Immigration....why are we so different?

[serryjw]

Is it so smart? I know the history of our country my grandparents also came from the 'old country". I know what is enscibed on the plaque of Lady liberty Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door. BUT why is it so difficult to migrate to other countries,like Canada, and its so easy to immigrate here. You get extra points if you speak French when appying to canada. Why do we allow people to migrate here whom do not speak English, have no education, have no skills to make a living and think that our streets are paved with gold. I wish we could feed the entire planet,give everyone shelter, educate everyone and give everyone basic medical treatment but it's not realistic.
I live in Denver and its a foreign country when you go to our county hospital no one speaks english....I have no idea how many are citizens and how many are on green cards. I know some of these people certainly work very hard and contribute to our economy...BUT how much are they draining from it when they have 5 kids?
No flame.....Can we have a respectful conversation on what is the future of immigartion in America?

[DrWeird]

1. What languages, other than English, do you speak?

Frankly, I'm ashamed most Americans speak only one language.

And for some reason they think it's superior to other languages.

[serryjw]

2. I agree that learning mutiple languages is a benefit

Not the point. If I was moving to a foreign country I would learn their language. We have millions of people whom are living in the US that speak only Spanish. They came here to seek the pot of gold. There is no pot of gold if you can't communicate...English is the language of this country even if we have federal forms printed in multiple languages. I don't want them to forget their customs...just learn English and have a skill that they can make a living with.

[arcos]

5. if they immigrate to the US...

in most cases minimum wage IS their pot of gold, because they would probably never earn so much money in their own countries. So, regardless of whether they can communicate in English or not, they are improving their wages and can send money to their families.

[candy]

4. What language would you suggest that Americans learn?

I agree with you that we are linguistically challenged but one of the reasons is that in many other countries English is mandatory from early elementary school. They therefore grow up speaking 2 languages quite comfortably.

In the US you would never find agreement on which language to teach as a second language,so it's left up to the individual school systems or persons.

I don't know if England has a mandatory second language. Maybe someone at DU will know.

[DrWeird]

7. Spanish, for starters.

I'll bet there are more spanish speaking Americans than there are French speaking Canadians.

[Maestro]

12. These kids speak two languages comfortably

Bilingual education is available in many models, including those that include native English speakers, but Americans are scared of languages. It is really sad and the reason why these programs are often vilified as hampering immigrants "assimilation." I hate that word.

[Nederland]

25. Its not just Americans

Being married to a first generation American, I can tell you that a significant portion of the opposition to bilingual eduction comes from immigrants who want to make sure that their children learn the language.

[Maestro]

28. Yes, because they are misinformed by Americans

and their own misunderstanding of how to learn not just a new language but literacy in that new language.

Acquiring Literacy in English

Transfer of literacy skills from Spanish to English

[Nederland]

30. I guess I leave it up to them

If they believe that "English only" is the best for their kids that's fine. I try not to tell other people how to raise their kids.

[Maestro]

31. Neither do I

They are fully capable of choosing which program to place their children. I just want the option to choose.

[Nederland]

44. Sorry

But most Democrats are opposed to school choice.

[Maestro]

45. Sorry

but I am talking about programs available in the child's local school not a different school. Don't even insinuate that I support that crap!

[forgethell]

9. Not superior,

Just more familiar, and what they like to speak in their own countries. What's wrong with that?

[DrWeird]

13. No, there's a superiority complex.

"I want everybody to speak Enlish, just like Jesus did."

As for what's wrong with it, it's a form of nationalism.

[AngryAmish]

29. Most Americans only speak one language for a good reason

Because they only encounter english speakers. It makes sense in France or Switzerland to learn multiple languages because those are much smaller countries and they encounter many foreigners. Some people do not like foreign travel or cannot afford it.

We are a LARGE country. Those who travel a lot tend know a foreign language, as well as very highly educated people.

But people in cultures where they are likely to meet very few foreigners speak a foreign language at similar rates to the US.

[Maestro]

34. Perhaps it was that way in the past

But their are many ethnic communities now in the US where one could practice another language with ease; especially Spanish. This scares xenophobes though.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Besides, in the early twentieth century, immigrant children were

bullied and shamed into giving up their heritage languages.

Yes, everyone who lives here should learn English, but I believe that cruel methods such as punishing children for speaking their family's language in school, even on the playground, or ridiculing their family's heritage (A graduate school acquaintance said that a teacher told her father that his native Yiddish wasn't a real language, but "an ignorant peddlars' jargon.")created an identification with the abuser in some cases.

This identification led to a disdain for even learning foreign languages, especially after World War I, when 25 states banned the teaching of German, and a couple even banned the teaching of any foreign language for a few years.

It is ironic that this nation of people whose ancestors spoke every language in the world has an allergy to speaking anything but English.

I've even heard people get upset when immigrants sitting at the other end of a bus are speaking their native language. No, dummy, they're not talking about you. They don't even know you're there.

[murray hill farm]

3. Well i speak English, but

my great grandparents did not when the came to the USA from Germany. My great grandfather on my dads side came from Ireland..so it was rather english...but what i wonder is..if that is how you see this, did your great grands come from england or Scotland or someplace where English was their native language? or...maybe we in the USA should all speak the real native tongue to this day..the real native language of the true native Americans.

[serryjw]

6. it appears we can't have a conversation with out feelings getting hurt.

I said my grandparents came from the old country. They learned enough English to start a business, emplyee people and make payroll. What is the point of coming here if you can only get hired to wash dishes?

[murray hill farm]

14. the point, i think....

is that immigrants are needed in this country or any..to do just that menial labor..that we don't want to do...and are encouraged to come for just that reason...and perhaps the reason that nothing really is done about immigration is just that very reason. my feelings are not hurt...no problem...was just reacting to your post.

[RafterMan]

17. They're not needed for menial labor

They're needed for menial labor *at menial wages*.

Maybe, in a developed economy, it's just going to cost more than $5/hour to have your toilet cleaned.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Actually, what immigrants are needed for...

is to do the scientific research that our "dumb and proud of it" Americans aren't doing.

I just finished going through this month's issue of The Scientific American, and about half the researchers mentioned had East Asian, South Asian, or Middle Eastern names.

In an article about the Collegiate Inventors' Competition, I noticed that of the four prize winners, one was Chinese, one was Korean, one was Turkish, and only one was Anglo.

Of the undergraduate finalists, three of the six had Persian, Chinese, and Polish names. Of the graduate finalists, four of the nine had Thai, Chinese, Arab, and Korean names.

We can brag all we want about "American preeminence in science," but it's fueled by a supply of foreign students and researchers, who fill the positions that Americans, with their avoidance of "hard" subjects, are not filling.

[serryjw]

40. Sorry, I can't support an immigration policy

when someone is manipulated into being my (legalize) slave. There is a sub-culture in this country that no one wants these people to break out of.I can't support a concept that they are making more money than they did at 'home' and condone discrimination. Living with a dozen people in a 2 bedroom is nothing more than that.Being an American come with responsibility including what this country should stand for. By 2050 hispanics will be the majority in this country and most will not speak english, will not be educated and all we are doing is reducing the standard of living for all americans.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. The policy that is failing is a "supply-side" policy

The INS guards the borders and rounds up illegal immigrants periodically. Their employers get a slap on the wrist, and there are always plenty more people sneaking into the country to take those jobs.

If the INS instituted a "demand-side" policy of punishing employers severely, the jobs would dry up. For example, if a business or rancher hires illegals, shutter it and put the owner on trial. If the owner is convicted, confiscate the company's or ranch's assets and sell them to someone who has enough savvy to make a go of it with legal workers.

If a homeowner hires an illegal servant, fine them the full equivalent of minimum wage +FICA for the entire period that they hired that servant.

That sounds harsh, and it is, and it would probably never pass, because many of the business owners and agribusiness types who get all huffy about paying taxes to support illegal immigrants would hate to have to pay enough to hire legal residents.

But if you really want to end illegal immigration, don't concentrate on the endless supply of desperate people but on the vultures who exploit them. Make it so expensive to hire illegal immigrants that no one with any sense would think of it.

[serryjw]

56. Agreed

No argument here....I agree not to mention we are giving corporate America a license to abuse
them and reduce the standard of living for all Americans. If they didn't
exist they would pay decent wages to Americans

[forgethell]

11. Which one of the

many native American languages should we speak. English is the glue that holds us together.

[murray hill farm]

15. just trying to make a point!

ha! Maybe..while english is the glue that holds us together, we could appreciate that there are other languages..not just english..and maybe we could even take it upon ourselves to learn another language or two...immigrants might help us learn.

[Maestro]

8. It's a tough call

You bring up some good points, except the one about English. Of course the vast majority coming here are not going to speak English. Many do not even have literacy in their first language and one reason they are coming here is to provide a better future through education for their children.

Anyhow, there are many factors affecting immigration. One is the fact that small business owners, the vast majority rethuglicans and those who ironically voice their opinions strongest against immigration, continue to hire them for dirt wages. Secondly, many immigrants take jobs that many Americans do not want. They come and are hired to build roads, be janitors, clean sewers, wash dishes, etc...

I work with immigrants and their families on a daily basis. Very few want hand-outs and do not want to take advantage of anything that the US has to offer much to the chagrin of the many xenophobes here in the US. The draining of our resources to which you refer, I believe, just doesn't exist to an extent that would cause major upheval. More Americans are draining the welfare system than any immigrant. Many immigrants do not seek medical attention when things go wrong. The idea that they are clogging our hospitals is just not true. Besides, if they were they are going to the public hospitals which offer services to anyone; not just citizens. If you were sick in Mexico, would you want a hospital asking you for proof of Mexican citizenship?

The truth of the matter is, until we begin to offer genuine help to primarily Latin American countries and until big business stops outsourcing our work to them while paying practically nothing for wages, the masses will continue to come. Putting up walls will do nothing, they will dig under it or fly over it.

[katsy]

22. Taxpayers are paying a high price...

www.fairus.org



The costs of illegal immigration are a monumental burden to the American taxpayer. These costs include, but are not limited to, education, health care, SS, local government, Medicare and Medicade and incarceration (In the period from 1999 through 2002 alone, the number of incarcerated illegal aliens rose from 69K to over 102K).

The 1996 estimate by The Huddle Study (article at the website above) was stated as approximately $20 billion. The current estimate stands at $45 billion not including another $10 billion in indirect fiscal cost in periods of high unemployment. A CIS study estimates that supporting illegal aliens cost tacpayers $10 billion in 2002. However, it is estimated that 4 million more illegals crossed U.S. borders in 2004 alone. The INS puts the illegal alien population at 8,000,000 in the year 2003. By every measure, by every study, and no matter how wonderful these poor people are... the cost is an enormous burden on American families.

That's a $55 billion per year burden on taxpayers. Just to put this figure in perspective: John Kerry's healthcare proposal during his run for the presidency would have cost Americans approximately $65 billion per year. You could insure a third of America's uninsured, or all uninsured children. You could buy 1.5 million Hummer H2s.

My reply is not meant to cast dispersion upon illegal aliens. However, they are in America illegally. They should be deported. Our borders should be made more secure. If you've read the Federalist Papers, you know that one of the duties of our government is to secure our borders. Employers of illegal aliens should face stiff penalties.

If Mexico faces some degree of humanitarian crisis, the American people can choose to donate their time or money to ease the burdens of our southern neighbors just as we've pitched in to ease the suffering of tsunami victims. To impose this burden through taxation in one form or another (reduced safety nets, prisons, Madicare, Medicaid or burden on school districts) upon taxpayers is not acceptable.

While our educational system should encourage our children to be bilingual... Spanish isn't exactly the tech or international business language of the future. On a personal note... I'm encouraging my toddlers through language tapes to get comfortable with Mandarin and Japanese. In the long run, I feel that would benefit them more than Spanish. When schools can only afford to teach one or two languages, and Spanish is one of them just so they can communicate with illegal aliens in the U.S... that's a problem.

IMO... If the Democratic Party wants to win elections in the future, they need to take a firm stand against illegal immigration and for stronger enforcement of immigration laws.

[Maestro]

24. That place reads like a conservative terror alert

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=2549&c=17

Our elections are in trouble! :eyes:

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1272&c=17

Our schools are crumbling! :eyes:

Etc...
And any place that has comments from Georgie Ann Geyer just disgusts me. She is one of the biggest conservative xenophobes I know.

I hope you enjoy your stay.

[katsy]

35. somewhere between....

the people that want the borders open completely and the xenophobes, there's a reality.

Check the INS site or any other sites that suit you.

I always enjoy DU. Thank you.

[ThorsHammer]

36. That's where most of us are

I personally favor English as the official language, but also support the ESL and other programs to help people learn and adapt. From what I've read, most of them are willing to work hard to learn the language. They're usually willing to do most anything to improve their lives and the opportunities for their kids.

[XemaSab]

43. That's "cast aspersion"

not "cast dispersion."

"Let he who is without sin cast the first aspersion..."

[txaslftist]

52. Actually, it's "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I think aspersions had already been pretty much cast against the adultress. It was when we got to rocks that Jesus spoke up.

[Leilani]

10. The Dems have been hiding their heads in the sand on immigration

They seem to be allergic to the topic, but it's getting bigger & bigger.

Bush will be bringing his guest worker program to Congress, & the Repugs are split on this issue.

I hear nary a peep from Dems...are they going to join Bush, or are they going to fight Bush?

Do they have any ideas on this topic, or no, they'll just be reactive as usual?

The current system is in a shambles, & Americans are demanding change.
Will the Dem party be part of the discussion, or not?

[RafterMan]

16. Immigrants should learn English

If an American moved to a foreign country and didn't learn the local language, people would say "Ugly American". But the same people make up all kinds of excuses for people who come here and don't learn English.

As for immigration policy, it's tough. I chose to live in a city with a heavy immigrant population because I like the feel of it. But 300 million is a lot of people, and many of the economic arguments used to support immigration are not honest arguments. I tend to favor a replacement-only immigration policy, where immigrants could make up the difference between the birth and death rates for a given year.

BTW, I understand it's quite easy to migrate to Canada, or at least that the immigration rate is higher than it is here. I could be wrong, though.

[Maestro]

19. Immigrants do learn English

It is a fallacy and talking point of the right to say that they don't. Most immigrants acquire English in just one generation. Learning a langauge is not as easy as Berlitz would lead some to believe. Many academic studies have been done on this subject.

Immigrants prefer English

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Some of you are acting so damned high and mighty about this

How many of you who are ragging on immigrants have ever worked closely with immigrants or been part of an organization that sponsored refugees?

How many of you have tutored ESL?

When you hear those immigrants speaking Spanish or Vietnamese in the hospital emergency room, put yourself in their place. Even if they know some English, they may not know medical vocabulary, and they may even forget what they do know under severe stress.

How many of you have learned a foreign language well enough to conduct your daily life in it? (And no, it doesn't count to say, "Well, I would." How many have actually done it?)

Even more to the point, how many of you have gone to a foreign country as an adult and learned the local language (and I'm not counting pidgin forms of the language) well enough to function as an adult without any formal instruction?

First off, immigrants are eager to learn English, and their children almost all do. You take immigrant kids who have been here for a few years, and they sound just like native speakers of English.

However, it's a fact, and any foreign language teacher will confirm this, that it's harder for adults to learn a new language than it is for children, and that if they're going to get much beyond the grunt and point stage, they need some formal instruction. You all say, "Learn English," as if it can happen just by wishing.

In real life, this means taking classes. Assuming that the immigrant isn't working overtime to make ends meet and exhausted with household duties, the first step is to find classes.

I worked with a couple of different refugee families that my church sponsored, and I was appalled to discover that information about English classes offered by the local community college and other public agencies was available only in English. If you don't have someone who already speaks English fairly well and who can guide you through the procedure, you may not be able to figure out where and when the classes are, not to mention dealing with the registration procedures.

Assuming that you can find ESL classes for adults, the next problem is that there aren't enough of them.

So why don't we have enough of them? Guess what--money! Yup, if a state cuts back on higher education, as many states have, ESL classes get axed with the rest.

I would absolutely love to see a program for immigrants like the Israeli government program for teaching Hebrew to new arrivals. Before new immigrants are allowed to settle in Israel, they have to go through an intensive "language camp" called the Ulpan. I know people who have been through it, and they say it's excellent.

But that would cost money, wouldn't it?

I'm a former foreign language teacher, so all these rants about "immigrants not learning English" just fry me.

[Maestro]

21. Always can count on you

to support the immigrants and ELL's. Excellent.

[katsy]

23. easy....

If an American wants to get a job in China, he needs to learn Mandarin. It's his responsibility to learn it before applying for the job, not the Chinese government's responsibility to tutor him. Go to Monster.com and try for a job in China or France or Germany. Even some positions in Canada require French. They expect you to have some level of proficiency in the native language of their respective countries. What is wrong with that?

No need to fry. It's common sense. Why should taxpayers foot the bill for people who want to come to the U.S. to work without having at LEAST a basic level of proficiency in English? And yes, as an adult I did learn Japanese before I went off to live there for a few years. I'm also bilingual English and another Mediterranean language. My parents immigrated here and did teach themselves English. None of us had the benefit of ESL at that time. The immigrants that worked along side my parents in factories did have to teach themselves English just like my parents had to. None of us had the benefit of being tutored English so thoroughly as to understand medical vocabulary and to my dismay... I still don't understand half of what doctors say.

I do understand the need for ESL classes. And if the U.S. wasn't in such a bush-manufactured mess, there would be more money to spread around. But the U.S. is in an economic disaster. What do you do? Offer Spanish ESL classes, French ESL classes, Indian ESL classes, German ESL classes, Chinese ESL classes? How would you pay for this? At some point, reality MUST kick in here!

If money needs to be set aside for anything, it's for the opportunity to offer languages that best enable our children to compete in a global market in the future. That includes German, Mandarin, Japanese or French. That's where our money would benefit our children's futures.. With the scarcity of funds available for the education of our kids, the lack of ESL classes doesn't rate high on my list of priorities.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Reality MUST kick in, indeed

Obviously you don't know how ESL classes are actually conducted. Adult education classes in ESL (or even, say, the "Newcomers' Program" in the Portland, Oregon public schools) are taught by the direct method (the teacher uses English and a lot of gestures and pictures) with mixed nationalities in class.

There are cases in which the majority of immigrants in a given community are of one nationality, or a whole bunch of refugees from the same country come over at the same time, but in most large cities, the multinational ESL class is the norm.

As what happens at the Ulpan in Israel or in language schools for foreign students in Japan, this actually forces the students to speak the target language, because they have no other way to communicate with one another.

Now as far as financing is concerned, the "scarcity of funds" that you refer to is an artificially created lack.

Somehow, when domestic needs are mentioned, the conservative idiots plead poverty. "Oh, don't you know? These days, there's no money." That's a total crock.

Somehow there's always money for military purposes or for the more repressive aspects of domestic governance, such as drug laws and building prisons.

If the U.S. government weren't spending billions upon billions per year trying to conquer the world for Big Oil and more billions to hunt down marijuana growers, we could have both ESL classes for everyone who needed them and foreign language instruction for all American students. (My grandfather taught ESL classes in Minneapolis in the 1930s, during the height of the Depression. Somehow there was money for that then.)

However, the problem with foreign language instruction in American schools is that schools are locally controlled, and if your school board is populated by conservative idiots, they're going to fire the foreign language, music, and art teachers in order to save the job of the football coach. Don't laugh. I know of towns where precisely that has happened.

I'm glad that you had a chance to study Japanese before going there. It's funny that you don't know that Japan doesn't require people to learn Japanese before coming here, not on the JET Program nor for a Monbusho fellowship nor to work for Nova and their ilk. In fact, students who are brought over on the Monbusho fellowships are given six month s of intensive language instruction as well as two years on campus to study for their graduate school or professional school entrance exams.

Oh, by the way, if you look at actual websites offering jobs in China or other Asian countries, you'll find plenty that don't require knowledge of the local language before arrival. Americans are notorious for living in Japan or China for decades and not learning the local language, so the finger-pointing against immigrants seems arrogant.

Not all immigrants are as "superior" as your family obviously was. That attitude of "My family did it. Why can't everyone else?" sounds so Republican. It's like that nouveau riche attitude of "I became a millionaire. Why can't everybody else?"

[katsy]

37. some points well taken...

I agree with you about the republicans and their despicable policies across the board. That is not an issue here. Their game is greed and as a result the U.S. ranks 14th out of 15 of industrialized nations in the quality of education. That is an abomination. It is a deliberate action on their part to "dumb down" average Americans. You know that. I know that. The whole damned world knows it. Their scheme is obviously successful as this last election revealed.

My parents were factory workers who just managed to scrape by and send me to school. The point I was making ISN'T "well I did it why can't you". My point is that under duress... meaning this lousy criminal administration, people have to do what they MUST to get by. That means they get motivated quick and speak the hell english every chance they get at home with their families. Maybe you read this as a "superiority" complex, but you are dead wrong. There's millions of Americans all with their own concerns right now. Be it health care, education, mortgages, Iraq or whatever weighs heavy on their minds. ESL just doesn't rank on top of my priority list. If all Americans rose up and made it their top priority, fine then I concede in all my ignorance. Until then, I'd like to work on my family's survival.

I do believe that even legal immigration quotas must be reduced during times of high unemployment or "fuzzy" economy. And I do not support the proposed amnesty program. I support helping legal immigrants in their transition into this country. I was one of those immigrants once. I support all language training in schools for all children and adults. Does that extend to illegal immigrants? No. And no, I don't want to have to speak spanish to get by in the U.S. For this, I offer no excuses, no apologies.

As for jobs being available in China and elsewhere that require no proficiency in their native language... yes, I'm sure the exceptions can be found... possibly at very high level positions and low-level (maybe, I am not aware of any). The majority of them require some level of proficiency in the native language. That is a fact. If you are telling me that the help wanted ads in Chinese papers don't state you need a proficiency in Mandarin or other Chinese dialect... why would that surprise you?

My 1st husband was Japanese and I remember a little bit about Japan's policies. The Americans I knew in Japan spoke Japanese fairly well. We lived in a small town outside of Kyoto (Hikone) and learning the language at that time really helped as few of the residents spoke english. I don't remember an uprising over the fact that some foreigners didn't know english, nor do I remember anyone pitching in to fund the education of the foreigners. Instruction was always available and it was student funded. I also know the Japanese, for the most part, pay for their language training when they come here. I've worked with Japanese consulting firms and some of them didn't even learn english to consult for their U.S. clients (in the '90s anyway). They weren't given intensive language instruction. They were accompanied by translators. None of this expense was paid for by taxpayers, but I'm sure the shareholders of the hiring corporation took notice.

Monshubo offers scholarships that's sponsored and funded by the Japanese Ministry of Education and are geared toward Japanese studies. I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here and how it relates to ESL training in America. If you mean that our government is somewhere on the scale of maggots on the evolutionary chart... you're right. We didn't get to be 14th of 15 by accident,

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Monbusho fellowships for Westerners are geared to Jpn Studies, but

Monbusho fellowships for Third World students are geared to science and technology and other practical skills.

Most of the foreign students at my university were from other Asian countries and were studying things like nutrition, pharmacy, and early childhood education. None of them spoke any Japanese when they came, and they all started out by spending 6 months at a school in Osaka at government expense. I was at a public university, and most of my friends were taking their two years to study for the grad school entrance exams, again at Mombusho expense.

When I went to China in 1990 as part of an educational exchange program, I kept running into Chinese people who had studied agriculture or engineering in Japan, and when I lived in Oregon, I met a Salvadoran who had studied fisheries there.

As for the jobs available to foreigners in China, foreigners wouldn't want the low-level (i.e. sweatshop) jobs, and the high-level jobs are mostly with foreign companies, so that the employees live in the foreigners' ghettos of Shanghai or Beijing. Most of the other jobs are for ESL teachers, and applicants are not required to learn Chinese ahead of time, although obviously, that would be a good idea.

Note that the Japanese whom you worked with in the U.S. were high-level executives, not rice farmers.

[katsy]

39. Monbusho

How would you describe your experience in Japan and what's your opinion of their educational system as compared to ours?

[Kellanved]

18. Dou you believe that?

The USA are actually pretty hard to get into today.

As to difficulty of immigrating to Europe, that's partly a product of the traditional mindset of not being an immigration country. Also the social network have to be adapted.

But well, work's in progress.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Blaming the victims.

We rip off their countries of natural resources, use their labor to produce what we consume, abandon them when we've drained all they have, then blame them when they come to this country in desperation.

It's kinda like blaming the farmers in Peru for growing coca or Afghanistan for growing opium to satisfy the addictions of the "developed" world.

They come here and do the work that we "good" Americans won't do for wages that we won't accept. They pay taxes, live in poverty, are damned lucky if they can get health services or education for their kids. All while the fatcat capitalists that run this country use their labor and decry the expense of giving them minimal living standards. And, the politicians use them as a threat.

Oh, yeah..these people, who work harder than anyone on this board has probably ever done, don't take the time out to learn English.

[Maestro]

33. Exactly!

Those rethuglicans and their compassionate conservatism sure help out immigrants. They have no clue! Thanks for the post!

[GRLMGC]

41. My family came here to flee a civil war and to find work

I come from a family of hardworkers but I guess the original poster would rather not have us here.

[Bridget Burke]

49. First-generation immigrants OFTEN don't speak much English....

Check out the historic neighborhoods in the great Eastern cities--signs & shops in other languages are part of the heritage. And down here in Houston, Texas, we've got quite a mix.

The next generation will learn English if the schools are decent. Of course, education is pathetically underfunded nowadays. Forget adult education--the public schools must fight to exist.

Because of history & geography, Spanish will not just go away. They've been speaking it here for centuries & see no reason to stop now.

Edited to add: Most of my ancestors spoke English when they arrived because of 800 years of exposure to English culture. You've heard of the Luck of the Irish!

[txaslftist]

53. Thanks, Tierra.

I agree with you. I'm in a border state and work with immigrants regularly as clients. Mexican Americans and illegal Mexican immigrants are, in my experience, much harder working and more morally upright than most US citizens.

They are here to work because they have families that need to eat and have a chance at a better life. An immigration policy that calls for tougher enforcement is just silly. A first time illegal immigrant can get six months in jail. He comes back after deportation and he can get two years in prison. He comes back after that he can get 10 years.

It's hardly a lax policy.

[KJMagic]

42. We could, but...

it would entail overhauling the imergration beurocracy.

[robbedvoter]

48. It made this country great. Now, people like you took over and the

country will go down the drains. Hatred as a policy always does this.
The future of America reminds me of a joke in the old country: what's small, black and knocks on the door?
Don't worry, people will NOT want to come here anymore. Pretty soon. you won!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Very few Western Europeans come here anymore

unless it's to take a specific job or to follow a spouse. You don't find a lot of Western Europeans coming here for political freedom or for a vaguely defined "better life."

If Europeans emigrate these days, they're more likely to go to Canada or Australia.

[txaslftist]

54. "Follow a spouse" no longer US law.

The fact that you are married to a US citizen or have children who are US citizens is no longer a ticket to citizenship. The laws that permitted marriage and/or citizenship of children to confer citizen ship were up for renewal in 2001. They were not renewed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. I wasn't referring to citizenship, but to people's reasons for moving here

:-)

[txaslftist]

51. Your basic premise is flawed...

We aren't so "different" from countries that practice selective immigration, in fact we are MORE selective than many. I can go to Mexico and get a job and buy a home and live there without going through ANY immigration crap. A Mexican who comes to this country without going through all of the immigration hoops appropriately gets six months in jail.

If I "immigrate" to Canada without going through all the correct channels, I get kicked back to the USA. If a Mexican immigrates to the USA under the same circumstances, he sits in jail first, then gets kicked back.

Essentially the statue of liberty inscription is an "ideal" with no reflection in the actual practices of the United States. Over 40% of federal prison space is used to house people whose only crime is illegal immigration. No other country uses its prisons in this manner, or even close to it.

If you are posting in favor of selective immigration, don't worry. We've already got it...in spades.