Biden on Iraq: I'll vote for $100 billion ... I'll vote for $200 billion .

[welshTerrier2]

During the Rice hearings while Biden was questioning her, he said that we have to be honest and recognize that it could take another $100 billion to finish the job in Iraq ... and then probably another $100 billion to really finish it ... and then he added "and I'll vote for that" ...

what troubles me is not just the money but the amount of time with continued U.S. occupation that his statement implies ...

Biden himself stated that we went into Iraq under false pretenses ... he said the only justification provided was WMD ... some believe that now that we're there, we have to stay ... but "continued occupation" was never authorized after the alleged WMD was "taken out" ... who the hell ever authorized the occupation of Iraq ??? the mission was WMD PERIOD !!! that's it ... it wasn't WMD and then because the country is unstable and there might be a civil war or terrorist training camps that we would remain in a Vietnam-like quagmire !!!! who the hell authorized this occupation ??? why are the Democrats going along with this madness ???

do Democrats believe progress is being made ??? do Democrats think that children throwing rocks at U.S. tanks isn't indicative of how the U.S. military is perceived by the Iraqi people ??? do they not see the violence growing greater and greater everyday ???

you want Democrat bashing ??? i am sickened by Biden, Hillary Clinton and now even Kerry too ... i had hoped Kerry would return from Iraq to lead us out of this darkness ... yeah, i know, how naive was that ... how dare they continue to support this hegemony ... they whine and whine like weasels about having been lied to and yet they just keep signing the checks for more of the same while bush builds military bases in Iraq and rattles his war drums towards Iran ...

added on edit:

for weeks now, i've been arguing that the "jury is still out" on Kerry ... as i said above, i held out hope that he would return from Iraq and "set a new course" ... i thought he would make it clear that our military involvement in Iraq cannot ever succeed ... my criticism above was predicated on the fact that it seems unlikely he will do so ... HOWEVER, after hearing his speech on WHY he voted not to confirm Rice, I'm returning to my "jury is still out" position ... Kerry gave strong indications that he voted against her because she was endorsing "more of the same" ... he clearly called the policies of the bush administration wrong ... perhaps we saw a spark there of Kerry being willing to lead an opposition Party ... so, the jury is still out NOT because he voted against Rice but because of his strong criticism of the policies she pushed through and continues to support ...

[wtmusic]

1. does anyone remember the word 'disarm'?

That was the whole purpose advanced for this war. Disarming Saddam. "Saddam is not disarming". How many times did we hear that? "Saddam has WMDs, up in the area around Tikrit."

:grr:

[Al-CIAda]

4. We attacked an UNARMED nation over a LIE sold to us by PNAC operatives

[Al-CIAda]

2. He seems to be all about hot air with no guts.

Yeah, we went in under a lie that was sold to us, but hey, how much you need for that? 100, 200, 400 Bil? Sure!

What a dope.

[Ninga]

3. What I have read into your post is that all you are asking

is that our elected officials "do the right thing"....


If doing the right thing were easy, then everybody would do it.


Since I believe our legacy depends on doing the right thing, and since I believe we will all end up in the earth or scattered to the wind.....it should be simple......do the right thing!

Our deficit is not in dollars.....it is in people not willing to take a strong stand, back their words with a vote, and simply do the right thing.

Listen to Biden raging and raging and raging right now!!!!

But he will vote "yes".................

[Benhurst]

7. Let's see, should a war criminal be confirmed as Secretary of

State or not? Dear me, what a moral dilemma for our Democratic senators.

[coffeenap]

5. Biden just said Rumsfeld doesn't know what he's talking about!

Wow, something real???

[Ninga]

6. "Real" is doing the right thing and voting NO.

That is the only "real" out there.

All this f++king posturing by these blow hard Dems means NOTHING in the scope of it all.

Condi Rice is the most amazing debater I have ever seen, she is able to twist, turn and wiggle her way out of an answer.

[trezic]

8. Bug out?

It's called credibility. We cut and run, the 1970s starts up all over again. No thanks.

There's a difference between ratifying a decision and acknowledging that someone else's mistakes have obligated you to fix the problem. By this logic, Clinton was equally responsible for Reagan's deficit, and pledging to fix it, as Reagan was for running it up.

[welshTerrier2]

10. obligated to fix the problem ??? credibility ???

are you seeing something in the actions most Democrats are still supporting that appears to be "fixing the problem" in Iraq ???????????

because I don't ...

the discussion is NOT about our "obligation" to help Iraq ... on that, we apparently agree ... but the military option has clearly failed ... we should be fulfilling our obligation in non-military ways ...

and credibility??? that's what you're worried about??? one of the Democrats referred to the Charles de Gaulle remark about President Kennedy ... the crux of the remark was that de Gaulle didn't even need to see evidence Kennedy had because he trusted Kennedy ... the point was that no one in their right mind trusts bush about anything ... bush has no credibility ...

now perhaps you mean "macho credentials" when you use the term "credibility" ... perhaps you mean that we have to show the world that when we send our military to war we're going to stay for however long it takes regardless of whether our policies are making things better or worse ... well, let me ask you this? what does it do to America's "macho credentials" when we cannot defeat the "insurgents"? what does it do to America's credibility when anyone winning an election in Iraq is seen as a U.S. puppet? what does it do to America's credibility when we invade for one reason and move through a laundry list of reasons to try to justify our assault on Iraq? what does it do to our credibility when we claim to be helping the Iraqi people but fail to rebuild the infrastructure there? what does it do to American credibility when we cut down their date trees, destroy their farms, pollute their water, poison the countryside with depleted uranium and fail to produce as much electricity as they had before we invaded? and what does it do to American credibility when we say we're there until the Iraqis can protect themselves but we're building permanent military installations all over the country?

you're worried about U.S. credibility? so am I !!

[trezic]

12. Response

When I say credibility, I mean American credibility.

There many methods of measuring the credibility of a country. One of the most important is whether, when it commits forces to war, it has the endurance to complete its stated task. This is the kind of credibility that both allies and enemies use to measure the reliability of a country. Nations are measured first by capability, then by intent. It is clear that America has the capability to defeat this insurgency. The question is whether we have the intent.

Intent divides into two categories. The first is an understanding of the correct methods. The second is dedication.

The military option has not clearly failed. Hasn't there been a steady decrease in attacks since Fallujah? Iraq bears at least one striking resemblance to Vietnam: the insurgents are trying to exercise the tyranny of the minority with guns. The majority of the country is NOT violently opposed to American occupation. Their goal is to live their lives as best they can.

When it comes to the international arena, the reasons for fighting a war are usually less important than methods and success. Other governments are less interested in the variety of rationales for the war than in whether American influence will expand in the region.

Counter-insurgency operations have been and will continue to be the dominant type of warfare that America faces. If we fail in Iraq, which bugging out would be, we confirm that the lessons of Vietnam were never learned. The most important of which is that pacification doesn't necessarily take a horde of soldiers, but personal contact with the natives. This is an area at which the Marines traditionally excel.

In closing, I see a lot of people on DU who want an immediate pullout. That would be disastrous. Iraq would immediately plunge into a civil war that would almost certainly pull in the rest of the region. This war is no longer, if it ever was, about some idealized conception of right and wrong. It's now about making the best of a bad situation. If we bug out, the result will be like Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Abandoning millions to the tender mercies of the jihadists just to protect some idea of 'moral courage' is moral cowardice.

[welshTerrier2]

14. "pacification" and "personal contact"

here's what you wrote:

The most important of which is that pacification doesn't necessarily take a horde of soldiers, but personal contact with the natives. This is an area at which the Marines traditionally excel.

one could perhaps extend this observation to suggest that "pacification" is best achieved by methods other than an invasion by military personnel ... but absent even that argument, let's take a look at the actions of the Marines you referred to:

source: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/01/308127.shtml
also, here's a link to the author's website: http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/

Mohammed, a 15 year-old secondary school student stands near his home explaining what he saw. "There is a grave of an old woman they bulldozed," and then he points to the nearby road, "They destroyed our fences, and now there are wolves attacking our animals, they destroyed much of our farming equipment, and the worst is they cut our electricity."

"They come by here every night and fire their weapons to frighten us," he explains while pointing out an MRE on the ground, left from some soldiers who used the bulldozers.

<skip>

Standing in a field full of unexploded mortar rounds a farmer explained, "We don't know why they bomb our house and our fields. We have never resisted the Americans. There are foreign fighters who have passed through here, and I think this is who they want. But why are they bombing us?"

<skip>

"If there are bombs why do they attack our homes," she pleads, "Why don't they follow the people who attack them? Why do they come to our family? All we need now is electricity so we can run our water pumps. I don't need my house, but we need water. This is our planting season."

Ihsan, a 17 year-old student, joins the conversation near the bulldozed orchard. "I was beaten by the Americans," he explains, "They asked me who attacked them and I do not know. My home was raided, our furniture destroyed, and one of my uncles was arrested." Um Raed is asking him to talk about the electricity some more, but then adds, "Yesterday at 5:30pm they came here and fired their weapons for 15 minutes randomly before they left." I glance at the ground and see the casing of a 50 caliber bullet while she is speaking, "Nobody attacked them. Why are they doing this? We told them to come and search but they didn't. They just shot their guns and left." She holds her arms in the air and pleads, "Please, please, we must have electricity. They destroyed two of our pumps and threw them in the river!"

lots more ... i hope everyone reading this thread reads the entire article ... then you'll understand how the battle for the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi people is really being waged ...

[GOPBasher]

9. Ask Biden who he thinks should pay for it?

If he says, "increase taxes on the rich," I'll let him go. If he says anything else, it would basically mean taxing the middle class or -- and this is more likely -- taxing unborn babies because of the massive increases to the debt. That's all we've been doing for the last four years, increasing the national debt at an exponential rate.

[welshTerrier2]

15. class warfare

while i agree class warfare is a critically important issue for Democrats to address, I think the use and abuse of the U.S. military as a component of our foreign policy is equally as important ...

regardless of who's paying for this "war", the "war" is still wrong ...

[realFedUp]

11. 32 years is too long for this Senator

I suggest they start looking for someone
to run against him. He's a little comfy
in that chair.

[sarcasmo]

13. Biden 200 million I don't agree with but I will vote for it.

What I have learned from these hearings is that Biden had the wrong letter next to his name it should be an R instead of a D.