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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:47 PM
Original message
Dean "the evil Republican machine which divides us & does anything to win"
For his part, Dean continues energetically courting the party. At a Los Angeles event, he snipes at President Bush's No Child Left Behind Act ("no school board left standing") and stirs followers by urging them to "take our country back" and exhorting them, "You have the power!" There is the same blowtorch rhetoric - Dean inveighing against "wacko right-wing politics" and "the evil Republican machine which divides us and does anything to win"- delivered with the same unwavering doctor-knows-best certitude.

"Howard Dean galvanized the party, awakened the party, got the party going at the grass roots. He showed how we could raise tens of millions of dollars over the Internet," Maslin said. "For all our faults, that was a historic campaign."

Maslin doesn't say it but, privately, plenty of others do: The Democrats are in such a sorry state, they need to do something dramatic, even if it is a gamble. The question for many is "which Howard shows up," as one former presidential campaign adviser puts it.

"Is it the centrist former governor who has proven his ability to manage and also to bring energy to the grass roots?" asked the former adviser, who has stayed publicly neutral in the chairmanship race. "Or is it the fire-breathing antiwar liberal?"

more...
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050130/REPOSITORY/501300377/1037/NEWS04

Yeah, so "the evil Republican machine" joins "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for". Maybe we can get him to compare Bush to Hitler by week's end to round it out.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm sorry, but I just can't get all worked up about Dean calling
the evil Republican machine an evil Republican machine.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
55. He could have said, "neoCONfascist machine",...
Would that have worked better for you?

The bottom line is,...we all know (and if you don't, please accept my apology in advance) that the "rule of the jungle" has been waqed by those in power.

"They" don't give a rat's ass about American's best interests, let along the best interests of humanity.

If you don't get that,...I will hug you and shake you.

What part don't you get,...about "reality"?

Republicans are "PARTY-LOYAL" without regard to consequences (and I am grateful to witness some whispy voices of principle).

You object to which/what part?
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
79. Read my post again.
:)
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. So he should say Bush is doing a great job instead?
We're glad the Democrats lost and America's better off for it?

Really now...
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. We need another Terry Mac style moderate
The GOP doesn't have their 60 seat filibuster proof Senate majority yet.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. yeah we should play nice
It has worked so well for the last ten years or so.

If we just keep trying to set a good example for the rethugs, eventually they will play nice too. Can I puke now?

By the way, the comparison to the megalomaniacal ambitions of a certain austrian posing as a german and a certain connecticut yankee posing as a texan is not wrong.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. I looked at the article and see no context or even date provided for
those quotes. Until I see some, I find it hard to give credence.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Who even cares? These people are nuts in some cases, EVIL in many,
and we need to call them on it.

The bigotry, money-grubbing, and MURDER of innocent people that the Republicans have been pushing is just that- EVIL. It's about time somebody said something.
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PrezLeefun87 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3 million people... 3 million people voted for this "Republican machine" I like machinery!
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well at least he's not openly worshipping Karl's "organization"
so maybe he's starting to restrain himself.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. No wonder the DLC wants to stop Dean
He knows they're trojan horse Repukes disguised as Democrats
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Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. There you go
Teddy Roosevelt said that it is better to speak softly and carry a big stick, but what do you do if you don't have a big stick?
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. dean has ideas for this Democrat party
and doesn't mince his words. Why all this flap about Dean, 'cause he says things we all respond to. The other candidates talk around an issue like it might do them harm if they come straight out with what they think. One can't always say what they think in politics, but lordy, say something. Dean let us know what he though of the issues and what he thought should be done, like medical malpractice, he said something like, this is a problem and there needs to be an investigation into the insurance business first (said this in front of a bunch of doctors), and Clark said something similar in his speeches. Dean can get this party off square one in my opinion. We are boring and predictable.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. So tell me, what's Dean's "idea" on saving SS? Or withdrawing from Iraq?
Or the debt? Or Medicare? Or election reform? Or Rumsfeld? Or Rice? Or Gonzales?

If Dean EVER comes up with an idea that isn't yet another smear, let me know, but I won't be holding my breath.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Dean's running for DNC not Pres.
We need a spokesman and organizer for the candidates. Making appearances on the MSM, etc. He speaks well for the party not just himself.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. That's where I disagree with you -- subject AND message. n/t
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Here's recent thoughts on Rice and Gonzales from 1/23/05:
Stephanopoulos: We're just about out of time. Two quick questions. Would you vote to confirm Condi Rice as Secretary of State?

Dean: No. I think John Kerry and Barbara Boxer made the right vote. I think Condi Rice is a capable person, but her chief attribute in this position is loyalty to the President. I think we need someone who is an independent thinker who is willing to give the President advice that he doesn't want to hear. I don't think that's a hallmark of most Bush appointees.

Stephanopoulos: And how about Judge Gonzales for Attorney General?

Dean: I haven't made up my mind on that because it's too far out, but I'm inclined to agree with Senator Biden. I think Alberto Gonzales is a wonderful American story of somebody who started from nothing and has a tremendous career, but the torture memos are deeply, deeply concerning for any American Attorney General to have said it's okay to use torture under certain circumstances, which is essentially the thrust of those memos. That's of deep, deep concern to me.

___________________________________________________
But don't let me stop you from continuing to hold your breath...
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. In other words, he's playing follow the leader, in this case Kerry and
Boxer, and waiting to hear their Gonzales vote before making a statement. Real stand up.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Why don't you read the rest of it at the link?
Or doesn't it follow your pre-conceived notions?

:tinfoilhat:
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. There's no link in post #15, right now at least, and I already commented
on the link in #24.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You know, I was going to go back and refind the transcript, but screw it.
You want to believe what you want. It won't make a bit of difference to you. I just don't give a shit about what you think.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. I spent a little time browsing Dean's "ideas" yesterday and I can tell you
they're pretty threadbare. On defense, he's basically Kerry without an energy policy, and on everything domestic, he's no different from any DLC member.

Just my impression.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Reread the last three words of my post okay? n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. You claimed he was just a DLCer
I am asking you to find ones who have done what he did.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. I didn't come across any references to the civil unions issue yesterday.
I said "my impression," not "my bulletproof multi-volume dissertation."
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Good God
You have the nerve to start a thread calling us uniformed and you don't know Dean signed a Civil Unions bill and your excuse is you didn't run into it yesterday? Jesus Christ that is hutzpah
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I didn't say I didn't know about it. Yes, he deserves praise for that,
and that's probably ALL he deserves praise for.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. This is what you said
I didn't come across any references to the civil unions issue yesterday

Just what part of that doesn't mean you don't know about Civil Unions?
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Um, this is getting silly, so I think I'll go do some homework, bye n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. If you ever came up with a post which didn't smear Dean
let me know, but I won't be holding my breath.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. That's not my game. n/t
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
65. You mean that's not your mission
Right now. Say something about Dean that you don't object to.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. And here's a wide reaching interview from Fox on Hannity and Colmes
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Nothing on Iraq, nothing on Social Security, nothing on Rumseld, nothing
on any actual policy that I could detect, but plenty on Hillary and the $40 million inauguration.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. You really don't want an answer....


Like a fundi Christian demanding that someone prove evolution. No matter what answer you are given, you'll distort it, misrepresent it, or ignore the parts you don't like in order to prop up your smearing BS.

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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Your tone is kind of annoying, but I'll use small words: in that Fox
interview, I found no mention of the topics I listed.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. YOur endless bashing and smearing is kind of annoying...

And I already gave you several pages of quotes and links on the issues you listed.

As I said... you do not really want an answer to your flaimbait. You just want to bash Dean.

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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. I told you, follow the money. Look at his record, not his Fox chat shows.
n/t
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. Follow what money to where?


You make no solid statement of fact, just a vague insinuation based on your total distortion of one line taken from a several pages of interviews from several quoted sources on the issues you claimed Dean made no position statements on.

Care to cite something specific, or would you rather just make more vague baiting smears?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. HIs idea on SS, at least in the primaries, was to
end the middle class tax cut, raise the amount of money subject to the payroll tax, and to use that money to fix the problem.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Sounds reasonable, like Kerry's, but the time to make the case is NOW. nt
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. actually Kerry wasn't infavor of ending all the tax cuts
that was a major argument during the primaries. Remember the things you claimed people like me paid no attention to.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Correct, only the top tiers, which is actually a much better idea.
Politically at least.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. not if you wish to save social security
Kerry was in favor of taxing the poor to cut taxes for the upper middle class. Very unfair.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Baloney, Kerry was not "in favor of taxing the poor," that's Kool-aid and
you know it. He planned to close the revenue gap by raising taxes on corporations.

So what was Howie's position on corporate loopholes?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Just who do you think pays SS taxes
and gets the best deal out of SS. By delaying the time it took to pay SS back he was taxing the poor (either by keeping their taxes higher than they should be or by cutting benefits or both).
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. Kerry voted for some of those tax cuts for the rich...


And repeatedly attacked Dean or wanting to repeal them.


As usual, Kerry trying to play both sides of the fence.

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
44. Are you willfully uninformed?

Or are you just baiting? Well lets assume you're just uninformed and for some reason unable to use google...



NAFTA

HOWARD DEAN: No. What I said-- Well, I'll tell you what I said in a minute. But I'll follow my train of thought here, most briefly. Free trade has benefited Vermont a great deal. Here's the problem with free trade, and here's why I support fair trade, and why I want to change all our trade agreements to include human rights with trade, as Jimmy Carter included human rights with foreign policy. I still think NAFTA was a good thing. I think the president did the right thing. But the problem now is that, 10 years into NAFTA, here's what we've done. We have shipped a lot of our industrial capacity to other countries. And the ownership pattern, and the ratio of reward between capital and labor in those other countries is what it was 100 years ago in this country.

So the reason for NAFTA is not just trade. It's defense and foreign policy. That is, a middle class country where women fully participate in the economic and political decision making of that country is a country that doesn't harbor groups like Al-Qaeda, and it's a country that does not go to war. So that's in our intersect. That's why trade is really in our long term interest. What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class. The truth is, the trade union movement in this country built America, not literally-- Well, they did do it literally with the Brooklyn Bridge and the Empire State Building, and things like that. But they built America because they allowed people who worked in factories and mines to become middle class people. And America was the strongest country on earth, and still is, because we have the largest middle class on earth, with democratic ideals. That is, working people in this country, by and large, feel that this is their country, and they have a piece of the pie, and it matters what they think.

Now, if you want trade to succeed, ultimately, we're going to have to create a climate in other countries that are beneficiaries of NAFTA where they can create a middle class with democratic ideals. That means we should not have any free trade agreements, and we should go back and tell the WTO that “you need also to include environmental standards and labor standards.” Here's why. Today, if you run a factory in Iowa-- Let's suppose you spend a million dollars a year disposing of all the waste products that come out that are toxic. You can go to another country and dump all that stuff in the river and on the ground. So America, because we have environmental standards, and we're willing to trade, straight out, free trade, with countries that it's cheaper by a million dollars, before you even get to wages, to do business there, I think that's a big problem. We're essentially saying, “Our environmental laws are strict. It's cheaper for you to go into business someplace lese. Go ahead.” That's the wrong thing to do.

The same with labor standards. I don't know why we should be shipping our jobs offshore when kids can work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for a small amount of wages. And isn't that what America fought against 100 years go? Wasn't that the victory of the trade union movement? So it seems to me that my position makes sense. We've gone through 10 years of free trade. We've gotten to a position where we now need to change our trade agreements.

HOWARD DEAN: What I would say is, we've gone the first mile. The first decade has worked, for exactly the reasons you say. I don't disagree with the premise of the free traders. I had this discussion with Bob Rubin, and I said, “Here's the problem. We need an emerging middle class in these countries, and we're not getting one. So now is the time to have labor and environmental standards attached to trade agreements.” He said, “You're totally wrong. I can't disagree with you more.” I said, “How would you address the problem?” I haven't heard back. You have to deal with this problem. It's a serious problem.

JOE KLEIN: What if they say no?

HOWARD DEAN: Then I'd say, “Fine, that's the end of free trade.”

JOE KLEIN: What do you mean, that's the end of free trade? Then we slap tariffs on these countries?

HOWARD DEAN: Yes.

JOE KLEIN: So you'd be in favor of tariffs at that point.

HOWARD DEAN: If necessary. Look, Jimmy Carter did this in foreign policy. If you can't get people to observe human rights, and say that we're going to accept products from countries that have kids working no overtime, no time and a half, no reasonable safety precautions-- I don't think we ought to be buying those kinds of products in this country. We're enabling that to happen. I'm serious.

http://www.jfklibrary.org/forum_dean.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=46131&mesg_id=46131&page=

Social Security

The actions of this President and this administration are threatening the soundness of our Social Security system and of our private pension systems as well. By creating the largest deficits in history and adding irresponsibly to the federal debt, he has given Americans worried about their retirement even more cause for concern.

As President, I will be committed to preserving the integrity and long-term stability of the Social Security Trust Fund. I will oppose privatizing the Social Security System. And I will pursue a responsible economic agenda, and under my plan we will never have to consider raising the retirement age.

The long-term future of Social Security and financial security for all of us in our retirement years depends on ensuring a healthy rate of economic growth over the next several decades. Even a modest increase in long-term growth rates will ease the burden on the Social Security Trust Fund. If we do need to bring more money into Social Security, then I'm prepared to look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes.

The best guarantee for our Social Security, therefore, is an economic plan with three basic principles:

First, we must create economic growth and jobs new jobs, more jobs, and better jobs for Americans;

Second, we must return to fiscal sanity, for the sake of future generations, yes but also for the sake of our very national security. We cannot be a world-class country if we are the world's largest debtor;

Finally, we must reform our tax system. When I am President, I will work to repeal the top heavy Bush tax cuts, and replace them with a system that is fairer, and simpler, and places less of a burden on working Americans who live off their paychecks.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7343

Medicare

For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

The plan will cost an estimated, “$88.3 billion”. This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to “185% of the poverty level” (currently, $16,613).

For the “capitalist” half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived “a significant tax credit” to cushion the costs. The current “employer-based system” in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that “federal workers and members of Congress” have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive “business tax deductions” as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.

War on Iraq

RAY SUAREZ: And I'll begin tonight's questioning with Governor Dean. The United States is now trying to get help from the United Nations in the form of a resolution to internationalize the mission in Iraq. How much decision-making power can the United States share, while at the same time urging other countries to share the cost and share the risk of being there?

HOWARD DEAN: Well, as you know, I believed from the beginning that we should not go into Iraq without the United Nations as our partner. And in this situation, fortunately the president is finally beginning to see the light. We cannot do this by ourselves, we cannot have an American occupation and reconstruction. We have to have a reconstruction of Iraq with the United Nations, with NATO, and preferably with Muslim troops, particularly Arabic-speaking troops from our allies such as Egypt and Morocco.

We cannot have American troops serving under United Nations command. We have never done that before. But we can have American troops serving under American command, and it's very clear to me that in order to get the United Nations and NATO into Iraq, this president is going to have to go back to the very people he humiliated, our allies, on the way into Iraq, and hope that they will now agree with us that we were wrong to go--excuse me--that they will now agree with us that we need their help there. We were wrong to go in without the United Nations, now we need their help, and that's not a surprise.

Governor Dean?
(Speaking in Spanish)
We are spending more than $4 billion a month in Iraq. Do we send more troops?

HOWARD DEAN: Look, I think the most important aspect and the most important quality for any chief executive when they're executing foreign policy is judgment.

I supported the first war in Iraq because one of our allies was invaded, and I thought we had a responsibility to defend them. I supported the war in Afghanistan; 3,000 of our people were murdered. They would have murdered more if they could have. I thought we had a right to defend the United States of America. But in the case of Iraq, the president told us that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were about to make a deal or were making a deal. The truth is, there are more likely to be people from Al Qaeda bombing Iraqis and Americans today than there were before Saddam Hussein was kicked out.

Secondly, the president told us that Iraq was buying uranium from Africa. That wasn't true. The vice president told us that the Iraqis were about to get atomic weapons. That turned out not to be true. The secretary of defense told us he knew exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were, right around Tikrit and Baghdad. That turned out to be false as well.

As commander in chief of the United States military, I will never hesitate to send troops anywhere in the world to defend the United States of America. But as commander in chief of the United States military I will never send our sons and daughters and our brothers and sisters to a foreign country in harm's way without telling the truth to the American people about why they're going there. And that judgment needs to be made first, not afterwards.

We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops, as they should have been in the first place, not American troops. Ours need to come home.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/debate03/part2.html

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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Follow the money: "Free trade has benefited Vermont a great deal." DLC.
n/t
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. TLM was right. You don't really want an answer. NT
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Look, I'm answering you, but if you want to leave, good night. n/t
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. I'm not leaving, but if you want to be deliberately obtuse,
have fun. I'm not playing.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
70. Yep he'll ignore 99.99 percent of the quoted information...

then grab one line, and distort it out of context to try and bash dean.


See he never expected a real answer, and since his post was bait and not a serious position statment, he had no response. All he could do was the same distort & bash BS.

Besides, like I said no answer given would have been suficient, no matter how well it negated his claims or addressed his previous request. He doesn't want answers or information... he wants flames and disruption.

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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Republican machine IS evil
And if you can't see that, you need to remove your nose from the DLC's collective asses.
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. if we want to say it, or if some liberal talk show host wants to say it
that's fine. But he's the spokesman of the party. He can't be using words like "evil" and "hate" when referring to the opposing party (which reminds me he's used "enemy" instead of "opposing" when refering to Republicans in the past as well). If he does, it will completely overshadow anything he has to say about any issue we hope to make inroads on. The republicans won't answer to his claims, but will instead, with help from the media, voice indignation over being called "evil", "enemy", etc. It muddies the message and provides Republicans, and the media, an easy out.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
80. argggghhhhhh
Which leaves democrats dancing in pink tutus playing nice and hoping that if they just continue to play nice the mean mean rove machine will stop ripping them to shreds.

We got sandbagged once on Dean, and we got Kerry who was a legitimate war hero who played nice and ran an honest campaign and spoke about issues that mattered and lost to the idiot shirker who still can't explain where he was when he was supposed to be serving his country in the safe tang position his daddy got him, who presided over the two worst intelligence failures in the history of this nation, a twisted creep who lied us into a fraudulent war, a corrupt liar who led a raid on the national treasury for the benefit of the wealthy that has underminded the economic future of this country, and a generally lousy economy. Kerry lost to that mess, but he played nice. So he gets two points and a gold star, right?

I'd prefer to go down fighting, thanks. I have had enough of playing nice.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good for Dean! We've played the stupid maintain the status quo crap
now haven't we?

It was the GOP that made antiwar and environmentalism dirty words...I see you want to maintain their efforts.

I WILL NOT participate in the appeasement of the immoral, unethical GOP any longer.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
17. Wow, congratulations your second anti-Dean post of the day
Your first post today took his quote out of context and so I wonder about this one. Yes, lets play nice with the Republicans.
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. what context is necessary
if he says "evil republican machine", what's he supposed to say next to placate his comments, "but I respect them" ... ? There is no context needed for this kind of vitriol.
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. Do you disagree with what Dean said?
If so why?

If like myself you believe that "the evil Republican machine " is indeed an evil republican machine why shouldn't that be pointed out loudly and publicly every chance we get?

If you think that sort of rhetoric scares away swing voter my response would be that being meek and polite hasn't worked so well of late. Let's try saying what we mean for a change. I don't think we can do much worse than we have been.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. Oh look, another poster scared of offending Repugs
:eyes:

RL
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
29. Could someone please remind me what being centrist won for us?
Let's see, being pro war didn't help, being repub lite didn't help.

Not criticizing a popular war president didn't help.

Hey why not try being liberal!
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
34. Yeah because saying outrageous things screws you politically
After all, we saw what it did to Bush.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Well, it helps when your own party members don't turn it against you-
especially during the primaries, using words like "unelectable."
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
81. for example
Dick Cheney can tell Pat Lahey to "go fuck yourself" in public on the floor of the senate and that is ok and nobody in the rethuglican hierarchy says boo and the media does not have a 24/7 cow over it and it goes away.

Dean 'screams' and democrats are falling over themselves to stick a dagger in his back before he actually dies from the all out media assault.

Yeah we is real good at being an opposition party.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
38. The truth is not the problem, here.
The problem here is those Democrats who would hold it against Dean when he tells it like it is. Every time they do that, they undermine our cause.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Let's just say he has a knack for losing friends. n/t
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. So they undermine the whole party just because they don't like
Dean? That's petty, and very shortsighted.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Who the hell is undermining the party? They don't trust Dean, neither do I
so from where I stand they're saving it.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
77. They're saving it? The very same people who've been losing
elections for us for over a decade? That's hilarious.

Those who don't oppose the Republicans with every ounce of their hearts and minds are not doing this party any favors.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
58. Dean expresses himself in a blunt manner.
I applaud him.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Right, he bluntly praises Karl Rove and hates on half of America.
Please, somebody give the guy a talk show and get him the hell out of politics.
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. that's right
if Malloy says this stuff, it just makes for good ratings. If a party chair says it, it makes for PR disaster... I'm guessing that's why the media is so quiet on these latest miscues, he inspires plenty of controversy hence plenty of ratings for cable news and talk radio.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Huh? If what he said was all that controversial it'd be all over the media
24/7.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
82. Karl Rove gets his profs
He has beaten the tar out of us, fair or foul, since the 2000 campaign. Maybe we should learn why, huh?


Nah, lets just keep doing the same stupid thing over and over again.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
68. Who does?
Name one.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
76. Hey... with friends like you

who needs enemies?


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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #39
83. Let's just say with friends like you...
the democratic party doesn't need any enemies.
Hey, when Dean gets the nod for Chair, you can quit in a huff!
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
50. so, dems should grow a spine,
just not stand up with it? "compare Bush to Hitler by week's end to round it out" it works for me. about time somebody did.
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