Tell me again why a draft is bad?

[MikeG]

A draft will make it real.

It is easy to start a war with young men and women tricked into service.

More people will start following the news and caring about the issues.

But lets draft up to age 60. So everyone can go.

[FloridaPat]

1. Tell that to the 45,000 familes of the soldiers who died in Vietnam.

Or how about all the wounded from Vietnam? How about all the guys who are still living in tents in the forests because once home they never were able to "come home" again. War is not pretty.

Why not go all the way a couple of thousands of years - when kings went against kings and however won got the goodies. Yes, Bush and Cheney against the world.

[MikeG]

5. The only way to convince people that a policy is bad is to make it hurt.

[NYC]

8. It didn't "hurt" until the draft exemptions were removed.

People did not rebel until exemptions for college attendance were removed from the draft. Then, the middle class was seriosly affected.

[MikeG]

13. No deferments. All must serve. Even old people like me.

[AndyTiedye]

32. You Call That Fair?

Just seems like a way of killing off the old, the disabled,
and the clumsy (though they are likely to take others with
them in 'friendly-fire' incidents).

[MikeG]

34. Artillery kills most.

[Matariki]

48. hi, it's called 'irony'. i think n/t

[NYC]

35. That would get people's attention,

but you know it wouldn't work that way. It would start with deferments.

Only when people feel threatened, will they resist a draft.

Speaking of "old people like me", I can't imagine myself as a soldier. Good lord. What a way to lose a war. Draft old, injured, conscientious objectors. What a way to man an army.

[kypper]

88. I like that idea...

would increase Canadian immigration and reverse the brain drain. woo!

[Sympleesmshn]

92. What about me?

I messed up my knee last year playing football. My dad is retired military so I had a navy doctor. He took one look at my knee (patella dislocation) and said if I were in the Navy I would be lucky to be allowed to stay in. I have instability and they had to do major work on my knee. Now I am 17, would I get a deferment??

I want to serve just on my own terms as an officer.

[teakee]

98. My 17 year old son is just like you,

only his knee has been messed up since 8th grade football. The kid wears a brace even while swimming and he always fiddling with the brace--He recently told me he is he moving his knee cap back in place. What about him? Would they draft him?

This kid will probably end up getting surgery at some point, but we are poor--will the gov't fix him up so he can serve?

Did your knee cap end up on the side of your leg? It was one of the those "Mom is gonna pass out days..." The doctor was finally able to get back in place without surgery, but the knee is trashed. Sorry, OT--I know, but I just never have had chance to talk to anyone with the same problem.

I am interested in hearing about your injury and treatment. Thanks.

teakee.

[Sympleesmshn]

99. I was lucky I guess

I was wearing a brace when I got hit, I had had a ligament problem the year before, other wise it would have been worse. Mine was out of place by an little over an Inch out of place. It was no fun at all. It is a long story, but I would be happy to talk to you about it sometime, just PM me or email me.

[Warpy]

31. Johnson was able to ramp Vietnam into a holocaust

precisely because he had a peacetime draft and a huge military manpower pool.

And that, son, is why the draft is BAD.

[Gyre]

40. 58,000

http://www.historyinfilm.com/jacket/namkia/service.htm

It's a number worth remembering.

Gyre

[0007]

2. I think it would be great!

[Liberty Belle]

3. Leave my 18-year-old alone. I'm already oppposed to this war.

No draft--no way!

[MikeG]

7. Don't let them divide and conquer. We all should be fair game.

[Acryliccalico]

74. I feel the same. I have a 16 year old

NO DRAFT, NO WAY, unless they draft the wealthiest FIRST.:kick:

[tk2kewl]

4. I completely agree.

The whole picture would change over night with a draft. Especially if we draft people in their 30s and 40s. I think we can give the folks in their 50s an exemption (I am 39).

On edit: no exemptions except for serious medical conditions. PERIOD.

[Patchuli]

21. Thanks for giving us

'oldies' a break! Hell no, I wouldn't go anyway. I wouldn't pick up a gun unless it was to defend the turf beneath my or my loved ones' feet!

On edit? Fuhgetabout!!! When cavalier politicians who like to start
pre-emptive wars send their little sweeties and family for their causes,
then maybe the rest of us would think about it. This coming from an overpriviledged "Champagne Guard" jerk who couldn't even keep that commitment and went A.W.O.L. ??!

No way.

[tk2kewl]

39. If there were a draft of all ablebodoed males between 20 and 50

no one would have to go anywhere. there would never be war unless it was absolutely necessary.

[PeaceBWichU]

64. Why only males?

Is there a particular reason that you think only males are qualified to serve in the military?

[tk2kewl]

66. I guess I am oldfashoined. I open doors for women too and don't

expect them to open them for me.

[NuttyFluffers]

45. no exeptions period and you got a deal. including age, sex, and everything

i'd love to send most of the politicians who vote for this to go fight! :evilgrin:

the only exeption i'd allow would be: politicians who support (aka. voted for the war) and all executive and judicial members (along with lobbyists) must have themselves and their family members be drafted first. straight up revolutionary war, baby! wanna sit and pontificate about our founding fathers' you fat cat s.o.b.'s? prove your worth! join up and be ready to die for it!

it'd make war a defensive action only -- i can sure as hell guarantee that!

sacrifice everyone! everyone march to your death if you truly believe in war! mom with her apple pie better get like molly pitcher and pitch in in the front lines! it'd definitely stop empire flat!

[A Simple Game]

52. It was good enough for George Washington,

it should be good enough for George W.

Exactly, money (and feet) where your mouth is!

[despairing optimist]

95. The Dirty Dozen rides again! Draft Charles Manson!

Drug dealers, carjackers, pedophiles. No exemptions. Serial killers can offer lots of useful experience.

I think I'll pass.

[Sympleesmshn]

6. If we go into Iran the Govt will be stealing from the cradle

I don't see anything wrong with, but there has to be a good way to get out of it(be a cop, fireman, EMT, something like that for a few years), for people to get out of it. I am 17 and I think it is coming, and I will go as the 5 generations before me have, but I want to go on my own terms, Navy ROTC, no offense to any NCOs out there but I want to be an officer, and get college paid for before I go.

[PeaceBWichU]

65. Republican Government will steal from cradle, grave, everywhere they can

that is the problem.

[MichiganVote]

9. If you win the lottery, do you expect to sit on the money?

If there is a draft, do you expect the repub's to sit on the soldiers w/o going to war?

People die in war, horribly, wars are the miserable bastards of humans inability to realize all resources will be shared in one way or another. Even the dirt of one's buriel.

What issue is it that you feel is worth a draft/war?

[MikeG]

15. Ending this militarism.

[MichiganVote]

20. So you want a draft to end militarism? How does that compute?

[MikeG]

29. Its easy to send someone else's kids. Not so easy when you have to go.

My dad was drafted. So were all my uncles. I lost one in WW2.
How else will you build the support to stop the killing?

[CTLawGuy]

55. It took ten fucking years for Vietnam

to end, even with a draft.

The old people (seniors) who don't have to fight will still think the war is great, just like the older people during Vietnam who criticized the anti-war protesters.


A draft will not end the war.

[tgnyc]

58. The draft woldn't end war, it would limit stupid war.

Vietnam isn't a good guide because it took the country half a decade to realize it was trapped in a stupid war. In the case of Iraq, however, a huge chunk (maybe a majority, depending on what poll you looked at) of the country was so-so on the war from the start. If more of their kids had potential to be in harms way, the country would have been solidly against it. Even if I'm wrong, and the coutry was equally gung-ho on the WMD tip, after not finding any 18 months into the war, the country would have been calling for Bush's head.

It is for want of being forced to face reality that Bush's supporters can so glibly refer to themselves as a "faith-based" community.

[CTLawGuy]

67. you proved my point

'Vietnam isn't a good guide because it took the country half a decade to realize it was trapped in a stupid war."


And that's WITH a draft! The example of Vietnam refutes the idea that a draft will somehow foment opposition to at least stupid wars and make sure they get cut short.

If you start a draft today, a lot of innonent people, and many who opposed this war, will be forced to fight and die, and the sheeple will still believe it is a just war.

The only thing you would have succeeded in doing is increasing the death toll.

[deadparrot]

10. As someone who will be 18 within a matter of hours...

I'd just like to say that I was against this war from the beginning, and I'm really not all that eager to go kill "ragheads" in the desert.

:eyes:

[VolcanoJen]

60. I work with many young men and women your age, deadparrot...

... and I'm so thankful that I have yet to meet one willing to kill a "raghead" for their country.

[goobergunch]

97. As somebody who will be 18 on the 15th of June this year

I concur wholeheartedly.

[DemDogs]

101. Happy Birthday! Now go register to vote (n/t)

[whistle]

11. The children of the rich like George W. Bush get to avoid....

...serving in combat and suffer no short or long term consequences. The poorest have to serve and pay the ultimate sacrifice, while the honorable (like John Kerry) serve, perform heroically and still are smeared by the very people who dishonored and avoided military service. The draft is not fair and can not be made fair, their will always be ways to avoid it and the rich will be able to avoid the risks of defending the country and will always profit from war. It's a bitch!

[DemDogs]

12. Can't well-off young people get angry about this . . .

without having their necks on the line? You don't want a draft in order actually to draft, is that right? You want one so that people will start to care.
And no, drafting 60 year olds doesn't make any sense. It's not just their lives at risk if they don't react (or their body doesn't) when a platoon needs them to.

[MikeG]

14. Its too easy when other people are dying.

[The Sheik]

16. I dont see why we cant look at voter registration roles...

and draft Bush voters first (55 is the age limit and people with serious medical conditions, being overweight isnt one of them.) If we drafted Bush voters, then we would have plenty of people to fight and it would teach 'em to consider the consequences of being pushy in the world.

[MikeG]

17. My point exactly.

[Laurab]

26. Indeed - that would be the only fair draft

At least in a war of choice. Not a red-state one, but a pro-shrub one. I knew what I was voting for - so did they. Since they wanted it, they should get what they voted for.

[me b zola]

37. Rupub only draft

Everyone else, purely volunteer.

[Dookus]

47. Voter registration roles

don't tell you who somebody voted for. That information is secret - in fact, it's unknown. There's no way to find out how somebody voted.

[Mountainman]

18. Well, the draft took people like me when I was 19 yrs old.

Trained me to kill, sent me to war, covered me with agent orange, sent me back home where I wasn't a hero to anyone. Helped me become alcoholic and a drug abuser, clinically depressed, divorced, bankrupt and homeless. Well I got over it after 20 years so let's do it to somebody else's kids.

[MikeG]

24. I'm 46 and willing to go if drafted.

[stevedeshazer]

38. Knock yourself out, fella

Just don't try to tell me that sending my kids is a good thing.

Forget it.

[driver8]

61. No kidding -- don't let the door hit you on the way out!

I served six years in the military and I am proud of my service. However, there is no fucking way I would ever serve for these chickenhawks and this criminal action they call a war. Not only that, but my son certainly won't either.

You are 46 and you would serve if called? You may get a chance to back up that statement, sir...ridiculous as it may be.

[July]

63. I second that. nt

[MichiganVote]

96. Why wait? Go now and experience what you want others to go through

[Patchuli]

28. Well-put

Maybe some of these pro-draft folks should remember history because
I'll be damned if my kids are going to repeat it.

[BOHICA06]

19. The Officer Corps has not been trained ....

and cannot be trained in under 5 years how to manage an draftee army. Drafts are great for creating Joe Snuffy ground pounders, but to get an effective technically trained soldier and even more importantly a professional NCO, it takes longer than the standard draft-period enlistment.

You have the most effective, responsive and trained Army in history - doing the most with the least, why screw it up now just to add to the body count?

A Draftee force is great for mass and mass often wins, but it also gives you more dead soldiers .... not a good trade-off.

[leesa]

22. I understand and agree with you, but it's bad for those with children at

risk who have never approved of this illegal war.

I do understand your point though and I agree..it will be the ONLY thing that touches the warmongerers.

We need to somehow focus on getting a movement going that drafts the Bush twins, and the Pundits kids. This will finally shut them up. I think this push needs to come from the military and vets since they have the patriotic corner on the market in the fake patriots minds.

Do you think the Iraqi veterans against the war might take up this challenge?? SHAME these jerks into giving their kids to the war effort

[DulceDecorum]

23. "When You Care Enough to Send the Very Best,"

you start off with five Supreme Court Justices,
a Brooks Brothers riot-squad,
a passel of Republican congressmen,
and then you work your way down to DINOs like Zell Miller.

[Castilleja]

91. There ya go.........

To really make going to war hard on those who make these decisions, make sure those who make the decisions go along to personally lead the armies into battle.

[forgethell]

25. Actually, it's easier to

start a war with a draft. Think "vietnam". then you don't have to go to the trouble of "tricking" anyone. Just call 'em up.

[LizW]

27. Because there's not a chance in hell it would be fair

Your kids and my kids would go and the kids of Senators and Congressmen and CEOs wouldn't. It might eventually turn people against this imperialistic war of choice, but not before many sons' and daughters' lives are wasted.

[AndyTiedye]

30. BECAUSE IT GIVES ** AN UNLIMITED SUPPLY OF CANNON FODDER FOR HIS CRUSADE

The way it is now, if he tries to give another war, nobody will come.
That is the only thing stopping him from invading Iran, Syria, Venezuela....

If he is given the power to conscript citizens at will, he will abuse
it like every other power he has been given. He'll mobilize half the
country to fight his Crusade, and the other half to run the police state.

YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE BOOSH** THAT KIND OF POWER! REALLY!!

Yes, it will hurt. A lot. It will make people really unhappy.
But it will give * so much power that he won't have to care anymore.

[pityfriend]

33. On NPR the other day

someone mentioned that the military won't want to propose the draft because they'll have to deal with whether to draft women and whether to draft gays. Makes sense.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

36. A Draft *is* bad. Rangel introducing a Draft bill is good...

...that's exactly why he did it. I hope that this is the genesis of your thread.

In case anyone thinks that Charles Rangel (co-sponsored by several other Dems, including the admirable John Conyers) really wants to institute a draft, then you are not paying attention. Seriously.

This has been discussed before. While I understand the DU deserves to offset its costs, I truly think that the site should allow {frequency limited} Search capabilities to people who don't have gold stars: that way, they can find the historical discussions.

[A Simple Game]

54. Rangel also wants to preempt any draft bill introduced by the

Republicans. A draft bill sponsored by the Republicans would most likely not be fair to all, and offer many exemptions for the privileged.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

102. An excellent point, ASG. I wish others would understand this. n/t

[lastknowngood]

41. OK I own your ASS you do as I say you have no choice I can

take your present and your future even your life and I don't even have to pay you unless I want to. I can come into your home abduct you force you into training and send you off to kill anyone I please and If you live long enough then I'll let you go home with mental and physical problems for the rest of your life. And I don't even have to say thank you.

If that's not enough then your really F*cked up in the head.

[fnottr]

42. because I'm 20, and done with school in a little over a year

I agree that it would cause some people to wake up and start paying attention, but I don't want to be sent to Iraq or Iran or wherever to fight Bush's immoral and illegal wars, nor do I think anyone else should have to go.

[A Brand New World]

43. As the mother of a 23 year old son, I definitely do not want a draft!

1. As a family, we do not support this illegal invasion of a sovereign country. And more than likely, more sovereign countries to come.
2. There are some people who are not psychologically able to be in a war. I know - war is not pretty. But realistically, there are some people who are more suited than others. My son is an artist, sensitive and caring and has never killed anything in his life, not even a mouse. I'm serious that he'd be mentally damaged if forced to kill another person. You may as well ask him to commit suicide as kill someone else.
3. I would be against the draft even if I did not have a child who would be affected.
4. The pro-war Republicans should be the ones to enlist.

[Zensea]

44. Despite my ambivalence, you have a point

I posted this in a couple of other of these threads but it bears repeating I can see reading through these responses.

It is an aberration that the past generation has not dealt with a draft.

Is it a coincidence that the "me generation" phenomenon started around 1975 right after the draft ended?

To all the posters that are thinking about their own skins, I say you have to stand up for your convictions. If you're really against war and you are taken up in a draft, you resist. That's what conscientious objection is all about. I was a conscientious objector in Vietnam, I didn't run away. I went through the process, I got 1-A-O status. I started planning how to do so when I was 12. Never too early to think about such things. If they hadn't given it to me I would have gone to jail. That's what conviction is about. That's what people like David Dellinger did in WWII.

edit to add some other names --- Thoreau, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Muhammed Ali

[fujiyama]

46. Blah

All this crap about teaching a lesson will simply increase the misery - that too for many that never really supported this unjust war.

Forget it. I'm not interested in going. I'm not interested in playing cat and mouse in avoiding the government in serving. I'm also not interested in going to prison because I don't want to serve.

If the shit hits the fan, I'll leave...And if not to Canada, then elsewhere. I'm not dying for bullshit reasons.

[Dookus]

49. I agree with you Mike

a no-exemption draft would bring about a drastic change in our policies.

[Matariki]

50. i think i get your point - or maybe not

we should all be out in the streets everyday protesting the unjust and illegal war being waged in our name, but most of us aren't motivated because we don't have anything immediate on the line. Probably why they're hesitant in reinstating the draft.

[A Simple Game]

57. I remember having the draft hanging over my head

like a lead weight back in the late sixties. I lucked out and came down with severe anemia, which gave me a 4F status. And yes I was very lucky because my number did come up.

From my point of view, and age, I agree with both sides of this argument.

On one hand, even a "fair" draft is unfair and can and will ruin lives even if not fatally.

On the other hand, knowing what a draft does to a person and their family's point of view, I believe that yes a draft can prevent a war.

This is not only about this war, it is about any future war some dimwit with too much power may want to start.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

51. People still wouldn't care.

They are too fucking stupid, wouldn't even know if they were being shot at.

[high density]

53. Because even though my job sucks...

...getting drafted would be an even worse "job" or "duty" ...

[zulchzulu]

56. Who goes to war? The poor, the lower middle-class... Who pussies out?

I think you know the answer.

However, if the Repuglicans want to start a draft for their kids (who must love Hannity and saying shit like "Freedom isn't free" or adore Rush Limpole's admiration for Bush's "honorable war"), then I'm all for it.

Let's make it that if you support Bush and the PNAC War, you will stand by your conviction and "help him out".

If you voted for Bush, your child gets to get in front of the line. What could be more honorable?

Put your money where your piehole is, freepers.

[LittleClarkie]

59. We don't want it to get worse

We don't want the economy to tank.

We don't want more war or a draft.

We don't want more poverty.

We don't want Iraq to fail.

We merely know they will, because everything Bush touches turns to shit. And we are having trouble doing our job, which is to prevent Bush from mucking these things up, because many people aren't awake, and it may indeed take another war or a draft or another attack to wake folks up.

Sadly, we may end up, despite best efforts, observing as the country sinks another several notches lower, and more people suffer, and more people die. It sucks out loud that we are awake to see these things but may not be able to prevent them.

But to hope for such things to happen is just wrong.

[allergygal]

62. Hmmm... draftees vs volunteers....

You'll never get the level of committment or training out of someone who is forced to go that you will from someone who volunteers to go. I know not everyone in the military still wants to be there, but by and large, it is a very committed force. Adding people into the mix who don't want to be there (or in the military at all) is dangerous and should never be anything more than a last resort.

[Sparkly]

68. Obviously

But how close are we to the "last resort?" Four things tell me we're pretty close:

1. The stop-loss orders
2. The level of overseas deployments of National Guard
3. The outsourcing to private businesses of tasks the military could be doing (although there's a profit motive here as well)
4. The administration's complete lack of effective diplomacy, zeal for "spreading democracy" in the middle east, and recent rhetoric about Iran.

[ThorsHammer]

69. I can see what you're saying, but still disagree

I would have no problem serving to actually defend the country, but want no part of nation building and guerilla wars. Your point that the draft makes things real is valid, but IMO is way too much of a sacrifice to make. I'd rather prevent, or de-escalate wars rather than sending thousands more to the battlefield. The end goal of avoiding pointless wars is great, but the means are simply too great a cost.

[FromTheLeft]

70. I want something a bit more drastic...

Not a draft, but manditory service time for all citizens ages 18-22.

This does something a draft does not. I makes sure that no one can avoid their time. It means everyones children go. Responsiblity across the board.

The Bush twins would just be finishing their tours of duty. Every rich kid from Beverly Hills to the Hamptons about to graduate high school would be gearing up and getting ready to go. You think all that funding would still be going to Bush and Co. if he was, not just could be but was, sending the children of the top 10% right along with those of the bottom.

People, young and old, do not care about what goes on in our government to today. We have the worst voter turn out in history because people feel that who runs our government doesn't really affect them that much. This makes it affect everyone. There would be NO unsupported war.

[Zensea]

72. that kind of approach could possibly stop the draft

know what I mean?

I bet a lot of people who would support a military draft would not support national service. They could get caught in the contradiction of this and it could get tied up in committee forever.

[Emboldened Chimp]

71. I'm opposed to a draft, but I see your point. However....

...it could backfire. Say Rengel gets his bill passed. It'll go to the Senate where he'll have no control over the outcome of the bill. Then it goes to committee, which the republicans control. And we all know that they are notorious for stripping language in the dead of night. Rengel's bill could get passed by both the House and Senate to great fanfare, then stripped of pertinent language at the stroke of midnight. Then we'll be stuck with a bill that Rengel didn't intend and we'll have a draft that protects the rich and well-to-do. In the long run, this could be a bad, bad thing. The only good that could come out of it is a popular uprising, but the effects of one would be limited.

[FromTheLeft]

73. That is why manditory service is the way to go n/t

[Emboldened Chimp]

78. But that's my point...

Chimpy and the republican leadership would trumpet mandatory service, but there will be provisions that protect certain groups of people buried deep inside the bill. They've done this kind of thing before and gotten away with it. What would stop them with a draft?

[FromTheLeft]

79. Because mandatory service is very different from a draft

There is no way out, and those who find one would be looked at as lepers. Societal outcasts who have no right to any opinion because everyone else gave their time and possibly risked their lives.

[welshTerrier2]

75. the draft is a terrible idea

the argument in favor of the draft is primarily that instituting a draft will give people a personal stake in what policies the government pursues with its military ... i think to a great extent this is TRUE as far as it goes ... there's absolutely no question that many young people during the Vietnam war became more politically active because they could have ultimately been forced to serve against their will (or suffer the consequences if they refused) ... so that seems to be the essence of the pro-draft argument ... i agree with its goal of getting more people involved with objecting to the abusive use of the American military ...

HOWEVER, there are two additional factors to consider ... and this is what leads me without hesitation to oppose the reinstatement of a draft ...

first, there's the obvious horror of being conscripted into a violent invasion of another country (e.g. Vietnam, Iraq) when the policy is not to protect this country but rather to promote hegemony and a corporate agenda ... after the invasion of Iraq successfully destabilized the oil markets, Exxon Mobil just reported record profits primarily due to very high oil prices that were the direct result of instability in the Middle East ... i can't imagine giving Exxon, Halliburton and Bechtel the legal authority to force me to go fight for their greedy objectives against another sovereign people who never attacked the U.S. ... what freedoms are left to American citizens if our very lives and bodies can be taken away from us and put under State (i.e. corporate) control ??

and second, just from a practical point of view, there is no evidence that a draft and its resultant energizing of a protest movement would be sufficient in size or power to alter government policy ... suppose, for example, that they only have a draft to add say 40,000 more troops to the American military ... that's an average of only 800 per state ... while that is not an inconsequential number and others, e.g. family members or other potential draftees, might join a protest, it remains to be seen whether the evils of "forced military service" would be offset by significant, effective gains in the protest movement ...

sometimes you do have to take risks to make progress ... but gambling with the lives of innocent people to have a chance at altering the government's military madness is not a risk i'm prepared to support ... the objectives are excellent; the proposed method of achieving them is not ...

[FromTheLeft]

77. Please see my post #70

With mandatory service it places our leaders under a much higher level of scrutiny.

Right now 55% of our population votes for our most powerful position, and far, FAR less vote for our senators and congressmen. It's as if 45% of the population is say whatever, my life will go on unchanged.

With mandatory service everyones lives change. From the rich to the poor. They would no longer be able to vote for leaders who promote wars with out sending their own children to fight.

The rich and connected would not be able to pay for exemptions or send their kids to college to avoid their time.

Those who run to other countries are no longer citizens and are considered deserters if the returned.

No more cushy posts for political friends. Everyone starts at the bottom and those who show themselves worthy move up. No names just id numbers and ratings determine placement.

For those four years we would all be equals. We would be forced to look at each other in ways that we as a country have never looked at each other before.

Picture this. Montgomery Allen Stafford IV from East Hampton standing next to George Willis from the backwoods of Mississippi standing next to Michelle Walters from the Plains in Kansas...etc all doing push ups at 5 in the morning. Learning to rely on one another. Learning that we are all Americans no matter where we come from economically, socially, racially, sexually...etc.

It would change the dynamics in this country. I would force us all to remember that while the American Dream is one of personal success the American Promise is one of equal opportunity.

We are all in this country together it is time to start remembering that.

[welshTerrier2]

81. education: slower but safer ...

first, i assume when you talk about "mandatory service" you mean mandatory military service ... so Peace Corps, or whatever they call it now, helping in hospitals or doing Aids work in Africa or cleaning up oil spills etc. would not qualify as service ... do you mean mandatory "military" service or just mandatory service ??

second, i really don't like the idea of allowing the government to own the bodies (and lives) of its citizens ... while I greatly appreciate your egalitarian objectives of levelling the playing field and giving every citizen a personal stake in federal policy, or at least federal military policy, I think the price you're asking is much too high ...

again, even with everyone in the entire country serving in the military, and those who are serving would have much less right to protest, only the number needed to fight wars would be selected ... just because you force everyone to serve wouldn't guarantee that everyone would be expected to serve in a war ... it's unclear that once in the military, you could control whom the military selected to fight in a war and who remained behind ...

the bottom line is that I don't trust the government's use of the military and I don't want to support a non-voluntary system that forces Americans to serve their greedy objectives ... while I appreciate your idea that making everyone serve might at least to some degree temper their evil stupidity, I think there's a danger that more who object to their policies would be forced to serve them ...

i guess i take the view that it's better to try to teach people not to burn themselves than it is to burn them so they'll support the message you're trying to convey ...

[noamnety]

86. Mandatory service wouldn't work

1. There would still be champagne units of kids that get paper pushing jobs in nice suburbs, and kids that get sent to war. We all know it, there's no use pretending it wouldn't happen.

2. Job skills would suffer. You can't take years off from some skilled training and just return like nothing happened. A ballet dancer who takes off a few years in their early 20's is nearly done for. People peak in some physical jobs in their early twenties, you can't just eliminate those jobs are options. Someone who was specializing in foreign languages who doesn't use it for years forgets it - they can't just waltz into a college class and pick up where they left off.

3. Some young adults are single parents. Who raises their children? Not all have family that is able or willing to do it.

4. What happens when women get pregnant to get out of service?

[earth mom]

76. A draft would force people to wake up & see the kinda shit that * is up to

but even with the kind of draft that Rangel is proposing-no exemptions-just watch the mass exodus of 18+ offspring of the rich rethugs-to europe and elsewhere-no doubt about that-the bastards.

[FromTheLeft]

80. Those who leave are deserters and therefore no longer citizens...nt

[earth mom]

84. Yeah just like * who was awol and deserted his duties during war...

oops...nothing happened to him. No doubt these well connected rich rethugs will find a way around that little problem too. Though it is their war after all and they should be the ones to fight it-bastards!

For the rest of us-I wouldn't blame anyone on the left who took off and fled-go for it! Why die for a lie?!

[bowens43]

83. complete bullshit.

if you think for one moment that the children of the rich and powerful will be put in harms way then you are naive.

Rangel is a fucking idiot.

[bowens43]

82. not this ridiculous shit again.

If YOU don't know why the draft is bad then perhaps you're on the wrong website.

Keep your fucking war mongering hands the hell off of my children

[earth mom]

85. Sorry about your kids, but this is the reality because few are signing up

Most of us on this website don't want a draft-damn it we don't want this f-in war!!! But-the writing is on the wall and all of us need to be prepared for it.

If it comes down to the fact that I have to leave my house empty and just take my family, the dog and the clothes on my back and leave this country then so be it.

[beyurslf]

87. The draft should be for Republicans only. We should be exempt. We didn't

start this mess.

[rniel]

89. yes we need a draft

just my opinion.

We're having our cake and eating it too. We're in a war, but most people are not making any sacrifices for it. My boss loves this war and has a 17 and an 18 year old. I wanted to bring him some sign up forms for them to go into the army, but I want to keep my job.

[Castilleja]

90. They might also just decide to go along with things

because (insert persuasion here). I bet people will just accept it like they have accepted everything else so far.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

93. Everyone getting drafted would sure shut the freepers up........

....and if you could prove you "conscientiously objected" to the war, the bulk of those going would be them. Let's see them wave their flags then!

[Martin Eden]

94. BAD ... really BAD ... BECAUSE:

Draft = more U.S. troops = more war.

Too many on the left have got it backwards. They think the draft will spur resistance to U.S. militarism, when the opposite is more likely true: there will be no draft without significantly increased public support. Right now it's a political non-starter.

If sufficient public support materializes, it will be because there's been another major attack on U.S. soil or a war overseas that requires American intervention.

There won't be a draft without some really BAD developments, and if there IS a draft you better believe we're going to be sending a lot more of our young people to kill and be killed in foreign lands.

Would you like to see the developments that would make a draft politically possible? Are you really in favor of a draft that would feed more of our citizens into meat grinders like Iraq?

Not me. I'm not going to support a draft when I actually want the opposite of what it enables. Don't lend your political support to something that is ardently desired by warhawks who are politically savvy enough to not push it themselves right now.

[Grey Ranks]

100. Why I support a draft

It isn't about the War.

How many people will die? How many will die now if wait, if we engage in a guerilla war decades long? How many will die if we end it quickly?

Common sense tell use we want as few soldiers to die as possible. Patriotism tells us we want as few Americans to die as possible. But, does it matter? Who dies tomorrow, an American, an Iraqi? It was still some mothers son. Compassion tells us we want as few people as possible to die. That is what the draft is about. Not the war, the end of the war. It is about humanity.

I suppose a lot of people will go if there was a draft. A lot of people will die. They will return, but with one less arm, or a burned off face. Maybe they won’t get injured at all. Maybe they will kill, and learn to like it. Maybe they will come back and have chronic insomnia. Maybe they will come back a hollow shell, walking but unable to feel.

And the draftees will be the poor, the minorities. Those who couldn’t get out of it because they couldn’t afford college. It won’t be fair. It will not be just, but what is more just? A dead soldier, or a child of war? A nation growing up with such violence, war their only existence. How can you build a society when you see charred and mutilated bodies in the streets?

I am in the military, and have not gone to Iraq. I want to. I want to end the war. I haven’t even been there but I have it. This will be my sacrifice, to engage in such evil. That I may be able to end the war one day sooner, have one less house bombed, or parent of sibling killed.

There is one thing all the military commanders agree on, the need for more troops. The only way to get more troops is a draft. To end this war we need a draft. I support the end of the war, I must support the draft.

Any those draftees will go there, and will pay with their lives for Bushes crimes. War is great responsibility, and we cannot fail. Whether we agree or not, this is simply the way of things. Unfortunate responsibility given to ALL of us by virtue of Democracy.

If we do fail, all the sacrifices to this point been in vane. We will leave a nation that will be divided by in-fighting. How long will it take for civilization to return to Iraq? How many more on all sides, and sides unseen, will die if we do not win, and soon? I may not know the number of dead it will cost, but it is enough.

[Martin Eden]

103. More troops will not end the war sooner

Rather, more troops will enable the Bush neocons to expand their theater of operations.

Their militarism is a beast that we should be starving, not feeding.