Boston Globe - Ideology isn't enough ( Kucinich)

[maddezmom]

EILEEN MCNAMARA
Ideology isn't enough
By Eileen McNamara, Globe Columnist, 1/21/2004

BEDFORD, N.H. -- Fickle voters are not the only ones who sometimes choose a candidate for personal rather than ideological reasons. Consider Dennis J. Kucinich, the most vociferously liberal, antiwar candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination.

On Monday, when it was clear that the Ohio representative could not win enough votes to be viable in the Iowa caucuses, Kucinich asked his supporters to throw their votes behind North Carolina Senator John Edwards. It was a curious choice, given Edwards's votes in support of the congressional resolution authorizing President George W. Bush to invade Iraq and in favor of the Patriot Act of 2001, a measure Kucinich regularly denounces as an assault on fundamental civil liberties.

"The tie-breaker was `Who's my friend?' John Edwards is my friend," explained Kucinich, who yesterday was barnstorming through southern New Hampshire hours after garnering less than 2 percent of the votes cast by Iowa Democrats. "If I was waiting to pair up with someone who agrees with me, I would still be waiting."


~snip~

Maybe biography trumped ideology for Kucinich, the former mayor of Cleveland. As the son of a North Carolina textile mill worker and a postal clerk, Edwards had a childhood that more closely mirrors Kucinich's own working class roots than the privileged upbringing shared by Dean and Massachusetts Senator John F. Kerry. Kucinich reminded supporters again yesterday that he is the oldest of seven children, that his family moved 21 times before he was 17 years old, that his parents never owned a home, and that sometimes the family was forced by financial realities to live in their car.

~snip~

more: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/01/21/ideology_isnt_enough?mode=PF

[cryofan]

1. Feh! DK is probably just tainting progressive issues with his eccentricity

He aint helping get progressive values out into the public debate. By allowing reporters to cover his campaign events associated with New Age ideas or people, he has allowed them to taint progressive issues with a Kucinich-is-weird meme. Just get out, Dennis. You are probably doing more harm than good.

[Cuban_Liberal]

2. Hmmm...

I must say that that fundraiser with the Maharishi University folks is somewhat the Democratic equivalent of a Bob Jones University appearance by a Repub. Dennis is definitely working overtime at reinforcing the stereotype of an 'ultra-liberal Democrat', and it's not helping him at all.

I like MANY of his ideas, but they're getting getting lost in the crappy campaign he's running. He needs to fire whoever his campaign director is, and get someone in there who actually knows how to win over Democratic voters, IMO.

[youngred]

4. I'd take Dennis Kucinich's Weirdness

over Howard Dean's loose temper anyday thank you very much.

[Cuban_Liberal]

5. Don't buy the media hype.

I would think a Kucinich supporter would be the last person to buy a bunch of media hype, and that's just what the "Howard Dean's loose temper" thing is--- media hype. I'm sure he has a temper, since we all do, but the only times I've seen his temper show, he's had a very good reason for it to show.

Don't buy the hype. :)

[youngred]

6. I'm not buying any hype

Even his closest, and longest advisors will admit that he has a problem with his temper. I've seen him lose it on more than one occasion and have to visibly attempt to control himself. He HIMSELF even admits that he has a problem with his loose temper.

What was his "very good reason" to show it the other night? He was angry with his own failure in what should have been a cakewalk?

Not buying the hype, this is something I've been saying even when Dean was the Media's darling

[Cuban_Liberal]

7. He wasn't angry the other night.

As a police officer, I deal with angry people every day, and Howard Dean wasn't angry. He gave a fiery 'we're not down yet' speech to his loyal 'troops', is all. If you thought that was anger, then I respectfully suggest that you ARE buying the media hype. :)

[youngred]

8. yes you seem to have said that several times

I am a regular person, and I deal with angry people everyday. In fact I'd wager to say you don't own the monopoly on dealing with angry people everyday. It was to fire up supporters and was a shrewd move to steal the fire of the victory of Kerry and Edwards...but somewhere along the way there he lost control of himself, and if you watched the more subtle aspects of his actions (look at his nostrils, eyes, corners of his mouth), you will see what I'm talking about.

[Cuban_Liberal]

14. We just disagree.

I think he wasn't, and you think he was.

Peace. :)

[redqueen]

17. This is ridiculous

Dean himself admits he has a short fuse, just as youngred has told you, yet you still refuse to believe what the man himself admits. Unbelievable!

This is so silly because apparently there are people in the VT legislature with dozens of 'sorry about that' notes from Dean's staff, which they wrote after he lost it and barked at them for some stupid reason.

Ignore reality at your own peril.

[Cuban_Liberal]

18. It's not ridiculous, if you read what I actually SAID.

I said i have not seen Dr. Dean lose his temper during the campaign. Can you find a quote where I said otherwise?

[redqueen]

27. Here's what you said

"that's just what the "Howard Dean's loose temper" thing is--- media hype"

Wrong.

You can pick a statement from later and defend that one to someone who takes issue with it. I didn't. I was arguing the point I just quoted.

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. That doesn't refute anything.

Howard Dean has not 'lost it', i.e., shown evidence of a 'loose temper' in this campaign, IMO, and you've not provided any evidence to the contrary. Remind me again just why are we arguing this point...

:shrug:

[redqueen]

31. LOL

You added the 'in this campaign' qualifier later. He does have a hot head, and that's what you denied was true, and that's what I responded to.

But to refute your 'in this campaign' qualifier, remember this?

"SIT DOWN!"

[diamondsoul]

9. And nobody else in all of this is

"weird"?! Please!

At any rate this thread isn't about your personal problems with Dennis' campaign, it's about a report on the deal with Edwards.

Kucinich did what he needed to do to stay in the race and move up in the ranks. He accomplished both goals thanks, and I'd say he did so with a wise bit of strategy.

It's become clear to me that no matter what he does somebody will have a gripe with it. Except that those of us who actually want him to win are out here busting our asses to overcome this stereotyping regardless which way it seems to be going. You buy into it and keep it going. Yeah, real cnvincing support there.

[redqueen]

16. LOL

You're so funny. You keep acting like you think candidates can control what journalists write.

Hilarious! :D

By the way, IMO, he is helping to get progressive values into the debate. If you look at the campaign so far, it's very clear. But think whatever you want.

Go Kooch!

[WilliamPitt]

19. Eccentricity?

I spent three days with him in a van. Like, a foot away from him for about 70 hours. He is one of the most normal, smartest, sharpest, sweetest guys you could ever meet. So much for drawing conclusions on a person based on internet reading.

[cryofan]

21. Sorry, but the facts are open to debate: DK has publicized his...

....personal affiliations and associations, many of which are considered eccentric by most Americans. And he does control what the media writes about, at least to some degree.

If you let a reporter ride with you to a campaign function located at a New Age-type facility, where a yogi teaches yogic flying, then you have allowed the media to paint you as eccentric. It doesn't really matter what the truth really is. DK has allowed the media to paint him as eccentric. He has control of who rides in the van. Period. And it is not as if this is something new. They started doing this months ago.

And he let it happen again. He let it happen,

[diamondsoul]

23. Horse-shit.

It's called raising awareness that there are other philosophies out there. You can think they're whacky all you like, but that doesn't make the people who hold them less important in a democratic society.

Call me eccentric, call me outright bonkers if you want. I'd still rather have a guy who comprehends yogic flying better than he understands bombing the shit out of another sovreign nation in the White House any day of the week!

And what the f*ck are YOU doing to counter the stereotypes? Not a damned thing, sitting here giving them credence instead. WTG. Fabulous way to assist Kucinich.:eyes:

[redqueen]

30. You crack me up

Still going on about the van ride to the whatever it was, eh?

Can you dig another one up? Or is that all ya got? Cause that one's getting old already.

[goodhue]

32. you seem to have a lot of issues

with alternative spirituality
what's up with that?
i find it really annoying
you've been johnny one-note on this issue for several weeks now
and it really brings me down
nothing wrong with courting the yoga-set
and its a lot bigger and less eccentric than you seem to realize
for a DK "supporter" you sure slam DK a hell of a lot
either get on the bandwagon or get out of the way

i probably shouldn't post this but . . .

[redqueen]

34. "for a DK "supporter" you sure slam DK a hell of a lot"

I noticed that too. Odd, isn't it?

[MuseRider]

43. This is part of the DK phenomenon!

He is accepting of all people, no matter what your beliefs or how you deal with life. These are supporters as well and to ignore them would be to ignore his very own platforms. I would wager most people might raise an eyebrow and go "Hmmm" for a minute but most people do not really care how others express themselves. Thanks goodhue.

[Nadienne]

36. Should he be ashamed

and hide who he is? Or should he be open, fearless? Another reason to like him, in my book: he doesn't pander to the "normal" crowd.

[diamondsoul]

22. Thank you, Will!

That so needed to be said around here. I don't know if you caught my thread about Washington Journal the other day, but I was livid because it was the same assinine sort of behavior exhibited by the post you replied to.

I've come to conclude extremism in ANY form is a very, very bad thing. You just can't maintain it and function in the real world. Dennis Kucinich is rational, reasonable and intelligent. Pair that with compassion and genuine human kindness and da-YUM there's a man I want to lead the free world!

Kerry comes second for me because he's got 30 years of record to prove he is everything he claims to be. One vote I disagree with in 30 years is pretty feckin' impressive in my book!

[no name no slogan]

46. Are we done yet?

You profess to be a DK supporter, yet you keep playing the same "one-note" tune that he's acting too "New Age"-ey or "weird".

This is hardly an issue I'd expect to be raised by a person who practices cryogenics, which is definately not "mainstream" by any definition of the term.

Live and let live. It's DK's campaign to run as he sees fit. And the press will continue to report whatever the hell it wants.

And they're probably not even AWARE of the fact that many of those Edwards delegates in IA are actually Kucinich delegates won by a shrewd political bargain on DK's part.

[Tinoire]

56. I think it's clear to the entire board that that's no DK supporter.

But let's keep humoring that poster.

[Jerseycoa]

3. Heh heh

"If I was waiting to pair up with someone who agrees with me, I would still be waiting."

[diamondsoul]

10. Unfortunately,

Clark wasn't competing or that would have been a decent matchup as far as policies go.

What most people aren't grasping is that he had to deal with someone who wasn't likely to get his supporters if they came up short and vice versa. Nobody seems to get that in order for a deal like that to work, you have to make it with someone who gets a totally different demographic of supporters than you do! DUH!

[maddezmom]

11. actually, I do get it

and that's why I posted the article. DK had a strategy for Iowa and he explained himself well. :)

[diamondsoul]

13. I gathered you understood it.

I just wish some of his supposed supporters did. GRRR! I spent all day Monday and yesterday both trying to get it across to them.

There's another piece to the puzzle- Dennis wanted to get word to his supporters himself, but the story went out and got botched (msnbc reporting he weas dropping and backing Edwards) before he had a chance to do it.

[IrateCitizen]

12. This article misses the point of his alliance with Edwards

Maybe biography trumped ideology for Kucinich, the former mayor of Cleveland. As the son of a North Carolina textile mill worker and a postal clerk, Edwards had a childhood that more closely mirrors Kucinich's own working class roots than the privileged upbringing shared by Dean and Massachusetts Senator John F. Kerry. Kucinich reminded supporters again yesterday that he is the oldest of seven children, that his family moved 21 times before he was 17 years old, that his parents never owned a home, and that sometimes the family was forced by financial realities to live in their car.

Actually, the primary reason for the Kucinich/Edwards alliance was that Edwards has been talking up the anti-corporatist, populist economic line lately -- a centerpiece of Dennis's campaign and record.

[diamondsoul]

15. That wasn't the primary reason.

As I explained above, the primary reason was that both Dennis and Edwards needed a voter demographic they weren't likely to get without making that deal to be viable in the caucuses. It worked probably better for Edwards than Kucinich, but we're still in the race and we did as well as the polls predicted which was more than the average voter expected for Kucinich.

[Terwilliger]

20. Why are you running again, Dennis?

"If I was waiting to pair up with someone who agrees with me, I would still be waiting."

Nobody agrees with you, Dennis. They're patting you on the head. "Good little leftist. OK, that's enough now."

[diamondsoul]

24. That's pathetic, Ter.

I mean REALLY pathetic.

Stick to his principles no matter what, never play the game even if it means losing. Yes, please do tell us why he should run YOUR way.

YOUR way wasn't going to get him delegates in Iowa, was it? SHOW me how he "sold-out". Show me a single issue he changed his position on, a single penny he took from special interests, where he announced he was ditching public funding, or where he said he agreed with John Edwards on anything.

He sold out not a damned thing and gained in the ranks, and if you just wanted him to talk and accomplish nothing, that's your tough luck. He's running to become the President not a f*cking martyr!

[Nadienne]

26. Right On!

"He's running to become the President not a f*cking martyr!"

[Terwilliger]

37. If he thinks he'll be president, then I lose respect for him

because he should know he doesn't have a chance

So THEN what...what does he do with his ideology? Compromise it right down to the centrist nub? Make back-room deals with this candidate or that candidate whose support HE WOULDN'T GET from them?!?!

Dennis should say that his run for the presidency is about introducing ideas and ideological values to the Dem party platform for this year. That should be his goal. When he decided that his supporters should back Edwards (for WHATEVER reason) he said implicitly that Edwards' other stands aren't important.

[Zomby Woof]

40. but you voted for Nader!!

:D LOL! You didn't think HE had a chance, did you?

[redqueen]

Newsflash

His ideas won't get to be on the platform if he has no one at the convention.

Do I have this right? Do delegates get to vote on platform planks independently from the candidate they represent?

[diamondsoul]

44. Then why bother at all?

I'm deadly serious, if he should "know that he doesn't have a chance" then why do it? Introduce issues? Oh gimme a break!

Look if he "doesn't have a chance" then who is going to give two shits about his issues?! Extremist idealism. Sorry, I'm not that stupid anymore.

What he "said" when he asked supporters IN IOWA thanks, not nationwide, to back Edwards is "Hey, if you back my friend here, you'll help take Howard Dean down in the standings and help boost me up." That's exactly what happened. I wouldn't have even thought of it, nevermind advising it, and I say Kudos to everyone involved. It was a shrewd move to stay in the race and boost our position.

See I'm not an extremist, I'm a middle-aged SAHM who wants a President I can respect and be proud to say I helped get elected. I want Dennis Kucinich to be the next President, and if we have to play politics once in a while to make that happen, I'll play politics once in a while. Why? Because getting a REAL, Decent human being into that office matters more to me than people like you spitting on him because he made a political one time only deal with his long-time friend.

[goodhue]

52. What Dennis Thinks . . .

http://kucinich.us/kirkwood.php

"Some would think it's unwise to suggest that when you have 1% of the delegates that somehow you can take that as a springboard to the nomination, but I will say that kind of daring and fearlessness is what this country is actually looking for at this time, because if we have learned anything over the past few weeks, it is that the political condition in this state and for that matter in this country is very volatile, that somebody's up one day and down the next. So this campaign is always going to be committed to consistent principles which I believe at some point the American people will wholeheartedly embrace and I'm going to begin with this: and that is the principle that we must work for a peaceful resolution of the situation in Iraq which means bringing in UN peacekeepers and bringing our troops home. Let me tell you that while this becomes urgent that some of the election results already are being interpreted as being a rejection of the message about getting out of Iraq.

I will make a prediction that the American people, as this campaign season continues to advance, will begin to focus very sharply on this question of Iraq and the connection between the positions of the various candidates and what those positions will mean with respect to that prospective nominee and whether or not we're going to continue to be in Iraq. This campaign, and we are at the beginning of this campaign, will offer the American people a sharp contrast with all the other candidates.

* * * *

Now Chet Quinn talked about Dr. Martin Luther King, and he gave a speech at Riverside Church in New York, and I believe it was in 1967, where he talked about the war in Vietnam, as destroying the hopes of peoples of two nations. Of Vietnam and of the United States. This war is already costing the American people, the treasure of so many of our young people, 500 casualties, as well as great financial losses. Now I am letting you know that I am going to be there for you every step of the way. And that we will either bring these other Democratic candidates into an identical position or we are going to sweep them aside as we go to the nomination.

* * * *

[Tinoire]

58. If that were his only goal I wouldn't be supporting him

I'm surprised at you and I'm your friend. Kucinich is in this to win. And I'm supporting him for a win. I'm not spending my time talking to total strangers about him just so his ideological values can be introduced into the Democratic Party and people can walk around going (lower voice one octave) "he's great but America is not ready for him". Screw that. They can get an introduction to his ideas from some philosophy book or the biography of Martin Luther King. His goal is to WIN. My goal is to WIN. And now I'm seeing that it's against very hard odds thanks to all the people who say "I like him but he's unelectable" or for a first, that his goal should be the laughable one of introducing ideas and ideological values to the Democratic Party. With that attitude, nothing will ever change.

Kucinich is no fringe-leftist fool. He's not even my ideal candidate but he offers the best balance of the things I believe in and want. Edwards, despite his war vote, offers a decent balance because he addresses some issues that are very important to me- issues concerning the little man. The balance. The whole. That's all I want.

Had I been in that caucus room and Edwards was one person shy of the count he needed and Kucinich was over, I would have happily slide over to the Edwards side because I know, full well, that in some other precinct, the reverse was going on and an Edwards supporter like AP was coming over to the Kucinich side to help us get our caucus vote.

Ideology ain't worth shit if you don't have a platform. And by God, I will do what it takes to get Kucinich that platform.

Also you're repeating a lie there. Kucinich did not decide that his supporters should back Edwards. Both he & Edwards made a strategic deal and asked supporters to do it, only if they were comfortable doing it. All they did was let their supporters know that if we liked the other guy it would help out instead of standing together as some ridiculous block.

I am really surprised. "If he thinks he'll be president, then I lose respect for him". My respect for him is unimpacted. If anything, it's gone up because he's proving that he's in there to win and will use the system in order to do so.

This is probably why the Left can't win shit and sits around bitching all day about the system. You can't eat purism. Maybe the Left prefers 4 year sour groups where we can sit around bitching that the system stinks. Not me.

[no name no slogan]

49. DK got MORE in IA than they're giving him credit for

With the way caucuses work (the horse-trading aspect), DK got a lot more than the ones they're giving him in the "official" count.

A good number of the Edwards delegates are actually DK delegates "in disguise". They were given delegate slots as a bargain for their support in the non-viable precincts. The non-viable DK subcaucuses joined the Edwards subcaucuses and were often "paid off" with an extra delegate or two who were for Edwards in name only-- but were actually Kucinich supporters!

After speaking with a number of folk who returned from Iowa yesterday, I'm even more optimistic than ever. DK won Jefferson county in N. Iowa with 30% of the vote. Statewide, DK was at 10% or so-- not bad for a man who only had 10 paid staffers in IA, compared to Dean's 200.

IMHO, Edwards' showing in IA was a clear indicator that DK and his supporters are the ones calling the shots this year. WE had the power to change the results of Iowa, and turn the whole race upside down in the process.

[Nadienne]

50. LOL

Hey, share some of that credit with Edwards! We, the underdogs, shook up the race. That's the important thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Yes, each delegate represents 15% of the attendees

So unless a precinct caucus had only 7 attendees, each delegate represents well more than one person. If the precinct attracted 100 attendees, each delegate represents 15 people. In a three hundred person precinct, each delegate represents 45 people.

Without the figures for the initial groupings in each precinct, it is impossible to know exactly how many DK supporters came to the caucuses. Theoretically, he could have been over 10% in every precinct but able to win delegates in only a few of them.

In this case, 1% of the delegates definitely does NOT mean 1% of the people--or even the 3% predicted in the polls.

[Nadienne]

53. In my precinct,

113 attendees, and 8 Kucinich supporters. That's 7%. And I know there were more Kucinich fans in my neighborhood that couldn't come to the caucus.

Certainly better than 3%. The untold story...

[Nadienne]

25. So he should just drop out?

A lot of people wish he would. But I want him to be taken seriously. Edwards takes him seriously. All the supporters of other candidates also apparently take him seriously: listen to them grumble because Dennis didn't make "the deal" with someone else.

And besides, this "deal" got blown out of proportion anyway. It's not some contract - "I'll give you my supporters here if you give me your supporters there." Do you really think Kucinich would promise that kind of thing?

No; you are the victim of spin. Think about it.

[Terwilliger]

38. I've been told that running quixotic campaigns is nothing but an ego trip

is that true?

[Zomby Woof]

41. why don't you ask Ralph?

nt

[Nadienne]

45. The fact that Edwards came in second

When he was predicted as a distant fourth gives me hope that Kucinich's campaign is not quixotic.

But apparently you think Kucinich is a liar anyway. He has said he was in this to win, to be the next president. Did you think he was just talking tough? He means it, and so do I.

[redqueen]

33. WTF?

Nice dismissive post there. Got a point?

FYI, his campaign has grown in support and funding each and every day since his "Prayer for America". So... what was your point again?

[Terwilliger]

39. My point is that Dennis had a particular innocence with his campaign

that I don't see anymore

[redqueen]

42. Sorry

I'm not evaluating him based on aesthetic qualities.

And anyone who's been in politics as long as he is is in no way, shape, or form 'innocent'. He's honorable and has the courage of his convictions, but politics is politics.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. You don't survive in politics

by being "innocent."

I guess some people who claim to be Kucinich supporters have nothing better to do than bash him.

[MMT]

54. Innocence?

Most of the people he has opposed in elections say he's a real idealist, but also very practical and a shrewd politician. Also that he has boundless energy and is very frugal with donated money. I don't think they see him as innocent at all.

[MMT]

28. Eileen McNamara is no liberal

It doesn't take reading many columns of hers in the Globe to realise that. I don't respect her at all.

[Nadienne]

35. Welcome to DU

"Eileen McNamara is no liberal" - I agree with you there.

[MMT]

55. Thanks for the Welcome, Nadienne!

I'm mostly a lurker because by the time I make up my mind about what I want to say, usually ten other people have already said it. :)

[nancyharris]

47. Eileen McNamara column on Bostom.com is a good example

of a journalist that doesn’t have a clue. Had she had the presence to think for just a minute she might have actually written an article that deals substantially with the concept that “Ideology isn’t enough”. Ideology is a set of values that one believes in and by which one conducts their life. Congressman Kucinich does not (nor does any other candidate) hold any ideological value that prohibits working with, dealing with, collaborating with, or even supporting someone whose stand on issues is different that his. In fact most find that ability a virtue.

The answer to the question “Is ideology enough?” is decidedly NO – never. I suspect all of the Democratic candidates and certainly the vast majority of their supporters will at some point actively support one whose stand on some of the issues is different than theirs.

The primary is a time for candidates to air their views and a time when party members collate their attitudes on issues. It is a period of growth and understanding for all not a beauty contest. Congressman Kucinich is an important element in that process.

[Iverson]

57. a minor difference of opinion

Ms. McNamara does know on which side of the bread is her butter. Since Kucinich had the temerity to criticize the news media for their irrelevant focus, he has been punished. He is a safe target.

In an age of consolidation of media ownership, the thoughtfulness that you offer is a luxury, even something to be scorned. Sound bytes are where it's at. LOL, ROTFLMAO, and all that jazz.

:pals: