If support for gay rights costs us another national election ...

[11 Bravo]

then so be it. I have often railed against what I perceive to be a "more ideologically pure than thou" attitude, as well as a total lack of pragmatism by certain posters to this forum. But, fuck it! The place for compromise must not lie in the realm of equal rights and basic human dignity. Once we cave on those issues, we are no longer Democrats; and the forces of intolerance and bigotry will have free reign. I don't want my sons growing up in that kind of country.

[WindRavenX]

1. bravo

We need to stand up for the ideals of the Democratic Party and not cave into fear and hatred.

[quinnox]

2. I'm of a different opinion

The gay issues should be underemphasized, this is how the Repubs beat us the last time, with all the gay marriage bans in the important states.

[ourbluenation]

3. Until every law abiding,

tax paying american receives equal representation under the law, including gay americans, then the issue should not go away, imo.

JTT
Loving sister of a fabulous american lesbian.

[11 Bravo]

4. I respect your opinion, but I find some things worth fighting for

with neither caveat nor compromise.

[janx]

5. So do you think that winning is more important than standing

for something like civil rights?

[quinnox]

7. I understand why gays consider this an important issue

but I don't think this should be one of the top issues for the Dem party. It's a niche issue, and an easy one for the republicans to gain an advantage from.

[Stand and Fight]

21. Interesting...

Democrats said the same thing about Black civil rights during the Civil Rights era... History does repeat itself. Hopefully principle wins out again in this debate.

[Hollowkatt]

6. But,

If we are to ignore the differences between us and the republicans, then why be different?? They are generaly speaking against equal protection under the law, unless they profit. The Dems, should stand for the "little" guy. That would be homosexuals.
This shouldnt be a thread, because, if we sell out, there is no going back. Ever.

[HomerRamone]

8. They STOLE it this time

and what I feel like saying to you would get this deleted, so I'll just ask if you would say that about blacks or women. That they deserve equal rights wasn't popular once, either (still really isn't but we'll save that for next time)...

[seriousstan]

13. So explain how we are going to push the gay agenda for the next 4 years

from the backseat. You are not steering this damn runaway car. We have been ducttaped and thrown in the trunk. I guess we can continue to mumble under the tape about how we are right.

[HomerRamone]

19. "the gay agenda"?

We're talking HUMAN RIGHTS FOR EVERYBODY, not a plot to corrupt your kid with show tunes or something like the fascists say...

[Stand and Fight]

23. Thank you! n/t

[seriousstan]

24. Fine, you pick the verb-age if you must, now try answering the question.

The discussion is not about "HUMAN RIGHTS FOR EVERYBODY" but rather about which of the myriad differences between us and the Reps that we should highlight. If you think we can only fight for the utmost perfection every time, win all or lose all, then you should get ready to lose.

[11 Bravo]

31. I started the discussion, and it is about "HUMAN RIGHTS FOR EVERYBODY'.

It just so happens that the total abrogation of gay rights is what the RW is currently trying to codify by amending the U.S. Constitution, and even rolling back existing civil union protections. They'll get around to the rest of us later if we don't draw a line in the sand right now. No mention was made of "utmost perfection every time". Your argument smacks of the tactics used by Sean Hannity and any junior high school debate team. Erect a straw man, then knock it down.

[seriousstan]

39. "If support for gay rights costs us another national election ...

then so be it." That is how you started this thread. So you draw a line in the sand and stand on the sidelines. Your words and choice, not mine. My point is you cannot enact change without influence and power. If you are willing to lose over any one issue then you are willing to remove yourself from the game.

Clinton won for 2 terms without standing on the sidelines stomping his feet because he couldn't get all of his views OK'd with the voters. He chose the issues he wanted to run on and HE WON! I, personally, think he pissed away an 8 year opportunity to drive home our issues. He even had a majority for the first 2 years and wasted it by letting Hillary become the focus of discussion.

Without the elected officials in place to change the laws we have no power. So if you are soooo determined to stand your ground even if it means losing any and all power......bring a chair so you can at least sit on the sidelines. Those of us that understand the system will be working from within. You can watch the game.

[seriousstan]

26. I take your silence as a failure to form an answer.

I guess some folk are only good at nit-picking and ignoring true substance.

[HomerRamone]

32. Seven minutes you gave me!

Sorry I couldn't solve the election problem that quickly. Some of us MULTITASK at the computer.

The answer involves paper ballots and more media presence to counter the Nazis of radio and Fox and the appeasers of the rest...

[seriousstan]

42. So you are pinning all your hopes on the idea we "really" won?

I guess the people that voted for the marriage laws in those 11 states were really votes changed in the machine. Beware of the majority. They are more conservative than you may wish. This discussion started with the statement that it is better to keep the gay issue forefront and lose than downplay the issue and perhaps have the opportunity to force change after we win.

[HomerRamone]

48. So move to the right, lose the left to the Greens...

and still not get the wingnut vote? Sounds like a dumb strategy if we "really" won. I'm not going to argue the merits of *legitimately* losing for support for civil rights because I don't believe it has happened or would...

[seriousstan]

49. Not move to the right, simply don't use this issue as our rallying banner.

There are plenty of issues we can champion during the campaign without having to have a divisive issue in the forefront. The opening argument was "this issue, do or die". I disagree.

[janx]

41. Are you kidding me?

Do you really believe that the majority of voting Americans are anti-gay?

Free yourself! We should all do the same. People in this country are NOT anti-gay, for the most part.

[seriousstan]

43. Explain the 11 states with their new marriage laws.

Besides the discussion started with the statement.....If support for gay rights costs us another national election ...


then so be it.

[dsc]

45. It is pretty hard not to come to the conclusion that the majority

of people at best don't care an awful lot about us. I think the people who hate us, hate us more than the people who don't hate us, don't hate us. And that is a fundamental problem.

[Stand and Fight]

22. Bingo!

You hit the nail right on the head!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. I like to live by the line, "You've got to stand for something, or you'll

fall for anything" and look at how far we've fallen. The day we underemphasize-or turn our backs on the gay/lesbian population who donate, support and campaign for us-is the day I say goodbye to the Dem party. I'm not playing their game. I happen to not believe in making myself more like my oponent just to get elected.

[Democrats_win]

11. Democrats need discipline. Mass. & CA marriage harmed Dems

and Gays without accomplishing anything. I dream of a world where two males or females can kiss in public without any adverse reaction, and children join the Joy Scouts rather than the homophobic scouts.

As it turned out, the media and hate-religion managed to use our enthusiasm for marriage into a jealous rage--a rage that should have been directed at conservatives, their foolish and illegal war and the failed economy crushed by irresponsible tax cuts.

All Democrats need to tone it down. Let the rage grow inside, put the right to sleep with our silence. Then use that rage to work to put Democrats who care about America into office.

[ScreamingMeemie]

12. I tried that. Now I'm opting to scream out. If we dream of a world

where gays and lesbians are treated equally then we must fight for it. We must get there first and frame the debate clearly. You won't see me shutting up and sitting down any longer. Tried that and lost every damned time.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. LBJ pushing the 64 civil rights act

through congress was the final nail in the coffin of the FDR coalition that had locked down Democratic Party national success for more than 30 years. Was that the wrong thing to do?

[bowens43]

20. So we are to win by becoming like those

we despise? No thank you. Better to lose standing up for our principles then to win by denying them.

[Just Me]

10. Gays deserve to have civil and human rights, too!!!

They are no more inherently evil or sinful than any other human being on the face of this earth and should NOT be targeted as such.

I am sick to death of the gay-bashing by control-mongering, power-grabbing, faux-benevolents. I really am. Homosexuals have simply become another target and it makes me sick.

This is one heterosexual lady who advocates that gays are human beings, too, and they deserve the same protections and rights we all are supposed to enjoy in this country!

[Hippo_Tron]

30. Gay bashing is not a family value, it's bigotry

We need to make people wake up and realize this.

[Mountainman]

15. I agree completely, who are we if we don't stand up for all the people?

We would be no better then the right who think only of themselves first. If the Dems became the "me" party then there would be no hope for those who have no voice.

We must hang on to our core values which are based on social justice and human dignity I think.

[Grey Ranks]

16. Gay marrige didn't losse the election

It is easy to blame others for our failures. We, democrats and the democratic party, lost the election. We all did our best. Our party did not. They were compeltely disorginized, they repated fatal mistakes of the Gore campaign. There is little orginization and no strategy. The democratic party lost the election all by itself and deserved to do so. But when they did they betrayed Democrats and the American people.

[latteromden]

17. I agree. I will never give up my civil rights for my party, or for ANYBODY

for that matter.

[bowens43]

18. I agree 100%.

No compromises where human rights and dignity are concerned. No drift to the center. We need to move our party back to the left. Compromise gave us what we have today.

[Rowdyboy]

25. For Christ's sake, in 2000 Gay Marriage wasn't anywhere on the horizon

No one was asking for it, no one considered it likely or even a serious question. Now its suddenly THE make or break issue.

Do we really want to demand that our politicians take a position that is anathema TO 55-65% of the public, depending on the state. Thats the perfect definition of political suicide. You cannot effect policy if you don't hold office, and you won't hold office if you push gay marriage. Not in the climate we face after Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. Hell, SpongeBob and Patrick get glares for holding hands! What hope do Michael and Steve have in todays climate.....

[Hippo_Tron]

29. We need to change the climate then

Otherwise Republicans will continue to win in elections that are "too close to call".

[Rowdyboy]

34. Easy to say as an outsider, but how does someone who wants to

run for office handle something like this?

[Hippo_Tron]

36. Depends on where they are running

I don't expect democrats running for office in the deep south to support gay marriage. Democrats runing for office in the liberal northeast and liberal California should, however. It has to start somewhere.

[Rowdyboy]

44. Of course! I strongly hope that progressive Dems will continue to push

for full rights. I just don't expect all members of the party to agree, nor do I feel it should be a litmus test issue. Job protection, civil unions, inheritance, and adoption rights-those are the issues I care about. Marriage is much over-rated. I'd prefer to pursue for some sort of contractural rights for same sex couples.

Screw their marriage, screw their system, screw their government-I just want to be treated fairly.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

27. I strongly disagree that support for gay rights...

...cost us* "another national election" -- I think that there were many other factors at play and that this issue didn't even make the political radar (gaydar?).

Apart from that minor quibble, I whole-heartedly agree with and support your post: the Democratic Party must not abandon any form of civil rights.

*The asterisk is to indicate that I am merely a sympathetic participant who identifies with many of your principles, but by not being American I am unable to vote in the last "U.S. Presidential Elections******".

******You know exactly what I mean by this string of asterisks.

[ultraist]

33. Support for gay rights DID NOT cost us the election. get real

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

37. Read my post again (or perhaps for the first time). Real. n/t

[Just Me]

46. The failure was equivocating on our stand that ALL people have civil and

human rights. That was the failure.

The Democrats MUST be convicted about rights which apply to ALL PEOPLE and point out the hypocrisy of those who would be so arrogant and belligerent as to believe they have a special right to choose which human beings deserve common rights and which don't with NO regard to whether or not those individuals contribute good works to this world.

[Hippo_Tron]

28. It doesn't have to cost us another election

Because it didn't cost Clinton an election. Clinton supported allowing gays into the military, something that was fairly new at the time. He won in an electoral landslide including four southern states. He put it perfectly when he was on the daily show.

"Democrats win when people think." Clinton got people who didn't agree with him on gay rights and abortion to actually sit down and think about whether he or George Bush would actually be better for what really matters, their economic future and their kids' economic futures. The people thought about it and sent the right guy to office.

Listen to or read his 1992 Democratic National Convention Speech. My favorite line is "I'm sick and tired of politicians in Washington lecturing us about family values. Our families have values, out government doesn't." He spoke to disheartened democrats who were tired of Republicans claiming that they were morally superior and at the same time he spoke to conservative leaning voters who had been fucked by the Bush economy.

This is what we need to do if we are ever going to win national elections again.

[dsc]

35. We shouldn't abandon gay rights

but we should lead with our winners. An overwhelming majority of people, even most conservatives, think gays and lesbians shouldn't be able to be fired simply for being gay or lesbian. A nearly equal majority think anti hate crime laws are a good idea. We should lead with these issues which by themselves will make a huge difference. Then we can go after marriage.

[Rowdyboy]

38. Incremental progress is not bad....those two issues are perfect places

to start.

America fought over racial discrimination for decades before the Civil Rights Act of 1963. Prejudice is shed slowly, unfortunately. But at least it is eventually shed.

[dsc]

40. I think ENDA would do more for the progress of gay rights

than just about anything else. People like me could be out at work without fear of being fired which would lead people like me to be out at work. That, in turn, would lead to people knowing gay people.

[ThorsHammer]

51. Agreed on incremental progress; what is ENDA?

[nevergiveup]

47. gay marriage is so terrifically explosive as an issue

The Repubs, in typical fashion , made this a wedge issue and worked it for all its worth. In an election this close any one issue could have made a difference. The 11% black vote in Ohio could well be contributed to this hot issue. I don't think the Democratic party or Kerry or Edwards or even the typical Democratic canvasser was prepared to deal with "gay marriage". Democrats talked in circles. It was OK that Cheney was pro-gay marriage but not OK for a Democrat to be so. The issue was a disaster for Democrats. At this point I do not think we should be screaming about this issue but I also don't think we should go "Republican-lite" or try sweeping it under the rug because it isn't going to stay there if we try. The Democratic Party has always been for the "little guy" and today our gay brothers and sisters are the "little guys" and we must defend their equal rights as American citizens and as fellow human beings. Hopefully the explosiveness of "gay marriage" has peaked and we can all settle down and get a grip. The 2006 Senate race in Pennsylvania will be our next real test. Will we be ready?

[Tinoire]

50. I really don't believe support for gay rights cost us anything

That and abortion were smokescreens used to cover the election theft.

Who was so upset about these gay rights? The 4 million pseudo-christians who just materialized out of nowhere? I don't believe for a minute that there were 4 million "new" voters. Where did these "new" voters come from?

The rabid christian Right has always voted for Republicans- ALWAYS.

I admire the sentiment of your post and I stand by it but Lord, I am so tired of hearing that 4 million _christians just materialized out of nowhere and voted for Bush. Where did they magically come from? Are we to believe that those 4 million just sat around totally apathetic to the political process until Rove came along? I don't believe it.

[kcass1954]

52. Anybody see "An American President"?

Michael Douglas is the President and Martin Sheen is the Chief of Staff. They're playing pool in one scene, having a discussion on various things, and Martin Sheen says, "You don't fight the fights you can win; you fight the fights that need fighting!"

Civil rights for EVERYONE is one of those fights. Bigotry and hatred cannot be tolerated.

[zulchzulu]

53. I'd rather side with history than blind rage and neo-McCarthyism

No compromise! At all!