question: those angry at dem senators that voted yea

[seabeyond]

do you also feel that kerry ran a lousy campaign and felt the democrats should have gotten as low as the repugs and duke it out in the campaign the same as republicans, you know lying and fear and fear and lying

during the campaign there was a group of people that would get on and say kerry's debates, oh what a loser no wonder the democrats always lose. we have to get as bad as the republicans

so i am wondering is there always a group of democrats that are not satisfied with the political system and want it more draw the sword and blood type attitude

the people that arent satified now, were you not satisfied before

just curious

[Ian David]

1. What I'm hoping is the dems are using Condi as Bush's rope to hang himself

[trezic]

2. They're called bomb throwers

More interested in 'awareness' and ranting than learning about the hard issues. Their goal isn't to win anything, it's to deny their opponents.

[CWebster]

8. From the one who hates Kennedy and the UN

Yeah, right.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

3. take one good long look at the direction the country is going

does that give you a clue?

[seabeyond]

10. does it give me a clue on what is going on in the world?

or a clue to the question i posed? cause i can look at the direction of this country, lol lol but i still hold to this question. see, i have walked life battling a diffferent way. though i think as effective or not more, because i am into inclusive, not exclusive. i dont feel i have to win hannity's or limbaugh's way. or bush's for that matter. further, i know i couldnt win their way, i am just not corrupt or a liar. so i have to find other ways of being successful

[el_gato]

21. I'm not suggesting anybody stoop to the level of corruption

but sheesh couldn't they (our democratic "leaders") at least vote against shit like the patriot act, ashcroft's confirmation, condi, etc. etc. etc.

what is so hard about that?

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. I think finding out that 99.5% of the "mistakes" found in Ohio

went for Bush, vindicates Kerry of running a bad election. When the proof is staring you in the face that fraud was most likely committed in this presidential election and that the overwhelming majority of it benefited Bush, well, it makes no sense to blame Kerry for what appears to be another stolen election.

[seabeyond]

12. this is how i see it and this is with

lodry the audacity in lie of swift boats, churches saying kerry non christian and murderer, media that if they said kerry's name was in a neg adn didnt show many of bush failure, but if they did show a failure they always followed up with the nation wants to have a beer with him

ah and the terrorist alerts
president running in time of war

i felt the groundswell movement to kerry. kerry wasnt perfect, but i did like kerry and he did work his ass off and in moments of inegrity, he stood up in my view. he was pretty close to being perfect. for a mere man. a mere rich isolated man

and worked his ass off, i would get so tired just watching all the hours all over country. and if he took a day or two off, people would get so mad at him

[truebrit71]

5. For my part, the answer is yes.

Kerry's campaign was absolutely useless in it's (non) response to the Swiftboat Liars. They continually allowed Chimp's camp to frame the debate, and in an unbelievable twist actually managed to portray the coward deserter-in-chief as stronger on defense then the decorated war veteran.

Good guys finish last.

The Dems absolutely should have gotten into the mud and brawled. Taking the high road has cost us the White House, and Congress and until such time as we snack them in the mouth harder than they smack us we will continue to lose.

[seabeyond]

13. allowed Chimp's camp to frame the debate

did kerry do this, or did the media do this. i dont think kerry did. i think this was exclusively the work of media

but i respect your position, and i thank you for chatting with me

[Jon8503]

19. You are Absolutely Correct

Giving the Swiftboat Veterans a free reign was plain stupid. It should have been attacked immediately as many called out for. It needed a swift response. This could have nailed them from the beginning.

Being nice is as we now know being a loser. For the second presidential election this DNC has let the Republicans define the campaign.

For Gore, you have to divorce yourself from Clinton. That was a big dumbass mistake. The two of them had great success those 8 years and we could'nt win on that.

For Kerry, the democractic convention has to be careful not to look bad by bashing the president. You need to respect the president. Be nice.

Does anyone remember the niceties of the republican convention?

They cheated the first time around in Florida.

What did we expect them to do in Ohio?

Basically we let them do as they wanted again.

[CWebster]

6. I am pleased that Kerry stood on principle

Though my arguments against Rice would probably be closer to Boxer's. Still, Kerry made a clear stand and that is what he should've done in the campaign. It demonstrates a willingness to fight. It isn't possible to play nice with these thugs.

[seabeyond]

14. you never saw him take a stand in his campaigning?

can you clarify. i am curious. thanks

[noamnety]

7. I don't understand the connection

I would have preferred the senators voted no on her confirmation, because she hasn't been truthful, is unwilling to come out against torture, and (imo) is incompetent.

I don't view that as "getting low" or relying on fear and lying, or resorting to republican tactics. I'm really confused on how voting against confirming someone who refuses to condemn torture is related to the Kerry campaign at all.

I just want the senators to do what's right. Not because it's tactical, not because I want to see a bloody fight, not to send a "hell no we won't cooperate" message to BushCo, but because voting to confirm someone who clearly supports torture is not an ethical thing to do.

[seabeyond]

16. i dont know that there is a connections

that is why ia m asking to see if possibly there is. whenever i question something i like to listen to see if i can better understand. helps me to be more respectful to the other. in that, i can then work with, and instead of battle working together, just makes us more powerful

sounds to me like there isnt a connection for you. two seperate events. thanks you

[paineinthearse]

9. Look into PDA

http://www.pdamerica.org/



In fact, there is a summit this weekend in DC:

January 21-23, 2005
Only 2 more days before we converge in Washington, D.C.
Three days of inspiration, planning and problem-solving.
Helping to shape the future of the Democratic Party,
and the direction of our country, with progressive
speakers, discussions and workshops. Together
we can take back our Democracy!

- go to http://www.pdamerica.org/summitDC2005/index.php

Please post this in your states' forum.

[seabeyond]

17. thank you i will. i am looking to go to local area democrats n/t

[MoonRiver]

11. I want Democrats to start winning.

The present strategy of kissing Repuke arse doesn't seem to be doing the job. But I don't think Dems need to become vicious, they just have to call the criminals on their outrages. Is that too hard to accomplish? If so, we are always going to remain losers. The Repukes have no scruples and will simply continue walking all over us if we don't stand up to them and revolt. No more DLC Mr. and Mrs. Nice Guy Tea and Truffles for All b.s. We gotta be strong, honest, and precisely focused on presenting the truth about Repuke chicanery to our country's citizenry and the world.

[seabeyond]

20. hey pet, i have never had a tough time nicely saying truth, lol lol

doesnt have to get ugly for me. didnt you hear a lot of people say that yesterday and today. i think that is what i liked the most, since dean, and then kerry campaign when he said biggest group of crooks and liars..........and then stood on it, ......

i haev heard kerry able to go further in speaking truth than a lot of politicians, but boxer she took them to a whole new playing level on truth. and what i saw the other go a little further also. i feel this is just the start.

now if we could get the media to share a tad with the public. boxer is right on with story telling to the people. but then she has just recently started listening to the people and look how far she has come

our voice

[poe]

33. thank you

but let's also be brutally frank about the dems record of mass murder. let's all stop living the lie that is america. where was kerry when clinton kept the illegal and murderous sanctions rolling right along in Iraq. thirteen years. 1.5 million dead at least. bombing every single day. over half a million children dead. depleted uranium all over the river valleys. that's not just a republican mandate, they just happen to be grotesque beyond comprehension. who has the courage to stand up to the US MILITARY CORPORATE JUGGERNAUT THAT IS DESTROYING PLANET EARTH?

[seabeyond]

34. this is true

now i feel a bit hopeless, wink

you are right

[MoonRiver]

47. Yes, I agree. We have a pretty sorry record too.

(Maybe we see so much smoozing between the aisles because our congress is primarily an alliance of the likeminded). But regardless, we need to start electing progressives who won't condone such horrors for the almighty dollar.

[Vinnie From Indy]

15. Without the Radical Left, Where is the Center?

It is a great deal closer to fascism!

do you also feel that kerry ran a lousy campaign and felt the democrats should have gotten as low as the repugs and duke it out in the campaign the same as republicans, you know lying and fear and fear and lying

Why lie? I would have been satisfied with a more forceful message of the truth. Equating the massive lies, distortions and deceptions of the Rethugs and their media bitches with aggressively presenting the truth by the Democrats is just silly.

The Democrats SHOULD use fear as a primary motivator in their message. There is much to be fearful of in regard to ShrubCo. Enterprises if you love freedom.

[seabeyond]

23. i think we could have had a more forceful message too

I would have been satisfied with a more forceful message of the truth. Equating the massive lies, distortions and deceptions of the Rethugs and their media bitches with aggressively presenting the truth by the Democrats

good stuff thanks

many said we needed to run a campaign like repugs. and for me that is lying, conning, cheating and stealing. so i may have a confusion in what they were saying there exactly

[sampsonblk]

18. as low as the repugs?

I didn't hear anyone saying we should get "as low as the repugs." I heard a lot of people - myself included - saying that Kerry should stand up for something, and not keep giving in on points where Bush was either completely wrong or lying through his teeth. As far as I am concerned, voting YES on IWR is a huge betrayal, as is supporting Condi Rice, agreeing that the Iraq war was the result of an "intelligence failure," or conceding that Abu Ghraib was "just a few bad apples." Instead of letting Bush have a pass, our party leaders should be all about taking a stand. Nothing dirty about that. Its called having guts.

It has nothing to do with getting "as low as the repugs" as you call it. No one said "we have to get as bad as the republicans." I am asking for courage and truth. Not dirt.

[seabeyond]

24. "we have to get as bad as the republicans."

i heard it a lot and often. nad often had discussions with people on it

"I am asking for courage and truth"

me too thank you.

[seabeyond]

26. the up side cause i can find it in all things

had one more senator stand up in 2004 than we did in 2000. had one more senator stand up in condi debate, than we did electoral of 2004

maybe they will feed each others courage, understanding it is what we the people and aching, yearning for, as boxer learned just prior to jan 6th

[bullimiami]

22. no i dont think kerry ran a lousy campaign

but when he needed to fight for justice and against fraud he failed. utterly.

the democrats, as a party have failed to fight, they just lay down and let criminals, liars and fools commit crime after crime, injustice after injustice and do NOTHING. Then they enable it by voting :: for Rice to be SOS and probably for Gonzales to be AG. Rice who is a liar and by her lies a criminal and Gonzales who came up with justification to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. This is a criminal administration and the "supposed" opposition party does not oppose.

all i ask is that they fight with everything they have, vote against everything that is wrong and stand on principal. they do not. fuck them all to hell.

[seabeyond]

29. i think most who know me would say i am as principled as it gets

in a hypothetical, i could see me easily be the biden or the feingold or the dobbs. i dont see the crime or injury the way others. but then i dont think i am a less moral person either. nor do i have a lower standard of principle.

rowdydog? started a thread with htis, i am stealing for example, understanding, clarity

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/cabinetta...

Dan Glickman 94-0
William Daley 95-2
Bill Perry 97-0
Janet Reno 98-0
Andrew Cuomo 99-0
Madeline Albright 95-0
Bill Cohen 99-0
Alexis Herman 85-13
Federico Pena 99-1
Mike Espy Unanimous Consent
Ron Brown " "
Robert Reich " "
Bruce Babbitt " "
Henry Cisneros " "
Dick Riley " "
Hazel O'Leary " "
Donna Shalala " "
Jesse Brown " "
Carol Browner " "
Bill Richardson Voice Vote (unanimous)
Les Aspin " "
Warren Christopher " "
Togo West " "

Like it or not, presidents usually get the cabinets they want and, with Republicans controlling the senate, this time isn't going to be any different.

And if every Democrat opposed her and convinced 6 renegade Republicans to join them (yeah, like thats gonna happen ), Bush would just appoint some other neo-con and we wouldn't be a damn bit better off.

[bullimiami]

31. why would you vote for someone who is unqualified and dishonest?

im sorry. a vote FOR rice is approval of rice, bush and their behavior.

i dont care if they have the votes, its about principals and I dont see that the democratic party (as an entity) has any better principals than the bfee at this point. i am done with them.

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. In the words of Metallica...

FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE :grr:

[tjdee]

27. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and also, yes.

I don't want our country's politics to devolve into Knuckledragger Central, but HELL YES Dems need to get throw some punches.

Negativity works. Just ask the swiftboat veterans.

We have the benefit of truth--would it be so "low" to start talking about what a cokehead Georgie Bush was? Would it have been bad for our side to have "former drug addicts who snorted with George" commercials where the former drug addicts wondered aloud whether George had gone back to the powder with all the stress of presidentin'?

I don't know. I do think that would be dirty--but I do think that would work.

Kerry's campaign was kind of lackluster, IMO. I'm unconvinced he broadcast some of the more egregious Bush actions.

[seabeyond]

30. head bent down, straw in hand, a snort along the line

hearing snort sound

bush head lefts up, snow on the nose

is this the man you want to have the finger on the button

would have been dramatic huh

[sunnystarr]

40. You're right --- that's my main criticism in Kerry's campaign ...

All the missed opportunities to call Bushco out on their lies and distortions. I kept waiting for the truth to be brought out but it didn't happen. At the time of the debates we were all waiting with anxious breath for Kerry to really just bring out the truth about Bush. It didn't happen. Now maybe he didn't want to be viewed as bashing Bush and facing criticism. Bushco however trashed Kerry over and over again with lies. Although the media could carry the blame for not broadcasting something we may not be aware of, the debates had the eyes and ears of America. Kerry didn't seize the opportunity.

That being said, I'm not bashing Kerry for it. My main criticism is that Kerry let himself be led around by the nose by the consultants who were way off the mark. I think he learned from his experience and would make different choices in the future. I'd still support him for President unless Gore ran. We all need to stand fiercely behind all Dem candidates for any office.

[seabeyond]

42. i can go with you on all this

i think this is where i put "he wasnt a perfect candidate" but then there are no perfect candidates.

then if we did have a dean that did go into all that, we would be happy, and wow, who knows, torn up and spit out by media, not just slapped around

oh ya kinda like the dean scream, that is just what they did

ya, thanks

[LTRS]

28. You have to go as low as repugs to run a decent campaign?

Since when? Bugs that hell out of me when people take 2+2 and act like the result is 5.

We lost because our messaging sucks, and our political leaders (yeah, Kerry is one of them) vote not on principle but on what they think will get them the most votes. Problem is public opinion changes like the wind, so that is a losing strategy.

The minute we choose a candidate based on his war record instead of his voting record we lost! Period. Kerry voted for most of Bush's controversial programs, and wussed out on speaking against the ones he didn't vote for, long before he became a candidate.

Kind of hard to explain to voters why Bush was wrong on tax cuts, NCLB, the patriot act, the Iraq war, ad nausuem, when you voted FOR all that stuff as a senator (probably because you thought if you didn't you couldn't run for office and capture the middle). Except surprise, there is NO MIDDLE anymore, and your base thinks you're just a con job like Bush, because you caved and didn't stand up for your principles when it counted.

Kerry lost because they tagged him as an unprincipled flip flopper, and in the year previous to the election when he was calculating, but not yet running for president, he was one. Simple as that.

[sampsonblk]

36. Amen-nt

[poe]

32. Kerry was for the war-Kerry voted for the war

The soul and the spirit each have their own limits. John Kerry and most Dems supported this criminal invasion and all knew better. Where was Kerry for the thirteen years of sanctions? 1.5 million dead, mostly children. Screw all the political machinations tell the dirty truths.

[kslib]

35. Mixed

I wish that they would have voted no. I hate the lies and the lying liars who tell them (if I may quote!), but I also get that to be a politician, sometimes you need to pick your battles so that you aren't seen as only voting party lines, or as an "obstructionist", or as unwilling to compromise. I keep thinking that maybe these senators are "saving up" their battle for the judicial nominees, since they may have a better chance of getting mod. repubs to vote with them. Then sometimes I get irritated with all the politics, and want to just say "fuck 'em" let's vote down everything, then I remember that any "moderate" bills that might be good for seniors or kids or the poor, might get obstructed as retaliation.

So, I guess my heart says stick it to 'em ya pansies!, but my brain says save it for the big battles ya' numbskulls!

Or, maybe I'm just naive, believing in my own rainbow-y world that they have a plan for the higher good....
:shrug:

[seabeyond]

38. you are cute

lol lol lol, see i do this too, why i wanted to hear from people. what my heart says, may not match the brain, i go my heart most all instances,........why i so embrace what boxer does, cause i know that is a better "right". but in the brain i can understand why biden did what he did, and if he is using brain not heart, ergo.....his position, just not as "right" as from the heart, but understand

[poe]

41. we need obstructionists when it comes....

to red stamping mass murder which is what most dems, including kerry did. there is no getting around that fact. there are politicians that do stand up like mckinney, waters, hinchey, kucinich et al and that's good politics. filthy politics is playing political games to get some little giveaway for your constituents and the dems do this also. i held my nose and voted for kerry knowing we must do better. we decent folks better wake our asses up and take matters into our own hands. the earth is being creamed and no party politics can stop it, certainly not the in the abyss of DC. but you can.

[no name no slogan]

37. Big difference between presidential election and Senate confirmation vote

MUCH more is at stake in a presidential election. A Senate confirmation vote is typically a foregone conclusion, when one party controls both houses of congress and the presidency.

I would have liked to see more of the Kerry that was grilling Condi and less of the "reporting for duty" last fall. Had Kerry been as good as he was in committee, he may have actually won the vote with a theft-proof margin.

[seabeyond]

39. won the vote with a theft-proof margin.

isnt that sad. in fall before election and watching repugs doing tons to supress vote, early election too, that is what i would say to self, have to get enough votes to cover the theft

i think we could have. should have seen way more if the media gave kerry just a mere half, quarter of a chance

[no name no slogan]

50. Maybe he would have, if he had campaigned in more than 18 states

The party leadership decided to focus on 18 key states, leaving the rest to fend for themselves. This is also part of the reason why we lost congressional seats, as well as local races as well.

The Democrats are a national party. Therefore, we should campaign like one.

[Zhade]

43. What does anger at voting for a liar and criminal...

...have to do with the issue of some feeling Kerry's campaign was weaker than possible, or the strawman-from-left-field of "getting as bad as the Repubs"? After all, voting NO on Rice does not equate to getting down and dirty like them.

I just don't see them as connected. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

44. i dont know that there is a connection

that is what i was curious about. during campaign there was always a group, regardless of what kerry did, it wasnt forceful enough or loud enough or strong enough, confrontational enough. i was wondering if there is a particular crowd that sees politics a bit different than me. and if there was a correlation.

if it was the more cutthroat kinda crowd wanting all senate nay, or if this is just in general, a lot of people thinks it is lacking in integrity to vote for rice

i dont see it lacking in integrity personally. regardless of biden vote, what i heard him say, leads me to feel he will continue to stand up and speak out against this administration adn the war and their handling of it

[Zhade]

45. Yeah, Biden's a hero for voting FOR the lying criminal.

Come on, where is the line? If Biden were to "speak out against" liberals being herded into camps he voted to authorize, would he still get a pass?

[seabeyond]

48. if he voted for the patriot act

and then the administration used that patriot act in an abusive and wrong manner, and the right wing court ok'ed the administrations abuse of the patriot act, and people were herded into concentration camps and biden yelled out against it

yes, i would give him a pass and put the responsibility on bush abusing patriot act and right wing court abusing their position to reinforce the abuse of the patriot act by the administration......wink

[cestpaspossible]

49. I don't really understand your post.

Biden, Dodd, Feingold, Nelson, Obama and Sarbanes made the wrong choice. C'est tout.

[seabeyond]

51. gracias n/t