for those who fret about Dems being taken to task on DU,

[ulysses]

thinking that people only want an opportunity to bash Dems, check out the love being given Barbara Boxer and others right now.

THIS is what's wanted. THIS is spine.

[Downtown Hound]

1. Love given where?

On DU or elsewhere?

[ulysses]

2. erm...

this forum.

[Lorien]

3. Amen!

being critical of what hasn't worked for the party isn't "bashing"; it's simply asking to see more of the kind of strength and spine demonstrated by Senator Boxer!

[ClassWarrior]

5. Agreed! Criticism is productive.

Calling our own people third grade names and pronouncing the party dead - like so many do here - isn't.

NGU.

[Rowdyboy]

4. And people will turn on her just as quickly should she ever dare

vote incorrectly, even once. I just much prefer seeing Republicans trashed than Democrats.

[ulysses]

7. I suppose that's possible

but I think it's more likely that the next DLC editorial will be about what a dangerous radical Boxer is.

[Guaranteed]

8. Well, yes. When they're bad, they must be punished.

They know what appropriate behavior is, and it isn't voting with the fascists. It's up to them to do the right thing, and we have every right to bitch when they don't.

Similarly, when they're good, we'll reinforce that behavior with positive feedback, like you see on DU today.

[sandnsea]

10. Objective reasoning isn't an option

Like maybe considering the reasons for a particular vote, whether you agree or not. Biden just said he was going to vote for Rice. I think it's horrific, but I'm not going to dismiss everything Biden ever says or does because of it. I'm sure not going to hang him with "he voted for Rice" every time he comes out and criticizes foreign policy for the next four years.

[Guaranteed]

12. I didn't say we should dismiss everything he's ever done.

I said he needs to be punished.

It's just like when a child misbehaves. You don't give them up for adoption. You just take away their allowance. :)

Further, we've already considered the reasons for voting certain ways. That's how we come to our opinions. When our representatives don't "come to the same conclusion" (or, when they just decide to act like cowards, some would say), then they need to be punished.

[sandnsea]

14. Wow, no wonder they don't listen

Just like kids who "get punished" when they make a decision their parents don't like. They stop listening.

"When our representatives don't "come to the same conclusion" (or, when they just decide to act like cowards, some would say), then they need to be punished."

Must be great to be right all the time.

[Guaranteed]

16. You don't believe in punishing your children?

What, you just let them run free, do whatever they want?

That's not good parenting.

And, similarly, I'd only be doing myself a disservice if I didn't expect my representatives to actually represent me.

Or do you believe in what you believe?

[sandnsea]

17. Not for having an opinion of their own

Having a different opinion than mine is not a punishable offense. Hope you don't have kids.

I don't expect my representatives to respond to every temper tantrum I might throw. Just like I don't respond to every temper tantrum my kids throw. I expect my representatives to have more information than I do and do what's right for the country. Even if I disagree. I can either learn more and understand what they've done or work to throw them out. That's MY part of the process.

[Guaranteed]

19. When they don't do what you want them to DO- i.e. VOTING-

you punish them.

When you tell them, no, you're not taking the car out tonight, and they do anyway, you punish them.

These are actions, my friend. Not just opinions. In every action, in every vote, they are representing you. When they don't follow through on that promise, they need to be punished.

I find it hard to believe that you don't even care when your opinion isn't being represented by those who are supposed to be representing it.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

22. Old enough to vote, and expect

my representatives to do what they KNOW to the be the right thing.

I think they call that democracy.

[sandnsea]

25. rotflmao

Democracy is someone voting the way you want or else? Only YOU know what the right thing is?

[Guaranteed]

30. That's a kinda harsh way of referring to my exercising my

democratic rights- you know, questioning leadership (if it can be called that), voting, choosing to support a campaign financially- or not.

You let it slide when our candidates act like cowards. I don't.

When I disagree with my party's leadership, I'm going to let them know.

Who are you to tell me I shouldn't do that? I'm engaging in democracy to its fullest, and I couldn't respect myself if I didn't.

[sandnsea]

33. Punishing leaders

who don't do what you say. That's what you said. Now you change your tune. I'm not surprised. Been dealing with that from a certain group of people for quite some time.

[Guaranteed]

34. I didn't change at all.

I'll say it again- punish them. I just didn't say it how you said it.

But, ultimately, yeah, what you said, too.

OR ELSE!!! I won't vote for you, or...OR ELSE!! I'll tell people I disapprove of your policies, and that I don't think you're holding up true Democratic principles. OR ELSE!!! I won't give you campaign money.

I gotta say, it's kind of anti-climactic the way you're putting it, though.

[sandnsea]

36. Now you're back to punishing

Do it my way OR ELSE. Back to the beginning. Must be nice to be right all the time. Enjoy your righteous indignation and infantile temper tantrums. They'll work as well on adult politicians as they do on your parents.

[Guaranteed]

35. LOL you really should listen to yourself.

You're advocating voting for people that don't protect your interests.

That's just ridiculous. Totally ridiculous.

[RapidCreek]

26. Why?

Why won't you hang him because he voted for Rice?

In voting for Rice he's affirmed the very criticism the Republicans implemented so very effectively in bringing down the Democratic Party. Namely that Democrats have no moral foundation, that they are wafflers and hypocrites. In suggesting you won't hold a Democrat responsible for a vote which will put a person who is arrogant, abrasive, demonstrably stupid, a known lier, a cheat, rationalizer of torture, and an utter failure in her last job at the Helm of our nations state department, you have as well. Congratulations!

It is this very sort of spinelessness which has brought us where we are today.

RC

[Guaranteed]

32. .....

:thumbsup:

[FubarFly]

9. Actually, most people will weigh her positives against her

negatives and come out with a more balanced picture of her. As long as the positives outweighs the negatives, they'll continue to support her. I have yet to see one person on this board, or anywhere else for that matter, who actually demands or expects perfection.

To me being a "good" Dem and excusing bad behavior by being silent is an unconscionable action to take in a democracy. With that said, I agree with you, I would much rather see Republicans trashed also. I just wish Democrats didn't keep doing things that deserve trashing.

[AgadorSparticus]

42. if next week, she decides that the patriot act is a godsend, then yes,

she needs to defend her decision.

just because she took on condi a week prior does not give her a blank check on support. i am a believer that anyone in power needs to be held accountable at all times. power is like fire. it can easily consume you if you are not careful. so no blank checks. that is a dangerous springboard to abuse of power.

i know that the favorite pasttime in washington is the make-a-deal game. but these elected officials are making deals at my expense and i, and every american, have every responsibility to keep them in check.

to add: especially since the media isn't doing their job, it is more imperative that we, the people, take up the slack.

[orpupilofnature57]

6. I wish we had DU when SAM nunn,was helping ray-guns and this ..

Good ole boy, get along little dogie mentality, which has brought us to the shrub at hand and under foot.Thats why i hate that word(progressive) not only ambiguous, also it means do business,its PAID democrats business to be LIBERAL.

[AP]

11. Boxer can do this because she got so many votes and isn't running again

for 5 years.

I hope people understand that.

A senator from a state like, oh, say, South Dakota, which is dominated by Republicans, who has to run for reelection, and who is tight in the polls cannot do stuff like this.

But we still need Democratic Senators from SD.

[FubarFly]

13. I disagree.

Most people don't even pay attention to process. The people who do will either support us, or are already getting their opinions filtered through right wing sources. (Not voting for us anyway.) Even our red state Senators can get away with becoming far less timid than they've been. As long as they have a consistent record which they are prepared to defend, they can pretty much speak any truth they desire. By and large, actual Independents respect decency and integrity. They'll actually improve their lot. Of course if they don't have unconditional Party backing...all bets are off. The fear of angering the power brokers is the real reason for Democratic timidity; it really has little to do with the constituency.

[sandnsea]

15. Not according to them

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBYVPCL44E.html

[Guaranteed]

18. If they're paying attention, we'd better make

our case, and make it a good one.

[FubarFly]

23. Those governors are saying that

their values reflect the values of the majority of their states voters.
Which in the case of many "red" states, tend to be more conservative. If they speak out, and honestly represent their positions, they'll convince the voters of this and improve their chances of getting elected. If they pander and say that they have these values, when in reality they don't, they'll more than likely come across as phoney and not get elected.

I'm not talking about adopting liberal idealogy here; I recognize the need for moderate and conservative Democrats. However, I'm also saying that if by speaking out, they stand to lose a major source of their funding, they'll more than likely get timid. I believe this hurts their reelection chances. This is true regardless of left/right idealogy. This could be avoided if the primary source of our politicians funding was their constituents.

[RapidCreek]

27. From a South Dakotan.....Bull Shit

Tom Daschle was a mealy mouthed little dork. The second to last commercial he made went something like this. "Some people say I'm partison....well I wan't those people to know I've supported President Bush more often than not".

Well hot damn! In that weasely little proclamation he let every South Dakotan know that he is more Republican than Democrat AND that that quality makes him a desirable candidate. Now if he himself believes that emulating Republicans is the road to success...then why the hell would any halfway intellegent constituant not vote for a candidate that has already arrived? Well...guess what....they didn't.

RC

[AP]

28. He wasn't blown out. He was close.

He got all the votes of Democrats who wanted someone partisan, and he just needed a few of the people in the middle.

[RapidCreek]

40. Needed some of the people in the middle?

Wanted someone PARTISON? He's about as far from partison as one can get and still be in a party. He got the votes of Democrats who had no other "Democrat" to vote for. Like me for instance.

You say he needed people in the middle? What's the middle? Explain in detail.

RC

[robbedvoter]

29. No. Some of us still believe in integrity. Check the dictionary.

Not everything is strategery.

[AP]

37. I believe in integrity too. But I also like having 51 or more Democratic..

...Senators, and I believe people like John Thune shouldn't be in government making laws.

[cindyw]

20. You know what though, the point is that people are more obsessed with

trashing Kerry than with criticizing Republicans.

[Lorien]

24. Have you been to LBN lately?

stop by; plenty of "trashing" of BushCo is going on there (I prefer to call it "criticism" because it has a basis in actual-not imagined-outrages).

Some of us are highly critical of Kerry because he IS one of ours; one expects more from one's own family than one does of strangers (or enemies).

[Guaranteed]

31. In other words, they get upset when Kerry DOESN'T, apparently,

feel the same way about Republicans as they do.

How can someone blame them for that?

[Jackie97]

38. I agree.

Dissent is good.

[KittyWampus]

39. Democrats Aren't Being "Taken To Task". They Are Relentlessly

trashed and maligned.

Boxer can do what she's doing because she's 'safe'.

Just because a few immature DU'ers want Kamikaze Democrats to go down in a blaze of glory doesn't mean the Democrats are spineless for not doing so.

The inability of some DU'er to see the Big Picture and to constantly need to bash their allies leads me to wonder if there's some underlying psychological problems.

It's one thing to critique and opine, it's another to demand that sitting Democrats perform on demand despite any and all counter arguments.

[AgadorSparticus]

41. big picture = no dissent and moving further to the right.

[scarletwoman]

43. Beware, it is well known in psychology that when a person makes

assertions that someone *else* has psychological problems; it is often the case that the first person is projecting and actually has his *own* psychological problems that need attending to. It is a message from one's subconscious that our conscious mind/ego wishes to deny, and therefore resorts to projection.

I see the big picture very well. A large number of our national Dems have a greater loyalty to their class than they do to we proles and peons on the ground. They are tied and indebted to many masters, and are participating in the breathlessly exciting Beltway games for status, power and privilege. Money, too, of course.

I myself refuse to give fealty to the Ruling Class. When I see an elected Dem going along to get along, it makes his or her loyalty very clear - it does not lay with *us*.

sw

[CWebster]

44. I'll tell you what I thought was sort of sad.

Here was brave Barbara Boxer, not once, but twice, stepping up to the plate as everything we have been desperately waiting for, almost alone, but oh, heaven and earth, thank you---except there was John Kerry finally reaching for the moment we all knew he was capable of---and what do we see? Post after post excusing and dismissing the other Democrat's cowardice.