The Rice vote is explained as "The president has privelege in his cabinet"

[ProfessorPlum]

In other words, this is business as usual, this is what we've always done.

Which is precisely, 100%, the problem.

They are so hung up on traditions and formalities that they can't see what is going on around them. Democrats can't see (or refuse to see) what is happening, and that it might be important to be registered as someone who opposes creeping fascism.

There is NO excuse for voting for Condi - ESPECIALLY if their "No" vote wouldn't have changed the final outcome. What is the possible harm? They might anger GOP voters? Who the hell cares?

[nickinSTL]

1. I hate this argument

The Secretary of State represents the United States and the American people in foreign relations. To vote to accept an incompetent liar for such an important position is simply unacceptable, IMO.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. I thought the big thing about the Secretary of State was that they're

also under the jurisdiction of the Congress?

[Wisc Badger]

6. Office of Secretary of State is in

the Executive branch as is all Cabinet level members. The president has juridiciton over the executive branch.

The senate advises or consents to appointments to cabinet level posts.

[eallen]

4. No, she represents the United States GOVERNMENT. Which is headed by Bush.

While our ideal is a government of, by, and for the people, the people clearly are divided. Rice no more represents the people than does Bush. But she might be quite appropriate as a representative of the US government, which now, unfortunately, to our dismay and shame and lasting harm, is headed by Bush.

[Benhurst]

3. Since we've given up all but the pretense of free elections, it's

about time for such anachronisms associated with the late republic to be discarded as well. The people haven't spoken, and Bush no more deserves his cabinet than he deserves his lodgings at 16000 Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Wisc Badger]

7. The elections were free

please I don't like the outcome either but the elections were free.

[Benhurst]

8. Yeah. Just like the 2000 election. Sure. NT

[KansDem]

10. Prove it...

...and don't use any statements or quotes from the Whoreth Estate, Republican SOSs who are also Bush/Cheney state campaign chairmans, or representives of the GOP-run, super-secret vote counting machines...

[Sparkly]

32. "Free?"

They were called "free" when voters were pulled out and "challenged," or asked to make guesses about what was inside a box as an "intelligence test;" and now they're called "free" when people are dared to figure out where to vote, dared to stand in line for six hours, and expected to trust their votes were counted behind locked doors...

This sham isn't what a "free" process looks like. I'll call that "free" when an equal number of whites in rich, predominantly Republican districts go through the same ordeals to cast THEIR votes.

[Wisc Badger]

5. Do you know what fascism relay is???

"creeping fascism." Throwing terms like Nazi, Reich or fascism may make one feel good but you might want to actually realize/know what the terms actually mean. Intellectual honesty demands it.

I don't like Bush any more than you, but this nation is not fascist nor is it in danger of going that way. The rhetoric is getting way to over the top, calm down and argue rationally.

[Benhurst]

9. From one who should have known:

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

I can't possibly imagine anyone's thinking there's been such a merger here.

[KansDem]

12. You mean like this...?

Businesses pick up tab for Bush bash
Inaugural costs expected to top $40 million

By Corbett B. Daly, CBS MarketWatch
Last Update: 10:17 AM ET Jan. 18, 2005

Nearly 200 companies, trade associations, and private individuals have already donated close to $25 million to finance the presidential fete, according the figures released Jan. 14 by the inaugural committee.

Some of the big donor companies include ExxonMobil (XOM: news, chart, profile), ChevronTexaco (CVX: news, chart, profile), Cinergy Corp (CIN: news, chart, profile), Ford Motor (F: news, chart, profile), Occidental Petroleum (OXY: news, chart, profile), Pfizer (PFE: news, chart, profile), TimeWarner (TWX: news, chart, profile), UPS (UPS: news, chart, profile) and Wachovia (WB: news, chart, profile).

In addition, more than 60 wealthy individuals have donated at least $25,000 of their personal money to the inauguration committee. And more ten of these rich contributors have given the $250,000 limit.

And each has reason to give. The federal government makes key decisions that affect their businesses, which range from oil and gas interests to financial services companies to hoteliers.

(more)
If the $40-million cost estimate, which does not include the cost of security, proves accurate, Bush second inauguration will be the most expensive in history.

That's $7 million more expensive than in 1993, when President Bill Clinton's inaugural committee spent $33 million, raised mostly from souvenir and ticket sales, and more than $10 million over his $29-million inaugural in 1997. For his second inauguration, which took place as the White House was under fire for dodgy fundraising, Clinton limited individual donations to $100.

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/archivedStory.asp?archive=true&dist=ArchiveSplash&siteid=google&guid=%7B2A7EA68A%2D0361%2D4533%2DBC34%2DEA1BEBDCA8EB%7D&returnURL=%2Fnews%2Fstory%2Easp%3Fguid%3D%7B2A7EA68A%2D0361%2D4533%2DBC34%2DEA1BEBDCA8EB%7D%26siteid%3Dgoogle%26dist%3D%26archive%3Dtrue%26param%3Darchive%26garden%3D%26minisite%3D

Naaaah...I don't see how ANYONE could possibly think this administration embraces fascism...

[AG78]

11. Nazi doesn't equal fascist

Same way capitalism doesn't equal democracy.

The Nazis were a political party. Fascism is the merging of corporate and state power. The Nazi party used fascism to gain power. What one does after taking power through fascism is a different story. It's a means to an end.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm

____

"The really dangerous American fascists," Wallace wrote, "are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power."

In this, Wallace was using the classic definition of the word "fascist" - the definition Mussolini had in mind when he claimed to have invented the word. (It was actually Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile who wrote the entry in the Encyclopedia Italiana that said: "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini, however, affixed his name to the entry, and claimed credit for it.)

___

[ProfessorPlum]

14. It sounds like a race I'd rather not have our country run

Who hands the baton off to whom?

Let's see, the media is off, and hands the baton over to Bush, who hands it to Gonzales, to Rumsfeld . . . heading down the stretch . . . Yes! Team America wins!!!

[ProfessorPlum]

15. But please, enlighten us on what you think

"fascism relay" is. I'm intrigued.

Before you do, Google "fourteen points" and "fascism", read them, and then be ready to discuss them, Oh 200-post master.

[proudbluestater]

31. Here you go, Badger. Now YOU know what fascism is.

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to (sic) media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Free Inquiry, the magazine that celebrates reason and humanity, is published quarterly by the Council for Secular Humanism. Edited by philosopher Paul Kurtz <http://www.secularhumanism.org/home/kurtz/index.htm> , Free Inquiry presents scholarly and popular articles relating to secular humanism, atheism, church-state separation, and issues affecting the rights of religious minorities. For more information, contact us at [e-mail].

[ProfessorPlum]

36. Thanks for the post for me.

Key-rist, can it get any lamer in here? (On edit: not you)

[robbedvoter]

13. Clinton didn't. IOKIYAR

[kerrygoddess]

16. Democrats Could Delay Rice Confirmation in Full Floor Debate

It appears that Kerry and Boxer are working their magic with Senate leaders on the confirmation of Condoleezza Rice. NBC News via MSNBC is reporting that “Democrats planned to delay her widely expected confirmation by the full Senate.”

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=250

[Padraig18]

17. Be careful how you play this game, because it may come back to bite you.

I'm wondering how you will feel about this argument, when we have a Democrat in the White House. It could come back to bite us in the ass, you know?

:eyes:

[Generator]

19. What with all due respect

that's just assine. IF and when we ever get a Democrat back in the Whtie House-if that Democrat appoints someone as worthless for the post-no strike that-outright dangerous to this country-then I would hope and expect the Republicans and the Democrats to oppose such person. The Democrats are not opposing Rice just to be "mean" or whatever to Bush. It's because she is the worst person for the job!!
She deserves to be fired not promoted or kept in government.

Lord, I hate politics. Politics over common sense are ruining this country. We need a lottery. Most of us could do better than these bozos have done.

[Padraig18]

21. With all due respect, it's NOT assinine!

What's assinine is the knee-jerk wasting of energy here in pointless attempts to deny Bush what we are clearly powerless TO deny him.

:wtf:

[Clarkie1]

23. Actually, it is assinine. You are arguing two wrongs make a right.

Dems giving Republicans a free pass on an incompetent nominee is just as bad as the reverse. Two wrongs do NOT make a right.


And we CAN deny Bush a politcal free pass on this.

[Padraig18]

25. Sorry, but we can't.

When I went to grade school, they taught us to count, and the last time I checked, 55 votes beats 45 every freakin' time. I'm tired of this symbolic masturbation that people keep urging us to engage in.

[Clarkie1]

28. Yes we can

It's not about stopping the nomination, it's about standing up against the lies that Rice was instrumental in using to decieve the American people.

Politics isn't always about getting the most votes. Making your voice and discontent heard as loudly as possible makes a difference. Everything makes a difference.

[Padraig18]

29. No.

Again, the precedent that would be set would bite us so firmly in the ass you'd wail and gnash your teeth so loudly you couldn't even hear me say "I told you so". This is a BAD tactic. Save it for something we have a remote chance of prevailing on.

[ProfessorPlum]

34. We are totally in a situation here where "precedent" doesn't matter

We also had a "precedent" not to be an aggressor nation before Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rumsfeld. We also had a "precedent" to read and TAKE SERIOUSLY the PDBs before this crowd came in. We had a lot of precedents that are not, at the moment, doing us any good.

Complaining about this fool being made the Secretary of State is a rather good precedent to set.

[Padraig18]

35. Don't say no one told you differently, when the tables get turned.

:eyes:

[ProfessorPlum]

37. OK, you can come tell me "I told you so" when the GOP starts

foiling Democratic nominees.

Oh wait, they've already been doing that since 1993 . . . you were right!

[Padraig18]

39. Who did they foil?

Names?

[ProfessorPlum]

40. Lani Guineer

off the top of my head.

There were dozens of federal judges who were obstructed and never even got to the hearing stage - they were just stalled and their seats went empty for years.

[Padraig18]

41. How did they 'foil her?

IIRC, she had some major problems that even had Democrats leaning against confirming her.

[ProfessorPlum]

43. You don't RC

She was scuttled by Gingrich in a smear campaign. The Democrats that had major problems with her only knew her through the campaign of character assassination, not through her own, in context, writings.

[Padraig18]

44. More platitudes.

An interesting debate style: revert to platitudes when asked for specifics.

[ProfessorPlum]

45. Here is a quote from that radical publication, "The Nation"

"Lani Guinier was dumped as too radical after the Wall Street Journal published a maliciously erroneous polemic."

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20000214&c=3&s=greider

[ProfessorPlum]

46. Also Kimba Wood and Zoe Baird

Both cabinet-level appointees.

Kind of spoils your thesis, doesn't it?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

27. 'clearly incompetent'????

I'd like to hear your argument on that.

[ProfessorPlum]

30. I'm sorry, maybe we are talking about two different people

I'm talking about Condi Rice, who was National SECURITY Advisor during 9/11. Who didn't bother to read the National Intelligence Estimate before the run up to and invasion of Iraq. Who is in charge post war Iraq. Any of this ringing any bells?

Who are you talking about?

[Padraig18]

38. Nice side-step.

Please, either answer the question, or don't bother replying. What proof do you have that she is incompetent to be Secretary of State? BUSH blew the intel briefing off, not Rice.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clarkie1]

22. If democrats nominate a liar in the future, then Republicans should say no

[ProfessorPlum]

26. Again, if Dems ever nominated someone as crappy for the job

as Rice, I would HOPE - I would DEMAND - that our Senators vote against them, just as I demand that they vote against Rice. The point is not that we CAN stop her, but that we WOULD stop her if we could, and the world needs to know that.

[Generator]

18. Thank you

I said the same exact thing earlier. If you can actually see someone as a DANGER to the country as a THREAT with her incompetence and blind fog of alligence and ideology-then if you vote for her-you really do share in the blame.

[Clarkie1]

20. NO MORE BUSINESS AS USUAL - TELL YOUR SENATORS! N/T

[Vinnie From Indy]

33. Media MISSED The 2nd Part of the Quote, It Was "And My Balls In A Jar"

The correct quote should have been, "The president has privelege in his cabinet AND my balls in a jar!"