So, if Obama votes in support of Al "Torture" Gonzales it is ok cause he's

[propagandafreegal]

new?

How much slack are we going to give this guy??? I can't wait for the vote.

[Walt Starr]

1. If he does, I am ABO in 2010

and would never consider ever voting for the guy again even for dog catcher.

[stray cat]

34. I agree - Liebermann, Lott or Frist or the next Bush in line.

Anyone but a democrat who doesn't believe exactly like I do.

[Iggytop]

67. Obama is going to play it middle of the road.

that is the sad sad sad truth of it. He and Hillary. It is a SAD Thing to watch. I hope I'm wrong.

[mod mom]

86. No middle of the road on this one: NO TO TORTURE! inexcusable! nt

[genius]

43. I missed part of the hearings. Is Obama going to vote to endodrse torture

[quinnox]

2. NO WAY

If Obama votes yes on this one then it may be the beginning of a DINO career for him!!

[Padraig18]

3. He's been a senator for 4 freakin' weeks!

Maybe he's doing what the people of Illinois, rather than DUers want him to do, ya think?

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

6. Seems like he's doing more what wouldadvance things for

Mr. Obama than anything else to me.

[Padraig18]

12. Maybe he understands long-term consequences?

This whole 'No, you can't have the cabinet you want' strategy so many here seem so enamored of will come back to bite us FIRMLY in the ass when we retake the WH, were it to succeed. I'll trust him to do what he thinks is right.

[Walt Starr]

23. So what the fuck does voting "NO" do to stop that?

NOT A FUCKING THING, that's what. It makes a statement and sends a message.

Either the man should shit, or he should get the fuck off the pot!

[Padraig18]

30. Horseshit!

Anyone who doesn't agree with your position is 'on the pot', Walt?

:wtf:

[Walt Starr]

36. This man is "playing it safe" He's pulling a Kerry IWR

and not representing the people of Illinois.

[Padraig18]

39. Back that statement up.

Show me factual evidence that most Illinoisans oppose Gonzales' confirmation.

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

40. First show me factual information that most Illinoisans back torture n/t

You first.

[Padraig18]

47. No, thank you.

I didn't assert he wan't representing Illinois' interests, etc.--- you did.

[Walt Starr]

50. The interest of the Illinois people is that torture not become policy

and Gonzales pushed torture AS policy.

Ergo, voting for Gonzales is voting against the people of Illinois.

[Padraig18]

53. No, he didn't 'push torture as policy'.

It helps our cause not at all to play loose with the facts and the truth, Walt. What Gonzales did was what his 'client', Bush*, aksed him to do: find points and authorities of law to support a decision that he (Bush) had already made. That's what lawyers do.

[Walt Starr]

58. I get it

so you approve of Gonzales?

[Padraig18]

60. It's not quite that simple.

I believe the POTUS should get the Cabinet he wants, essentially, as has been the case for the 217 years of this republic's existence.

[Walt Starr]

65. Ahhh, so you DO support an advocate of torture being AG

I getcha.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[googly]

61. Exactly, Obama is for Obama, not what DUers want,

he has ambitions to run for president someday, and he
is not about to piss off a whole bunch of latino's by
voting Gonzales down.

Obama did not lose a single black vote by supporting
Condi, and he will do the same with Gonzales.

[genius]

70. He voted for Bush for Pres. He spit on the graves of the 9/11 victims

And now he wants our families and friends tortured. What a slime.

[Darkhawk32]

84. Obama voted for GWB????? n/t

[seventythree]

8. NO

[TeacherCreature]

9. So TORTURE is OK with you now?

What would qualify then for your disapproval?

Genocide?

When can or should we expect a Democrat to stand up for the fundamental American and human values that matter?

Never?

[JI7]

15. whatever

he said no such thing.

[Padraig18]

17. Nice staw man!

Unfortunately for you, i never said that. Thanks for playing.

[TeacherCreature]

56. Not directly. But that is the issue in the Gonzalez case, right?

I am merely putting to you that voting for a man who has endored or excused torture is the matter at hand.

And I am am still not sure how you would answer my broader question, which is--what policy or action by a nominee should or could "Cross the line" where a vote in support becomes unethical and/or immoral?

It is a valid moral and political question and is certainly NOT a "Straw Man."

[genius]

71. I hope those OK with not filibustered are the first to tortured.

It's poetic justice.

[JI7]

13. yup

i bet most of the state has no opinion on those votes anyways.

[Padraig18]

18. 95% of Illinoisans don't give a rat's arse about Gonzales.

:shrug:

[googly]

63. The ONLY people for whom Obama vote will matter are the

latino's. The rest could'nt give a rat's arse.

[Walt Starr]

27. You'd probably be right about that

although I'd say closer to 85-90%.

But it's the people who are most active who look at these things.

[Bjornsdotter]

24. No I don't ...

think that he's doing what the people of Illinois want, I think he's doing what Obama wants.

I keep bringing up Alan Dixon, the SAME thing could happen to Obama....one vote can really mess up your political career.

Cheers,
Kim

[ClassWarrior]

4. And if he doesn't this thread will have managed to bash him...

...without him having done anything wrong in the first place.

Tricky.

NGU.

[Walt Starr]

7. Fawning over Rice put me off

and I consider voting to confirm Rice WRONG!!!!

[ClassWarrior]

16. So since he did something wrong once, it's okay trash him...

...at every possible opportunity? Even as a pre-emptive strike? I don't get it.

NGU.

[Walt Starr]

29. Hmmmm, so far every time he's voted

he's come down on the WRONG SIDE.

So no, I'm not too fucking impressed with him. The Gonzales vote is the last straw for me.

[xultar]

28. It's a Black thing...I dont' expect lots of folks to understand. n/t

[Walt Starr]

38. WTF?????

:wtf:

I don't get it. Why bring race into this?

[xultar]

41. Why he eventually supported her. n/t

[Walt Starr]

46. I still don't fucking get it

He fawned over her. She's ideologically against everything the Democratic Party stands for and Obama played the fool.

I still do not get what race has to do with this.

[xultar]

69. Don't worry about it. n/t

[propagandafreegal]

44. I'm black and don't understand. nm

[BronxBoy]

62. Me Too

and I don't get it either

[googly]

64. But fawning over Rice did not lose hima single black vote.

[propagandafreegal]

11. The only reason I posted is due to the tone of his first two votes...ro

Even though new, he has set a precedent.

[ClassWarrior]

19. I'm sure he's voted on all kinds of things over the past few weeks.

Can you tell me about any of his other votes besides those two? Since you're basing your judgement on his voting record, you must know.

NGU.

[Walt Starr]

31. There have been exactly three votes since he took office

One in committee and two on the floor.

He was on the WRONG side on all three.

Everything else has been unanimous consent.

[ClassWarrior]

33. I was asking propagandagal, because her comments suggest she's an expert.

But she hasn't answered yet, so maybe I was mistaken.

NGU.

[propagandafreegal]

35. Some votes have more weight than others, IMO. nm

[ClassWarrior]

37. So in other words you don't know?

Or didn't till Walt gave away the answer?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

74. I guess that's my answer.

<crickets chirping>

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

75. So which vote would "weigh" more?...

Against Condi or for school lunches for kids? Euthanasia or abortion? A ceremonial bill to honor a brave first responder or one to allocate a couple hundred more dollars to environmental protection? Who gets to do the "weighing"? And where can I get me one of them scales to weigh Senate votes on?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

79. Do you hear the crickets chirping?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

88. kicking for an answer...

:kick:

NGU.

[LSparkle]

5. ANYONE (and that includes Obama) who votes for this guy

is complicit. If they won't filibuster that's one thing, but at least ALL Democrats should vote against him.

[quinnox]

26. Yea, and if Obama votes for him then time to start a RECALL

election of Obama!

We don't need any more DINOS like Salazar for the Dems!

[Walt Starr]

32. There are NO recall votes for federal office

The only way to recall a sitting Senator of Congressman would be to first amend the constitution.

[ClassWarrior]

76. So when are you gonna start a recall against that scumbag SMITH...

...in your own fucking state?? Or don't you remember who's the allies and who's the enemies? Or do you just like to tell other people what to do with their elected officials?

NGU.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. For being propaganda free....uh.....I'm just saying

[Dr Fate]

14. The GOP/media will Swiftboat Obama someday...

...and then all the Excuse making DEMS will say "But but- he was so nice & polite- he tried to work with the liars & criminals... he tried to do everything the media wanted him to do...its not fair..."

And then when Dr Fate sez "I told ya so" he will be called an "Obama Basher"...

The GOP/media will Swiftboat Obama someday- they are already planning it- hard to believe Obama does not see this.

[Bjornsdotter]

20. No it's NOT okay

Last week I spoke with his office on this matter....they would not answer if he supported Gonzales or not. IMO it appeared that they did know....nothing concrete, just a hunch the way the aide hesitated when I said that I would be very disappointed if he voted "YES" for Gonzales.

We'll see how it goes....but after voting for Rice, if he votes yes for Gonzales he may go the way of Alan Dixon.

Cheers,
Kim

[bush_is_wacko]

21. Did every one do their duty and FAX or call their Senators?

I did both and provided them both with plenty of reason to vote no. One is a despicable thug the other a newly elected Dem. The thug will do what he has always done and he will ultimately be voted right the heck out of office in 2006. The other as of yet, has shown no balls whatsoever and he may be targeted as well for his lack of authority on SEVERAL issues.

At least Obama has made MANY remarks which lead me to believe he has a firm grasp on these issues and he does not believe the administration has been forthcoming nor does he intend to let them continue to close themselves behind closed doors. My newly elected Senator has, as of yet, said nothing that leads me to believe he understands the implications of ALL these allegations.

I think Obama is a much better representative of his public than my states Senator and I also think he will continue to speak out and continue to get bolder.

[LSparkle]

22. Called and e-mailed

encouraging them to filibuster. Maybe it's just taking them a while to get the feedback from their constituents (???).

[bush_is_wacko]

59. Are you watching C-Span???

I have not heard a single Democratic speaker say anything other than that they will not vote for him. One inexplicably decided to not address the issue at all, but I didn't take that as a confirmation vote for Gonzales. He decided he'd rather get a plug in on the Dem's plan to flat line bushCos. Social Security reform. Since our media won't report it, I think he is perfectly justified in providing us with a "News Break" of sorts. They know we are watching. They have come prepared and they are putting on a pretty good show. Your guess is as good as mine whether or not they will filibuster, but my guess is they will!

[xultar]

25. OMFG!! How can we dump everyone? We won't have anyone on our side? n/t

[Vinca]

48. ??? We hardly have anyone on our side now.

I say we throw the whole lot of 'em out and start anew.

[propagandafreegal]

49. Maybe we have to clear all the BS out. nm

[Malva Zebrina]

42. He is not familiar with the game

and is trying to play it or is told how it is played by more "experienced" players.

I don't think it is a good idea to laud any person and to hang high hopes on them, groupee fashion, while never ever considering the situations or their political ambitions. We must discern if they are truthful or just playing the game. The belt way is an elitist club with unpublished rules and agreed upon approaches that seem to be totally ignorant of anything except the re run of the person.

A run is full of platitudes and PR management. We certainly will be fooled again as long as we hang sainthood on any one person. When Obama was interviewed on the Randi show, I knew he was aiming to be a respected memeber of that "club", first and foremost.

It does a great diservice to the people of America, when personal ambition takes precedence over the "right thing to do"

[NV Whino]

45. Geez. Even DiFi is against Gonzales

If Obama votes for him, he's lost all credibility with me.

[DARE to HOPE]

51. Obama will vote against Torture Guy,

I know he will.

[Edgewater_Joe]

55. ... but since he voted FOR Condi and AGAINST the OH fraud ...

... I'll wait for the words from his mouth.

So far I've been very, VERY disappointed in Obama. He was elected for being a progressive and was marching against the war in Iraq; so far he's voted in lockstep with Joementum Loserman.

If I wanted that I would've voted for Alan Keyes. At least he would've been entertaining while backstabbing us.

[NV Whino]

78. your screen name says it all

I, too, dare to hope.

[stillcool]

52. Anyone who thinks its okay to vote in favor....

of Gonzales...needs to have the cops, or better yet the feebs stop by their home for a chat.,

[libbygurl]

54. Same deal with Hillary C.... nt

[propagandafreegal]

57. Agreed! nm

[greyXstar]

68. His votes have been bad but...

Christ on a bike! They haven't voted yet friends! I agree that a vote for Gonzales equals a vote for torture, but let's wait until they actually vote before we crucify anyone.

That being said, I think that if Senator Obama (or anyone) votes for that cretin, they should be exiled.

Peace

[Cuban_Liberal]

72. He's voting against Gonzales.

http://www.dailyherald.com/mchenry/main_story.asp?intID=3838491

[tishaLA]

77. How dare he derail our thread

and all the threats against him?! He's just doing this so he can pretend to be on our side, but I know he'll get uppity again and disagree with us sometime soon!

/sarcasm

[Walt Starr]

85. He gets a reprieve from me, then

He gets the full benefit of the doubt now. All I asked was he show courage on one of four votes.

[xultar]

73. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!!!!!!!!!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

80. NO and NONE

[ElsewheresDaughter]

82. another 4 week newbie Salazar may vote yes for the Torturer Gonzales

[CWebster]

81. zero

I am still stinging from the last one.

[John_H]

83. It'sok because he scares the shit out of the gop so thoroughly nt

[IndianaGreen]

87. Let's see if Obama (and Hillary) vote in favor of torture

by confirming Gonzales.