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Did Kucinich's and Edwards' vote-sharing plan help Edwards in Iowa?

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chimpy the poopthrower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:11 AM
Original message
Did Kucinich's and Edwards' vote-sharing plan help Edwards in Iowa?
Sorry if this has been addressed already. I've been away for a while. I know Kucinich and Edwards had asked their supporters to give each other their votes if either looked like they weren't going to meet a minimum. Did this help Edwards in Iowa or not? Or is it impossibile to determine? I know Kucinich got some votes but not many.
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Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. yes
a few extra delegates in a few extra precincts gave him a boost. DK didn't really lose out much, because he wasn't close to viable in most places.

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gWbush is Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. WHY does DK like Edwards????
I would like to hear from a DK supporter, not an Edwards supporter.
Thanks.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. try diamondsoul or MuseRider...
I don't know why he did it. I guess he felt like his voters should have more influence than none at the caucuses.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Edwards is an economic populist.
Who runs an optimistic hopeful campaign about getting rid to the "two Americas." He is talking directly about the growing separation of wealth in the country and the need to unify and lift up working people who have been left behind. He talks about jobs, education and health care. Although not as progressive as Dennis, he has made jobs, education and health care the center of his campaign and does not waster time belittling others. Also, like Dennis he comes from a working class background and has fought to get where he is against naysayers. They have a lot in common.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. similar family backgrounds
both made it where they are without much when it comes to money.
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tryanhas Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Edwards supporter here
But, Kucinich and Edwards are good friends.

On the Daily Show, Kucinich said that out of all of the candidates, he and John Edwards are the closest, meaning good friends.

Edwards proposed a "Winning the Peace" Act last year. I am hoping that President Edwards will create something like DK's Department of Peace and appoint DK head of it...
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. Welcome to DU, tryanhas!
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. They relate to each other well.
They may not agree on how to repair the country right this minute, but their end goals are near identical and they have very similar backgrounds. They each "get" where the other is coming from.

Edwards would like to see Universal Healthcare and Universal Education in his lifetime. He just doesn't think Kucinich's plans to get it will fly through Congress, so he proposes something a little less drastic. They disagree on crime, but I wonder if that has to do with Edwards training as a lawyer and his experience as a less than wealthy young person seeing how people can turn to crime.

The bottom line is they can talk, disagree, argue, what have you, and still like each other as human beings.

I've never once thought Edwards was a corporate shill or a bad guy. I simply don't agree that we need to be gradual with the changes necessary because those changes are needed NOW not 10 years down the road. Some of us can't afford to wait 10 years.
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Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. I am
and was until he wasn't viable at my caucus. But thanks.

I think he anti-corporate message is similar to DK - DK also mentioned his positive campaign. I don't think DK thinks Dean is very genuine as far as being a leftist. So, choosing between all moderate candidates, I think DK feels more comfortable with John Edwards' message. And also I know they are friends.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. yes, it was a good strategy for both
that's what caucuses are all about. also it should be noted that the supporters did not HAVE to do this. they did it because they wanted to.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. certainly
But evidence is all ancedotal, no hard numbers.
Of the 954 delegates that Edwards got, its likely that at least a few dozen of them if a lot more are actually Kucinich supporters.
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surfermaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. Caucus
I saw one caucus on T.V...CSPAN...I don't think Dennis K...people would vote with Edwards..One young man was trying to get the Gep. people to go with Dennis..but if I saw and understood correctly, the Gep. people wouldn't go with the Dennis K. crowd and the Dennis K. crowd wouldn't go with the Gep. crowd, if they would have gone with Edwards he would have probably come out with 4 delegates in this particular C....Did any one watch the C. on CSPAN..if they did , is my story correct.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. on c-span
One of the two Dean delegates was a DK supporter and I believe one of the three Edwards delegates was a DK supporter. At least those promises were made, I'm not certain if they played out. But many more DK supporters, like our own Ficus, caucused with Edwards and got a DK supporter elected as an Edwards delegate. This is how the game is played in Iowa.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=149388
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Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. yes
and because of that, a Kucinich supporter is now bringing those progressive ideals to our platform at the district convention. That's how it does work in Iowa. Strange, but it's our way.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Hi!
We are having a caucus here as well. I am sure that in some areas he did help Edwards and I agree with everything that has been said above about DK's reasons for doing this. Because of DK's consistancy and integrity I tend to trust him and if he feels like JE is who he would throw his support to (if he needed to) then I am OK with that. Although I disagree with JE on his votes for IRW and the Patriot Act I do not think he is Bush* lite. He seems to me a very good man with the same basic social agenda. I trust my candidate to chose wisely. IF he had wavered all over the place I would not. Since he is planning to stay in this until the convention I hope I will not have to send my support elsewhere at our caucus but because of where I live I most likely will. However, CSPAN will not be there but you can count on me being that lone person running around looking for support for our side.
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Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. time will tell
Many DK supporters are now delegates for Edwards in the county conventions. If Edwards happens to be out of the race by the mid march conventions then the delegates can split there votes wherever they chose from the candidates left running. If DK is still running then he may pick up more delegates. For instance,in 92 I switched my Harkin vote to Jerry Brown.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Thanks for that point
And welcome to DU!

:hi:
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Hi Jericho!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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tryanhas Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. Not that much
Edited on Wed Jan-21-04 11:40 AM by tryanhas
The fact of the matter is Edwards got more of a boost from Gephardt's people than from Kucinich's 3 percent.

Kucinich was polling at 3% in all of the polls.

Edwards won 32% of the delegates in the caucuses.

Gephardt finished with 11% of the delegates and Dean had 18%.

Obviously, Edwards got a lot of Gephardt's people, and some of the people who were LOOSELY SUPPORTING Dean.

Kucinich's 3% didn't do a lot for Edwards in terms of him placing as high as he did, so I wish people would stop crying about it, like the people calling in to the Thom Hartman show on yesterday.

Edwards was at 21% in the last Tracking Poll in Iowa. Dean was at 22%, Gephardt at 18% and Kucinich at 3%.

Take away 7% from Gep and give it to Edwards, now he is at 28% and Gephardt is at the 11% he got in the caucuses.

Take away 4% from Dean and Edwards is now at 32% which is what he got, and Dean is at 18% which is what he got in the caucuses.

Of course it's not that simple because Kerry also got some of that support, but to think that Kucinich bumped Edwards up to 32% is foolish...
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Hang on now-
Don't diminish the affect of Kucinich supporters joining Edwards groups. I'm betting there were plenty of places Edwards wouldn't have been viable without Kucinich supporters assistance. All it takes is ONE short of the minimum, you know.

I do think Edwards was in a far better position in Iowa than polls indicated, but please don't blow us off as if we meant nothing. I wouldn't do that to Edwards' people, and I'd appreciate the same in return.
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tryanhas Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:50 AM
Original message
I'm not blowing you off
I'm just saying that TOO MANY PEOPLE are crying as if Edwards got 32%, THIRTY-TWO PERCENT!!!, just because of Kucinich's vote of confidence, and that just plain foolish to believe.

Gephardt and Dean dropped tremendously from the polls to the actually vote, and Edwards and Kerry benefited more from them than from Kucinich.

I'm not saying that Kucinich's support didn't help, but without it, Edwards would have still been viable in most places and finished in second, maybe around 28% instead of 32%, but I like DK...
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm not sure I'd bet on your estimate,
but I get what you're saying now. It's all good. I still say the agreement helped both, just probably a bit more on Edwards' side than Kucinich's, and that's fine. That's politics, you know?

As someone else pointed out, you can't really count the final tally as indicative of anyone's true support in Iowa because it only shows the viability factor. You could have 14.9% and nobody would know.

Personally, I'm estimating Kucinich probably did make 10% Statewide only we haven't seen it and never will.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. well
Edited on Wed Jan-21-04 12:06 PM by goodhue
folks I know who were in Iowa say otherwise, but your certainly entitled to your impression

On Edit: I don't disagree that Edwards got support from Gephardt and Dean as well. I just disagree with your subject line of not too much help from DK. I sincerely think DK-supporters were responsible for several of Edwards percentage points. Maybe I'm wrong. But in any event, if your point is that Edwards still would have beat Dean, even if DK had backed Dean over Edwards, I can't disagree.
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tryanhas Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Did they attend every caucus?
I doubt it.

What happened in 1 or 2 is not telling of them all.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. certainly not every caucus
but there were at least several dozen caucuses in which DK-supporters were ELECTED as Edwards delegates and probably a lot more. The accounts I've heard were just from the several dozen Minnesotans who spent the last weeks in Iowa for Dennis.
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. you're confusing % of delegates with votes
There's no way to say what % of caucus goes supported who because the results are only on % of delegate each won, not on percentage of supporters each had. but I would assume it's fair to say that Kucinich obviously had more than the 3% support the polls said, because if he did he wouldn't have won ANY delegates.

Truth is Kucinich could have had 14.9% support in every precint and we wouldn't know because if it isn't 15% it doesn't count.
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tryanhas Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. I'm not confusing anything
I'm just saying that Edwards benefited from around the board.

People are focusing on Kucinich like it meant the most.

EDWARDS GOT A LOT OF GEPHARDT'S SUPPORT, his second choice appeal benefited him more than DK's vote of confidence.

People are trying to focus on that like he cheated to get 32% and that's just short-sighted.

Edwards got some of Gep's support, Dean's shaky support, and Kucinich's supporters, and based on the post below, he got some of Clark's as well.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. "People are focusing on Kucinich like it meant the most."
Ahhh, now that I understand!

I don't know that I agree with your perception but it does make sense. I don't think that a Kucinich supporter thing, though. It's because of the fuss that has been made over the deal to start with, know what I mean?

I think some of Kucinich's supporters probably helped kick Edwards to viability in places where he was shy and that didn't happen as much the other way. I'm still a little stunned about the Union people not backing Kucinich over others, and have high hopes for gaining in that group with Gep having dropped out.

Edwards is a good man, plain and simple. I don't get why people hate so much. Yeah, ok, he helped write the Patriot Act- people, it was going to be written no matter whether he helped, and criminy I'm damned glad he stuck a Dem influence in there to TRY to mitigate what was being proposed! The IWR, well hell, even I wasn't sure if it was necessary! I had days where I wondered "Well what IF he has nukes or is close to it? What happens to us then?". I know he'd have used WMDs on us if he had them and probably as soon as possible. Hussein is a slime-ball, and I'm glad he's not in control anymore, I just don't happen to like how we got that accomplished. John Edwards thought it was necessary. Ok, he had to make a choice, I didn't. God bless him for doing what he believed was right.
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. i'm not talking about that
I'm talking about how you're adding up percentages from the polls to equal Edwards' 32%, and that's not how it happens since Edwards recieved 32% of the DELEGATES and not 32% of the vote, they're two different things.

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Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. there is some truth to that
my sister went Gephardt in Cedar Falls, and he wasn't viable. She went Edwards after.

I think that Edwards had great crossover appeal, and his positive campaign made the difference with all non-viable candidates.

I saw DK, undecided, and Clark people go Edwards. I know Gephardt folks other places did too.
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Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
21. what I got in my email box monday...
Edited on Wed Jan-21-04 11:54 AM by Ficus
Kucinich and Edwards Caucus Strategy

The Dennis Kucinich for President campaign is focused on turning out Iowans to caucus for Kucinich. Senator John Edwards' campaign is focused on turning out Iowans to caucus for Edwards. Neither campaign is dropping out or endorsing the other.

In precincts where one or both campaigns are not viable (do not have the minimum number of supporters to elect one delegate), the Kucinich and Edwards campaigns are joining forces. In these precincts only, caucusers in whichever of these two groups is smaller are being asked to move to the other campaign. Ultimately, of course, this decision is up to each individual participant.

Congressman Kucinich and Senator Edwards are friends and share a positive and optimistic approach to this election.


nothing seems fishy to me.

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chimpy the poopthrower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
28. I think I'm getting it now.
So the Iowa caucus works a bit like the electoral college, right? It's a winner-take-all system by precinct?
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Actually,
The Iowa caucuses are closer to IRV. You pick a first and if/when the first doesn't make the cut-off you go to the second.
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Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. not quite
let me use my precinct as an example. We had about 308 or so folks there. The original breakdown was something like 70 or so Dean, 98 or so Edwards, 118 or so Kerry, 19 Kucinich, 3 Clark, and a few undecideds.

We had 7 delegates to elect. After the second round of voting, if your group is not viable at 15%, or 46 people at my caucus, you must change. Our Kucinich group couldn't pull enough from any group to get 46, so we had to change. Some went Kerry, some went Dean, and most went Edwards. Final total was Kerry 129, Edwards 108, Dean 76.

There is a mathematical formula used to figure out delegates, and Kerry got 3 Delegates, Edwards 2 delegates, and Dean 2.
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chimpy the poopthrower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Great!
Thanks Ficus and diamondsoul!
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