Kerry et al Excommunication status press conference 9AM Monday/DC

[CatholicEdHead]

The far right fringe Catholic group DeFide will be holding a news conference 9am Monday morning at the National Press club in DC. The Excommunication suit against Kerry is continuing, and the class action lawsuit is being expanded to Senators Edward Kennedy, Tom Harkin, Susan Collins, and former New York Governor Mario Cuomo.

I think this is a waste of their (and the entire Catholic Church's) time, as they are trying to push all any Catholic who does not take the view that overturning Roe vs Wade will end all abortions. If you are Catholic and contact them, they will denouce you as not Catholic. Also notice the cherrypicking of Democratic Party figureheads in this expansion.

http://www.defide.com/

Here is the press release:
http://www.defide.com/news.html?PHPSESSID=55aa9d616ae75ec61697feb501753440&PHPSESSID=c6976d1e95d1252bb886b17e50040945&PHPSESSID=597d5e006a7981d67a738f3e08337ede&PHPSESSID=e0a82ba65ca2b7e5ab102483b54cfa18&PHPSESSID=e0a82ba65ca2b7e5ab102483b54cfa18&PHPSESSID=e0a82ba65ca2b7e5ab102483b54cfa18&PHPSESSID=e0a82ba65ca2b7e5ab102483b54cfa18&PHPSESSID=e0a82ba65ca2b7e5ab102483b54cfa18&PHPSESSID=61342595c91afd664ac47647f24e8780&PHPSESSID=6debbcc9e46d5a7a06f4a80ca16ad201&PHPSESSID=6c36e26f2e94e8b12bcb3f48976333a2&PHPSESSID=6c36e26f2e94e8b12bcb3f48976333a2&PHPSESSID=6c36e26f2e94e8b12bcb3f48976333a2&PHPSESSID=6c36e26f2e94e8b12bcb3f48976333a2&PHPSESSID=6c36e26f2e94e8b12bcb3f48976333a2

PRO-CHOICE CATHOLIC POLITICIANS TO BE SUED FOR HERESY

DATE: 24 JANUARY 2005
EVENT TYPE: News Conference
TIME: 09:00 A.M.
SPONSORED BY: DE FIDE
EVENT LOCATION: National Press Club, Washington D.C., Lisagor Room
DETAILS:

Marc Balestrieri, JCL is the canon lawyer and director of the non-profit organization DE FIDE based in Los Angeles. In an unprecedented class-action ecclesiastical lawsuit filed last summer, he filed a Dual-Denunciation for Heresy and Complaint for Reparation of Harm against Senator John F. Kerry for his support of the civil right to choose abortion. Under Roman Catholic Church law, support of abortion rights constitutes the "Right-to-Murder" Heresy condemned by Pope John Paul II in the Encyclical Evangelium Vitae of 1995. Automatic Excommunication is the penalty incurred for this offense.

Within 11 days of submitting a query with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome, Balestrieri received a personal reply confirming the doctrinal merits of the case written by an expert theologian at the request of a Vatican official.

On Monday DE FIDE will 1) update the Press on the ongoing efforts to stop Kerry�s continuing propagation of the Right-to-Murder Heresy, Sacrilege, and Scandal; 2) detail the new denunciations for Heresy, Sacrilege, and Scandal to be filed against Senators Edward Kennedy, Tom Harkin, Susan Collins, and former New York Governor Mario Cuomo; 3) release to the Press for the first time ever the first set of pending canonical briefs and documents pertaining to the Heresy cases; and 4) additionally release canonical forms inviting Christians and non-Christians alike to join in the class-action ecclesiastical lawsuit against all of the above-named parties.

Balestrieri will be available to answer questions. He will explain in layman's terms the complexities of the unprecedented and extremely rare Heresy cases in Canon law. Finally, he will offer journalists the opportunity for one-on-one interviews.*

*Breakfast will be served. Journalists on deadline can schedule private interviews with Mr. Balestrieri for the period following his formal presentation and Q&A.

CONTACT: Marc Balestrieri : [phone]; [e-mail]

[musette_sf]

1. sued for heresy?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[Clark2008]

15. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our four...no... Amongst our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[greenmutha]

51. ROFLOL! Clark2008...

You crack me up. How's KOEB going? I really miss it, but now I have the TV to actually watch it, so I'm trying to help get the ratings up. Say :hi: to the wimmenfolk for me.

[LiberalFighter]

18. How can it be heresy? If...

Kerry does not personally support abortion. But lets the conscience of others decide what is right. How can Kerry legally restrict the rights of others that are not Catholic or any other religion that totally opposes any abortion for any reason?

They should lose their tax-free status.

[TankLV]

49. I wonder if these same idiots believe in the "rapture" bullshit?

That invention by a single english preacher in the late 1800's, with not a single basis in biblical teachings, would certainly constitute heresy!

[CatholicEdHead]

50. Doubt it

it is not in Catholic dogma. This group is one that is part of the abortion issue over everything else group of Catholics. Nothing else matters to them.

This group clearly is putting the rules of the institution over the spirituality of the Catholic religion.

[blondeatlast]

57. Generally Catholics reject it completely. nt

[IndianaGreen]

2. Let the Holy Inquisition begin!

BTW, why aren't they filing charges against Protestant leaders like Falwell and Robertson? Isn't the Reformation heresy according to the Catholic Church?

This is as good a time as any to repeat what Lenin wrote about religion:

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen�s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfilment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men�s consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

Socialism and Religion (1905)
V. I. Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[American Tragedy]

22. That sounds respectably liberal, akin the attitude of Jefferson.

It's unfortunate that the Soviet Union ultimately banned religion outright. I consider that to be no better than a state that advocates it.

[JVS]

40. Protestants cannot be excommunicated as they are not in communion...

to begin with.

The Vatican excommunicating non-Catholics would be like Ford firing people who work for GM

[Spazito]

3. It is funny how these groups NEVER mention the "right of conscience"

that is every Catholic's right and supercedes dogma:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

[CatholicEdHead]

80. This is in their FAQ

to be a devil's advocate here:

http://www.defide.com/faq.html

"6. Didn’t Vatican II define freedom of conscience for all, not just Catholics? Does not every citizen, regardless of creed, have the right to determine the course of his or her own life?

Response: The Second Vatican Council’s Declaration Dignitatis Humanae on Religious Liberty emphatically teaches that true freedom of conscience is only that based upon the truth. As such, the Council declares that the scope of immunity from coercion by civil authorities in matters of freedom of conscience and religion is limited universally in all places and times by objective moral norms and the just public order in conformity with the Natural Law, present in and known by the hearts of all men (DH§ 2, 7).

Applied to the so-called “right to abortion,” Vatican II teaches that no one has the right to commit murder by abortion under any pretext of freedom of conscience or religion, as the inalienable right to life is a right guaranteed by the Natural Law which exists independently of the Catholic Faith.

A person has the right to choose to be Christian or not. If one does choose to profess public adherence to the Christian Faith, then the profession of the right-to-murder heresy is wholly incompatible with the non-negotiable precept of the Fifth Commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Murder.” "

What is basically is saying above is that there is no freedom of conscience in this case. You have a choice to be a Catholic and follow their rules how THEY tell them to you or you choose to leave the church or be kicked out.

[Coastie for Truth]

4. Speaking as the Grandson of Two Rabbis

...we would welcome them into our chavera for a minyan and give them an aliyah to read Torah.

IMHO these de Fide people also approved of the kidnapping and child molestation of Edgardo Motardo.

[murray hill farm]

29. You are so right!

The Catholic church better be careful here...as an excatholic, myself...it is difficult to leave the church..the catholic church, anyway..ha! So, if this were to happen..well...a whole lotta catholics who might want a more agreeable religion, but just cannot bring themselves to leave catholicism, will then have their reason to do so. It will go like this..the rationale..."i would never have left the church..i would never have rejected my faith...but now it has rejected me...soooooooooo...off i go to check out some more humane and universal religion". And, they are picking on very wealthy catholics...so...lots and lots of money lost to the church.

[Southsideirish]

5. "Let he who is without sin..." This group is a real embarrassment

to all sane Catholics.

[jamesinca]

6. The right to murder

Are they going to address capital punishment? Are they going to address scandalous poverty? Are they going to address war?

"inviting Christians and non-Christians alike to join in the class-action ecclesiastical lawsuit against all of the above-named parties."

Does this mean he is going to actually push the Catholic faith on everybody since he is allowing everybody to be a part of the lawsuit? My question is when will they apply the laws of the Bible to everybody, not just certain politicians for a politically motivated reason. A case similar to this was filed during the primaries and rejected by the Vatican. I think this will be also rejected.

[CatholicEdHead]

7. The group addresses that in FAQ

here in a .doc Word file.

http://www.defide.com/anotherdir/defidefaqv9.doc

Really sneaky language.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

67. Bush is not a Presbyterian. He is a methodist

I agree with you about the death penalty. It is wrong no matter how postive we are that the person is guilty.

[benburch]

8. Time for a schism

Seriously, why don't you American Catholics take a page from King Henry The Eighth's book and ditch Rome?

[CatholicEdHead]

12. Some actually have

I am not a member of it, but US Roman Catholic Church members are about 50/50, mostly due to the abortion issue. Without that they would be voting for Democrats on social issues more often.


http://www.liberalcatholic.org/about/faq.asp

This is a link to the schism "Liberal Catholic Church" that is what I am talking about.

[Clark2008]

16. Most of us do, although not formally

Most American Catholics really don't give two hoots about what goes on in Rome.
I, personally, couldn't see myself queuing for hours to kiss the ring of a dying man - but, hey, that's just me.

[Blue Gardener]

9. Are condom-wearers next?

After all, the pope just came out with a statement against use of condoms.

[Senator Lamb]

11. I got some names for them to add

Guiliani, Arnold, Ridge, not to mention any person who is for capital punishment or the Iraq War, both condemned by the Pope.

[Clark2008]

17. You are absolutely correct

The Pope considers all life sacred. He may be anti-choice, but he's also anti-war and anti-death penalty.

This is why we have the separation of church and state. It's not fathomable for policy leaders to always avoid death. It's simply not.

[LiberalFighter]

19. Why aren't they included in the list?

[Skidmore]

26. Don't forget Newtie and

O'Reilly and Bill Bennett. who are some of these other ranting hypocrites?

[CBHagman]

54. I don't think Gingrich is a Catholic.

Though he did do the nasty with a choirgirl. I understand she wasn't Catholic either, though.

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. That would wipe out about 85% of "good" Catholics....I mean, as long

as they confess to it on Saturday, right? :shrug:

[ticapnews]

56. You can commit any sin in the Catholic Church and get forgiven...

Kill a bunch of people, go to confession, tell the priest your sins, then sneeze. When the priest says "God bless you" consider yourself absolved :)

[JVS]

38. I think that the Catholic church is afraid to excommunicate lapsed members

If they were to excommunicate Catholics who publicly proclaim positions that conflict with church teachings they would really just be demonstrating the impotence of the church.

In 1077 Emperor Heinrich IV was excommunicated and spent days begging for mercy at Canossa.

If they pull that these days I wouldn't be surprised if the excommunicates by and large ignored it

[Jack Rabbit]

10. This is really cruel

I am not a Roman Catholic, but I feel for those who are and try to strike a balance between what they feel is the teaching of the Church and what is good public policy.

Apparently, it is not enough for some that these people choose to separate Church and state and believe that if one does not believe in abortion, then one should not get one. It would be as wrong for the Church to dictate that in order to be a good Catholic one must support outlawing abortion as it would be for radical feminists to dictate that in order to be a truly liberated woman one must get an abortion.

I cannot tell any individual Roman Catholic what to do if the Church rules (as I doubt they will) that one must actively attempt to outlaw abortion or risk excommunication. However, it seems reasonable to believe that such a ruling or anything like it will create an awful lot of lapsed Catholics.

[Nothing Without Hope]

13. Yes, the cherry-picking is a tell of their true motivations

There are a lot of Catholics who support the Repubs and have NOT come out as anti-Choice. Mysteriously, they have not been targetted by this group. Off the top of my head I can't recall the list of some of the names in this category that I have seen. Isn't Rudy Giuliani pro-Choice? How about Arnold Swarzenegger? Is he Catholic? Let's list the Catholic Repubs who are pro-CHoice and are not being threatened with excommunication. That's the clearest evidence that the goal of this travesty is political reprisal and suppression. This is NOT about the abortion issue, it is political persecution. The Catholic Church sullies its own integrity if it supports this charade. Either oppose ALL proponents of Choice regardless of political affiliation, or go stew in your own hypocrisy.

Yes, let's gather a list of well-known Repubs and Repub supporters who are Catholic and pro-Choice. The hypocrisy and hatred of these people is sickening, as is the way they are trying to hide their true intentions behind pretensions of piety.

Edited to add: While they are so excited about "preserving human lives," how about their stance on the illegal butchery in Iraq? (Let alone all the other places through history.) Not a peep, I'd bet. They support Bush the murderer. They only talk about preserving human life at the embryonic or early fetal stage, not when it is walking on the earth. Especially if it has espoused a different religion. Hypocritical bastards!

[blondeatlast]

59. I don't this group's stance, but the Vatican/Pope was

fiercely and quite vocally opposed to the invasion.

This is DU, we paint with a fine brush here.

[Nothing Without Hope]

61. Yes, you are right. The Pope has been strongly opposed to the war

I didn't mean to aim the anger I feel about this splinter group's push for Kerry's excommunication at the Church as a whole, and if my post gave that impression it was wrongly worded. I would hope that the Vatican would not support this group, and I have not not heard anything that would suggest they want Kerry's excommunication.

I believe that the people who are doing this are not acting from their stated religious reasons but from partisan political motives. I heard that at least one US bishop (don't recall his name) had expressed support for excluding Kerry from communion, but I have never heard of the Pope arguing for such a thing. This seems to be something from extreme-minded individuals, not from the Church leadership.

One of my concerns here is that this group is pretending to act on behalf of the Church, and unless the Church disavows their claims and goals, there may come to be a blurring of the lines. It may be that the Vatican considers the groups efforts doomed to failure and doesn't want to draw more attention to them. We'll see.

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. Hey, can I get excommunicated too?

I'm not Catholic, and never was, but as long as they're handing out excommunications.....

BTW, if I remember correctly, old Pope JP was against Junior's invasion of Iraq and has even implied that Junior was the Antichrist. So as long as they are passing out excommunications, I expect any Catholic remotely connected to the Bush Fraudministration, PNAC, or their supporting mediawhores to step up and get kicked out.

Sean Hannity, Bill Bennett, I'm talking to you. Santorum, get your man on dog loving ass in there.....

[LiberalFighter]

20. Why do "Christians" like gw* consider the pope to be the anti-christ?

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. I think you read that backwards

I said the Pope thinks Junior is the Antichrist. As for what the Freeptards who believe Junior is a Christian think,(or even IF they think) not even God Himself has an explanation for that one.

[LiberalFighter]

32. But many of the fundies consider the pope to be the anti-christ

[AntiCoup2K4]

36. Seems like they want to pawn the Antichrist off on ANYONE else....

....The world empire of the Antichrist is said to be a resurrected Roman Empire, at least in terms of the world status. Some take that as a literal meaning that the Antichrist must come from the physical land which the Roman Empire occupied, which is where the theory that the Antichrist will come from the European Union comes from. Others take an even narrower view of that, and say that the Antichrist would have to come from Rome itself. Since Italy doesn't carry all that much worldwide political clout these days, that would leave the Pope as the most powerful force in Rome. Even though the Vatican is legally it's own city and country, which means he's not technically in Rome at all.

Realistically though, there is only one man on this planet right now who is positioned to do all the things the Antichrist is prophecized to do, from war in the Middle East to control of the world economy, and that man is George W. Bush Jr. :scared:

[many a good man]

81. Pope is the whore of Babylon

Fundies are convinced based on some quote in the Bible that he is the whore of Babylon, not the anti-Christ. Only the uneducated fundies call him anti-Christ...

[ClassWarrior]

21. ANOTHER RADICAL RIGHTWING POWER GRAB!!

Fire up your Lakoff, folks... It's FRAMING time!!!

NGU.

[Uncle Toby]

23. I e-mailed de fide a couple weeks ago

Asked that Gonzales be included in the suit, citing the papal encyclicals and declaration of the Second Vatican Council that addressed torture as basically on par with abortion. (I also asked whether there was something in Canon Law that makes its reach inapplicable to Republicans.)

Got a very indignant response.

[alcuno]

47. Me too, Uncle Toby. I got an irrational response so I emailed again

saying that I would pray that God would enter his heart and turn him from his hateful and divisive conduct. Never heard back after that.

[antigone382]

48. lol, excellent.

Welcome to DU, Uncle Toby! :hi:

[blm]

24. Where are Giuliani, Pataki, and Schwarzenegger? This is a GOP operation.

They're just throwing Collins in there because she's expendable to BushInc. and they THINK it will help cover for them.

[JVS]

35. Yeah, I'd like to see GOPers on that list too

[robbedvoter]

44. You don't as this is an unabashed political act.

[SharonRB]

27. This is a bunch of Bushit

Are they going to sue every Catholic who believes in a woman's right to choose? Being Jewish, I don't know a lot about how the Catholic Church works, but what gives them the right to sue anyone over this?

[robbedvoter]

31. Religion - always the help of dictators. That's why Hillary was both

dumb and offensive going for the "faith thingy". This stuff is going to only become shriller.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

34. If you want to be part of the RCC, you gotta play by their rules.

"Under Roman Catholic Church law, support of abortion rights constitutes the "Right-to-Murder" Heresy condemned by Pope John Paul II in the Encyclical Evangelium Vitae of 1995. Automatic Excommunication is the penalty incurred for this offense."

This gives me a question. When they say "Automatic excommunication" do they mean that one should consider him/herself excommunicated (thus sparing the clergy the unpleasantry of announcing it) or does that mean that actions will be taken by the church to excommunicate the person in question?

[robbedvoter]

37. Which only apply for Democrats - proeminent in politics

[JVS]

39. Unequal application of the rules is crappy, I'll grant you

But saying "But he did it too" is not really an excuse.

The point is this: Catholics submit to the authority of their church, and if the church decides "you can't do A and retain membership in the church" then it has the authority to kick those who refuse to obey out.

[robbedvoter]

42. Thanks for the grant. Now, about pedofilia....

Please don't defend this purely fascistic gesture. They are following the tradition in legitimizing Hitler to the masses.
It's blatantly political, and as such, inexcusable. Aren't they tax exempt because they are supposed to keep their nose out of politics?

[JVS]

45. The only thing I defend is the right of churches to enforce discipline...

on their members.

As far as pedophilia goes, those who participated in those crimes and the coverups should be vigorously prosecuted.

Yes it definitely appears that the group who is appealing for the excommunications is politically motivated they should have made a more complete list which includes pro-choice republicans.

One question for you, why shouldn't a church be able to decide that those who advocate law that is contrary to the church's teachings no longer are welcome members of the church?

[LittleClarkie]

46. Okay, but at the moment this isn't even the church

If the Boston Archdiocese was making more noise, and having the press conference about excommunicating various people, then I'd say the church has the right to do what it wants.

But the church also has the right not to listen to groups like this too. So I wonder how the church is responding.

According to the Boston Globe, aides have said that the thought of not being able to take communion in the church was personally devatating to Kerry. I can only imagine what being excommunicated would be like for him.

As I said, if the church were pushing this, it would be one thing. But a Catholic group with a political agenda is another kettle of fish entirely. I hope that the Church itself gives this the attention it deserves, which is next to none if they're not going for Repubs as well as Dems or any other famous folk who say they are both Catholic and pro-choice.

[JVS]

69. True, but a case is being made before the church

and I think that the case might have a point. If Kerry follows Catholic teachings on abortion, then his current public stand, where he says that he is personally opposed to abortion but does not wish to impose his view on others, is untenable. It would be the same as saying that he is personally opposed to murder, but doesn't want to enforce a law against murder. It doesn't stand up to examination and is especially ironic given that Kerry quoted James during the election by saying faith without works is dead. I would say that faith that abortion is wrong and a lack of works in consequence of his beliefs would accurately describe his record on abortion.

It is true that those who present this case seem to be turning a blind eye towards republicans, but hopefully the church would see to it that the rules be applied to all regardless of political affiliation. Still, the bias of the suit is not a valid defense of Kerry. It is no more valid than a car theif complaining that many other car theives have not been put on trial because they have not been caught. If you are upset that pro-choice Republicans are not being brought before the authorities for examination, then I suggest that you do something about it, and I wish you all the best in that. Seeing Giuliani get booted would make me laugh my ass off.

If Kerry has strength in his convictions he should not be bothered by the threat of excommunication. Eventually pro-choice Catholics need to accept the fact that their church is strongly opposed to their views on abortion.

[LittleClarkie]

72. I see what you're saying, but in not imposing his beliefs on others

he is saying, in other words, that he represents more than just himself as Senator from Massachusetts. He reflects the wishes of his constituents also.

Ironic that Massachusetts has the lowest rate of abortions in the nation. Truly legal, safe and rare.

But I understand what you mean about perhaps it still not flying with the Vatican.

[karynnj]

77. May depend on the meaning of believe

Believing that life starts at conception is not equal to knowing that life starts at conception. This does give a little space to allow what is a contorted position.

As someone who believes that potential life exists from conception and did not use amniocentesis when I was pregnant at 40 with my third child because I knew I would not choose to have an abortion, I am also pro-choice.(So I guess my position is similar to Kerry's - though as a Catholic who converted to Judaism I can't be excommunicated for abortion believes!) I do see abortion as very different from murder. For the fetus to survive till birth, the woman is required to be a support system to the fetus for 9 months. There seems (at least in the first few months) to be some trade off of rights.

It may also be that as a lawyer / prosecutor Kerry realizes that the real choice is not legal abortion vs no abortion, but legal abortion vs illegal abortion. The death and injury rate was much higher before abortion was legal. Also, the courts would then be forced to prosecute desperate woman and doctors. For some doctors, the motive might be as altruistic as to prevent butchers from performing this work.

Although the church certainly has the right to define core principles that must be followed, the sad truth is that the punishment will hurt only those politicians who really love their church. (Those who care less could convert to various Protestant churches to avoid the issue. )

It might be that Constitutional law and Catholicism, both of which seem to be important to Kerry, do not intersect neatly on the issue of abortion.

[trogdor]

63. That's not the point.

The point is, De Fide is more a partisan organization than a religious one. You can't excom Kerry without doing the same for someone like Guiliani.

[JVS]

70. The church can do whatever it wants, as it always has and will keep doing

But if it does the right thing it will excommunicate both

[robbedvoter]

74. Or else, pay the damn taxes.

[TheDonkey]

41. It'll backfire on them. I'm not sorry to see them do this

truly show how pathetic and disgusting these repukes can be.

[robbedvoter]

43. Salivating for your tax $ - so far only fundies got it.

I dunno what backfire you envision, but some cash will exchange hands.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. If I'm not mistaken, Fat Tony Scalia is a member of this wacko group

[blm]

53. Scalia is Opus Dei. Is he part of this group, too?

This seems more like a front group covering up a GOP operation, to me. I think they'd be careful not to put any too familiar GOP names on the roster.

[Bridget Burke]

55. Nope. Opus Dei has some scary elements....

But it also has a real spiritual background.

De Fide is apparently a Republican front group founded to get Catholic pro-Choice politicians excommunicated. Their site has no reference to any other Catholic policies--many of which are ignored by Republican politicians.

This movement is NOT coming from the Vatican.

[Stinky The Clown]

75. You're right and I'm wrong

It was Opus Dei. My bad.

[Skidmore]

58. So did this happen?

or not?

[CatholicEdHead]

73. Press conference did happen

The good news so far is that so far I can find NO MENTION of this press conference anywhere on the web. Maybe tomorrow there will be links about it. I have checked Google and many Catholic news sites (both moderate and right wing) and found nothing.

I will continue to look and expect WorldNutDaily and many hyper-prolife sites to carry something. They carried news before the press conference.

To me it is a good thing there are no newsflashes even late in the day on this, as it shows how marginalized the movement is in the overall Catholic heirarchy. That's not to say these cases may go through on Canon Law (which does not listen to the people of the church).

[Pawel K]

60. As a Catholic...

I am extremely ashemed of these people. This is nothing more than politics a play and it is an out right insult to every Catholic on this planet. As been pointed out, by their idiotic reasoning every single one of us isn't allowed to be a catholic. Isn't wearing a condom a form of abortion?

[trogdor]

64. Actually...

...lingering in the aisle where condoms are sold thinking about buying some is a form of abortion, according to some of these people.

[hholli1]

62. What about Pataki? Schwarzenager (sp)? Guiliani?

I think we should collectively call Republican pro-choice elected officals and ask them if they went to church yesterday. If so, did they recieve the sacrament?

Did they repent?

As a lifelong Catholic, I find it offensive when other people break the first Commandment and place themselves in the position of judging others.

Heretics, every last one of them.

[DrGonzoLives]

65. Uh, lawsuits?

How does this work? What the hell legal grounds for damage do they have? Only the College of Bishops can excommunicate, to my knowledge.

I sincerely hope that normal Catholics, even pro-life ones, rise up against this horseshit.

[jswordy]

66. Yet another black eye for the Catholic Church

I gave up on it years ago, but my Dad still goes every Sunday.

A lifelong Democrat, he said he was disgusted by the words from the pulpit every Sunday. Every single Sunday for a couple months pre-election, the message to "vote for the candidate who supports our Catholic point of view" was hammered home at some point in the sermon, Dad said.

He said Bush was never named, cuz that would go too far.

Sigh.

[Cheswick2.0]

68. Tell your father that the Catholic Church doesn't have an exclusive

contract with Jesus. He can be found at all kinds of moderate and liberal protestant churches every sunday.

[maxsolomon]

71. PLEASE go forward with this, wack jobs.

PLEASE extend your excommunication efforts to everyone who doesn't meet your standards. By all means, include me as an Apostate.

Marginalize the Catholic Church & make it irrelevant.

[CatholicEdHead]

76. Part of media push to "out" pro-choice Catholic politicans

I found this and this Defiede press conference is part of a public "outing" of "pro-choice" Catholic politicans.

http://www.catholicsforfaithfulcitizenship.org/012105P.pdf

http://www.catholicsforfaithfulcitizenship.org/

[SaintDem]

89. Read Releases closer

Read this press release closer. It has nothing to do with De Fide. This is in response to the pro birth group America Life League outing the 72 Catholic Members of Congress who support abortion. This did some news yesterday on ABC News and CNN. This group listed here was countering the press release and they were mentioned as well.

[LittleClarkie]

78. De Fide misrepresents their contact with Vatican

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405749.htm

Vatican denies it responded to lawyer seeking Kerry's excommunication

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- An official at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said a California canon lawyer seeking a formal decree of heresy against Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts, Democratic presidential nominee, has misrepresented his contact with the Vatican office.

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. (Marc) Balestrieri," said Dominican Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation.

"His claim that the private letter he received from (Dominican) Father Basil Cole is a Vatican response is completely without merit," Father DiNoia told Catholic News Service Oct. 19, declining to discuss the matter further.

Balestrieri is the head of De Fide, described on its Web site as an organization created "to deal with the burgeoning scandal of Catholic politicians supporting the 'right to choose' murder."

(more)

-----------

I love it. I love it.

Can you picture how the Catholics in Mass. would react if either Kennedy or Kerry got excommunicated? Hoo boy.

[CatholicEdHead]

79. Yes they did misrepresent it

From what I gather from their web site:
"On 14 June 2004 DE FIDE filed its first Libellus Litis (Bill of Complaint) in the Ecclesiastical Court of the Archdiocese of Boston. The Criminal Complaint alleges that United States Senator JOHN F. KERRY, as a baptized Catholic, has committed a court-martial offense under Canon Law by professing the Right-to-Murder heresy, commonly known as the "Right to Choose" doctrine.

The Complaint is currently under review by the Archdiocese of Boston. Once accepted, the arguments and evidence will be considered by a collegiate panel of three judges nominated to evaluate the merits of the case. When created, the Court will summon Defendant KERRY to trial for the presentation of any arguments the Defense may attempt to invoke."

From this it will be decided more on the ArchDiocese level than at the Vatican. So the ArchBishop of Boston has lots of say in what to do over this.

Like you said, he is probably considering the serious backlash from many Catholics (mostly in MA, but all over) if Kerry and/or Kennedy are excommunicated.

[AuntiBush]

82. Yeah, well that won't go over big with

the Catholics in my area of Maryland. My 87 yr. old neighbor, a little lady but sharp as a whip is a devoted Catholic, and she hate the Oaf and voted for Kerry, along w/her church!

Defining "HERESEY":
Well now, let's take a look at this word that's circulating around quite a bit out here; just for the ole' record. The oldest of scriptures (Greek, later Egyptian) meant "various branches of Judaism," like the "Pharisees," and the "Sadducees." (Act 5: 17).

You see, in the earliest biblical era Christianity was not in agreement with Judaism, so the word "Heresy" referred to those that were of non-Judaism faith; a separate sect of Judaism. (Act 24:5).

It wasn't till much later the bible (1CO 11:19) factored the meaning to fit the then newly Caholic (everyone/all nations) church; officials of their day describe these "factions" within their cities. Keep in mind that during this era historically Christians and Jews fought and powerful politicians conspired for financial and power control of the poor, working class people. These officials (Bishops, etc.) couldn't afford to have "heresy" among their workingclass towns people, so the Church leaders, working in conjunction with the political leaders had to promote this type of thing among the "little people." If they protested as Jesus did, they were "labeled" heresy-doers.

[BamaLefty]

83. Why Doesn't Kerry Convert to Judaism?

Afterall, that was his family's original religion. If I were him, I'd tell the Catholic Church to go Cheney themselves! :evilgrin:

[ProgressiveDepot.com]

84. Why Post This?

Why even give attention to this stupidity?

[LittleClarkie]

85. For the same reason it wasn't a good idea to ignore the Smear Vets

Ignoring something doesn't necessarily make it go away. These guys don't seem to have Repub backing at the moment, or they'd be making a bigger splash. But they could easily get it if the Repubs decide that such a tactic would be damaging to Kennedy and Kerry.

[CatholicEdHead]

86. Worse, it would be damaging to

any Catholic politician or even more than that any pro-choice Catholic, or for that matter any Catholic who thinks minimizing abortions in a different way other than overturning Roe vs Wade.

Don't think Rove et al are below this because their tacitics can easily go for the jugular. The social justice Catholics are one large voting block the would want to minimize. Exploiting this with their usual tactics would be one way.

[ProgressiveDepot.com]

87. The Election Is Over, No One is Paying Attention to This n/t

[LittleClarkie]

88. If it suited their purpose, it could easily be exploited

Like if Kennedy or Kerry or any other Catholic Dem got to uppity in their opposition to the Bush Co.

We saw that with the Smear vets. May = no attention. August = all the freakin' attention in the world. Like somebody flipped a switch.

They could make a stink in a non-election year if it suited their purposes, I'm sure.

[OnionPatch]

90. This is just so disgusting

and it reminds me of the Salem witch trials or some such garbage.

If I were a Democrat, I'd tell the Catholic church to bite me and take their ignorant ideas and childish manipulations back to the dark ages.

Why isn't the Methodist Church kicking GW out? The lying war-monger.

[RogueTrooper]

91. Who is behind this group

and what are their secrets?

[SillyGoose]

92. I'm a catholic, went to catholic school for 12 years

and have a cousin who is a priest, but I'll tell you, if these people go forward with this horsesh*t, I'll have nothing to do with the Catholic Church ever again.

I was pretty hacked off when I found out how the Church was handling priests who were molesting kids. Wholly inadequate response by the hierarchy. That was my first disagreement with them.

This stunt is nothing more than a witch hunt to cherry pick certain politicians to destroy. Its partisan nonsense. They need to lose their tax exempt status pronto if they do this.

:grr:

[John_H]

93. Dealing with priests is the same as dealing with politicians

They'll continue this bullshit as long as they think it will help their finances, their PR operations, and their membership. If, and only if, enough catholic dems send letters explaining why they've stopped donating to the local parish or, if this shit continues, letters of self-excommunication will this crap stop.

[CatholicEdHead]

94. Kick Update on Press Conference

This is the only "news service" that covered the news conference. The far right "MichNews.com".
http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_6572.shtml

Key except:
"But, Balestrieri's case is languishing in the Archdiocese of Boston while abortion continues apace and nominally Catholic politicians across the country like Senator Kerry continue to pose as faithful Catholics, confusing some of the faithful, inducing accommodating clergy to violate church law and generally undermining the Faith."

Read about the rest of the conference at the link.

[EVDebs]

95. Use a rubber, go to prison. Is being "Pro Choice" really being

"Anti Birth Control" ? I think it must be to them.