Reporter asked Scotty if ** believed in "thou shalt not kill"....

[Webster Green]

I couldn't believe it. Some reporter asked Scotty the Liar if the chimp believed in the commandment: "Thou shalt not kill", as it applies to the war in Iraq. Scotty the Liar looked flummoxed, and made some comment I didn't catch, and went to the next question.

[Dogmudgeon]

1. Umm ... who's "Scotty"?

--p!

[GCP]

4. Scott McCleland - Press Sec

I believe

[IrateCitizen]

5. Scotty McClellan, Bush press secretary (nt)

[0007]

43. ....we're not talking about junior pooch!

[IrateCitizen]

2. That had to have been Russell Mokhiber...

He runs a column called "Scottie and Me" on CommonDreams.org. He used to get regularly called on when Ari Fleischer was around, but McClellan usually manages to avoid him now.

[rainy]

3. I do not know who but I'll bet a million it was

Russell Mokhiber

[cthrumatrix]

6. shrub is a "cafeteria christian" he picks and chooses when to be christian

[bunkerbuster1]

15. the term is CHINO

Christian In Name Only.

[WMliberal]

7. there's always Leviticus to look to when cristians want to hate and kill

Full of lovely passages undermining the whole Ten Commandments thing.

[Roland99]

9. Well, that refers to Mosaic law...

Deuteronomy, Numbers, Leviticus, etc. are Old Covenant texts and don't automatically apply under the New Covenant (Jesus movement)

[WMliberal]

13. so much to choose from!

I like the expression "cafeteria christian." It's so succinct.

[WolverineDG]

17. if that's so

we might want to start pointing that out to fundies who want to put up copies of the ten commandments in public schools & courthouses. sit back, & watch the heads explode.... ;)

dg

[Roland99]

23. Exactly!! That's something I've said for a while.

If they want something up in schools, they should be fighting for the Beatitudes.

[Maiden England]

20. yeah, but that kinda shatters the whole anti-gay argument

PAC chritstians (Pick And Choose), otherwise known as having your cake and eating it.

[Hissyspit]

26. That Was The Old Covenant; Jesus Referred To The New Covenant

[recovering democrat]

8. Check with the religious right

If he is confused, perhaps they would benefit from this quote from a message I received from a serious conservative Christian - on this very subject. Boy, did he get me told!

The commandment to not kill is related to murder. Otherwise, the same God that said "Thou shalt not kill" would not have also commanded the government authorities to execute those who commit capital offenses. Neither would He have commanded His people to engage in warfare to execute enemies, as He did many times in the Old Testament. What are "peacemakers"? You seem to imply that peacemakers are passivists, people who wouldn't defend their country. Terrorists would love folks like you. It makes their job easier.

I was asking about the "blessed are the Peacemakers" verse too - perhaps it would be just as confusing???

[merh]

16. I am so confused.

Do they have this in writing?

""Thou shalt not kill" would not have also commanded the government authorities to execute those who commit capital offenses."

I don't recall reading that anywhere.

[recovering democrat]

21. Another version of this ignorance

No, they don't have anything in writing - and don't ever be confused by this craziness. They pick out parts of phrases in the Bible and use them for their own ends. Here is another one I received with this same message:

Read your Bible again and see how many times God told His government leaders to kill. Abraham (Isaac); Moses, Joshua, Samson, Solomon, Samuel (remember King Agag), David.
Then remember Jesus telling His Disciples to carry their swords for self-defense. Remember Peter pronouncing judgment (death) over Ananias & Saphira. Then Paul speaks of the right of Government to bear the sword (meaning to wage war and to kill criminals). It is you who needs to re-read the Bible and get a true picture of this subject. Christians who defend themselves are not committing murder. A nation that defends itself against an enemy who had attacked and killed its citizens is doing its duty and is supported by scripture. President Bush is a Christian leader who is defending you and all of us against an enemy who wants to kill us. Iraq included. Stop listening to the lies of appeasers who would allow your enemies to come after you and kill you. Thank God for the local policeman who is trained to kill to protect your life. Thank God for any leader who will defend our country (George Washington, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, F. D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush). Some did it better than others, but they all performed their oath as President to defend the nation. And thank God for all the soldiers who have fought in defense of their homes in all the wars that Americans have fought in from the beginning to now. Thank God for my dad who was wounded in W.W. II defending against a nation that had not attacked us but who was in league with Japan who did attack us. He fought against Germany at Normandy and was wounded in the Black Forest. Thank God these brave men and women did not believe the way you do about killing. Or you would not be free today to spout such ignorance on the internet.

I am just one person who has gotten really tired of this mess, and I reply to them. It is frustrating, but they are occasionally affected by being reminded that it is blasphemy to make such "interpretations" of the word of God. A very sensible preacher suggested I tell them that! I believe it is important to share this ignorance with others so you will understand just how these people think. Unfortunately, they will NOT go away if we just ignore them!

[merh]

24. Boy, does he have any cites to this trash he professes

or is he just making it up as he goes along?

Then remember Jesus telling His Disciples to carry their swords for self-defense. Remember Peter pronouncing judgment (death) over Ananias & Saphira. Then Paul speaks of the right of Government to bear the sword (meaning to wage war and to kill criminals).

Only thing about violence from Jesus that I can recall is the "turn the other check" comment and when he stopped Peter from attacking the servant of the soldier the night of his arrest. Didn't he put the ear back on that poor fellow and tell Peter to put he sword away?

Why do they hate Jesus?

[recovering democrat]

31. Bible Quotes

are not offered by these idiots,ever. They just know.

I have a whole collection of these and have really enjoyed replying to them. I use Bible quotes; they don't respond.

I don't know that the Christians hate Jesus; they just ignore him most of the time. They don't much like Thomas Jefferson either. I send these characters this Jefferson quote when they bring up Paul, which they always do!

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.O8)

[WMliberal]

37. haha. he can't even go for two sentences in a row without contradicting

himself:
"Christians who defend themselves are not committing murder. A nation that defends itself against AN ENEMY WHO HAD ATTACKED AND KILLED ITS CITIZENS is doing its duty and is supported by scripture. President Bush is a Christian leader who is defending you and all of us against an enemy who wants to kill us."

Umm, I totally missed that surprise attack by Iraq before we invaded. :shrug:
I guess he thinks "hoped and wished to attack and kill" is the same thing as killing.

[Cell Whitman]

28. here Archbishop Jensen explains the old and the new...

play "DVD" here and when it comes up click on "Holy Homosexuals" - the good Archbishop has all the answers.

http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/video/

[merh]

30. Who is Archbishop Jensen? What faith?

Thanks for the link, I will catch it tomorrow, dial up tonight is way to slow.

:hi: Welcome to DU! Enjoy the adventure!

[Canuckistanian]

19. Where does the Bible tell you to "defend your country"?

And why does it take precedence over a commandment?

[recovering democrat]

22. It doesn't

See my post #21 for allegedly where they get this justification, but if you care for accuracy, read the Bible itself and not these "interpretations". These folks have their own way of thinking.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. I think you should

remind your friend that when Jesus came and died on the cross he changed the laws in the Old Testament. To be a Christian means to be "Christ-like." Even when Jesus was taken away for his trials and his crucifixion he didn't fight back when he could've easily. When the man had his ear cut off he could've said "good job!" but he didn't me. The man got a scolding lesson. Don't these people ever study their Bibles?!

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Talk about spinning God's laws

If it says "thou shoult not murder" how much more clearer do you want? :crazy:

[qwghlmian]

35. In the original Hebrew the

commandment in question is "Al Tirtzach" - which means "Do not murder". The word "kill" is a different word in Hebrew. If the commandment was "thou shalt not kill" it would have been "Al Taharog" in Hebrew, and not "Al Tirtzach". Ask anyone who knows Hebrew to explain this to you. You are aware that the Bible was not originally written in English, right?

The "Thou Shalt not Kill" is a mistranslation.

[recovering democrat]

39. Yes

I am aware the Bible was not originally written in English. I am also aware that there are many phrases in the Bible that have been mis-used. I am usually fascinated by the Christian right's ability to ignore anything except their own philosophy, usually managing to avoid and ignore any New Testament material attributed to Jesus (in whatever language) on the subject.

However, is it your contention that "do not murder" is inappropriate to any discussion of Iraq?

I think the question is highly appropriate and it does apply to Iraq?

[qwghlmian]

41. It is highly misleading to ask someone

if "thou shalt not kill" applies to war. Obviously, war involves killing (show me one war where no one was killed) and obviously killing is against the "thou shalt not kill". If you do not mistranslate the commandment, and go by the correct meaning of "thou shalt not murder", then you can get into an argument about the rightness of the particular war, and the methods used in it.

So, if the question was "How do you think the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" applies to Iraq", it would have been an appropriate question to ask. As it was asked, though, it was a cheap trick and was ignored.

[recovering democrat]

45. Review original message

I think you may have taken my question wrong. The question related to the quote in the original message that started this thread, and not my own question.

[qwghlmian]

46. So was my answer related to that same quote.

It was an unfair and misleading question to ask, that was based on an incorrect translation of the commandment in question, and counted on the fact that in the context of a press conference there is no time to go into linguistic explanations.

[recovering democrat]

42. A different perspective

I am not personally familiar with actual Hebrew translations. I have always enjoyed a website that gives a different translation to yours - I will check out the differences.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/thou_shalt_not_kill.htm

from that site: The exact Hebrew wording of this biblical phrase is lo tirtzack. One of the greatest scholars of Hebrew/English linguistics (in the Twentieth Century) -Dr. Reuben Alcalay - has written in his mammoth book the Complete Hebrew /English Dictionary that "tirtzach" refers to "any kind of killing whatsoever." The word "lo ," as you might suspect, means "thou shalt not."

The site includes teachings of Jesus and the Nazarene Essenes. I also love this quote from The Gospel of the Holy Twelve , the most ancient and complete early Christian fragment. Written in Aramaic, the text includes the complete life and teachings of Jesus. The lections of this ancient Gospel set forth a much higher moral and spiritual understanding than what is currently taught by the Christian church.

"After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings" attributed to Jesus.

[qwghlmian]

44. Linguistically he is in a tiny minority -

if not the only one who says so. But look at it logically. "Lo Tirtzach" was given a loooong time ago. The Old Testament has dozens if not hundreds of examples of killings that occurred since the Ten Commandents were given that are looked upon with approval. If Alcalay was correct, and the original meaning was "do not kill for any reason whatsoever", the Bible would contradict itself too much. In fact, why go far - look at the episode that occurred immediately after Moses received the Ten Commandments - the "golden calf" incident. Moses killed three thousand men just a couple of days after receiving the Ten Commandments.

[WMliberal]

36. Oy vey. So, what then, according to his logic, should be taken seriously?

If he's saying that anything god says has asterisks next to it, then why is there such fervor about Leviticus saying homosexuality is an abomination? Shouldn't that have an asterisk too? Especially since it's not (literally) a life or death matter.

[ClassWarrior]

38. "as He did many times in the Old Testament"

But Christians - TRUE Christians - believe that Christ came to bring a NEW Testament, a new agreement with God's people, based on love, mercy, and grace. How many times did Jesus engage in warfare to execute His enemies? Or to free the Son of God from executioners, for that matter?? Ask your friend that...

NGU.

[recovering democrat]

40. We agree

This is the kind of point that I make every time I respond to one of these people. This is NOT a friend.... the point I was trying to make is that no matter what you say to them, they will never learn because they refuse to open their own minds to any other perspective.

These right-wing religious zealots move directly from the Old Testament (only in selected readings) to Paul, passing the Gospels and anything about Jesus as if it wasn't even there.

[Roland99]

10. Will there be a transcript of this?

:)

[moobu2]

11. Here's the website where it will be posted if they do.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/briefings/

[Cocoa]

18. it's up

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/02/20050201-7.html

Q Scott, last night, in an amicus brief filed before the U.S. Supreme Court, the Justice Department came down in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments in courthouses and statehouses around the country. The question is, does the President believe in commandment number six, "Thou shalt not kill," as it applies to the U.S. invasion in Iraq?

MR. McCLELLAN: Go ahead. Next question. Ken, go ahead.

[rainy]

12. If it was Russell, whom I'm sure it must have been, it will also be on

commondreams.org

[liveoaktx]

29. Vid clip

Bush and 6th Commandment

[Riding this Donkey]

14. has anyone or will anyone

ever ask him if:

He believes that Jesus loves all sinners

if he should Love thy neighbor as thy self

and many more i am sure!

please feel free to list!

[mattclearing]

27. Off-topic, but I love your username.

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

34. Yep

Someone should ask him that. Maybe it can be Barbara Walters! I think Bush and his followers forgot the golden rule, "love thy neighbor" and "hate the sin, love the sinner." :grr: Oh lol someone should ask Bush if his mother still likes Ozzy Osbourne. Back when Ozzy had a cd out and his popularity was rising again Bush had some conference thing or convention or something and I remember watching it. He was just rambling on and introduced the Osbourne's. They stud up and Ozzy did the metal sign and Sharon polietly waved. Bush said to him: "Ozzy, Mom loves your stuff." I wonder what his base would think of his mother liking the Prince of Darkness.

[Cell Whitman]

25. wooo wooo Yep, that's Russell.

I was wondering if he was exiled after his last question..

Notice Scotty didn't even acknowledge the question.

I still wish he'd answer this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1550928&mesg_id=1550928

__

from today..

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/02/2005020...

Q Scott, last night, in an amicus brief filed before the U.S. Supreme Court, the Justice Department came down in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments in courthouses and statehouses around the country. The question is, does the President believe in commandment number six, "Thou shalt not kill," as it applies to the U.S. invasion in Iraq?

MR. McCLELLAN: Go ahead. Next question. Ken, go ahead.