Hillary is already running for President.. Dems should follow her lead

[Quixote1818]

All this stuff about finding common ground on Abortion is Vintage Bill Clinton. Now I am 100% behind Clark so don't get me wrong but this was a brilliant move on her part. You should see all the positive posts about her on an AOL board and they strike me as middle of the road people not necessarily Democrats. Let me tell you, their are never this many positive posts about a Democrat on AOL.

She will always be a polarizing figure, however so is Bush but he still managed to get elected. She is only polarizing to about 35% of the electorate which leaves 65% open to what she has to say. This kind of stuff will get her more than enough votes in the middle to do very well. Does that mean I am for Hillary? NO. I prefer Clark by 100 times.

Now I know a lot of people on DU want us to pull way over to the far left but I will flat out tell you that is political suicide! Hillary is positioning herself to do very well in a National Election and the other candidates better take note. Does that mean we abandon our core values? NO! It means reaching out to the center on divisive issues (mostly in a symbolic way not with policy) yet at the same time sticking up for the things we care about most. It's a balancing act but it has to be done!

Now we may not agree with the Right but that does not mean we cant RESPECT their opinions on things like abortion. I am Pro Choice ALL the way but I do understand how things like abortion can be very important to those on the right the middle and YES even on the left! Many people really believe it's wrong. Currently the Democratic Party is viewed as having a litmus test on Abortion and if you are Pro Life then you are not aloud in our tent. This is flat out stupid politics. We are not putting Abortion at risk here we are only reaching out and saying we understand your moral dilemma and you are absolutely welcome within the Democratic Party EVEN if we have no intention to end Row vs Wade. Many don't care if it's overturned they just want to feel like they are understood. Clinton was a MASTER of this! "I feel your pain". He always started a rebuttal by saying "I understand what you are saying but....."

If we start showing respect to those who think differently than we do BECAUSE that is what being American is all about "celebrating differences of opinion" I guarantee you we will win. Then we can do things like fight corporate power and level the playing field for all Americans because those kinds of things are widely accepted across party lines. I just fear that many Democrats still don't get it. Well, we better wake up.

[OneBlueSky]

1. if Hillary runs, the attacks on her will be so vociferous . . .

that she'll have to spend the entire campaign defending herself . . . whatever message she and the Democrats try to promote will have zero chance of getting through . . .

[Quixote1818]

3. Maybe true but she is still making smart moves right now. Other dems

should do the same things. This post is not to help Hillary win it's to help people take notice of how politicaly brilliant she is.

[sendero]

34. I couldn't disagree more...

... leaving aside the chances of Hillary ever being president in ANY CONTEXT NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES, by 2008 the American people are not going to be happy with the Bush** administration.

Reaching out to their policies is not going to be a good thing, it is going to be a bad thing. By then, Americans in the middle are going to be looking for a real alternative.

The more triangulation Hillary does the less of a real alternative she is.

[DaveinMD]

45. safe, legal and rare

is how Democrats should always talk about abortion. Women should always have the choice and it must always remain safe. But we should always be striving to reduce unwanted pregnancies. This is where the country is and if we talk about it this way we win on this issue.

[DemBones DemBones]

9. What Dem won't be attacked by the hard right? nt

[Quixote1818]

13. True, they won't hold anything back on anyone. They will do anything to

win no matter who they are up against.

[housewolf]

30. This will be true of everyone who run

The repubs have proven that they are not above fabricating scandals, it's their standard procedure. If they don't have something real, they'll make it up.

[cidliz2004]

49. The one thing that I have to say about Hillary though....

Is that she is not afraid to speak her mind and even raise her voice. Her communication style is easier for the American people to relate to than was Kerrys.

[Kahuna]

80. Hillary knows how to fight back though. Lots of practice.

nt

[rawtribe]

2. It's not that easy being green;

It's not that easy being green;
Having to spend each day the color of the leaves.
When I think it could be nicer being red, or yellow or gold...
or something much more colorful like that.

It's not easy being green.
It seems you blend in with so many other ord'nary things.
And people tend to pass you over 'cause you're
not standing out like flashy sparkles in the water
or stars in the sky.

But green's the color of Spring.
And green can be cool and friendly-like.
And green can be big like an ocean, or important like a mountain,
or tall like a tree.

When green is all there is to be
It could make you wonder why, but why wonder why?
Wonder, I am green and it'll do fine, it's beautiful!
And I think it's what I want to be.

[Clarkie1]

4. Fantastic post n/t

[LittleClarkie]

5. But some of us bitched at Kerry when it appeared that he might already

be running too.

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Because some of us didn't like the way he ended his 2004 campaign.

I still can't believe he did that and apparently didn't realize how many of his former supporters are now disillusioned with him.

[itzamirakul]

6. I might be willing to "reach out" to the right when

I see that THEY are willing to "reach out" to the left.

In the meantime, for the past 40 years they have planned and plotted backstage to infiltrate the Democratic Party and they have succeeded.

Merely to say, "I understand your pain..." while thinking that we can "get away with" holding fast to our values is wishful thinking. Once we begin to make concessions, we will weaken our positions on EVERYTHING. If the righwing feels so strongly about THEIR positions that they are unwilling to change, our concessions will again put us into the Republican-lite camp.

There was a time when I would have been willing to ener a bear's den to support Bill and Hillary. With the enlightenment we have had since Bill left office, I feel that my trust was sorely misused.

i would rather hold fast to my own liberal values which tend strongly to the left than to give one inch anymore.

[Quixote1818]

12. You don't study history do you?

[itzamirakul]

18. Let's not get nasty with each other...OK?

You expressed your opinion and I expressed mine. I see no reason for you to make assertions as to what I may or may not have studied. I will put my education and experience up against yours anytime...anyplace....But in actuality, I have nothing to prove to you.

Your nasty comment merely shows that you are unwilling to listen to any other opinion than your own.

[Quixote1818]

44. Fair enough but with your kind of reasoning we are left with a situation

similar to the Palestinians and the Muslims. Each side waiting for the other to reach out. Well that gets no results and leaves each side further and further alienated from the other. Not to mention we are not even reaching out to the far right here we are reaching out to many liberals and independents who agree with us on most issues but may differ on something like abortion.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. It's not reaching out to the hard-core right, it's

reaching out to all the people who might vote Democratic if the Dems weren't perceived as people who think it's simply delightful that so many women have abortions every year. Reasonable people agree with what Bill Clinton said about making abortion safe, legal, and RARE. Unfortunately, the Dems have not set up any plan to make abortion RARE. There are two ways to reduce abortion. One is through restrictions and outright bans, and that's what the right wants.

The other is through more education and better availability of contraceptives to lower the number of unintended pregnancies, and through programs to assist women who are pregnant and facing social and economic pressures to abort, women who might choose to give birth if they knew someone would help them with the costs of delivery and the costs for raising the child, help them get out of a difficult situation without having to abort to do so. This is the approach the left should take.

The left deplores the killings in war zones, deplores the killings in execution chambers, why doesn't the left feel concern about the killings in abortion clinics?

If we would start working on a plan to decrease abortions by decreasing the need for them, we might be able to head off the right's rush to get a total ban.

[itzamirakul]

16. So, now after you sell out on abortion rights

what is the next liberal core value you will compromise on...Civil rights? a return to segregation?

[Quixote1818]

43. Sell out???? What thread are you on because no one said anything

about selling out on our core issues. The point is showing "respect" for people who think differently than us." You sound like the equivalent of the religious right only on the left.

[saracat]

65. I don't have any "respect" for people who think I have less

rights than a fetus. Why should I respect those who devalue me?

[mazzarro]

21. You are absolutely right!

The "compromise brigade" AKA DLC'er's are already linning up their prospective candidates for the '08 run - hmmmmmm! Just like you, I will not give an inch of my principled "librul" values - come what may!

[zulchzulu]

7. What makes you think Clark is a strong candidate?

Hey, I've met the man.

I like him as a person.

But frankly, I'm a bit perplexed at how he's a good candidate...if you base it on his 2004 run, there isn't much to point to as a success...maybe you have gleaned something I need to know about him...not asking for a flame fest, just some solid answers.

As for Hillary...um....do we really need to lose again just to appease the Clinton lovers in the party?

[Quixote1818]

10. Clark would do well for these reasons:

1. He did better than any Democrat in Rural Areas.
2. He is a National Security Expert in a time NS is a huge issue.
3. He is very charismatic and good looking.
4. He was first in his class at west point
5. He is blowing everyone away in all the recent Democratic polls
6. He spoke out against the war before it started.
7. He taught Economics at West Point
8. As the Supreme Allied Commander he over saw thousands of people, including schools, infrastructure etc. Much like being a Governor.
9. As a war hero and a general he is hard to attack or to label as a weak liberal.
10. Unlike John Kerry he didn't protest the Vietnam war which will make him harder to attack.
11. He is from a southern state
12. He did VERY well with conservative democrats.
13. He gets us the veteran vote
14. He was one of the few candidates talking about values (him and Edwards)
15. He is proud of being a liberal
16. He has a 100 year plan for our country.
17. He was endorsed by hundreds of World Diplomats
18. He proposed having the most open government ever
19. A lot of Republicans can stomach him

I think a lot of democrats were not sure what to think of Clark at first but now he has proven himself as a real democrat. He will be an Old Friend in 2008.

I would say his best selling point would be his strong showing in Rural areas where Democrats usually struggle. Any Democrat who can win in Oklahoma can win any place.

[justiceischeap]

35. Quick question

Wasn't Clark a registered Republican until the Iraq war and before the Clinton's urged him to run on the Dem ticket?

[Quixote1818]

42. No, that was a myth started by Howard Dean

Clark voted for Clinton and Gore however earlier in his career he voted for Nixon and Reagan but hey, people can change. Reagan was a Democrat early on but no one seemed to question if he was a Republican when he ran for president.

[FrenchieCat]

14. Since it's late....here are a few varying threads that if all are read...

will provide you with information about Wes Clark...and why he would be a superior powerful candidate.

Also remember that he was the only candidate to win a primary state that wasn't his home state and he performed strongly in the southwest during mini tuesday ......doing all of this while on media ignore (an unexpected feat...as the pundits had written him off and he received absolute no free publicity a la Kerry, Edwards and Dean)...after having been smeared due to his support of Michael Moore's comments at the NH debate which took place a couple of days prior to the vote....

Each thread's date varies...and the topic are Clark, but under various circumstances....with enough detractor in each to give some "balance".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1517151

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=93282

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1412673

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x451733#452870

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=310182

[robbedvoter]

41. Frankly, I am perplexed at you attacking Clark....in a Hillary thread

Some personal unresolved issues? Ignorance of the DU rules on hijacking threads? :shrug:

[zulchzulu]

63. Meds are good for you

I wasn't "attacking" Clark...

Perhaps you need to go here.

[Rowdyboy]

8. If Hillary Clinton is nominated on the Democratic ticket, I will vote for

her, work for her, raise money for her and do everything possible to get her elected. That said, I really doubt that she can be elected in the America that exists today. Her feminism is anathema to Republicans, her continued marriage to Bill is anathema to feminists, and her work for children and gays makes her off-limits to conservatives.

I don't think Hillary intends to run for president. I think she wants to be a HUMONGOUS thorn in the side of the Republicans.

We shall see...

[DemBones DemBones]

17. You really think her continued marriage to Bill is

anathema to feminists? It's been Republicans I've heard say she only stays with him for political reasons, because she's "too ambitious" and it will help her fulfill her "unfeminine" ambitions, etc. (Ironic since you know that the same people just love Margaret Thatcher!) There are plenty of people who hate the Clintons, but as someone said above, there are plenty of people who hate the Bushes, too, father and son, so who knows? One thing's for sure, we've got to do something about the voting machines.

[Rowdyboy]

33. All I base this on is people I know personally, , but one of my closest

friends is a feminist college professor despises Hillary because she tolerated Bill's shit for all those years. She and I love each other, so we just don't discuss the Clintons.

[liberal43110]

19. Abortion is NOT Killing

In your post above, DemBones, you refer to abortion as "killing." Wrong. Please do not equate an abortion with the killing fields of war.

[Malva Zebrina]

32. If someone thinks that what goes on in clinics is "killing"

and compares that with a war, and the death penalty all I can say is wow. Next? Should not those who kill be arrested and prosecuted, put in jail with a life sentence? All the platitudes in the world will not remove this basic understanding that abortion is murder on the part of those calling themself "pro-life". All the straw men in the world, will not remove that notion from their narrow perspective that women who choose abortion are killers. Forcing pregnancies on women by counceling aimed at producing inordinate guilt in those women and then recommending if they cannot afford it, someone else help them out with raising the child is absolutely mind boggling.

This is intervention in another person's life by religious arrogance, be it by the state, or by those who would claim they own someone else's body and want to stop "killing" in clinics by pretending to have a solution to it all--forced pregnancies, equating a blob of cells with living human beings, and absence of and disregard for the life of women and their right to be the one and only person in charge of their body, their lives and their families.

This is also a hidden slur on Democrats--after all, they hate the war killings, they are against the death penalty and it only follows then, as Democrats, they should be against abortion too. The implication is that Democrats are inconsistent in their logic.:eyes: The truth is that it is the other way around and this person who believes that clinics provide a haven for "killers" demonstrates their own distorted,self righteous logic.

Killing indeed! I am amazed at how easily persons thoughtlessly condemn women, who are doing nothing wrong btw, who are well within their legal rights, and accuse them of being murderesses! Call the cops!

[msgadget]

20. Both sides need to show more respect for each other

but I don't see Hillary as a unifying figure. The wing of the other party that gets the attention loathes her. At the bookstore I saw at least two anti-Hillary books. In fact, they crow with delight every time a troll returns to the fold and reports on "Hillary for 2008" posts.

She can straddle the issues all she wants but it'll earn her disrespect from the left and snorts of derision from the right because she doesn't have that Bubba, "...I feel your pain.." charm.

[Quixote1818]

59. Even with what I said above in my original post I agree with your

assessment and that's part of why I am not for Hillary. Not to mention her backing Condi.

[xpat]

22. Hillary? Please!

That's all we need. Another DINO (Democrat in name only).

[slor]

23. I like the Boxer form of Democratic...

leadership better, thank you very much.

[Skidmore]

24. Me, too.

[UKCynic]

25. Rep GOTV wants Clinton

The 04 election was lost because the right finally learnt how to get out the vote. This is a skill that they are not going to unlearn. The problem with selecting Clinton as a candidate is that she is the dream candidate for any republican GOTV program. Unless the democrats can equal the right in organization and energy, Clinton would loose them the election.

[rodeodance]

27. the attachs on Hilary have started from the Right (as I am sure you know)

[UKCynic]

29. Didn't hear that they had ever stopped.

For some reason it is easier to demonise a woman. Look at Margaret Thatcher, she was really easy to hate (and apparently also easy for the right-wing to adore). Does a woman politician have a different impact, less intellectual and more visceral?

[IndianaGreen]

26. It is too early to start selling the Hillary Kool-Aid to the sheep

Starting a debate on abortion by conceding that abortion is murder to the Right-to-Life crowd is not the way to win an argument. Those people will never agree to family planning, sex education, or contraceptives being made available to teens. There is no common ground with them!

Hillary will fracture what is left of the Democratic Party, which is why you will hear the MSM bestow praises on her before they turn on her if she becomes the nominee.

[rodeodance]

28. nobody is "conceding that abortion is murder"

[IndianaGreen]

31. If one admits that life begins at conception, it would be hypocritical...

to not introduce legislation to protect that life. This is the trap in which the Hillary advocates will find themselves. If Hillary does not follow her "common ground" words with "common ground" actions, she will expose herself as a demagogue on a very serious issue to the right-to-lifers while alienating the pro-choice wing of the party.

[Quixote1818]

46. Many of the right to life crowd are Democrats and independents

You can't put them all in a nice little perfect box that is only made up of Religious Right Zealots. Many of them are wonderful people who agree with you on more issues than you think.

[CWebster]

36. How nice

In other words, if one actually opposes Bush policy, that would be "too far Left"....one must finesse Bush policy because the groundwork has been laid, rather than formulating an alternative message which requires some effort.

What are the priorities here? What is the point of winning? What is there to win?

Let me explain it to you, Mister. Would we allow those who are opposed to Civil Rights in our tent--just to win?

[Quixote1818]

54. What on earth are you talking about?

Did you even read the whole post? It's not like Hillary is gong to let them win, she is just saying their might be some common ground we could find on reducing the number of abortions like when Bill was in office. No one is talking about making abortion less accessible just "safe legal and RARE." It's about respecting the deep beliefs of others but NOT giving an inch on policy. Civil Rights and abortion are apples and oranges because you can still reduce the number of abortions by not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. You give people who are struggling financially the tools they feel they need to be able to support a child. Most people DON'T want to have an abortion but they see no other way to deal with the situation but as Hillary an Bill understood these people could be helped (if they wanted help)so they would not feel they needed an abortion. Why on earth is that so difficult for people to understand? Thats why abortions were down under Clinton but now they are up under Bush.

As far as formulating an alternative message we are already doing that all over the place but some issues like abortion are HUGE issues to a HUGE voting block and cannot be ignored. Hey, if you want to keep loosing fine but I want to win again and do it in a way that does not compromise my core beliefs. If you can't see the difference then we should just end this discussion here because I don't think I could have made it any more clear.

[CWebster]

61. It is not up for debate

because it is more of the same process of slowly eroding away, just chipping away at hardwon rights- by adopting subtle shifts in atitude. It is not negotiable.

And I don't care if it is RARE--that is a value judgement that taints the debate--like the way men try to represent it as the poor regretful women, who would've made a different decision based on financial considertions. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but who the hell are you draw these conclusions for others?


Like Civil Rights, the party made a decision at the expense of votes. I suppose you would argue that they made the wrong decision...If votes is all it is about, might as well adopt all Republican views since the Right worked very hard to spin everything in their favor, while the Clinton-Dems just triangulated on Republican thunder. Why, they would triangulate the entire party away if they thought it would benefit their own aims.

EVERY DAY there is growing evidence of Hillary's agenda, what will it take for you to see it?

[TeacherCreature]

66. And today we saw the latest--her vote for Condi...

Which is the last straw for me and should be for all Democrats,

Hillary has compelted her journey to pukeland, where thay will always hate her anyway.

Serves her right.

[Quixote1818]

68. I agree with you on her Condi vote. She is not my candidate but she

made a smart move reaching out to the pro life people.

[Quixote1818]

67. I don't think you understand at all what I am saying

First of all I never said I was for Hillary I only said she made a smart political move.

Second of all who said anything was up for debate on abortion???? I am serious, I really don't have a clue what you are talking about because everything you are saying has nothing to do with my post. My post was about showing respect NOT changing policy on abortion. You are making arguments that don't have a thing to do with anything I said.

Look, Bill Clinton said "Safe, legal and rare" when it came to Abortion Hillary is saying the same thing. Reaching out in the way that she wants to see fewer abortions but not invading anyones Civil Rights. If she did I would speak up and say she was wrong.

Here is part of what Hillary said. Now tell me where she said anything about Abortion Policy being up for debate:

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, a longtime supporter of abortion rights, said on Monday that "people of good faith" can "find common ground" in the abortion debate, the New York Times reported.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton told a group of abortion-rights supporters near Albany on Monday, "We should be able to agree that we want every child born in this country to be wanted, cherished and loved."

She indicated that both sides should be able to agree on preventing unwanted pregnancies, and she also called abortion "a sad, even tragic choice" for many women.

"She did so not by changing her political stands," the newspaper said, "but by underscoring her views in preventing unplanned pregnancies, promoting adoption, recognizing the influence of religion in abstinence and championing what she has long called 'teenage celibacy,'" the newspaper said.


Pro-life leaders quoted by the newspaper were skeptical of Sen. Clinton's remarks, given her past comments that she would "support individual freedom" and oppose "threats to individual rights."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. Kerry will beat her in the primaries

and if he doesn't then more power to her!

[Larkspur]

50. Ha ha ha ha ha

Even I don't think Kerry can defeat Hillary in the primaries.

do you have any more jokes?

[CWebster]

62. I do, if they both continue on their current paths. nt

[NewYorkerfromMass]

72. Excellent trajectory plotting CWebster!

Indeed, they already seem to have plotted entirely different paths to '08- and glad to have contributed to some people's mirth here.

[Walt Starr]

38. Nope, not gonna vote for Hillary no matter what

She's unacceptable.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

39. See, that's the problem- getting around the Dem base

which is why Kerry is doing much better in that regard in terms of re-emphasizing his liberal instincts.

[Walt Starr]

40. 2004 proved something to me

NEVER, NEVER, EVER LET ANYBODY TELL YOU A THIRD PARTY VOTE IS WASTED.

If neither the Democrat nor the Republican are acceptable in your opinion, the only choice is third party. It's no longer the lesser of two evils to me. From now on, I go for the lesser of three or more evils.

[ernstbass]

47. I don't buy it

[Larkspur]

48. I'm a moderate and I will NOT vote for Hillary if she is the Dem nominee

I will vote Green for the first time in my life.

Hillary is a war enabler and supports the extermination of the Palestinians by Israel's hands. No way will I support a war crimminal again.

[TeacherCreature]

51. I agree, Her embrace of Condo-liar was the last straw for me.

If Hill is the nominee, i will withold my vote from the party for the first time in my life.


The Dinos must pay for what they have done today.

[Quixote1818]

56. That I will agree with you on. Reaching out on Abortion I can accept but

embracing Condi pisses me off to no end.

[lojasmo]

58. Nor will I. EOM.

[rocktop15]

60. Good post

I agree with you 100%

I was really getting behind Kerry but after seeing him lose without putting up a fight, I have lost a lot of faith in the Democratic party. I like what Boxer and Kerry did in voting NO to the warmongering oreo, but, regardless I will, more than likely, vote third party come November 2008.

[cidliz2004]

52. Bush didn't worry about alienating some of his base

he spoke to a well defined group and he won! It is time for the Democrats to stand for something rather than be in charge of nothing.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

53. Hillary will never get my vote again! I swore it when she voted for war,

and she just justified my original feeling. She is as much as a traitor as ** is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. Hillary and Lieberman? Why not? They seem to agree on everything.

Pure DLC.

[lojasmo]

57. It isn't Hillary's lead to follow.

She's blowing in the wind of populist politics. Guess who she's parroting!

[saracat]

64. If Hillary runs, I would think about campaigning against her. Her vote

today proved she is NO Democrat. And vintage Clinton is nothing to be proud of. Especially in the aftermath of this election when ,unlike Jimmy Carter , who has true convictions, He praised Bush, said he won"fair and square " and said he "deserved " to celebrate. Clinton lost what little respect I had left for him. Legislatively, he did a lot of harm to this country. "Vintage Clinton" brought us NAFTA and welfare reform.I wouldn't even dignify this abortion proposal with a rebuttal. It is horrendous. And I certainly wouldn't listen to such an argument from someone who just praised and voted for Condi Rice!

[MadHound]

69. Oh boy, another "centerist" telling us how wonderful it will all be

If only we go right a little further, embrace corporatism a little closer, sell off just a little more of our souls.

Sorry, no deal. After watching the destruction Bill Clinton wrought, while he was supposedly a Democratic president I will not sit by and let his wife pull the same shit.

You weren't convinced by NAFTA, the '96 Telecom Act, welfare "reform", Hillary care, the IWR, the Patriot Act, the Ashcroft confirmation, the Rice confirmation, etc. etc. ad nauseum?
The Clintons are part of the problem, they have sold their souls out to the two party/same corporate master system of government, and quite frankly don't give a damn about their base.

Dear Bill was a master of the common touch, the back slapping bonne homme. The trouble is that all the while he was "feeling your pain" he neglected to tell you he was the one inflicting it. Another Clinton, with the another corporate agenda is not what this country needs. What this country needs is a true liberal in the White House. Sad to say, they're in short supply ever since most of the Democratic party sold their souls to big business.

[Quixote1818]

77. You missed the whole point of the post. It went right over your head.

No one said anything about the things you brought up. Don't put words in my mouth. Respond to what was actually posted.

[MadHound]

78. You're right, I'm not responding to the specifics in your post, my bad

What I am responding to is the reality of what a Hillary presidency would be, and quite frankly what the reality of a Clark presidency would be. This country is so far gone to the right that we cannot afford another centerist Democrat, we need somebody who is seriously left in order to A: Energize the traditional Democratic base, and B: To bring this country back from the brink of collapse. Neither Hillary, nor Clark can do these tasks, for both are to willing to compromise and both are simply corporate pawns, forced to dance the corporate dance.

If you wish to support either of these two, go for it. Just don't come crying back here when either one starts acting, and legislating, like a good Republican ala Bill Clinton.

[Quixote1818]

79. I actually agree to a point

I don't see Hillary doing the things you are talking about. However I think their is room to do both. Reach out to the right and at the same time fight with passion about ending corporate corruption and leveling the playing field. If you really look at Clark I think you will find he actually does have the courage to fight and defend liberalism like he has done before. Thats why he is so popular here on DU and wins all the polls here.

[Generator]

70. Hillary is currently showing herself to be a worthless appeaser

Who will never under any stretch of anybody's reality be President.

Next question?

AND far fucking left my ass.

Unlike many here-I was intially FOR the war in Iraq. But I able to tell the difference between basic wrong and right. I am able to see failure and endless war with nothing but lies as rationlizations. I see torture and call it torture. I see lies and call them lies. I see someone that calls herself a Democrat and fucking isn't one.

Fuck Hillary Clinton and her politcal future. She is worthless-she is an appeaser-and I'm not a far left anything.

And what has the worthless legacy of Bill Clinton-whom I only voted for once and that principaled vote for Ralph Nader in 1996 am I ever proud of today. What is his legacy? NAFTA? Eight years of Bush? What the fuck has Bill Clinton done for us? NOTHING? What has HE done to fight Bush and the radical takeover of this country by as Seymoour Hersch calls them a "cult."? NOTHING.

This is about the DEATH of this country. You are the one that needs to wake up.

[Bethany Rockafella]

71. If Hillary runs for president, I may have to leave the country for a while

because I don't think I could take the hateful attacks that will follow her. I know she could probably take it but when republicans attack....it can be deadly. I rather she start with the vice presidency.

[formernaderite]

73. do you actually believe red staters will buy this?

Please...the end effect is that she's softening the issues for the republicans. They'll easily point to these "moderate" stances as proof they're not out in right field.

[Quixote1818]

75. Yes, Bill Clinton won Georgia and Montana

You only need about 5% of Red staters to buy it. We are talking about mostly independents and moderate republicans.

[shadowknows69]

74. Even if....

she was the best choice (IMO she isn't) and we were assured of fair elections(which we can only hope) I still don't think there are enough progressive thinkers in this country to let a woman join the big boys club yet. I personally think the country would probably be better off in the hands of nearly any woman (our new SOS the dark queen of Satan excepted) but I just don't think most of "man"kind has evolved enough to let go of that macho ego thing and put their country in the hands of "the weaker sex". Just playing devil's advocate here, don't flame me!!!

[accipiter]

76. I agree - she will be popular among suburban voters

A lot of suburban women who voted for Bush this time cuz of fears of terror, etc...will vote for her over fears about Roe v. Wade and Social Security.

[GOPBasher]

81. I don't think she'd win. There are plenty of good potential candidates.

We have a good field from which to choose a candidate. Let's not go with a sure loser.

[98geoduck]

82. I'm pretty sick of republicans in the whitehouse.

Three decades of it is quite enough, No thank you Hillary.
How about, as Randi Rhodes put it, someone with Principle.

[mourningdove92]

83. I like Hillary and think she would make a great President.

If she runs, she has my vote, my campaigning, my donations and anything else I can do for her.

[Donna Zen]

84. Party Line

I listened to the same line from Sen. Reid on NPR. I believe that the idea about this promoting this "common ground" approach to abortion is the new line in the sand. I expect in the end what seems like a "smart" political move will end up as most of these 3rd way options--losing ground and losing the election.

Americans need to understand what Roe v Wade actually protects: personal privacy--that's all. Americans like personal privacy. Yes, we should be doing ALL we can to stop unwanted pregnancies and both sides can come together in that effort, but exactly what ground do we have to cede?

If Hillary is running, and all indications coming in first-person-not-reported-in-the-press accounts, indicate that she is expected to be the nom in '08, millions will be spent in rehabilitating her image before the first dollar goes to beating a republican. To middle America, Hillary is the icon for all that is wrong with the Democrats and moral values.

Understand this: I think Hillary is a moderate that will never threaten their values. It would not be the worst government I've lived under, although progressives will make no strides while the anti-Hillary bashing would continue.

I don't know exactly what tactics the republicans will use, but they have planted plenty of seeds of distrust over the years, and can take their picks.

She is not a great candidate, although she and those around her think she is. So fine. My only choice seems to be whether or not I should work and give to another DNC candidate that will lose. Note: there was a post here early about how the republicans will chose a weak candidate that will be unlikable. Oh please! My sister, a republican lawyer voted for Kerry--she will never ever vote for Hillary. So dream on.

[ScreamingMeemie]

85. If Hillary runs...I'm running...to a viable third party.

DLC elitists get my vote no longer.