wake the fuck up, Democrats !!!

[welshTerrier2]

Leadership: it has something to do with fighting for an idea before everyone else already knows it's the right thing to do ... Following: it is kind of like jumping off the dock after the boat has already sailed ...

Show some damned LEADERSHIP on Iraq ... Howard Dean, that means you !!! John Kerry, that means you !!! and it means anyone else who aspires to LEAD the way ... get your fucking acts together already ... you supposedly are our heroes and our leaders ... well LEAD, dammit !! stop calling for a military solution in Iraq ... it will never happen ... start paving a real path to peace with negotiations and international humanitarian aid ... the U.S. military is doing nothing but fomenting violence, anti-Americanism and instability ...

Enough is enough ... the elections in Iraq are a total sham ... they will make the situation much worse ... they have no credibility with the Sunnis and will lead to civil war ... it's time for a new direction ... it's time for withdrawal ... our battle cry is: NO MORE MONEY FOR WAR !!

please read this article: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/thenation/20050120/cm_thenation/20050207editors_1

<snip>

As long as the occupation continues, any Iraqi government or constitution will be tainted and incapable of producing the compromises necessary for a stable and unified Iraq.Therefore, for the sake of Iraq's future and the safety of our young men and women, the United States must begin an orderly withdrawal, coordinated with stepped-up US and international economic assistance. We recognize that further violence and internal fighting among Iraqis may follow, but to believe that a continuing US military presence can prevent this is naïve or disingenuous; it will, rather, contribute to the instability. The best long-term outcome is for Iraqis to regain control of their own country and sort out their own future.

An increasing number of Americans recognize the worsening situation. In a recent Gallup poll, nearly half of those responding called for either US troop reductions or complete withdrawal. The politicians are beginning to hear them. Sixteen House Democrats recently signed a letter urging a total pullout. "This is the only way to truly support our troops," the group said. Senator Edward Kennedy reportedly will soon call for withdrawal by the end of the year. Former National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft warned that the election has "great potential for deepening the conflict" and said it was time to ask "whether we get out now." Conservatives from the Cato Institute to Pat Buchanan's American Conservative have called for withdrawal. The antiwar movement is regrouping.

<snip>

[Tony_Illinois]

1. Amen, brother!

[Jo March]

2. wt2, I agree that they need to wake up

We have to wake them up, unfortunately.

We have to call and fax and write and email. Then we have to do it again and again and again.

We can NEVER let up pressure on these guys. We have to give them a spine. It's sad to say but true.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. The war in Iraq is my litmus test for politicians

I refuse to support any one who supports Bush's fake war on terrorism and the occupation of Iraq.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. No more collaboration called "compromise".

Iraq is still the issue, and will be until we are either out voluntarily, kicked out, or until they involve us in another war to "protect our vital interests".

The Democratic "leadership" (for the most part), is collaborating with the colonialists in the name of political expediency with the usual promises of "we aren't as bad" and that they would run the illegal, immoral, and murderous war more "efficiently".

So far, the "leadership" has proven to be good at rolling over and whimpering about "reservations".

In the meantime people are dying while they play politics.

[housewolf]

5. Most of America still sleeps in a deep trance...

God, I wish I knew what would wake them up!!!!! So far the blood sacrifice of 1300+ American deaths, 10,000 American wounded, tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths and wounded, the shame of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, a bitter presidential election, election fraud and voter suppression, rumors of war plans for Iran and Syria, a huge tsunami in Asia, a manufactured crisis in Social Security in progress, and a shocking presidential inauguration speech have failed to rouse those Americans who remain slumbering. And let's not even mention the value of the dollar and Peak Oil!

Good article, WelshTerrier2. I see why you are a terrier! They never give up. Neither do we!

I watched a show on the History Channel last night - it was about the modern living presidents by Bob Woodward. He commented on and interviewed all the living presidents (except Cheney substituted for GWB). It was quite an interesting show - watch for it, I imagine they will broadcast it again.

The reason I bring this up is something from Bob Woodward's interview with Gerald Ford in which GF stated that the thing he felt the worst about during his presidency was the fall of Saigon and America leaving in defeat. GF talked about the shame of the airlifts off the embassy roof and the humiliation of that defeat. He said it was because Congress refused his request for more money.

I just bring that up today because GWB will be requesting money from Congress again soon for Iraq. The Repubs will use Saigon history as evidence of how we must "stay the course." We need to be prepared to rebut that argument.

[JoMama49]

6. You're right, Welshterrier! * will never end the War because

it would mean he'd have to admit mistakes. The only way to get out is for the DEM leadership to show some spine and demand it! One of them needs to get out on the floor of the Senate and use some of your words! That's the only thing that will wake everyone up!

[welshTerrier2]

8. well, it sounds like Kennedy's about to do it ...

ya gotta love the guy ...

unfortunately, it would be much more powerful coming from Kerry ... and it's about time Dean showed some leadership on the issue too ...

[housewolf]

9. Poor Ted...

Much as I respect him for the work he has done in the Senate, he's never been able to live down a caricature of himself. It saddens me that he's such an easy target for the right wing, they have so litle respect for the man.

Gerald Ford addressed that issue in the Woodward interview I mentioned - he talked about how he and Tip O'Neil and Mike Mansfield were actually FRIENDS and enjoyed each others' company in spite of the difference in parties and ideology.

That basic respect has gone AWOL in Washington, much to the country's detriment.

[welshTerrier2]

7. everything I really know ...

i learned from my sweet little terrier ...

i'll watch for that show on the History channel ... doesn't look like it's on tonight though ...

my response to the "we can't let our country be humiliated again" is as follows ... if this were really about avoiding humiliation, bush would be doubling the troop strength in Iraq ... it's not going to happen ... at current troops levels, we'll be far more humiliated if we remain than if we leave ... right now, the U.S. can get out and bush will point to "his successes" ... the PR is easy ... we drove a tyrant from power and created enough stability to allow elections to be held ... we did all we could to train the Iraqis but now they have to stand on their own ...

of course, more importantly, policy should not be set based on whether we will be humiliated or not ... i call that "macho rationale" ... people are dying ... avoiding humiliation is not a justification for war ... there was no legitimate basis for invading Iraq ... now that we're there, the only possible justification for remaining, and i don't agree with it, is that there is a reasonable basis to believe we are, or at least are likely to, make a positive difference. how, after seeing all the death and the incredible increase in instability, can anyone believe the U.S. will succeed militarily? we are clearly not the "liberators"; we're the "enemy" ... for that reason, i keep using the phrase: "we have met the enemy and they are us" ...

and even if you didn't agree with my assessment of events on the ground in Iraq, even if you believed the U.S. is making some kind of progress, the bottom line is that there is absolutely no basis for trusting bush and the neo-cons with anything ... they are not building a better society for the Iraqi people ... they are not there to build democracy ... how naive do people have to be to believe that anything good can come from bush's military efforts ... the goal is conquest ... the goal is occupation ... the goal is permanent military basis ... the goal is oil ... the goal is regional control ... these are greedy evil men who's ultimate goal is global, corporate governance ...

staying the course is no longer an option ... with the possibility of a Kerry presidency, it was at least valid to hope that continued military presence could somehow, with international cooperation, be shaped into something of value ... i thought Kerry was, and is, dead wrong on the war ... i am desperately hoping that he, and Howard Dean, will finally seize the mantle of leadership and show us the way out of the tragic darkness ... i'm so disappointed in both of them for not doing so but i remain hopeful nevertheless ...

and i struggle everyday what the hell i'm doing in a party that doesn't seem to have a clue ... but for now, i remain ...

[housewolf]

10. "Inside the Presidency" ... and Iraq humiliation

This is the show:
Historychannel.com
Inside the Presidency with Bob Woodward.
Looks like it's scheduled for Sunday am, check your local listings. The History Channel also did a multi-part series called "The Presidents" that covered a brief biography of all of our presidents and their terms. I enjoyed it and learned a few things.

-----

So what is it, do you think.... that they have been so stubbornly incompetent???

I think they will do as you suggest - keep dumbing down the bar of sucess so that they can say "hey, we gave them elections, that was our goal, if they f*** it up well it's up to them to fix it now" and then pulling out claiming victory

But then I swing to the other said and say but... that doesn't fit with them wanting permanent bases and a military presence in the area...

So I stay stuck in the mystery of what the heck are they/we doing???

To me, the real humiliation was going in there in the first place, only to be aggravated by allowing the place to fall apart.

[welshTerrier2]

11. "stuck in the mystery"

yup, me too ... any guess about what bush will do after the elections would just be a wild guess ...

i'm struggling with the obvious failure of current military strategy (withdrawal) versus permanent bases (stay the course) ... it seems like some of the big inside advisors are pushing to get out ... but it's hard to believe it will happen ... maybe we'll see something like this: half the troops get moved to the Iran border as a threat ... the other half is not sufficient to do the job Iraqis were trained to do, so they will be "pulled back" from direct engagement and kept in Iraq on U.S. bases to "be available" to the newly elected Iraqi government if they're needed ... I guess I can't see bush withdrawing and I can't see how anyone would want to defend the current policy any longer ... it's just going to get worse and worse and worse and bush would take a political bath with nothing to show for it ...

how's that sound ??