I am sickened beyond belief at the disgusting attacks on Dean's character!

[KaraokeKarlton]

Dean doesn't even drink coffee, let alone take drugs or drink alcohol. He is NOT mentally unstable, nuts, maniacal or angry. I am so disgusted with this country and all the ignorant reporters and people who are repeating this nonsense.

This is the straw that breaks the camel's back with me. It's Democrats who have started this and it's the most disgusting behavior I have ever witnessed. If Dean isn't the nominee, I'm done voting. My feet won't darken another poll as long as I live. What's the point?

:puke:

[Walt Starr]

1. Welcome to the fourth way, Karaoke

The Fourth Way: telling third way Democrats what they can do with their third way.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

11. Good one, Walt.

And good luck on the webpage!

[Walt Starr]

17. Thanks, It's a work in progress

I'm only going to put some sample chapters up. I'll take the completed work to a publisher. Might as well cash in.

:D

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. Well, when we get stuck with another 4 years of Bush

I'll make sure to thank those Democrats who helped him win. No wonder so many people are leaving the party. I'm a swing voter and even if I didn't support Dean I would be totally turned off by what I'm witnessing. It's deplorable, disgusting and pure hate-filled. There is so much hypocrisy in the Democratic Party it's not funny. They're no different than the GOP when push comes to shove. They're all dirty, evil, conniving, greedy, power grubbing bastards. I see no difference between them at all...just a bunch of hot air filled windbags who lie through their teeth just to get elected. Con men, nothing more. This is why people don't vote. Democrats have given me yet one more reason to stay the fuck home.

[library_max]

33. "I'll be sure to thank those Democrats who helped him win."

That'd be the ones who didn't turn out to vote against him, right?

Your post reeks of "Look What You Made Me Do." Take a breath. Dean still has raised more money than any other candidate, and his support is nationwide. He is very far from out of the running. Iowa doesn't mean all that much, and I say that as a Kerry supporter.

If you're disappointed and angry, you have a right to be. People have taken cheap shots at Dean; but hell, people have taken cheap shots at every candidate who has a chance (and some who don't). That's the nature of the process, sad to say. Politics ain't beanbag, as Misther Dooley said.

Just give yourself a little time and don't commit to anything. Dean will probably be back on top pretty soon. Please remember that the people you're vowing vengeance against now are the people you'll want to support Dean if and when he gets the nomination. And then remember that that works both ways.

[redqueen]

36. Well said n/t

[Walt Starr]

40. I'll vote against Bush

AND whomsoever the board of Driectors at Corporate decides on to run against Bush.

[library_max]

124. Which is as much as to say you won't vote at all.

You might as well write in your own name as vote for anybody else.

[redqueen]

2. Great example of cutting off your nose to spite your face

Good luck with that.

May your children forgive you, if Bush wins a second term, and we lose what little is left of our democracy.

[Walt Starr]

20. Give us a break

We aren't willing to accept whatever pablum the Board of Directors over at Corporate decides to shove in our face as a sacrifical lamb this year simply because they stick a (D) behind the name.

[redqueen]

38. I feel the same way sometimes

But then I think about BBV and revert to ABB.

Sorry if I was terse (I wish I wrote what library_max did), but think about it: we could very well lose our right to vote if Bush wins again. This may very well be your last chance.

[Walt Starr]

42. I doubt that

seriously.

In real life, Bush is nowhere near the monster painted on internet messge boards and blogs.

He's hopelessly incompetent, but let's recognize the rhetoiric for what it is.

[redqueen]

50. I do.

He's a puppet. I kinda feel sorry for him sometimes, because he's obviously in way over his head.

But do you doubt that BBV is a very real danger, and that those that are perpetrating this scam are GOP operatives? If we don't get the GOP out of power, I still think this very well could be our last somewhat-real election. They lost the last one but managed to steal it... if they can avoid happening again, that don't you think they will?

[Walt Starr]

64. My answers

But do you doubt that BBV is a very real danger, and that those that are perpetrating this scam are GOP operatives? If we don't get the GOP out of power, I still think this very well could be our last somewhat-real election. They lost the last one but managed to steal it... if they can avoid happening again, that don't you think they will?

Speaking as a software insider I'll put it this way, the BBV companies are also hopelessly incompetent. I honestly do not believe they built in security lapses with their software. They are out to sell product under a tight schedule in an area that's basically wide open. There has been a mad scramble to become the number one player in a new field.

It's not some deviant plot to steal votes, it's a poor business plan to make money that never took sound software engineering principles surrounding secutiry into account.

[redqueen]

100. Before I read "The Power Elite"

I would probably have agreed. Now, though... things are not looking good. Not at all.

Just one point to consider: how many electronic voting machine manufacturing companies are tied to Republicans? The latest one to join the game is a damned weapons manufacturer!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

106. Many Seniors are saying that this is THE most impt election of their lives

Shame on you for being so flippant.... These are Republicans AND Democrats who say they are truely frightened at what this country is turning into.

[KaraokeKarlton]

Know what, I don't give a shit

The Democrats are no different than the Republicans. They are all owned by special interest and lack the balls to stand up for the little people anyhow. They all suck. Dean is one of the few politicians who are in it for the people, not himself. If enough people aren't smart enough to figure that out and do the right thing, they deserve what they get.

My children agree with me. They won't even turn on the TV because they are totally disgusted with what they're hearing said about Dean. My 17 year old daughter said it's just as bad as the post 911 bigotry against muslims. She said, "Mom, what is wrong with Democrats? They sound just like all those idiots who wanted to kill all muslims the way they're going after Dean. It's pathetic." Perhaps you should be asking if our children will forgive the Democratic Party instead.

[redqueen]

44. Well God bless you for raising them right!

But I still have to say as long as BBV is a threat, it's ABB for me. I'd like the chance to vote again, someday.

I agree with you nearly 100%. On my bad days I feel exactly the same - why bother if we're just rewarding their bad behavior. But then I think about BBV...

If it's any help I think this whole speech thing is overblown and stupid. But it won't be the last case, no matter who's in the GOP-controlled media's sights. They'll do this constantly, and to whomever they have to to try to keep their lock on their money.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

78. You should post this in its own thread

Incredibly moving. I'm glad he helped you, and I understand a lot better now your passion for him. Thank you for sharing that.

I had a good deal of respect for Dean before. It just went up by orders of magnitude.

[KaraokeKarlton]

118. Good thing I took your advice

because the original got deleted.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

102. Those programs were NOT cut

Just because Dean knows how to adjust funding to make things more cost effective doesn't mean program cuts. It just means cuts in spending. When you have a governor who is as great at managing money and finding ways to get the most bang for the buck you CAN cut funds without cutting program services.

My daughter is right on the money in her comment. Hate is hate, Zomby, whether you care to admit or acknowledge it or not. Demonizing someone or a group of people is STILL demonizing, and Democrats do NOT get a pass on their equally deplorable behavior simply because they are Democrats. Bad behavior is bad behavior, and I am seeing the same hate fueled and unfair bad behavior directed at Howard Dean by Democrats as I saw directed towards muslims after 9/11.

So you don't like what my daughter said and now you are going to imply that I am not a good mother because I post on DU? That's scraping pretty low in the barrel. Aren't we supposed to attack the message and not the messenger? That would imply that taking pot shots at my child for having the ability to think for herself and taking pot shots at me for not liking what I say would be inappropriate and against the rules. You are out of line.

[Zomby Woof]

121. it was a sincere question

I applauded you for managing your time. I did not insult you, I was merely curious. I am at a loss on how that is "out of line".

I do not like what your daughter said, that is correct. I am quite sure the family of the murdered Muslim I referred to would agree. But I have no judgment one way or the other on your motherhood skills. I am sorry you took it the wrong way, but it was a sincere question that I am sure many other busy parents on DU would like to know the answer to, but I am more forthright than most people.

[redqueen]

103. To be fair:

We're talking about a 17 year old. A bit of melodrama is to be expected and IMO acceptable. I see her point, but she'll learn that no matter who's in the lead they will be shot at mercilessly. Perhaps someone could share some information with her about attacks Dean has made on others?

Anyway, another point: Zomby, Clinton balanced the budget yes, but he also employed some of the very same tactics Dean used. We have someone on this board who can give you some personal perspective on the cuts he made which were not so different from Dean's - check with Kanary for details.

[diamondsoul]

112. I second Will Pitt's post, KK.

Listen, just hang in there. You're entitled to be pissed and to express it, and don't even worry about people who don't get it.

Dean isn't a bad human being. I think (totally personal view here) that sometimes he isn't honest with himself about things and because of that comes off as dishonest over-all, but I think he's a decent human being.

He has moments where I think he could come back that he doesn't take and that always surpises me- the Sharpton attack was one of those, and YES it was definitely a reverse discrimination attack! He had an answer, and I swear I wished I'd had one of those earpiece feeds to him to get him to say it! LOL

I don't back him, but like I said, he's motivated you and that's good. Never let go of that because right now that's way more valuable than which of the candidates we pick. Don't let spite put you out of the fight because this one might be our last.

[goodhue]

69. "The Democrats are no different than the Republicans."

Think what you like, but this is not true.

[KaraokeKarlton]

76. How are they different?

Democrats are supporting the same worthless shit Republicans are.

[goodhue]

87. jobs & education for starters . . .

I pick John Edwards as a typical example. I'm not an Edwards supporter but his platform has little in common with Bush.

John Edwards has a plan to put America back to work, and create more opportunities for more Americans than ever before. George Bush believes in rewarding the wealthy, a few people at the top, not the work of the middle class, and during his Presidency, America has lost more than 3 million private-sector jobs. John Edwards has a plan to create jobs with a 10 percent tax credit for companies that keep jobs in America, a venture capital fund to bring jobs to those areas hardest hit in the Bush economy, new tax credits for working Americans to buy their first home, save for retirement, or save for child’s education. As President, John Edwards will end this president’s war on work.
http://www.johnedwards2004.com/economy.asp

John Edwards knows that a good public education can help a young person overcome tremendous odds and reach his or her potential. As president, John Edwards will end the shame of the two public school systems in America where the quality of education too often depends on the affluence of the neighborhood. That is why John Edwards has a comprehensive plan to strengthen our schools, support our teachers, expand after-school programs, and improve our high schools. He also has offered a plan called "College for Everyone" which would make college tuition free for the first year for every person who is qualified to attend a public college and is willing to work part-time. Because John Edwards was the first in his family to go to college, he will provide the leadership that is lacking in Washington to ensure that teachers can teach and students can learn.
http://www.johnedwards2004.com/education.asp

[Zomby Woof]

90. yeah!

Like Kucinich! That GOP clone wants single-payer healthcare and TOTAL withdrawal from Iraq!! FREE tuition, a Dept. of Peace, and helping the small farmers! That RW bastard!!! :grr:

[RetroLounge]

93. Well, too bad DK sold out to Edwards

I guess he's just another tool...

[Zomby Woof]

101. HAHAHAHA!!!

Sold out?? I know most Dean supporters are political neophytes, and that just confirmed it. DK would have to do something like take corporate contributions (which Dean has done) or waffle on the war (which Dean has done), instead of what is a normal and intelligent strategy in the caucus system.

But your snarky rebuttal is dead in the water, because you fail to defend how this intelligent move in Iowa makes DK a RW clone. His agenda has not changed one iota. The truth still stands: There ARE major difference between the two parties, and the difference between DK and the GOP confirms it.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamondsoul]

116. KK, you don't believe that.

If you did you wouldn't have worked and talked and fought this hard for Dean. You know better, and I believe that's anger and frustration talking.

Screw the dolts who can't see what's right in front of them.

[KaraokeKarlton]

119. But I do believe it

I always have. This is exactly why so many Americans don't bother voting. A few policy positions might be a bit different, but they are all (with a few exceptions) poured from the same mold and ultimately don't change anything to make the country a better place to live in. Like Dean says...the US government hasn't done much in the last 40 years. It's stagnant and in desperate need of change. Dean is the path to change. Apparently the Democratic party prefers to remain stagnant. :shrug:

[Blue_Roses]

122. oh, give me a break

you have said yourself that as your governor, he has made you so mad at times as well. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not too long ago Dean was on the front of Newsweek and Time as the "positive" candidate to beat. It was his to win, so he's gotten coverage from both angles. I like Dean and even moved in closer as he was getting the "positive" attention, however, like that other side of the coin, eventually it flips over and there is "another" side. It's bound to happen--to all candidates if they are given the press coverage that Dean has gotten.

I still haven't made up my mind and like alot of other people, I go back and forth. It's just not over, in fact it's just beginning. Keep your chin up. I love Bill Clinton and would vote for him tomorrow, EVEN with all the "negative" press I KNOW he would get.

This race is not about one man.

[Zomby Woof]

3. mental illness can strike anyone

Rich, poor, old, young, drugs or no drugs, alcohol or no alcohol...

I am not saying Dean is unstable, but if he isn't, it is not because of the argument you propounded.

[patricia92243]

51. If Bush doesn't have major mental problems, I'll eat this computer

[Zomby Woof]

63. we all know he does

But that isn't the issue, Dean is.

Bush's mental illness started from the day he was born, which also has nothing to do with his social status or the alcohol use he took up later in life.

As for Dean, all I am saying is I don't know. I will say he looked like a dumbass with that speech, but that is more a sign of poor judgment than it is mental illness.

[Cocoa]

4. there's not too much of that

mostly what I'm hearing is that he made a mistake with how he reacted at first to his big loss. I don't hear a lot of talk of him being insane, just that he blew it a little.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

Excellent point

Bush's real maniacal behavior will ensure record turnouts all over the country, I'll bet.

Still, this is not the time for making a 'statement'. Fer cryin out loud, our very right to vote is at stake!

[liberalnurse]

22. So, that makes it just fair and acceptable?

Does this come from the same chapter in American history where women who wear short skirts or who are not virgins are asking to be raped?

Dramatic as that may sound it feels the same.

[WilliamPitt]

27. Fair and acceptable?

Teach kindergarten if you want fair and acceptable. There's an old saying: Politics is a long, shallow trench where the whores run free and good men die like dogs. Such a situation was not invented solely to clobber Howard Dean. It has been ever thus. You should hear the crap theb Founding Fathers hit each other with during their campaigns.

Find another game if you want fair and acceptable. The point of this exercise isn't to locate fair and acceptable. It is to wrestle the whores to the mat and win the chance for fair and acceptable to be part of the equation. For my children, and yours, and theirs.

[PatrickS]

48. Oh brother

That has got to be the lamest answer ever.

"It is to wrestle the whores to the mat and win the chance for fair and acceptable to be part of the equation."

Reading your post, you seem to enjoy that more than anything else. I guess if everyone would be fair and acceptable, you wouldn't have much of a career, hmm?

[redqueen]

59. It sucks, but it's reality

And I enjoy politics too, but that doesn't mean I don't work to make it better.

FWIW, I thought that answer was pretty astute. Hopefully all the newcomers to the 'only game for adults' will learn the rules and be equally disgusted and work that much harder to change them.

[PatrickS]

71. Huh, that's not what I said!

Reread what I wrote

[diamondsoul]

114. Can't respond to the point so-

let's attack Pitt, right? Never occurred to you he's right? Never crossed your mind to say Hey that's true, Will, and good on ya for stating it, huh?

Spare me. Where's YOUR outrage at the mess we're in? I've seen Will's now where's yours?

[On the Road]

57. Will, I'm Surprised at You

I thought you were capable of outrage.

[WilliamPitt]

70. Jeez

500,000 words for truthout about outrage. Two books about outrage. A tour about outrage. Hours of radio about outrage.

I've got outrage pouring out of my ears. A side order of smart is also on the menu.

[PatrickS]

77. Exactly

If everyone was fair and acceptable Will Pitt wouldn't have a career.

So let's keep things ugly and disgusting...

[WilliamPitt]

80. Yep. It's all about me

or not.

[On the Road]

88. I Know That. It Seems Out of Character

[Rose Siding]

92. Oh brother is right!

Survival of the fittest? might makes right? Breaking! Evolution!

You embrace injustice rather than railing against it?

Think hard about the best among us *this* century. They get assassinated, one way or another. This is the system you urge to preserve? Pitiful!

And who *was* that clown who spoke of "better angels"?

[Maddy McCall]

45. I fail to see the connection you are making re women's history.

No way is there any connection.

[Rose Siding]

28. You forgot to thank her

Dean and his supporters response to him are part of the only reason the Washington candidates knew it was safe to grow any spine at all.

[WilliamPitt]

32. I'll take that as a truth

and say thanks. Clearly, that wasn't enough yet. But thanks are definitely in order.

[lancdem]

41. Very good point

[redqueen]

61. Thanks, yes

But are these guys complete morons or what?

How long ago was 2002? How many seats on the hill have we lost since the 70's?

Sorry, Dean didn't tip them off that it was safe, he FORCED THEM.

Thanks, Dean. :)

[Davis_X_Machina]

6. "It's Democrats who have started this"

I wonder who printed up the "Doubts about Dean -- Vote Kerry" yard signs in New Hampshire? -- I don't think it's Republicans

[ThirdWheelLegend]

23. I wonder who printed up the "Only Dean Opposed the war ..."

"ONLY DEAN OPPOSED THE WAR FROM THE START" Pamphlets.

Or the TV ad where he said "My opponents.... before they supported the war"

Was it Republicans who misrepresented Dean's own and others' positions?

As for the yelling speech, I could barely listen to it. Didn't scare me at all, just made me feel embarrassed.

TWL

[Jerseycoa]

49. lol

We get hit from every direction. We're an equal opportunity target for campaign black ops. :D

[RetroLounge]

96. Only Kucinich sold out to someone who voted

for the war...

Kinda puts a nail in your argument's coffin...

Nice Liberal Purity. Bah...

[diamondsoul]

115. And when did Kucinich

EVER claim to be idealogically pure and politically a non-player? Knock it off.

[eileen_d]

7. Take a media break.

Perspective helps. Character attacks are always going to be an ugly part of politics. And they always have been. (I've been reading "Party of the People" which is a history of Democratic presidential politics, so I have a clue)

[Renew Deal]

8. It's time to take responsibility for your candidate.

You are blaming everyone except the one responsible. No one told Dean to go out there like Randy Savage or the Hulk. He is the one who did that. What do you expect people and especially the media to do? Dean isn't being "gored." He went out there and acted like a lunatic. That's not your fault, my fault, or the media's fault. Unfortunately, Dean has now became a national joke.

His act wasn't only bad for him. It was bad for all democrats. He was the "front runner" of my party. That means I somehow support his actions. At least now I can say that he isn't my candidate. What if he was the nominee? How does that make me and all Dem's look? I think it makes us look angry, shrill, and unstable.

This is tough to take but here is the hard stuff. I thin it's time for people to distance themselves from him and everything that has happened. Let it all go away.

[1floridademocrat]

16. Its only

over the top if your a tea cozy democrat.

Which I guess you are.

The speech was for one purpose, to keep his supporters fired up, the crowd was ROARING.

*shrug*

This is just the expectations game "He came in third so he should act somber"

He didn't, it freaked people out who wanted Dean to act contrite, he DID congratulate Kerry and Edwards.

But I don't want a tea cozy democrat.. I want a fighter.. and I want Dean.

[Renew Deal]

24. I think you are missing it.

It's not about how people want him to act. He acted out of line. There is a time and a place for a lot of different things. There was no time or place for that hysterical rant.

Did you notice that he kept looking backwords at the people behind him. He was looking for approval. It was all very childish.

I want a fighter too and we have fighters in this race. Clark, Kerry, Edwards, Kucinich all represent us well. They are all fighters. They all fight a little different and for different reasons, but they fight for us.

[1floridademocrat]

37. There

was nothing "rantish" about it.

And it wasn't Hysterical either..

It was a fire up my people speech.

So I guess your a tea cozy democrat *shrug*

[Renew Deal]

53. Or your judgement is biased.

Mine is a little biased to. But I will tell you this. I first heard it on the radio live. I was like WTF was that? Then I came here and everyone was talking about it. Then I saw it. You can call me anything you want, but maybe you should look at yourself on this one too. Can you imagine new voters going to him?

[ant]

67. the daily show

covered this quite well, I thought. They showed the Dean thing and did the usual making fun of him, and then they pointed out that Dean was not the only red-faced loud one. They cut to Kennedy at Kerry's rally, and he was all red and yelling and what not. Of course, since there was no Kennedy Is An Angry Loon story already out there, people didn't jump on the incident and blow it all up.

People can blame Dean for giving those who perpetuate these stories more ammo - and I agree a smart politician would be aware of that, and it's probably good that Dean learns this now rather than later. However, I don't think that excuses those who have participated in this feeding frenzy. I was appalled at the MSNB reaction to Dean's speech. THEIR reaction struck me as over the top and grasping at straws, which made me even more surprised to see the exact same analysis on DU seconds and even days later.

The people who've jumped on Dean for this seem to have been anti-Dean before the speech, and they were just looking for the tiniest thing they could use to bash him with. This speech really wasn't a big deal. It wasn't a great performance, but it was also not at all the great fiasco so many seem to insist it was.



Edit because it's nice when verbs are all in the same tense.

[patricia92243]

9. You've taken the words right out of my mouth - I agree 100%. I'm almost

tempted to vote for a third party - but probably won't. I'm just too disgusted with my fellow democrats right now that I could choke most of them. Bah humbug!!

[ant]

10. just wait

What people seem to be forgetting right now is that this is not unique to Dean. Whatever the press does to Dean - and yes, I saw the Iowa speech and yes, I think it was blown WAY OUT OF PROPORTION the minute it ended - they're going to do to everyone else.

It'll be funny to see those who are jumping on the anti-Dean train all of a sudden rage against the media machine when it's their candidate's turn to have little faults and quirks magnified and projected onto funhouse mirrors.

All that being said, I'll vote for whoever's on the D line in November. You still have to vote, if only to get Bush out of there. Yeah, the process sucks, politicians suck, the media sucks, but GEORGE W. BUSH SUCKS THE MOST.

[wryter2000]

12. It is gawdawful, isn't it?

I have to say, though, that I thought the CBS Evening News coverage of The Speech was quite even-handed.

However you feel, we can't abandon our country to Bush. Rant and rail and scream about what the hatchet job that's been done to Dean, because you're not imagining it. But we can't lose our Democracy because we don't like the way our candidate has been treated.

[PatrickS]

60. "However you feel, we can't abandon our country to Bush"

So replace Bush with a Bush-lite candidate? Makes sense :eyes:

[KC21304]

14. Oh come on. If we Kerry supporters can withstand

all the crapola thrown at us, including the sex in the coffin stuff, I think you should be able to take what is being dished out to Dean now. I think you better go back and look at the cocky attitude shown here by Dean supporters in the last few months.

[JI7]

29. huh ?

"all the crapola thrown at us, including the sex in the coffin stuff"

not sure if i want to know but what is this all about? it might better if you use the private message to reply.

[Uzybone]

56. The Bull and Scones

or Skull and Bones rubbish that is paraded by some nutcases on here.

[FreeperSlayer]

15. So much for ABB!

Thank you Deaniacs!

[Walt Starr]

25. ABB is a myth

It has never existed.

[WilliamPitt]

39. Speak for yourself

The tens of thousands of people I met in New Hampshire and New York and Pennsylvania and Arizona and Texas and California and Montana and Indiana and Iowa and North Carolina and Colorado and Washington would argue with you, if you took the time to go meet them.

[Maddy McCall]

52. LOL.!

OMG please tell me that the recitation of every state in the Union is not another achievement for which Democrats should thank Dean.

Too funny, Will. Too funny. :-)

[Walt Starr]

66. Then I suppose you'd vote for LaRouche if he was the candidate?

:eyes:

Everybody draws a line somewhere in the ABB rhetoric. Let's call the rhetoric what it really is.

[WilliamPitt]

75. Well, since it would take an overt act of God to make LaRouche

the candidate, I'd say I'm on safe ground with Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Lieberman, Kucinich, Sharpton and Clark.

[Walt Starr]

79. So then you admit, there is no ABB

There is "Any of What Will Pitt Deems To Be Viable Candidates but Bush" or AOWWPDTBVCBB for short.

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

83. Erm...

ABB has always focused on the mainstream candidates. Always. Every second and from the beginning. People coming in to say "What if Rush Limbaugh were the Dem nominee" are deliberately missing the point to score rhetorical marks that are valueless. ABB has always been about the nine. I think you know this, and are skipping it deliberately. You're one to talk about internet punditry. Hope this is a chapter in your book.

[Walt Starr]

95. you are the one who included Kucinich

and LaRouch got more matching funds than he did, so that makes LaRouche a bit more viable than Kucinich.

[VelmaD]

110. What you said

I've been called a "legend in my own mind" before...but never a myth. ;-)

ABB BAYBEE!!!

[Jerseycoa]

55. ABB exists

for the vast majority of DU posters as far as I have seen.

[Walt Starr]

68. so the vast majority of DUers would vote for LaRouche were he nominated?

:eyes:

Where do you draw your ABB line?

[Renew Deal]

65. That's not accurate.

ABB is alive and well. Remember, Dean was one guy in the party. If he isn't qualified, we move to another guy.

[Walt Starr]

72. Unless you are willing to vote for LaRouche if he were to win

then ABB is a myth.

[Renew Deal]

89. Is Larouche going to be the nominee.

I would vote for any of the 7 left. Even Dean.

[Walt Starr]

94. He got more mathcing fund than Kucinich

Which makes him more viable than Kucinich.

[no name no slogan]

107. Money != "viability"

Kucinich has enough money to stay in the race until the end. He even said so after Iowa.

Having the most money DOES NOT mean you'll win. Look at what happened to Dean in Iowa. Or better yet, look at how Gore beat Bush in 2000, while spending $60 MILLION LESS than Shrub. Micheal Huffington in CA spent his fortune trying to buy a Senate seat, but he lost.

You don't need money to run a successful campaign. Wellstone won in 1990 by spening 1/10th of what his Repub opponent spent. You can win with grassroots support, a strong message that sets you apart from your opponent, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears.

Money may be good to have, but it sure doesn't make you viable.

[windansea]

108. is Larouche on all primary ballots? n/t

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

18. I know how you feel

not a single comment on Dean on any newscast I've seen for the last few days has dealt with an issue.

Dean is a great man who got this party back on track. whether you support him or not, you know that he deserves better than this.

I expect this pettiness from Drudge and the rest of the wingnuts, but the piling on by so-called democrats is disgusting.

when the rightwing media goes after your guys next, don't expect a lot of sympathy from us.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but if Dean isn't the nominee, I'm seriously looking at going back to Nader.

The juvenile behavior of certain democrats has made me question whether or not I want to be a part of this party.

[lancdem]

34. This happened to Clinton for more than 8 years

It's nothing new, believe me. BTW, I would hope you wouldn't vote for Nader because this country can't afford 4 more years of Bush. But the choice is yours, of course.

[welshTerrier2]

19. a non-Deanie totally agrees !!

let me say at the start that i'm supporting either kucinich or kerry ...

i have come to dislike many things about Howard Dean ...

BUT, i totally agree that criticisms of Dean's "a bit over-the-top" presentation after the Iowa caucus is nothing but a smear campaign ... Howard Dean is not some type of unstable psychotic ... he's a serious, rational man with great energy and many good ideas ...

i also am sickened by the piling on of, not just the press, but so many democrats supporting other candidates ... they are foolish to allow "one of our own" to be denigrated in this way !!! these unfortunate souls fail to understand that we need to build unity in our party ... and this is not the way to achieve unity ...

i commend Dean for standing up for us when most of the others were cowering under the weight of bush's 9/11 popularity ... i also commend Dean for bringing so much energy and so many new voters to the party ...

to those Dean supporters who are thinking of not voting because of the horrid treatment he's received from other democrats, i can only ask you to think long and hard about your choice to do so ... we cannot afford 4 more years of bush even if some democrats are jerks ...

[dreissig]

21. Vote for Democrats!

I made a mistake in 1968 and stopped voting entirely. Now that I've gotten old and mellow, I realize that I don't have to choose a candidate in every race.

When I go into the voting booth I go down a straight line, checking every box next to a Democratic name. Then I go through the list and "de-select" the unacceptable Democrats. I do not vote for warmongers.

Yes, we're going to have wars, most of them avoidable, all of them horrible. But I don't have to be part of them.

[meegbear]

26. If Dean isn't the nominee, I'm done voting.

Nice attitude.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. An Edwards supporter agrees with you.

The coverage of Dr. Dean's Monday night rally 'speech' has gone over the top; I watched it and saw it for what it was--- a 'rally the troops' speech. What disgusts me even more is the 'piling on' by supposed progressives here who are doing the same thing.

Dr. Dean may or may not be many things, but he is not a drunk OR mentally unstable, and I am sickened beyond words to hear the media and fellow Democrats suggest that he is either.

[markus]

81. It's the Wellstone Memorial all over again

Remember, the Republicans have great ideas, but tend to beat them to death. As campaigns, they tend to stick to their plan no matter what. If you remember that its like fighting the Soviet Army (we have initiative and maps, and they don't), then is doesn't seen so formidible.

[Cuban_Liberal]

82. Good point.

But it still bugs me to see fellow 'progressives' joining in the chorus.

[windansea]

31. another NBD rant?

"it's democrats who have started this"

you mean the other democrats who are competing for the nomination?? the one's Dean called bush-lite? ...or do you mean the democrats in Iowa who clearly rejected Dean as frontrunner?

I guess you think the only valid dems are those in the Deanocratic wing of the party.

[Zech Marquis]

35. the first impression is a lasting impression

Monday night was the first time alot of US voters had a chance to see Dean in action. And that's what made him look so bad. Do you know how many people have asked me,"do you think we want that crazy man with his finger on the nukes?"

Now there are times to joke around and act silly, but when you're asking to be handed the keys to the nuclear weapons codes...you can't be seen as being a loose cannon.. Especially after 9/11! No matter what Dean does from now on, that image and soundbite of him screaming Monday night is the first and lasting impression many people will remember. The man blew it--he'll be laughed right out of Virginia and all points South.

[bloom]

43. In Iowa

it seemed to me that the other candidates were finally getting fired up like Dean. Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt (unfortunatly the TV was panning Kucinich and Sharpton).

Dean was driving the anti-Bush, anti-war train since he was out in front. Now Dean isn't out in front so much and Kerry is saying he did the right thing in voting for the IWR.

Well - if that is the position of the nominee, I may be sick on election day, myself.



I will, of course wait and see. But I don't think anyone on this board should expect anyone else to lay down and vote for basically a pro-Iraq war, pro-Bush agenda president.

[mattgabe]

98. Are you kidding?

Sorry to be the voice of reason here, but Kerry has said, all along, that he stood by his IWR vote and many Iowans (74% of which opposed the war) voted for him anyway.

But that's not the point. The point is that "refusing" to vote in the coming election, just because Dean isn't the Dem nominee just shows how much it's all about YOU, and not the future of our country.

If you think the Democratic party is the same as the Republican party, ask yourself these questions:

1) Would Gore have appointed someone like Ashcroft as AG?
2) Would someone like Cheney, Wolfowitz, et al. be anywhere near the White House under a Dem. administration?
3) Would any of the current candidates have INITIATED the process that led to the Iraq war?
4) Would Charles Pickering now be on the Federal bench?
5) Would dissent have been suppressed by questioning our patriotism after 9/11?
6) Under a Dem administration, would our tax system have become so grotesquely unfair as it is now?
7) Would that atrocious, secret Energy bill have been put before Congress?
8) Would that joke of a Medicare bill have been signed into law?

Sure, if you boil down everything to 1 issue, the parties can sound the same, but that convergence is how the country is governed -- through compromise. The Dem candidates running in this race are all good men and would do a far, far better job in the White House than is being done now.

As for the "character assassination" going on toward Dean, give me a break. First, let me remind you of some things were said about Kerry: the politics of his hair, his wife's a shrew, he looks "French", etc.

Second, a lot of the criticism leveled at Dean has been based upon his record and his refusal to talk about it. He did make those comments about Medicare, etc. Now, he could've (and probably has) changed his mind since then but I think it's reasonable to ask him if has actually HAS changed his mind, don't you? As for his "anger", Dean seems like a passionate guy, which is fine, but that can come off poorly to some people. His speech after Iowa, for example, was probably great to rally the faithful in a closed room, but is that kind of energy appropriate for a national audience (seniors, for example)?

Just some stuff to think about.

[beaconess]

46. I bet THAT'll show 'em

[Guaranteed]

54. The DLC is alienating the Dem base.

That's just the truth. If they don't cut it out and start playing fair, they're going to lose a few million votes.

[WilliamPitt]

85. Like in Iowa?

Record turnout, but the 'base' candidate lost by 20 points.

[killbotfactory]

58. But he's not as evil as Hitler!

F*** you CNN.

[Cuban_Liberal]

62. LOL!

Potty mouth! :P

[markus]

74. Walt: Please consider the Real Fourth Way

The real fourth way is to go to your district or precinct caucus (yes they will have them in primary states) and elect a slate of delegates who share your views.

Get yourself elected chair or another post with voting rights on the state central committee.

Run for national committee.

Yes, I'm all for tossing the money changes out of the temple, but I'm not volunteering for the crucifiction/lions part, if it can be helped. And the only way to avoid that is to vote ABB.

The Clark dominated leadership of my state party behaved like children at the North Dakota J-J dinner. When people registered for the state central committee meeting, they complained there was only Clark material on the tables. So it was taken off.

When they showed up for dinner, the Clark-only stuff was back.

While they were all at dinner, someone ripped down all of the Dean signs around the Dean hospitality suite and put up Clark signs in their place.

Should I try to sabotage Clark for this? I've been tempted. It would be simply to pretty much make him an asterisk in North Dakota based on his jobs to India remark. If you watch Lou Dobbs or listen to NPR you'll know that call centers are also fleeing to India.

If you pull Microsoft/Great Plains and Maptech and all of the call centers out of Fargo, you have: Wall Mart.

But I haven't gone that route yet.

What I'm more focused on is: what can I do with these 100 or so new Dean voters/activitists to start to remake the Democratic Party.

In most places, it just too damned easy to get elected to party office for anyone to be complaining about the state of the party. And the Central Committee meetings are open. Ask the state party and your district chair to let you know when and where.

The way to take back the party isn't direclty through the White House. It's just on the same path. Dean losing the nomination doesn't mean and end to party reform or change in Congress. Dean himself said as much today.

The Dean candidacy only has potential as a reform movement if it is bigger than the 2004 race for the White House.

[Walt Starr]

99. No no no, that's the first way

which was dumped overboard long ago.

The second way was to appeal to the base, which got dumped by the DLC in favor of the third way.

So I'll stick with my new plan, the fourth way. The Democratic Party is deciding it wants neither Deans fund raising apparatus nor it's activists, which is fine. I don't think they'll win without these tools but they don't have to take them.

[On the Road]

86. A Potential Threat is Labelled an Unstable Madman or a Clown

when there's no other accusation that sticks. Unfortunately, it usually works. And the fact that the meme took hold without protest does mean the end of Dean's candidacy.

People today are told that John Brown was a madman. It was used against John McCain. Most recently it's being used against Hugo Chavez.

What sickens me is the number of Democrats who participated. Calling a candidate Republican Lite will not cost them the general election. Branding a candidate unstable will.

[ReynoldsWrap]

91. I happened to be watching

the news at a friends house (3 dem undecided, 1 indy Kucinich fan) when they showed Dean's speech again yesterday afternoon. Despite it being a 'rally the troops' type thing, it was obvious that there was a lot of frustration there. I think he let it get the better of him, and the 3 undecideds I was with were completely put off. This was before the newspeople said anything. I felt bad for him, it was a pretty crushing blow, but what I hated most was the contrast between Dean screaming (he does NOT have a good 'screaming' voice, he sounded like a mad teenage boy going through puberty) and just a couple hours later, a calm, serene GWB giving the (abismal) SOTU address.

Dean wasn't in the right frame of mind to be giving a speech like that, IMHO. Not saying he was crazy, drunk or anything of the sort, I just don't think he'd had the time to let it absorb and settle.

[ecstatic]

97. Yep. Currently being smeared on CNN for singing "Star Spangled Banner"

What is wrong with Dean?!

Yawn.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

104. Please do NOT confuse being "mentally ill" with a "lack of character"

I'm sure you didn't mean to be offensive with your post BUT as a mental health professional I would like to point out that just because a person is mentally ill does NOT mean that they have "character" issues ie. that they are dishonest, etc.

Personally - I'd trust many of my mentally ill clients over supposedly "normal" people any day. Some are the kindest, most genuine people I've known.

[Anwen]

105. I'm as mad as hell...

I just turned on CNN to see the headlines. They did a bit on Kerry's recent speech saying how he has the most experience to take on Bush. Then they show Dean, who apparently started singing the Star-Spangled Banner at his speech. The did commentary that it was "ODD" and compared it to his "ANGRY" speech in Iowa, saying that New Hampshire voters are basically thinking he is "OUT OF CONTROL"

Damn it...of course he looks out of control when they show small bits of his impassioned speeches and keep ramming those words in our brains. They didn't mention ONE issue that he talked about in his speech, they only showed his "odd" moment. I am almost shaking, it's just so unfair...

[diamondsoul]

109. But if you quit totally,

Dean loses twice over.

Think about why you support him- because he motivates you to act, right? Do you think Howard Dean would tell you to pack it in if he loses? Will he sit home on election day?

Shit. I know I'm not the person you need to hear this from because I've been an ass about Dean more than once. I still can't back him, but you know if he makes you ready to fight the good fight, then don't back down just because he isn't the one the rest of the country chooses, you know?

Don't quit just because you're fed up. If it helps at all, I love Kucinich dearly, and I believe in him the same way you believe in Dean- but when push comes to shove in November, Bush has to go, period- even if I don't are much for his replacement. I hate the way Kucinich has been treated, and I hate how Dean is being treated now, but this is one time we cannot afford to just pack it in and forget it.

[curse10]

111. Yep, it's the democrats all right!

:eyes:

[indigo32]

117. Sigh

it's really sad to see isn't it?

But not particularly suprising.

Whats really depressing to me personally is that while people are trying to score points for their particular candidate they are ignoring the larger picture. The lazy and biased media is once again going to ruin the Democrat (doesn't matter who) and crown King Shrub. But unfortunately too many here can only look out for the short term primary gain. I DON'T believe that they are all freeper infiltrators. I think that they are short sited and that vote suppression is a FOOLISH way to go about carrying out democracy even if it does win.

Look I'm not buying for even a nano-second that there is no difference between the parties, you wanna know who Repukes are? the Texas State Republican Party has their platform online. Go read it.

I greatly appreciate what Dean has done and is trying to do, I think he'd make a great leader, I think he does truly care, and I WILL support him to the end. But if things don't work... you better believe I'll be voting proudly for the Dem in charge. Think about it for a moment. Are all our supporters completely innocent? I think not.

[JVS]

120. I am sickened as well

[David Zephyr]

123. KaraokeKarlton, The Attacks Are Disgusting.

And orchestrated, too.

But, Governor Dean has lots of organization and supporters like you...and he has millions of dollars more than the rest of them, plus he's a great candidate.

So don't despair! :hi: