Am I alone?

[justy329]

I do not consider myself to be a centrist. I am a pretty liberal guy. But, here I feel as out of place as Rush Limbaugh.

A majority here do not like our last Democratic President. They say vicious stuff about our last nominee, Kerry. Nearly everyone doesn't like Joe Lieberman, 2000 winner of the popular vote for VP.

Many do not support the party and consider Democrats corrupt. They criticize our Democrats for every little vote especially the resolution to reject Ohio's electors. Even the head of the Congressional Black Caucus, Mel Watt, voted against rejecting Ohio's electors!

I am a proud democrat who admires Clinton and FDR and JFK. I support candidates who want to make the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes, ensure healthcare for all, make us respected abroad. But, what I see here a collection of the far, far, far left-wing fringe.

But, back to my point. Am I alone? Do other people who loyally support out Democratic Party and feel they are srong Democrats feel that this site is far, far, far too left-dominated who post nothing but vitriol against well... everything.

[GRLMGC]

1. I feel centrist sometimes here

even though I'm pretty liberal. Don't let it get to you. This website has many opinions and that's the way it should be. There are probably a lot of people who feel the way you do.

[eg101]

2. Now, dont worry--most Democratic activists are just like you...

unfortunately....

[sandnsea]

No, you're not alone

Leftists are great. I just wish they'd realize they're true leftists, further left than the Democratic wing. Then maybe they'd stop identifying themselves with the Democratic Party and find a party or activist group so they can build a stronger leftist voice. Be better for everybody.

[New Earth]

3. i have no problem with what goes on in here

except for the Kerry hatred, which is exactly what it is. it's pretty ridiculous and immature if you ask me, and it gets kind of old after a while :boring:

[ogradda]

4. it's always seemed to me there is a broad range of democrats here.

I guess if I thought about it I'd have to say I fit in pretty much in the middle here. Is it maybe the kinds of threads you are clicking on? from what you describe of your position it doesn't seem you are that far right of a lot of people here to me.:shrug:

[justy329]

11. You would think.

But, I see people hating Obama because he voted for Condi.
I see people saying they will leave the party is Dean is chair. (Which I think will be a disaster.)

But, the thing that makes me furious the most: this notion that Hillary is a DINO. That hurts because I have given hundreds of dollars to her, attended many fundraises for her, and greatly admire her. She cares about the Democratic values such as a higher minimum wage, protecting the right to choose, protecting the environment, and more. The RW hates her because they think she is a symbol of liberalism. But, here she is not liberal enough?

I have been lurking for a while. I wish I would have registered before the election. Before the election, I saw sensible threads and smart discussions that I would have loved to participate in. I guess that everyone was united against Bush. Now that Bush was re-elected, I suppose people are more inclined to speak out against our party. However, I don't find it particularly productive.

[stray cat]

15. I think Obama is great and Hilary is definitely not a DINO.

I think both are smart, dedicated individuals who also are capable politicians.

Just for the record...

I am also not leaving the democratic party but if everyone does leave who threatens to at DU we may be assured 4 years of Trent Lott or Bill Frist.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[toymachines]

5. i think that left domination is a large part of this site

because it is all relative. the democratic party in this country is, for the most part, a moderate party. so this leaves us with one other option, the right wing. since this is a two party system, the left is not adaquitly represented. so those who are leftist are (i think) often considered far far left. this site is a place for those who are truly in the left wing. democratic underground, the name even gives the idea that the site represents those whose ideas wouldn't necessarily gain credence on the outside. i am one who thinks that the democratic party is pussy (especially now) and rarely stands up against the repugs. those are my thoughts.

[wyldwolf]

80. interesting theory, but not how/why the site was established

It was established after Gore had election 2000 stolen from him. Gore was/is a moderate Democrat. The idea being the Democrats would be operating "Underground" while the GOP ruled.

The site is Demoratic Underground. Big "D," designating the Democratic party. The mission statement testifies to that:

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

The founder of DU is rumored to be a moderate and employee (or former employee) of either the DNC, DLC, or both - though I don't know that for a fact.

[toymachines]

82. i surely am not saying du is only for left leaning democrats

just that many of them flock here, and this seems a good place for them.

[stray cat]

6. You sound alot like me. DU has a wide range of progressives.

I'm a registered independent - a strong supporter of the democrats now that the republican party has been hijacked by radical Neocon, Corporate and Fundamentalist fringe groups.

Most of the time I am somewhat out of step here but there really is a range. Also people in general are pretty frustrated and angry - Bush definitely seems to bring that out in people. Sometimes people just are letting off steam.

[Dr Fate]

7. Are you an activist or regular party volunteer?

B/c a lot of the people who you are talking about are.

I think a lot of the criticism I've been seeing is natural & healthy at this point. We DO need to change our strategy, and there is nothing wrong with recognizing mistakes made by outr party leaders...

Dont be too discouraged- I think a lot of it is growing pains...

[flamin lib]

8. Here's the deal,

we ran to the center. Bill tried to be a centrist and while he made much progress compromising with the right he lost the both the House and Senate.

When Bush took office without the popular vote we treated him as a legitimate President. Dems confirmed more court appointees in the first six months than Repubs did in eight years, we rolled over on the rush to war, we voted for tax cuts and in short became Repub lite.

Because of that when it came time to reign in the war nobody could speak with authority, including our Presidential Candidate. When it came time to work on the deficit nobody could speak with authority because they voted for the tax cuts.

Not many Dems can speak with any authority on any topic because they all compromised to an illegitimate President. Now we're hearing maybe we should soften our stance on abortion and gun control.

Bull $#!t. We lost being Repub lite. Why should anyone vote for Repub lite when you can vote for a full bodied @$$ #0le?

The party out of power is the opposition party. Time we began to act like it and oppose this regime and everything they stand for.

[justy329]

14. I do not want to be a GOP lite

I want to oppose Condi, end the tax cuts of the wealthy, not invade countries needlessly, protect choice, have gun control, protect the environment, etc., etc.

THAT'S WHY I AM SO TROUBLED by the fact that I don't feel comfortable at this site.

[slay]

33. If you don't feel comfortable here...

...then move on to a site where you feel more comfortable. Or learn to accept this site for what it is. I'm not trying to be rude, but it's that simple.

[MontecitoDem]

49. It can be brutal here for dems who are more moderate

you'll be accused of not caring about democracy, being a troll, a republican, etc. It's still worth it to stick around because there's lots of good debate too, and great info. Even if you are a real liberal, as I consider myself, but one who sees winning as a key to changing our system, you may have all sorts of trash thrown at you. You'll also have some really interesting discussions with folks on all sides of an issue.

After awhile, you can choose to ignore certain threads or writers who are attack dog-ish, but stick with those with whom you disagree but can still have a civil and informed discussion.

I agree, this site can sometimes be a bummer. But don't listen to folks who say "then leave." The dem party must be bigger than any one group, because the truth is we share the same values.

[blm]

9. I'm a far lefty who believes in pragmatism and realistic actions.

I've been shoved at by some here, but, I feel that consistent logic is a strength and will be heard. Accusations of being a Democratic party apologist roll right off my back.

[Warpy]

10. A little thin skinned, are we?

Someone once referred to leading the Democratic Party as herding cats. We're independent, and we're not afraid to criticise our own when they're in the wrong. If you want lockstep idological rigidity and a cult of personality, I'd suggest you look to that other party to find them.

Clinton was not much of a friend to labor. Kerry made some colossal blunders in his campaign. The DLC are totally out of touch with the party base. And the party has already ignored the warnings about election fraud for far too long, with disastrous results.

You may gleefully support all of the above, that is your choice. However, don't complain when those of us who love our country and hope to make our party representive once again of rank and file working class interests criticize them all when they richly deserve it.

[tnlefty]

12. Welcome justy329.

What better place is there to vent frustration and/or disagreement with another Democrat than with another Democrat? For example, I am in a very red county in a very red state and I save my critism for "more private" conversations.

I don't agree with every policy that Bill Clinton put forward, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect him. My mother who is a whacked out Bush**bot railed about NAFTA and she won't even look at a democrat anymore. I honestly believe that NAFTA wasn't a good policy. I think that welfare reform hurt many people and that it should have been rewritten.

I consider myself to be a moderate Democrat, but attitudes have shifted sooooo far to the right that I am perceived by some to be of the far left lunatic fringe, which isn't quite true.

I hope that enjoy your time here. :toast:

[charlie]

13. Such drama

You don't bear this onerous burden by your lonesome self. You're just outnumbered.

[justy329]

17. I like drama

:D

but seriously, I was just posting my opinion to try and make this place more welcoming of all mainstream dems.

[JimmyJazz]

22. You don't show your profile, so I don't know how long you have

been here, but it seems a short time to come here and "try and do" anything other than meet some people, have some discussions and express your opinions.

Right now, it may seem that there are mostly far left wingers here, but that isn't necessarily the case. We have just taken a serious blow and people are acting in a very passionate manner.

Plus, many, many people here respect and admire Bill Clinton - I assure you, they are here.

Please don't make us out to be the nut jobs that Free Republic would have you believe we are. DU is full of moderate dems, progressives, socialist, and other non-republican types. Perhaps you want to consider giving us more of a chance.

[justy329]

24. thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I do intend to stay here for a very long time. I guess I should just avoid the conversations that I disagree with in the first place, to avoid getting angry all the time.

[JimmyJazz]

27. No - it just takes a while for people to get to know you.

You'll find your niche - same as everyone else. You don't have to avoid those conversations and you shouldn't be getting angry - it's a discussion board.

Besides, I have found some really incredibly bright people here with whom I disagree, but with whom I enjoy debating...

This place is wonderful and I do hope you stick around and get to know some of us. I think the thing you will find here is that people have different opinions, but those opinions are normally based on well thought out argument - it can be rather eye opening at times.

Again, welcome to DU - don't be discouraged.

[ChiciB1]

16. Hey, I'm A LEFTY Liberal

but still support our candidates! We all have preferences and some get a little heated. However, I think the most important thing is not to lose sight of the fact that we have to stick together.

As a leftist, I believe we need to keep our tent FULL! I'm not crazy about some Dem's and admit that the reason is because they "pander" a bit too much! My beef comes when Congressional Dem's just sit and roll over. Unfortunately that's been happening all too often! As a "boomer" I know how it feels to be part of real activism and that feeling is very rewarding!

You know that old saying "If you don't STAND for something, you'll FALL for anything!" We don't need Congress-people who just "peep" once in a while, we need them to "roar!"

[moggie12]

18. Nope, I'm here (although I do seem to get flamed a lot)

I like this site a lot even though I'm more of a centrist and many DUers are 100 miles to the left of me politically.

Like you, I'm a proud Democrat, but I have to admit I've been bashing many Democratic office-holders lately -- I'm incredibly frustrated by what I see as a lack of backbone and smarts on many Democrats' part in standing up to Bush. At the moment I'm a huge Barbara Boxer fan: That woman's got some guts!

That said, I don't like the wholesale bashing of Democrats for every single thing they do. For example, I don't think it was fair to criticize them for not challenging the election results -- I didn't think we had conclusive proof of fraud and I think they would've looked ridiculous if they did (oh crap, I'm going to get flamed again). I also don't like the "perfection-seeking" tendency -- for example, bashing Reid or others if you don't agree with them 100% on all issues. There's so many issues out there, it's almost impossible to find a person whose voting record you agree with 100%. To call them traitors or worse is over-the-top in my opinion.

One thing, though, since you mentioned Lieberman: Before I started reading stuff on DU, I would've said Lieberman is an okay guy. Since coming here, however, I've had my eyes opened a bit: His virulent pro-Iraq war stance and his support of Wall Street give-aways have made me change my opinion of him. In fact, I'm hoping a strong primary challenger comes along and beats him -- that's how bad his influence on the Democratic Party has been in my opinion.

In sum, however, I agree with you that DU as a whole leans very far to the left. Unfortunately, I think that scares away a lot of more "moderate" people who might otherwise stay and get more involved in politics as a result. People seem to be very hard on "newbies" (people with low # of posts who are new to the site), attacking them instead of gently helping them to "see the light". That's a real shame I think.

[justy329]

19. I know they are hard on newbies...

that is why I have to whine so much... to up my count and be more respected. :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:

Just Kidding.

[slay]

21. People here exercise their right to be critical of ALL politicians...

...even democratic ones (gasp!). It is not just our right to be critical of our own party leaders, but our duty. The great thing about the democratic party is that our beliefs can change and be strengthened through knowledge and understanding. Thankfully we don't have to just sit back and tow the party line the way the republicans do.
:toast:

[Acryliccalico]

23. Hi justy329

you belong here if you don't agree the government we have now is a government that represents us. :kick:

[hippiechick]

25. DU is too passive, too centrist oriented, IMO.

:hippie:

[peacetalksforall]

26. Your darn right! You may be where many of us were

before information about what has been going on was difficult to get and sources came from newspapers, mainstream magazines, and networks. Also, all of us had different opinions about the influence of corporations. And we seemed to have more traditional politicians and leaders.

The theft of our rights and the domination of so-called christians and the crass agenda of the banking, investment, fed reserve, ceos, military, intelligence, and media cabal descended on us at a very accelerated pace related to the sinking domination of the U.S. and the rising independence of countries rich in earth resources.

We are angry, even Independents, at three things - our leaders are leaning right, they can't seem to speak out and tell it like it is, and they are too traditional and polite - for these times. Their diplomacy comes off as acquiessence. The right seems to be able to shut them up or intimidates them quite easily.

Impatience and even disgust with these people rises in relation to the atrocities of the right and the quickly descending threat of the loss of our constitution, bill of rights, and beliefs that we were all raised with - military for defense, right to vote and have it count, separations of church and state - to name a few.

I am an Independent who has to believe in the Democratic Party because too many part-time citizens can't take anything new or bother to learn.
We have every right to be angry with our leaders.

Their mouths and their feet move to slowly relative to the threat.

[RUMPLEMINTZ]

28. I havent been

around long either (although I've been reading for some time) but I respect the fact that you spoke out. I'm kind of afraid to say anything if I disagree because I'm new so I usually only post when I can add something positive.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

30. Hi RUMPLEMINTZ!!

:hi: Welcome to DU! :hi:

Thanks for posting this- it's always good for the mods and admin to know how people are feeling, as that way we can help make for a more enjoyable experience here at DU!

[RUMPLEMINTZ]

32. ncrainbowgrrl, THANX for the warm welcome.

I really do enjoy reading all of the different viewpoints. I guess I'm far left on some issues and moderate on others.

[slay]

29. So your answer to feeling "alone" is to attack the liberals?

Do you really think unity will be found by attacking what you describe as the "far, far, far left-wing fringe"? Liberals are already unwelcome in the republican party, now here in the democratic party too? Huh? You make it sound as if something is wrong with liberals (I know, you said you are a liberal, but your post sure doesn't sound that way). Perhaps the republican party would be more to your liking - where everyone is supposed to think exactly alike and tow the party line. As part of that "far, far, far left-wing fringe" you described, I like the fact that we question everyone and everything. We don't just blindly accept the status quo and do as we're told. It is my belief that, as a party, we should embrace our differences and come together as a party that wants a better world for everyone including both centrists and liberals, and even republicans.

[justy329]

31. Stop repeating the myth that everyone in the GOP

thinks exactly alike.

There are big splits in the party. "The Volvo Republicans" are socially moderate or even liberal. They include Todd Whitman and Pataki and Giuliani and Arnold and Weld and Snowe and Collins and Chaffee and Specter (less than the others).

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Finding Rawls]

37. sigh

"we should embrace our differences and come together"

What does that mean? Honestly, I would like to know what the implications of that philosophy would be for the Democratic Party. What does it mean for a Pro-Life Democrat? What does it mean for a federalist Democrat?

[slay]

71. It means we should try and get along and not sigh at each others posts

It's not about being "pro-life". You can be "pro-life" in your personal beliefs but still allow others to choose for themselves.

The republicans call their intollerance of a female's right to choose "pro-life". That is not a good phrase to associate yourself with. Democrats need to take back control of our language and argueing points. Centrists dems seem unable to do this because all they do is try to counter the republican talking points. Here is an article about how the republicans manipulate language in their favor and frame the debate.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0912-20.htm

[Finding Rawls]

81. Well

Your lack of response to my question leads me to believe that your statement really had no meaning. It just sounded like a good thing to say.

[left is right]

35. I am very liberal

always have been. But I am also pragmatic. I won't withhold my vote for a Dem politician that doesn't always vote the way I think s/he should. However, I am quick to write a letter detailing what a bone-headed vote it was. I have even wrote things like: "my next general election vote for you will be conducted while holding my nose.
I welcome the wide range of political thought on this board, but I feel a certain amount of kinship with those who recognize that there is an element in the far right wing that are actively acting on their agenda against democracy. Maybe most of us liberals feel a deep, abiding urge to inform the moderates of that. I figure the mods already sense this or they would be hanging out at the RU site.

[Duncan Grant]

36. Did you really write this sentence?

"But, back to my point. Am I alone? Do other people who loyally support out (sic) Democratic Party and feel they are srong(sic) Democrats feel that this site is far, far, far too left-dominated who post nothing but vitriol against well... everything."

No wonder you feel alone, justy329. If this is typical of your posts here at DU, it shouldn't suprise you that you're not getting any traction!

The classy thing to do now is to apologize (in a new thread, please).
edit: skin thickness

[A-Schwarzenegger]

65. LOFL.

"The classy thing to do now is to apologize (in a new thread, please)."

[Duncan Grant]

67. Why people look for validation in GD:P is beyond me!

I feel the same about this as I would a good dinner party: what would it be like to have a guest who constantly demands, "Pay attention to me!"? Obviously, we're all insensitive cads not to have modified our behavior to suit your delicate sensibilities.

For once, I like someone to clean up their damage (publicly - in a new thread) or at least find a more creative way to get the approval they so desperately desire.

Far, far, far leftists blah, blah, blah, indeed. :eyes:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

69. The country and the planet are being fuck*d in the as*

by the biggest insane boneheads to ever defile the WH, and
with the collusion of too many lily livered Dems.
But that's no reason for us to get all extreme and upset
about it. We can express our opinion and even criticize
whilst still maintaining our niceness and demurity.

[jonnyblitz]

38. I suspect there are MANY who share your view.

I certainly don't and often feel surrounded by people calling me fringe, far left loonie, etc. because I dare criticize a centrist DEM who supports some scary Bush policy like the War or that faith based crap. It depends on your perspective I guess. I know I personally need to develop a thick skin at times. Politics isn't for the meek.

[sendero]

39. There is nothing...

..."centrist" about rolling over for the radical right's agenda.

While in aggregate, I believe my political beliefs place me in the center (pro economic justice, pro repro rights, pro gun rights, etc), I'm tired of Dems voting for tax cuts for the rich, confirming abject failures to the cabinet, etc, etc, etc.

Does that make me a far leftist? Not a chance, and it's your mistake to think so.

[Lexingtonian]

40. Yes, there is exaggeration

But if you look the fringy and most hysterical threads, they tend to have all the same people (a few dozen) going overboard. It's a bit culty- they reinforce each other in their groupthink and perceived grievances, change idolatries a fair amount. Basically, they're people whose essential grievance is their feeling of lack of power and they want Salvific Magic to happen. Of course they're always telling us it's because they're the Only People Doing Anything To Change Things. Compare what they say and what they do, and the conclusions to draw are obvious.

That being said, a large chunk of the upper tier folk of the Democratic Party are in various fashions inefficient, lackadaisical, and obtuse in their principles and calculations. Some people here take that personally: it's an eternal Purity contest for them, as if purity in rhetoric somehow changed facts.

Truth is, the Party is in transition. The GOP is consigned to being the party that represents the Past and continues to repeat it- easy enough to do, but an escapism. Democrats have been slow to change; the denial that the Party has to represent Modernity and guide the transition to Modernity with acuity has been very deep- blocs of Democrats still resist taking that role, preferring to be passive at that if not reactionary too.

The internal renewal that takes- in ideas, in politicians and abilities, in moral courage, in accepting the loss of power involved- also affects Democratic activists and means the loss of voter blocs, and a need to appeal to different ones according to their revised sense of needs. And giving up up of a lot of ideas long held as too easy and narrow.

This giving up of ideas that are too narrow and easy is hard to do. And that's a lot of the bitter argument on this board- what revision is good enough, which half-way station in the thought process is far enough. A lot of people can't stay focussed on the matter at stake in its substance and lash out at the people involved for any political manouver they weren't made privy to.

There will be a point where there will be more of a sense of measure and a sense of the principle at core of all that people here are trying to do/demand/stand for. But that will have more to do with the upper tiers of the Party figuring out the game than loud and deficient ideologues making noise here.

[housewolf]

41. Welcoome to DU, and

You'll find many folks here with views similar to yours. You want to criticize Condi and Gonzales and the current administration.... hey, you fit right in! We're all criticizing those things.

As for the "deeper end" of criticisms, something I realized recently is that the left is basically extremely idealistic. Some call us pessimists but it's because what we see in real life falls short of our idealism. It's not that we see the glass as half empty, it's that we see it as being able to hold SO MUCH MORE! And we yearn for that "more"... whatever it is.

So some lose a sense of realism and hold leader to an extremely high standard. We look for purity and higher-than-human ideals and when we don't find it in someone we perceive as a leader, we have a tendency to "eat our own." It's not based in hate as much as it is based in disappointment that our leaders are more realistic than we are and less idealistic than we are.

Not everyone here holds that stance but some who do are quite vocal about it. For good or for bad, some on the left do have a tendency to blame ourselves first, its just that some of us take responsibility that way (and keep it in the family, so to speak) rather than projecting it outward (like onto an opposition party or enemies in the world).

I hope you'll stick it out here. There are some wonderful folks here, so good discussions and lots of diversity.

Welcome, and that's for speaking up.

[ermoore]

42. Yeah, amen to that.

This site, while I've been frequenting it for over two years and will continue to do so, is about 3 klicks to the left of Mao. Totally not even in the same ballpark as the majority of Americans.

[Q]

43. The moderates suggest that the 'lefties' should form their own party...

...but little do they realize that the Democratic party has always been left of center. That's why many Southern Dems became Republicans in the 60s...when the party made a stand on civil rights.

When some talk about the 'left'...they're talking about those who believe in the Constitution, civil, worker's, women's and human rights. But the moderate New Democrats want nothing to do with any of these issues because the corporations who finance their campaigns and careers want the tax dollars currently invested in social programs to come to them.

Perhaps you haven't noticed...but our government is corrupt to the bone. It should piss off any American to see their party become part of it.

[ailsagirl]

44. But are our people standing up for what we believe in?

Beneath all the sound bites and the spin doctors, you have only to look at these last few weeks and see that, clearly, they AREN'T standing up for us.

Twenty-nine Dems spoke out over the disenfranchisement in Ohio (I'm so grateful that many did but... what happened to the others?).
Only TWO senators stood up against Rice's confirmation.

And I find out that Obama is for missile strikes against Iran.

Maybe my expectations are unrealistic?? But is it too much to ask that the Dems vote against the neocon agenda??

[Guaranteed]

56. Some just care about the (D). nt

[jonnyblitz]

58. exactly. the (D) could be supporting every Bush program

under the sun but they would still hiss and snarl and redbait those of us who would point it. Hell, I bet if Bush was a (D) these people would be supporting him and all his current programs.

[BlueInRed]

45. I think part of the problem with differences is sources of information

I think that a person would come to completely different conclusions about who is right (in the sense of correct) and who is wrong based strictly on their choice of reading materials and news information.

If you rely on the MSM for your news, you are going to be working from a different set of facts. I know on the subject of Joe Lieberman, my opinion of him changed when I started working more from home and had CSPAN2 on all the time. I noticed that his votes on many issues didn't seem to fit with his 2000 campaign spiel. And it happened on things I couldn't imagine -- little amendments that seemed like no brainers, and at that point, I started seeing a distinction between self-labeled centrists. Some of them I completely agreed with, others I thought seemed to have a different agenda. I would never have changed my opinion if my schedule hadn't changed and if I hadn't seen the CSPAN2 votes with my own eyes.

On the vote fraud issue, some of the people who wrote factual accounts are award winning journalists, but are presented in the MSM as outlandish wackos. So, I think a person's opinion on that issue will be strongly influenced by what sources of information you view as credible. I really think that is what has happened on the vote fraud issue and Ohio electors issue. It all boils down to what you view as credible sources of information.

If you can't agree on the facts, it's even harder to agree on what to do about them. I think the people on this board read a lot of stuff that never appears in the MSM and that many people never see or hear. JIMO.

[Pastiche423]

66. Adding one point to your post...

Prior to the internet, it was close to impossible to know how our representatives voted day to day, on issues dear to us.

Now we can find out w/i minutes how each and every one of them voted. Their votes draw a much clearer picture of where they stand and how much they really work for and listen to us, their constituents.

Some of us that might seem too critical to the OP, actually take those votes very seriously. Those votes change the direction our country is heading, drastically in some incidences.


The day that banged me upside the head w/the reality of how/why some representatives vote as they do, was on October 10, 2002. Many voted the way they did on that fateful day because they were afraid of being unpatriotic, afraid for their political careers and even some afraid for their lives. They did not listen, nor vote for their constituents. They voted for death.

You're damn straight I am going to be critical!

[Sparkly]

46. My opinion...

This is just my take on it -- my opinion only...

First, there's a certain fashion here. It seems to me many people here like to think of themselves as being as far left as possible, to the point of being in competition for leftwardness. To some, if you're at all to the right of Marx you're a "Repug Lite" or a "DINO!" There's a "Lefter-Than-Thou" condescending attitude from some that makes it seem as if they believe they and they alone care about other people; everybody else is some variation of a callous warmongering animal-abusing human-rights abolishing selfish capitalist because nobody else really feels it or cares like they do, nobody is as sensitive and aware... including those politicians who deal with the political reality of consensus and compromise with Republicans in the legislature, and anybody who defends them.

Second, idealism vs. reality. I've got plenty of socialist leanings, but I also understand the reality that other people exist, vote, and hold office and we have to work to accomplish what we can. We don't live in a country that will elect Dennis Kucinich or Maxine Waters or Michael Moore as president; and Greens, Socialists and Ralph Nader have a great thing going but none have ever had to negotiate an agreement, build a concensus, or pass a bill with people who are opposites; that makes it awfully easy to talk the talk, and when it comes to running in elections against Democrats, that easy talk can actually hurt progress, imo. Idealism is great until it runs up against reality. Being "radical" is helpful only insofaras it actually does something.

Third, philosophically there's a point where the far left meets the far right full circle. You will see people here linking "leftist" websites that quote extreme rightwing websites; you will see people here defending Ramsey Clark, a man who'd defend Hitler and claim the holocaust never happened; you will see people espousing personal liberties to the point of rightwing libertarianism at some circular point where pacifism meets anarchy and assault weapons are the key to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

All of which is why it's hilarious that freepers troll here whining that since their point of view isn't welcomed here, we're all "in lockstep." Hah!! I think the main difference is that on DU, we all strive to deal with the truth, and whatever we may think, in some way and to some extent, we've thought it through.

[John_H]

47. When you subtract the trolls and the non-dems

you get about the same percentage of one-percenters here at DU than you get anywhere else--about one percent.

[Andromeda]

50. We have a lot of diverse views in this forum,

and all views are represented here. You will find opinions diametrically opposed to yours and some opinions that agree with yours.

There was a time I felt out of place but I realized that there are many others who feel as I do so don't be afraid to say what you feel.

I'm center-left, I guess, but I don't think I really fit into a particular mold. I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal.

I don't think it matters if you are labeled a certain thing but it does matter where your values are. I have Democratic values and feel the Democratic party offers the best representation for me.

Most people on DU still support the Democratic party even if though they may be a little disillusioned. I wouldn't say the majority of people here don't like Bill Clinton. There are some but I think they're in the minority -- they're just more vocal.

I'm sick of the Kerry bashing too but I think he has a big following here as well.

People just want to vent and they lash out because they're angry because of the way the election turned out and they want somebody to blame.

[ulysses]

51. you're not alone - you're being followed.

The left-wing fringe enforcers will be at your doorstep any moment.

:eyes:

[American Tragedy]

52. I am only alienated by sympathy for authoritarian socialism/communism

which I hate passionately, as an advocate for individual freedom. I despise dictatorship, no matter how many times they try to squeeze the words 'proletariat' or 'workers' into their speeches and propaganda.

You aren't alone, nor should you feel that you are. This site exemplifies just how broad the liberal political spectrum can be. I would call myself a progressive libertarian, which does put me at odds with some DUers, though there is still more to unite us than tear us apart.

[faithfulcitizen]

53. no you're not, the problem is....

many of the "the far, far, far left-wing fringe" are very vocal. Many here feel that way at times, particularly about the vitriol posts. But as many have said, you just have to get a thick skin, say your peace, and not worry if it's not the most popular thing to say. Welcome! :hi:

[Guaranteed]

54. I don't mean this to sound the way it's going to sound- but it

could be that you just haven't been here long enough.

If you stick around, you're going to learn about a lot of stuff that's going to really piss you off.

[DaveinMD]

55. its just the extremely vocal few

who are as you describe. You have the right attitude.

[kerrygoddess]

57. I consider myself to be a realist & a liberal

I consider myself to be a realist & a liberal. I live in L.A., grew up in MA, I'm a feminist, pro-choice, anti-war, anti-assault weapons, I'm a member fo the ACLU, I have a kid in public school and despise the establishment B.S. that happens in the school systems, and I do not believe that religion belongs in the politics of this country.

I also get that abortion should not be used as birth control, that people have the right to bear arms in this country (responsibly), and that we needed a man with foreign policy and military experience in the W.H. to clean up Bush's mess.

I don't feel we get anywhere from attacking our politicians publicly and I wholeheartedly believe it hurt us in this election.

Demographic studies have proven that there are more moderates in this country than conservatives or liberals.

The Kerry campaign was right to attract the moderate vote and if some of those who consider themselves to be on the far end of the left spectrum, would wake up and smell the coffee, they might understand that we need to be tolerant of everyone regardless of their believes.

The Democrats are the "tolerance" party, yet some people feel that it is their right to piss and moan about every little thing they don't agree with to the point of making us look like blithering idiots.

Sometimes it appears that 90% of the threads here are rants against this politician or that politician, rather than constructive threads about how WE can ALL make a difference.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

59. Please try not to post such vitriol against, well ... everyone.

*SF*

[justy329]

74. ok REPUBLICAN governor of California

[A-Schwarzenegger]

76. You're no fool!

Need a bridge?

[AntiCoup2K4]

60. Another typical day at DU, I guess

Doesn't
Look all that
Complicated, really.

Incidentally, it seems that most of the
New posters around here all seem to be
Taking the same "centrist" positions,
Especially where the DNC chairman nominations are concerned.
Really though, though the battle seems never ending it's
Nothing personal, we can assure you.

[Yupster]

61. I'm with you justy

I'm a plain old Democratic moderate from Texas.

I end up disagreeing with a lot said here, but you can still enjoy fun conversations and learn good info.

The only thing I still have a hard time ignoring are the conspiracy theories. There just always seems to be one du-jour.

[Jackie97]

62. No, you're not alone.

You're one in most of the Democratic moderate majority. This board is not typical of the common Democrat (which is most of the time moderate).

The problem with finding a board for moderates is that moderates most of the time don't have a lot of conviction. They most of the time don't have enough to start their own boards. At least, that's what I think.

So what if you're an oddball? You can add something here. You can be the positive voice when everybody else here is feeling dispair because you can show them how it's not as bad as they think. They can tell you why they think the way they do. You might find yourself agreeing with them. Dissent is a good thing.

[Adelante]

77. I love this

"So what if you're an oddball? You can add something here." :7

It's very true, too.

[leanin_green]

63. Justy, a lot of people here are really frustrated.

Imagine how many of the moderate Repubs feel about the ultra-right wing ideas and vitriol in their party(problem is, most of them are in power).

I'm guilty of a lot of Democrat mistrust, but, I mistrusted them before coming to DU. I'm a Democrat because they basically speak to my values.
I mistrust many of them because they are in positions of power. Perhaps I have issues with authority. But in today's political climate and the condition of government as it appears to this date, they share part of the blame. They've profited from corporate lobbyist's, contributed to a disastrous foreign policy and war, backed down from the Republican smear and character assassination campaigns and continue to resist the will of the people in their own party.

I will continue to be a Democrat, but, I will now also fight against those Democrats that show no spine and seek to move my party more to the right in an attempt to curry favor and political advantage.

I've never slammed Kerry, however. Something still makes me trust that he hasn't finished with * yet. But I do understand your feelings on this issue. Sometimes it feels like many here are just so "superior."
I don't waste time with posts that play to the small-mindedness and thrashing mentalities. I seek honest, sincere and well-meaning dialog. There is a great deal of that here.

[jdots]

73. You are very correct

The frustration level has never been this high,alot of want to go forward when we see things going backwards.

[MADem]

64. I am a SCREAMING LIBERAL

...when it comes to protecting the poor, the disenfranchised, the elderly, the sick, the children...oh, and voting rights--I'm strong on that!!!

I admire JFK, RFK, Big Dog Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, though I am tepid about Joe Lieberman, mainly because he was obsequious to the weecowboy when he did not NEED to be. But hey, if he was the nominee for president, he'd get my vote, because I am a Democrat.

Big picture, though, I guess I am moderate in some respects, liberal in others. The Golden Rule works for me, but I am always willing to give an underdog a break. The old rising tide lifts all boats!

Look, as far as this website goes, you are going to get the full spectrum, from conservative Democrats to uber-liberals and pissed off radicals. Don't get too invested in the shit/spit-fights; if you feel you have to post your opinion, do so and move on--what do they say about wrestling with a pig? You get all muddy and the pig likes it. Pissing contests are really counterproductive, someone has to clean up all that pee at the end of the day!

It's a big tent. Everyone has a perspective, if you agree, you agree, if you don't, well, you don't! Don't let it ruin your day.

My attitude towards those who are excessively negative is this--if ya don't like the party, and cannot, due to ideology, hubris, or whatever, work for your change from within, move on. Nice having you, appreciate your cogent contributions, good luck in your future endeavors, and best of luck, truly. No harm, no foul. That's the beauty of America (the beauty that the Democratic Party is trying to preserve, IMHO).

Be true to yourself, be strong in your opinions, keep your mind open, because we all can learn, but don't get personally upset, and know when to just say "Oh well, that's YOUR opinion, but not mine!" Excessive engagement, once you've made your point, does nothing except cause you angst, and provide virtual joy to those who get a kick out of causing dissention (and while that is absolutely NOT SOP here, it can happen).

Be selective, engage in the discussions that you feel will benefit your understanding, don't post if you are too pissed off, and let the other stuff sink like a stone.

Water will eventually seek its own level!

[slay]

72. Same here - Liberal, open-minded, and proud of it!

:)

[liveoaktx]

68. As one you attempted to insult in your *Hillary is not a Dino* thread

by lumping me in with *extreme libs* AS IF IT WERE AN INSULT, have to say that if you're not comfortable with people exercising their freedom of speech and disagreeing with you, I hope you ARE alone.

You mistake vitriol with honest expressions of concern about not blindly pledging allegiance to a party that cannot be differentiated, in some regards, from the Repubs.

And, sheesh, AS IF being on the left and a liberal is something to be ashamed of. Pffffftttttt!

[justy329]

75. no it's not

but constant hating on the Clintons, Obama, Kerry, and others while supporing insurgents in Iraq on a democratic board is something to be ashamed of.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justy329]

83. I regret that you think that I am a troll,

because I am not.

[Bridget Burke]

85. Apparently somebody considered justy329 a troll...

Let us not speak ill of The Departed!

[MsMagnificent]

70. Here, I think, you find people willing to admit to mistakes of Dem leaders

whilst still staying with and belonging to the party.

From what I've observed, it's pretty much the Republicans who blanket their politicians with uncritical laud -- no matter what horrendous decisions are made, to the mob of Republicans their leaders can do no wrong.

Here, perhaps more than other Democratic sites (although I hope not!) the posters are not afraid to voice what they feel their politicians have sometimes done as wrong. We all make mistakes, and there will never be a politician who can, I believe, make decisions that are 100% in line with any constituent.

I'm a Democrat because I feel we are the party who do the right thing. Not always, unfortunately, but at least most of the time -- and when any certain politican doesn't I can assure you that I at least usually do not keep my criticisms to myself :D

A good personal example is my frustration, anger and dismay when Chuck Schumer seemed to be extremely partisan with the Waco investigation and tried to whitewash everything that was done by any Democrat in charge or power.
You see -- if this type of whitewashing is wrong when the Republicans do it, it is surely just as wrong as when the Democrats (or any other politico) do(es) it.

IMO anyways.

And I am not going to let that slide...
there are certain absolute truths and certain actions, morals and above all ultimate and morally correct tenet's of justice which stand independant and apart of the realm of partisanship which I expect from our elected officials, and indeed expect no less.

Otherwise, we here would be relegated to exactly the same class and level as the Dittoheads.
That is most definitely wrong.

No human being is perfect, and each elected official is responsible for each & all their decisions made on the behalf of us. If they are wrong upon instance(s) they are wrong; and chastised they will surely be... yet it doesn't mean that every decision they make is therefore wrong and it would be foolish to dispose of them just for a few faulty or bad decisions or points of view when on the whole they perform perfectly adequately representing us.

Our politicians are under constant scrutiny, and as they work FOR us they are always subject to 'job or employee review'.
And we have the duty to attempt to keep them focused on making the right decisions upon our behalf.
Elsewise we vote them out and try to find someone who will better represent us and what we Democrats believe in and stand for.

And truthfully, I wouldn't have it any other way.


Edit: BTW I do not think a "majority" here disapprove of Bill Clinton, and as far as Kerry goes -- it is my personal opinion he was the biggest waste of time since ... shoot I'm stumped for even a close comparison. Kerry, despite all his tough talk and affirmations to "Fight" and telling us "I got your back" rolled over like a dog (yep I always use that image for him now) before many many votes were counted and despite the widespread --and well publicized-- troubling reports about election irregularities in many places but especially in Ohio.

He let us all down, badly. He broke many, many good and true hearts. He is now 'dead to me' (at least a non-entity) and to many Democrats.
He "fought" about as hard as a half-dead single segment of a baited worm and has no place in the future Democratic Party unless he's part of the just-past leadership whose motto was & still may be: "Professional Losers 'R Us"
Something which I fervently hope too will change.

[seito]

79. You are not alone

I support all Democrats that stand against the corporate and neocon takeover of this country.

[DemGirl7]

84. I feel sometimes that I'm in the same boat as you...

I'm not extra liberal, but I'm more in between a liberal and moderate democrat...I'm a big Clinton fan, I don't see Kerry as being really bad, heck I don't even mind Libeberman all that much even though he seems to be somewhat of Repug butt kisser sometimes which I don't like that much... and I also feel alot of people on here get a little carried away sometimes in insulting many democrats.

[Lerkfish]

86. I like the diversity of opinion, I dislike the orders to conform...

I think its more dangerous what I've witnessed: the attempts, either through ridicule, chiding or marginalization -- to discount the diversity of voice here.
I'm not sure if I'm a leftist or a centrist or whatever, since that appears to be a relative term depending on who is standing next to you at the time.
But I do find the need to reign in the thoughts of others counterproductive. Are we a big tent or a corridor? Who gets to decide?
If I feel the DLC is mistakenly leading us the wrong direction, am I wrong to express that? (as an example).

I find threads like these, although understandable in level of frustration, counterproductive to open discussion.

IMHO

[MoonRiver]

87. The majority here support General Wesley Clark in our polls for pres.

Yet we are attacked for being out of the mainstream of the Democratic Party!

My current antagonistic feelings toward our Democratic leadership involve the fact that they don't seem to know how to win! Our leaders should have taken hold of computerized voting like pit bulls 4 years ago. For awhile we had a majority in the Senate and could have really made a stink. Instead, they ignored the entire issue, and massive voter fraud ensued, AGAIN, in 2002, thereby causing us to lose our Senate majority and become further decimated in the House.

I just don't get this mentality of appeasement toward pukes. But until it ends we will continue to lose, and I will continue to be disgusted. In terms of philosophy, I consider myself a liberal. I'm for national health care, freedom of choice, common sense gun control, the social security safety net, environmental protections, and international cooperation. I don't believe these positions put me in a fringe group. But if they do God help this country.

[eridani]

88. There are two spectra to consider here--

--the first is the center/left spectrum, and regular posters are all over the map here.

--the second is the roll over/fight back spectrum, and I think that the majority here are very seriously pissed off at any Dem who appears to cave in on any issue, and for good reason.