefore ergo, you advocate voting against Dems.

Now I didn't say that you advocate voting against all Dems. Just certain ones part of an org called the DLC. They may be good Dems. They may be the best that can be elected in their area. You don't care. They are DLC Dems and them Dems gotta go.

It is the epitome of divisive. Believe or not, them DLC Dems have supporters and they don't appreciate you telling people to vote against them. It is THAT very attitude that gives Dean a bad name....and sadly its not his fault.

[IndianaGreen]

89. Nice example of causal fallacy

You advocate voting against DLCers.
You appear to agree that DLCers are Dems.
Therefore ergo, you advocate voting against Dems.

I wonder how Zell Miller would fit into your equation?

Just because a politician has a "D" after their name, it doesn't follow that he/she would vote for the issues that one cares about. Should we mention NAFTA, PATRIOT, and IWR as three examples in which politicians with "D" after their names voted against the wishes of the majority of Democratic rank-and-file, and hurt the interests of the American people in the process?

[greenohio]

93. Zell is a traitor by definition.

We really aren't that far apart here. Just because a politician has a DLC after their name, it doesn't follow that he/she would vote against the issues one cares about. My point is, and always been, that there are many, many good Dems in the DLC....just as there are some bad Dems outside of it. Telling everyone to vote against them just because they are DLC does not help the progressive cause.

[IndianaGreen]

99. DLC and progressive are mutually exclusive

There is nothing progressive about supporting the war in Iraq, PATRIOT, NAFTA, and Bush's tax giveaways to the rich and his gutting of Social Security. But then, the neoconish PPI does have "progressive" as part of its name.

[greenohio]

100. And that is where we will disagree.

Kerry is rather progressive. There are many many progressive DLCers. Despite the rhetoric on DU.

[IndianaGreen]

102. Kerry voted for PATRIOT and for the war in Iraq

Anyone that votes to give the federal government dictatorial powers at the expense of my civil liberties is NOT a progressive. Anyone that gives Bush the authority to go to war is as irresponsible as giving the keys of the car to someone that is totally drunk.

[IStriker]

115. I don't know if Kerry is DLC, but I do know he's a wholly owned property..

of Soros and the monied bunch. Soros wasn't upset with Bush until he made a little more transparent some of Soros' money operations. Then he had to be wiped out at any cost. Before that, Soros had no dog in the fight (or 2 dogs in the fight and thought he couldn't lose.)

I don't owe blind allegiance to any branch of the Democrat party. I just call them like I see them and I don't care to be a serf to anybody.

[Dr Fate]

86. I agree with Q- and you can NEVER accuse me of not supporting...

...DEMS or Kerry for the past 6 years.

Go ahead, just try to find one pre-2004 election post of mine that does not ardently DEFEND democrats.

Whatever you think his motives are, Q is right. All of his predictions have been basically right as well.

Sure, Kerry is a Democrat, but so is Howard Dean and so is Dr Fate-what is your point?

[greenohio]

88. Good for you.

Its good to have some people here who supports Dems. Some days they are easier to find than others.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greenohio]

91. Sad state of affairs Q

Its sad you must attack me in this way. Can't you see all of us Dems are on the same team?

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greenohio]

94. Once again Q

Attacking me does not help your point.

[Dr Fate]

95. Define "support" and define "DEMS" b/f you assume we agree.

People who kiss Bush's ass or allow him to roll over them are not real "DEMS" and I do not "support" them anymore.

So good for me.

[greenohio]

96. Which brings us back to the my question...

is John Kerry a Dem?

I find it sad that I actually have to ask.

[Dr Fate]

105. He has (had?) great potential to do what real DEMS wanted...

...but instead of doing what real DEMS on the ground wanted, he did what he thought the media & "swing voters" wanted.

But he ultimatley refused to tell the truth about Bush- and let the media & Rove roll over him again & again. Not our proudest moments.

Rather than making excuses or ranking DEMS, I prefer to point out what people who happen to have Ds behind their names are doing right, and what they are doing wrong.

Call it tough love if you want, but any politican who cant tell the blunt truth about Bush b/c they are scared of what the media, Rove or "Swing voters" will do as opposed to what their hard working DEM base wants are not very solid DEMS.

[Renew Deal]

121. What are you talking about?

We all hate Dems? Who says "Vote against Dems?" It's not all of us. I know that because I never said that. Are you capable of responding to Q's post without unfairly labeling all of us?

[cestpaspossible]

122. That about sums it up...

[YNGW]

97. Once again, who runs the party?

I see people saying the DLC runs the party, and the NDN, and party elites. But I have yet to see anyone answer who runs the party.

Here's the answer.

Bill Clinton runs the damn party, and no one is going to sit in the DNC chair unless he approves of it. He's going to pull the strings of the party and no entity and no individual is going to get in his way. Face the music.

[janx]

101. The party bosses aren't the ones voting on this.

It's clear from the chaos already present in the media that a lot of people in D.C. are trying to affect the vote, but in the end, it's mostly DNC people from various states who will determine the outcome.

It's ultimately up to them.

[Q]

103. Do you really think it's 'up to them'?

And how do you think Clinton's pick became DNC chair in the first place?

It's similar to a corporation in that the Board and CEO determines who becomes the president of the company...not the individual shareholders.

[janx]

104. All I know is what Dean and others have written about this. n/t

[bigwillq]

106. I hope you're wrong and I feel the DNC would be foolish

to not seriously consider Dean. I feel Dean is the right man for the job in so many ways.

[Q]

111. Moderators...

...why did you kill this thread by moving it to a place where no one can see it? This is disturbing...especially when many threads on the same subject remain where this one was started.

How about a little fairness? Move this thread back to where it belongs.

[H2O Man]

112. Maybe

people can try to influence others to come to this area .... if one thread is moved, perhaps more could be. This area seems to have the potential to allow DU to address some serious issues that the "mainstream" democrats may take an interest in.

There had been a question about having DU endorse a candidate. I believe that as DU is a discussion forum, it's a good idea to have discussions focused on the DNC Chair. And even polls. I do not think that DU as a discussion forum can actually endorse any candidate, although certainly the moderator can.

In regard to Dean, I think one of the most important things about him is that his ideas have the ability to attract non-democrats to the party. When he was first running in the primaries, a number of my conservative relatives found him appealing. I believe that his opposition to the Bush/Cheney invasion of Iraq will become much more of a shared American value this year. This week's TIME has an article that quotes some military leaders, who make clear that our military can not sustain the war effort at the current pace. That means either the administration will cut and run, and say goodbye to the huge financial investment they have made in Iraqi oil .... or there will be a draft.

Once there is a draft, Dean will become very attractive compared to those candidates who support the war.

[Q]

126. You may indeed be right...

...but this was an ongoing discussion. I would be glad to move this discussion there if others would follow. But the other forum is new and not many seem to post there...yet.

I will strive to post there and get involved in that forum.

I wish that I could agree with you about the coming opposition to the Bush/Cheney invasion. Nationalism is a very powerful force to overcome...as we found out during Vietnam.

[Q]

125. Thank you...

...DU (moderators) for returning this thread. I realize it's not very important in the larger scheme of things...but it does represent a different point of view on this subject and deserves an equal audience.

That said...it should be noted that this thread is about pure speculation. I have no way of knowing that it's a 'done deal' or that Dean doesn't have a chance. It's simply an observation based on a set of circumstances over time.

(Just stirring the pot a bit)

[Sterling]

117. I hope he starts a new party.

I will support him if he does.

[bklyncowgirl]

118. Sadly, I tend to agree.

Unless Dean has gotten some strong support from the state party leaders and some sort of hands off agreement from people like Bill Clinton, he's not going to win this.

The powers that be, whoever the hell they are, are dead set against someone who would take the sort of risks that Dean would. Of course the downside of that is that if the party doesn't start taking risks and standing on principle, the one thing that's gaurenteed is that they will continue to lose.

[Renew Deal]

120. I worry about this also.

I am wondering if someone can "get to" the 440 voters. Maybe a few threats? I don't know. But I worry about it too.

[Eloriel]

129. Strong arm tactics aren't out of the question in my mind

Some of these state delegates are pretty strongly controlled, I would imagine.

And then there's sweet talking. Just as an example, wouldn't YOU vote for Clinton's pick if he personally asked you to? I'm not saying that would happen, but it's not impossible either. Or, some of his surrogates (Carville, Begala) could do the footwork on that, leaving Clinton "above the fray."

Just how many votes would they need to change? I do NOT think it's out of bounds to consider this as a possibility.

[Clarkie1]

123. I believe you are right n/t

[quaker bill]

131. You could be right

We will soon see.

It would be unfortunate and a sign that the democrats just haven't had enough losing yet.