I wanna be a realist, too!

[ulysses]

It troubles my sleep to know that my silly idealism puts me so at odds with the bulk of the American people, and I'm hoping that our more conservative DUers can help put me right. I'm so out of touch I don't even know where I'm out of touch!

There seem to be so many realities, though. Should we be giving up on universal education? Abortion rights? The rest of the social safety net? Should I accept preemptive war as the best way to deal with the rest of the world? Should I join our conservative brethren in the attempt to deregulate all businesses?

Help uly back to reality!

[recovering democrat]

1. Idealism isn't silly.

In everyone's life, at some time, our inner fire goes out. It is then burst into flame by an encounter with another human being. We should all be thankful for those people who rekindle the inner spirit. –Albert Schweitzer

It is the idealists among us who can do this.

[ulysses]

2. but it is, though.

God knows, it's resulted in me doing all sorts of crazy, "fringe-left" things like protesting the Iraq war and expecting Dem representatives to do things they can't. It's dangerous, I tell you!

[ulysses]

3. c'mon, y'all.

We have a great, burgeoning centrist group here at DU. Let me know where I'm going wrong!

[RafterMan]

5. Your feelings are hurt

Do you want a band-aid?

[ulysses]

10. not at all!

My skin's pretty thick after 3 1/2 years on DU. I just want to correct my ways.

[RafterMan]

14. In that case

1) Realism is not centrism
2) Divide and conquor
3) A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step
4) You're not either with us or against us

[ulysses]

15. Realism is not centrism?

Are you sure? I mean, it's been the operating meme for years that left=idealism and center=realism. Don't go changing on me now!

[RafterMan]

16. Yes, I am absolute sure

Realism is not centrism.

[ulysses]

18. but then, what is realism?

Don't tell me you're one of those fringe pinkos like Jitterbug!

[RafterMan]

21. Realism defiens a strategy

Centrism defines a goal.

[ulysses]

then what is the realistic strategy?

[RafterMan]

24. You're beginning to remind me

of that old computer program ELIZA.

[ulysses]

26. heh!

No bot here, I can assure you. It's not a difficult question, really. "Realism" gets used here regularly as a cudgel with which to beat progressives about the ears, and I want to know what that realism is. If it's a strategy, what is that strategy?

[RafterMan]

29. It's not progressives

it's progressives' idealistic *strategy*.

Say you want to stop the Iraq war. Idealists want to broaden the issue to include Israel, the Balkans, oilmen and imperialism. Realists want to narrow the issue to just the war so the zionists, oilmen and imperialists who are against it will broaden the front.

Say there are five issues that are important to you. The idealist sees anyone who disagrees on one issue as suspect, the realist sees anyone who agrees on one issue as an ally.

Say you want universal health care. The idealist denounces half-measures, the realist proposes the smallest benefit that people will demand more of.

Idealists like fell swoops, realists prefer organic growth.

Yes, I'm exaggerating for effect.

[ulysses]

30. yeah, just a bit broad there.

.

[RafterMan]

31. Well

pretend it doesn't exist then.

Idealists are good at that.

[ulysses]

32. you admit that you're exaggerating for effect

then demand that I either accept the exaggeration or ignore anything you're actually saying? Ok...

[RafterMan]

33. Nope, that's what you chose to do

not what I asked.

[ulysses]

34. "pretend it doesn't exist then."

Your words, friend, in response to my saying that your statements were pretty broad.

[RafterMan]

35. Forget it

[JitterbugPerfume]

7. Uly

we are commie pinko libruls in a world of " I got mine" centrists and conservatives

boy oh boy is THAT ever hard to live with

[moggie12]

4. Centrist here -- wanna talk?

I don't think we have to change our beliefs, just our tactics. I would like Dems to develop a concrete set of proposals (like Newt's contract with America) that would include specific goals like strengthening the Pell Grant program, strengthening veterans programs, etc. There's too much "labeling" going on -- people think they don't like "liberals" but they would probably agree 100% with some "liberal" proposals. I think we need to start small and then, over time, as we demonstrate what we can do, enlarge programs as everyone sees fit. I don't think we should propose "universal education" right now but instead propose specific tax deductions for education (will appeal to middle class and "rich") and more funding of Pell (it's a travesty that this is being cut now).

[ulysses]

13. right - I'm just asking which tactics we need to change.

Fighting for universal education and abortion rights, for example. Destructive tactics.

on edit: by "universal education" I mean functioning public schools. If it's time for those to go, then let's not monkey around with vouchers. Just close 'em!

[moggie12]

25. Don't understand your reply

Are you saying you think fighting for univ. education and abortion rights are destructive tactics in the current atmosphere?

If so, that's hyberbole. Also, it's hard to talk about all the myriad issues constituting today's political debate -- so many issues, covering so many areas. Education is a vastly different issue than abortion rights and mixing the two confuses an intelligent discussion of the issue you orginally raised.

As to the point I was trying to make in my post, do you have any thoughts on the need to take a more tactical, pragnatic approach to achieveing your goals?

[ulysses]

28. I mentioned those two issues specifically

because they're issues being floated by party centrists. The idea seems to be that fighting for those is destructive and out of step with the mainstream. If I'm wrong in that understanding, please let me know.

As to the point I was trying to make in my post, do you have any thoughts on the need to take a more tactical, pragnatic approach to achieveing your goals?

More tactical or pragmatic than what? I'm waiting for RafterMan to give me an idea of what realistic tactics are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. You Set Up A Lovely False Dichotomy

A man of your considerable intelligence should know better....

[ulysses]

11. how so?

It's just that I've finally seen the truth that the party centrists have been trying to explain to me for years, and I want to know exactly where we have to make the changes.

[KittyWampus]

8. People With Their Heads In The Clouds End Up Falling Off Cliffs

so the best thing to do is develop an inner compass and trust it to guide you as you do things like compromise and make choices.

It is a less than perfect world... that's why there's evolution.

And who is to say THEIR ideals are best? :)

[JitterbugPerfume]

9. the reality is

our party is slowly buy surely being pulled to the right

[ulysses]

12. isn't that as it should be, Jitterbug?

We need to get with the program!









;-)

[AVID]

17. Don't give up, Ulysses, there has to be a beacon

If there are not strong, immovable ideals for which we stand, there is chaos and weakness.

[ulysses]

19. aw hell, am I that transparent?

:D

[blondeatlast]

20. That isn't idealism, friend. It's how the nation has worked and been

a model to the world for over a century.

You aren't loony, it's the people who think the US is broken and needs an enormous overhaul that are loony.

The neocons and the Radical Theocon Right are the loonies. You're an american.

[ulysses]

23. I know.

It's just that, after seeing DUers defend the idea of invading Iran last night, sarcasm is the only response I can make.

[blondeatlast]

27. Ooooh, now I get it. I just got out of health jail yesterday,

so I stayed clear of the GD forums last night. {I'm okay, btw.)

Looks like I'm glad I did. That I could not have taken.

I'm noticing a lot of behavior that is often attributed to beings that reside under aquifer related infrastructure.

[greatauntoftriplets]

36. They WHAT????

:crazy:

I missed that....

:D

[ulysses]

37. let me help you out, greataunt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1520112#1520317

:hi:

[greatauntoftriplets]

38. Seeing is believing, I guess.....

...but I read the thread with disbelief. And a growing sense of hopelessness.

Thanks and :hi:

[Gyre]

22. It's hard swimming against the current.

And it's hard to be aware in times like these. But, you've got to keep your ethic, and speak up against the criminal stupidity (ie, being true to yourself). Otherwise, you're just taking up space unnecessarily.

My advice is to focus on things and people that give you pleasure and forget about the things that drive you nuts. Refuse to take the bait when RWers taunt you, but don't go there yourself. When RWers piss you off, counterattack! Anybody with a thimble-full of intelligence has plenty of ammo to fend them off. "Where's Osama?" "Where's the WMD?" "Why are we still in Iraq?" "What do you think about a country that baldly lies to commit war crimes half-way around the world in a country that never posed a threat to us?" You catch my drift. They'll leave you alone after awhile.

PS. Don't watch TV news or listen to NPR.

Gyre