I saw Senator Kerry on Tim Russert's show yesterday and

[MISSDem]

once again, I felt so depressed. How could Bush have been elected over this wise, articulate, good, well-spoken, thoughtful, handsome man? And it makes me so mad that those same people who re-elected Bush are now saying things like "I'm not happy with the way things are going in Iraq" and "I don't like the way the economy is doing", etc. It just infuriates me that now they have put him back in office they don't like Bush.

[WI_DEM]

1. if it is any consolation Kerry got over 59 million votes

the second highest ever, so alot of people feel the way you do. It was no mandate, that is for sure.

[underpants]

2. Mehlman's statement said it all

Except of course he totally turned the truth and reality on their heads.

Mehlman basically said that Americans chose the path of freedom (that W campained on) over fear (which Kerry supposedly campaigned on).

Wow they are good

[WindRavenX]

3. I hope he runs again

Say what you want about his campaign- there were major flaws- but I am honestly beginning to believe that the social conditions that Kerry was operating under were just too hostile to anyone but Bush. Bush's people are masters of propaganda, voter fraud, and manipulating the public. He had this for four years and Kerry couldn't break thru this- and that's not a knock against Kerry because I honestly believe that no one could have defeated Bush.

[Vincardog]

4. Donald Duck could have defeated aWoL in a FAIR election.

When will Sen. Kerry put the FAIR open ELECTION amendment into every piece of legislation until it is passed?

[WindRavenX]

6. I hear you

But I really think you underestimate just how paranoid/fearful this nation has been since 9/11 with the exploitation the Bush Administration on the public; people voted out of fear.
However, there still needs to be a HUGE reform on election laws- that certainly helped Bush. But I believe the enviroment of fear is what really killed Kerry.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

10. America is a WEAK nation at heart!

We never had to endure true horror on a MASS SCALE unlike most of the other world. America has NO idea as to what pain and suffering is. That's why Americans as a whole take everything they have for granted.

:(

[Vincardog]

17. Right we never had to suffer the Great Depression did we?

[hatrack]

38. Most Americans living now never did

The stress and shock of the Vietnam era ended a generation ago and change. In fact, we have the 30th anniversary of the fall of Saigon coming up this April.

The peak of the protest movement was a good five years before that, the beginning of World War II for the US 30 years earlier still, and the bottom of the Great Depression another eight more remote still.

Those who experienced the Great Depression as adults are nearly all gone now, and those who lived through it as kids are dwindling rapidly. Americans today are a long, long way from living memory of truly troubled times, and our collective historical ignorance/amnesia doesn't improve our sense of perspective, either.

[WMliberal]

47. I never did. Did you? Where is this "we" coming from?

"We" are now an America that has fewer and fewer people who DO remember true suffering and saw what true evil looked like. It's bad enough that people are forgetful, but now we have two generations that never experienced that kind of hardship and are allowing themsleves to ignore the causes of coming crises. The "it can't happen here" mentality is quite strong in America today and many are willing to fight, lie, cheat, and steal their way to keeping that mentality in power because it makes our MNCs rich.

[spooked911]

18. Agree. What a shame. He's made us weaker both physically and mentally!

[FreedomAngel82]

35. If you haven't yet

watch the movie "hijacking castrastophe." It talks about BushCo controlling people through fear. I believe it's at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info If not let me know cause I have another link to the movie.

[JI7]

7. the election was close enough a few small things would have turned

in Kerry's favor.

the first would have been to bring up his work as a prosecutor and the senate investigations and about his running a small business and the youth build program he set up. this would have helped with the crap about how he did nothing and lived off his wives money while at the same time showing him to have been tough. it would have went well with the military service in that it showed a lifetime fighter and not just about his service in vietnam.

and they should have advertised in rural areas and taken seriously the campaigning against him in churches and other religious places. he may not have won most of these votes but it would have chipped away at the support Bush got and in a close election it would help.

i can understand why they didn't do the second as they couldn't know early on how much money they would raise and how much the republicans would have.

but there isn't much excuse for not doing the first in mentioning the work he has done in his life.

[WindRavenX]

9. he did do a lot of religious things

And the media promptly blasted him for it.
The media is part of the problem- and it is a huge part in why Kerry was seen so negatively.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. That's one thing

that pisses me off. The country acts like the republicans are the only Christian ones. On this Christian board I go to (there are non-Bush supporters there so I'm happy about that) I posted about people blindly following people just because they were Christian and said how they didn't with Clinton and he's Christian and someone had the nerve to say he wasn't a Christian. Of course I fired back and said how dare they judge his beliefs and how I didn't judge Bush's. :mad: If they go back and look at history and look at who stud up for people it wasn't the republicans. We have religion too. Ugh!

[Shawneedaughter]

14. "Did you vote for him/Bush?" NO!!!

"....and they should have advertised in rural areas and taken seriously the campaigning against him in churches and other religious places. he may not have won most of these votes but it would have chipped away at the support Bush got and in a close election it would help...."


I live in the rural area North of Kansas City, MO and in the weeks after the election the common question was "Did you vote for him?" Always the answer was NO and HOW did he get elected.

IMHO, the vote manipulation is the reason that 'Bush the lesser' is in office.

[merh]

28. Welcome to DU!

You are exactly right - it was the fraud, the theft. They stole it!
:hi:

[Shawneedaughter]

30. thanks

for the welcome :)

Election definitely stolen....would you expect any less from them after the 2000 performance?

[SharonRB]

19. Election fraud, not voter fraud.

Faye -- if you're out there, sorry for doing your job!

[Shawneedaughter]

26. I've heard about that :)

Election Fraud is the term used. I am wondering if criminal behavior, as pertains to Election Fraud, is acceptable?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. I hope so too

And I think under a new DNC chairman (I'm hoping for Dean) the campaign will be 100 times better then this last one. And even though I'm only 22 I think he's very cute too. Even when he was my age. :loveya: I saw a photo of him on a fairy going somewhere with a camera on his neck and he looks like the actor Brad Renfro in it. :)

[yurbud]

5. handsome is going too far--he should have grown a lincoln beard

and got a stove piple hat. Then he could have said he was running for re-election and stupid people would think they were voting for Lincoln.

[WI_DEM]

8. Lincolnesque isn't bad

[SharonRB]

20. I disagree

I think he is handsome and has a lot of charisma -- I know many people will disagree, but I really think he does.

[JI7]

23. i agree with you

i'm very much into him.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. LOL That's funny

He's taller then Lincoln too by an inch or two. On the Kids for Kerry site I read an interview they did with him and he was saying how he was an inch or two taller then Lincoln, so if he was President he would've been the tallest. :)

[cindyw]

11. My reaction to people who complain about the President and who voted for

him, is "Live with it, eat and sleep with it. Sleep with the knowledge that you are responsible for all of this too now."

[PROGRESSIVE1]

12. I've met a number of these who voted for Bush in November....

and now say that they regret their vote.

[liberalpragmatist]

13. Well, aren't they happy?

I'm quite open to other people and tolerant of other views. I still have many Republican friends. But I have really lost a lot of sympathy for people who complain about how things are then voted against Bush citing the right-wing talking points against Kerry.

It truly is depressing. The American people rejected TWO of the smartest, brightest people ever to run for President. I honestly believe that both Al Gore and John Kerry had the potential to be great US presidents. TWICE they chose Bush. (Okay, to be fair, a plurality voted for Gore in 2000 and he probably won Florida).

[0007]

15. I've four old timers that regret voting for junior.

But most are so locked into FAUX News that nothing could change their minds.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. It's too late now

and they deserve what they voted for. They should've looked into everything on their own instead of just watching Faux.

[0007]

44. I agree!

[rockymountaindem]

41. Some people I'm aware of through a family member say the same.

I don't know about any of my Bush voting friends, I haven't broached the subject. I'm not in the mood for more gloating.

[liberalpragmatist]

16. I think it speaks to Americans' anti-intellectualism

Unfortunately both Gore and Kerry, two of the smartest political leaders in the country, were hurt by perceptions that they were "too smart for their own good." The very fact that Kerry spoke French hurt him with some people. There's a reason why style is important in politics. And it's disheartening. I'll be thrilled if Kerry overcomes this to win in '08 but I'm also realistic. I think he'd make a fantastic president but I want to win in '08. I'll keep an open mind towards his candidacy but I'm also keeping an open mind to everybody else. Frankly, I think Edwards may be stronger given his better charisma.

But I guess we've still got some time. Four years is a long time in politics.

[LittleClarkie]

21. I was at an event last night talking to a woman going Green

and talking about seeing how many other people she can talk into going Green too. "That should scare the Democrats."

This woman was a child of the Nixon era. Her very first vote was for Nixon, and Watergate messed up her trust. She liked Kusinich and campaigned for him, but otherwise would probably been Green. She was at both the Green and the Dems conventions.

I found her talk of wanting a mass exodus out of the Dem Party and into the Green Party (at least for 4 years, just to scare the Dems into acting like they have cajones, she said) vaguely depressing. The Dems aren't perfect, but splitting up the opposition seems like a victory for the Republicans. They're already talking like they want to see the Dems go away entirely. How undemocratic is that -- wanting a one party system.

Well, to be fair, one guy I spoke to wanted two parties, but in his world the Republicans would be the left wing, and some other party would be farther to the right than them.

Talk of "scaring the Dems" sounds too much like playing games to me. We don't have time for games, or for doing things just to make a point. We need a strong unified opposition to the Republicans. And actually, I don't know about anyone else, but I think I see some cajones starting to grow on a number of Dems (except Barbara. I don't know what she's growing. Might be a spine instead). Now seems like the time to encourage that move to stand tall, not weaken them.

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

22. Never mind Edwards or Bayh or whoever.

They (Corporate Media + Rethugs) will do the same number on any "fresh face" that they did to Gore and Kerry -- they did it to Clinton too, who was fortunate enough to (a) have Perot around and (b) have no electronic voting for easy fraud.

We have to, in fact, embrace aggressively our past (much-vilified) nominees, put them up again, and win with an in-your-face strategy.

Dean as DNC chair, Gore/Kerry as Prez/VP nominees will do the trick -- I am not moving on to fresh faces until we win!

:-)

[LittleClarkie]

32. The pathetic thing is that even if Kerry by some miracle had gotten in

What about the 8 year smear they conducted on Clinton, saying he was a murderer, a rapist, and a drug runner out of Arkansas. A freeper woman gave me a video with all this crap on it making Clinton sound like a monster. She also thought that Clinton carrying a rose at one point was a signal to some secret society somewhere.

Are they going to do this to any Dem who somehow manages to win the Presidency? Conduct smears and witchhunts on the guy until something cracks? Who ARE these freaks who won't give up?!

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

33. I dont know :-(

But, I think their motivations are not of real concern to us right now (I hate saying that we dont need to learn something, but, read on to see why I am saying that). I am almost afraid that if we delve into what must be dark dark depths, we are not likely to survive with enough energy to fight them.

I keep rationalizing to myself that in the end, it is best that Gore won and didnt take office and Kerry probably won and also didnt take office, because I am certain that the Rethug Congress would have been immediately trying to impeach them or otherwise so severely hamper them (by inane charges that the echo chamber will amplify to a deafening degree) that they might as well have been removed from office.

There is, in my opinion, only one path to salvation for us: get the media to function as it should in a democracy. And there is only one way to that too -- aggressive push-back from the Dem leaders, backed by people power such as ours.

I despair only because the Dem leaders dont seem to get it at all -- even Dean, even Dean! (He says something like "the media will be the media" very lackadaisically!)

The Dems making the rounds need to get directly in the face of these TV clowns, fully armed with relevant material. After Kerry's fudging of the swift-liars question from Timmy y'day, I am completely desperate and despondent now.

We need Gore out there...or we should form a citizen media brigade and gherao TV stations, demanding they put us on and do on screen what we do here! That, or a few elected Rethug leaders grow enough of a conscience to speak out...

[LittleClarkie]

40. Several ideas

Bush goes down first, THEN the people in the media who propped him up goes too. If the nation goes more left, the media will follow, if only to make money on the tastes of the day. I think Bush Co may end up being the black hole that sucks out anyone that people percieve as being part of them, kind of like what happened to Ford, right or wrong, because of his association with Nixon.

I think liberal radio is slowly helping. I think if we can get a liberal tv media going that will help.

I don't think pushing back will help for long. Until we can kill the spin machine, whatever anyone like Gore or Dean does will be spun as them being a bit nuts.

I don't think we can "get" the media to do anything. We can show them a moneymaking deal, and they will follow it like a cat with catnip. If Liberal Radio and/or TV start taking off, the media will have to follow the money. Companies like Sinclair won't, and will indeed fight like a pit bull. But Clear Channel has already shown their willingness to put liberal radio on where they think it will make money.

Also, I think the liberal blogs and online news sources will increasingly play a part. So we need to keep publications like Truthout and RawStory and Salon healthy and promote them.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. I agree with you LittleClarkie

I think there will be something really big (and has to be) to make people not trust BushCo and the republican party. There's just too much unbalance right now. Just like with Clinton and Nixon for example. Whether right or wrong it still happened. This too shall pass. It's just a popular thing right now to be seen as a republican and for BushCo (whether right or wrong).

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

45. I am not so sure about that Rethug popularity, tho'!

I kind of sense a schizophrenic reaction from some of the staunchest Republicans: they seem to be happy and even proud to belong to the party, but are not quite as sunny or upbeat about Bush.

The problem with even the rank-and-file Republicans seems to be that they "know" firmly which side of the bread is buttered, but they are quietly uncomfortable with Bush and his wacko (socially divisive, fiscally irresponsible) brand of 'thuggery.

Which is the reason why I like the Gore/Dean brand of economic populism -- there is a deep vein here that we can and should tap into...

[FreedomAngel82]

42. Some people

just don't like having a two-party system so democrats are always the "bad guys" whether we're right or wrong, whether we do good or bad. *sigh* When we talk about something (like recently with Mr. Kennedy) we get called traitors and anti-American and then when a republican says the SAME thing they get praised! We just can't win! I'm only 22 and already feel tired of all this b.s.

[Vinnie From Indy]

24. Kerry is Infinitely Better Equipped to Lead America than C+ Augustus

& BushCo. Enterprises. I watched the show and I was struck by his immediate defensive posture when Timmy "Whoreboy" Russert began in on a 5 minute rehashing and reviewing of the much discredited "Swift Boat Liar" issues and ads. After sliming Kerry for five minutes under the guise of setting up the question, Russert asks Kerry to comment on whether he was in fact in Cambodia. It is at this point in the show that one can vividly see the reason Kerry lost. Kerry answers that he was in Cambodia and that it was sometime around Christmas. He rambles on defending himself citing the conflicting accounts etc. when he really should have chastised Tim for showing the Swift Boat ad as a preface to his question. He should have calmly, but firmly, explained that men that brought these allegations have all been discredited and then he should have immediately chastised Tim for focusing on a war that has been over for decades when there are soldiers dying as we speak. Regardless of how Tim handled his knuckle slapping, Kerry would have appeared as something other than on the defensive about the issue. The media had a large part in destroying first Dean and then Kerry.

What really drives this point home is that Kerry recently said it was Osama's fault he lost the election. Even if true, that statement was idiotic to make in public. Blaming ANYBODY in public for his defeat does him no good. I do not think it is true however and I do think what happened to him on MTP is much closer to the reason he lost. He has never called the media on their shameless, obviously planned, complicity in the swift boat affair. I don't think his problem is that he isn't a fighter, he just doesn't know when or who to fight. It seems he is still campaigning and the election is over.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Russert repeated three times "Are you going to sign the 180"

The one think I liked about that exchange was picturing freepers heads exploding when Kerry laughed about Corsi.

Has anyone ever used that tactic you suggest on Tim? Have we seen it work for others?

More than going on the attack, I think if you can get a strong enough story out there first, it becomes harder to smear you. Kerry's story wasn't even half told. He is so much more than we see.

I'm just sitting here thinking about his answer about polls that can be wrong, considering for example what happened in Iowa. But then he talked about poll results flatlining just before the election and was very precise about that. So does he put more stock in daily tracking polls showing movement than he does in opinion polls that showed his campaign as being dead before Iowa?

[AngryAmish]

25. We can't win until we decide to fight

You can't reason with a right-wing whore like Russert. When he gives a bullshit run up, he should be called exactly what he is - a right wing whore.

We must find our enemies, drive them before us and make sure they no longer pollute our nation.

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

29. I wrote him immediately.

And called him out but good -- I saw the swifty-liar set up and it was deja vu all over again.

I must say I agree with the other poster too, who also said that Kerry's response to this swifty-liar set up was eminently disappointing. None other than Gore (even Dean pooh-poohs it!) gets the extent of the media sell-out to the Rethugs. Kerry should have discredited the entire of line of attack instead of playing defense...

[TLM]

46. Because the wise, articulate, good, well-spoken, thoughtful, handsome man

...took a dive.