Chairman Dean: Democrats gamble with their future

[TheWebHead]

HOWARD DEAN appears poised to become the next chairman of the Democratic National Committee. In response, Republicans are poised to break out the champagne.

All four of New Hampshire’s DNC members have pledged their support for Dean, who has said he would support New Hampshire’s first-in-the-nation primary status. Here and nationally, Democrats who back Dean say he is an impressive grass-roots organizer and would invigorate a party that has suffered a series of important defeats at the polls and is in dire need of new energy.

Energy Dean has in abundance. Credibility with non-Democrats? That remains to be seen. In a poll taken just before last year’s New Hampshire primary, 40 percent of respondents had a favorable opinion of Dean, while 57 percent of Democrats did. Dean’s appeal has always been to the left-wing core of the Democratic Party. His crossover attraction might not be there.

....A Dean chairmanship would be, as one insider put it to us recently, a “Hail Mary” pass. It is highly risky, but the party has fallen way behind by playing it safe, and many Democrats now think it is time to go long. Whether the gambit succeeds or fails, one thing is for sure. “Hail Marys” are a lot of fun to watch.

more...
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=50340

[LittleClarkie]

1. Well hell, who do we have who DOES have cred with non-Dems

Do we WANT credibility with non-Dems.

Besides, as Kerry said on MTP, we need an organizer and a modernizer more than a spokesperson, so what non-Dems think will matter little.

Dean for DNC Chair, with a Rosenberg chaser.

[genius]

4. Kucinich but he's not available.

[ultraist]

9. Only the Greens & we have those votes anyway

NO Repukes support Dennis

[genius]

122. Where were you? DK converted a lot of Republicans to Dem. We've lost the

Greens. Dean was the candidate they disliked the most. Of course, the Greens have been gloating since Kerry's concession because of all the Dems leaving the Party. I understand that there were a lot of former Republicans (who had converted to Democrat) at the highest levels of his campaign.

[digno dave]

84. that's funny!!!

[ultraist]

5. I don't think we need credibility with non-Dems

WHY should we continue to pander to our enemy? It's NOT WORKING.

[aquart]

23. Agreed. Time to regain credibility with DEMOCRATS.

Because I sure have no faith in our leadership.

[demwing]

30. Having credibility does not equal pandering!

Does a candidate have to pander to the base to earn credibility? NO.

So gaining credibility on all fronts is not necessarily a BAD thing, and can be achieved without compromising principles.

In fact, standing on a principle, weathering a storm of criticism, and NOT pandering to ANY voter group is an EXCELLENT way to earn a bit of crossover credibility.

[dolstein]

100. Excuse me, but have you ever taken a math class?

Newsflash: Democrats make up at most one-third of the electorate, and in some parts of the country substantially less than that. You can't win elections if you have zero credibility with people who aren't Democrats.

[last1standing]

104. So what do you propose Democrats do?

Pander to the right until most people can't tell the difference between the two parties? Oh yeah, we've already tried that.

Maybe we should equivicate on the issues so that we have the "right answers" according to the polls. Yep, tried that, now we're called flip-floppers.

Just what do you think we should do, Dolstein? You're always ready to say that we shouldn't stand up for ourselves, so please give us something positive to do.

[genius]

2. I don't agree with Dean on the issues but he did say he would have opposed

Condi. That's more courage than the most of the Dem Senators have. Every last one of them agreed not to filibuster Gonzales. The pretense at opposing him is just a lie. Unless the Republicans join us, it's just a show. If he were willing to call them what they are, maybe he could be a good leader.

[LittleClarkie]

7. How did every last one of them agree not to filibuster Gonzales

when it was reported that two of them were calling for it today.

Doesn't sound like "every last one of them" to me.

I think you sell the opposition short. They're going on record, esp. Kennedy, as being opposed to this shit. They just can't do a ton about it. And Gonzales will have more votes against him than any nominee in history (right? Or do I need to look that up?)

It's not fair to compare Dean courage to the Senators. The Senators have to go down on record with their votes, and Dean doesn't. Around the time of the Iraq vote, he said things similarly to Kerry. Both supported the Biden/Lugar resolution and approach, for example. But Kerry had to decide how to vote and Dean didn't. That puts Kerry at a disadvantage that Dean didn't have.

But I do support him for Chair.

[genius]

123. The unanimous consent AG on 2/1/05. A no-filibuster agreement

They unimously threw away the option. The rest is just a nice show.

[ultraist]

3. Only big risks lead to big wins

I AM SHOCKED this is actually happening. OMG! Are they actually figuring it out?

[CTLawGuy]

6. ooh

the Manch Vegas Fascist Leader...

Theres a reputable paper :eyes:

[Skink]

11. I glad Fowler is there...

I like him, he's to the left of Dean which for this contest helps put Dean in a better perspective.

[Zensea]

8. Where to start?

One insider says it's a Hail Mary pass.
One. You can find always find some unnamed insider to say whatever you want.

In a poll taken a year ago? What's that got to do with today?

"In a poll taken just before last year’s New Hampshire primary, 40 percent of respondents had a favorable opinion of Dean, while 57 percent of Democrats did. Dean’s appeal has always been to the left-wing core of the Democratic Party."

Oh and if his appeal is only to the left wing core, then why did 40% have a favorable opinion?

Is that 57% of Democrats?

Well, I'm glad that little article was in the editorial section of the paper at least.

[sandnsea]

13. It's called labeling

Or as Ms. Klein would say, identity branding. She's right about at least that much. People swish around the numbers in their head like you just did, and come to the conclusion that the 40% is all Democrats and therefore, Democrats are all a bunch of left-wing nuts. Just like this newspaper wanted them to. Just like Repubicans have been doing to Democrats for 30 years or more.

[Zensea]

16. Where you been hiding?

or maybe I haven't been around that much recently and have just not seen you posting.



Like I said, I'm glad it's in the editorial section at least.

Time will tell what's going to happen with this stuff the editorial addresses. I can't predict the future. I do think the landscape has changed since a year ago though.

edit - I found that smiley I was looking for

[Gloria]

10. Was that crook Haley Barbour a "gamble" for the RNC??

This crap pisses me off.

[OnionPatch]

117. You are so right

They can have any whacko they want representing them and it hasn't seemed to have hurt them at all. It makes them seem firm in their convictions!

[AntiCoup2K4]

12. Credibility with non-Democrats?

Does this mean the DLC is finally admitting that they are NOT Democrats?

[ClarkUSA]

14. Non-Democrats = Independents as well as moderate pro-choice,

fiscally conservative Republicans who don't like the reichwing whacko agenda anymore than we do.

The majority of U.S. voters are now Independents.

27% of Americans are Democrats, 27% are Republicans

Like it or not, we do have to appeal to non-Democrats. The GOP understand this, which is why they are now reaching out to core Democratic constituencies like African-Americans and Hispanics.

You don't see the GOP turning their nose up at non-Republicans. They are actively going after them and trying to appeal to them and reel them in.

That's what the DNC and Dean has to also try to do, otherwise we will truly not win another election in the South, West, or Heartland for very much longer.

For all the DLC trashtalk, Dean was a member of DLC and one of the ways he got this job was " intensely courting Democratic leaders, assuring them that he was not the liberal and undisciplined caricature that many said they saw last year."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1555854

The DLC is here to stay and Dean of all people understands this, having once been a member. They may not be your kind of Democrat or my kind of Democrat but they are Democrats. This type of leftwing demonizing is a mirror-image to Bushies that describe moderate Republicans mockingly as RINOs.

IMO, Democrats need every vote they can get. The GOP understand this and their base understands this. Now if only the Democratic base would recognize this, too. We need to create new voters and give them a reason to show up other than shouting slogans. We can't afford to be turning people away.

[TheWebHead]

18. exactly

there's a feeling here at DU that a candidate that embodies every progressive believe and won't budge from that position is the ideal, when in fact if that person was faced against a moderate conservative would likely get about 25% of the vote in a national race. The same could be said about a conservative who adopted every belief of Ayn Rand and wouldn't budge.

[CindyDale]

20. These are people who think CNN is liberal

If you wanted to appear moderate, you'd have to be maybe slightly to the left of Hitler.

[CindyDale]

21. and by the way I used to be a moderate pro-choice independent

until the 90s when I reregistered Democratic. The moderate independents and Republicans voted for Kerry. None of them voted for Bush.

[Mojambo]

25. "Now if only the Democratic base would recognize this, too"

Perhaps if the Democratic base were ever listened to, they would not be so defensive about things.

The leftwing of the party doesn't want to be the ONLY voice, but it does want to be ONE of the voices. Lately, they haven't been and that breeds distrust and partisanship.

I lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of centrist democrats that insist upon following the Republicans to the right on many issues (war, terrorism, and the economy.)

[cry baby]

15. I think the champagne will soon be hard liquor...

Dean is going to kick ass.

Truthfully, I don't think the repubs are happy about Dean, they are scared of him. They are lying about being happy so we will make a different choice.

[sendero]

58. Exactly...

... the Union Leader is not exactly a balanced rag.

When I hear that kind of crap ("breaking out the champagne"), my bullshit detector registers way into the red.

The Reps are SCARED TO DEATH of Howard Dean, because he knows their rhetorical tricks and is not afraid to use those tricks on them.

Their long free ride of word-slapping the country into submission can be ended by Dean. Champagne my fucking ass.

[DemDogs]

17. Your second "Dean is not inevitable"/"Dean is not safe" post

Do you want to declare yourself a Fowler guy or just keep posting these third-party arguments against Dean?

[TheWebHead]

26. I'm quite "ABD", if you're referring to me

I don't think I've been stealth about it the past few days as it appeared more and more likely the stop Dean movement fizzled.

[janx]

99. It's the third, actually. There have been at least three. n/t

[buddysmellgood]

19. It's nice to have a future to gamble with again.

[thebigidea]

22. Did Ed Gillespie get a lot of press talking about his appeal to Democrats?

Did Racicot win us over with his charm?

I don't see the point of this nonsense.

[KoKo]

121. Exactly ! Who the hell cares what the Repugs or "cross over Democrats"

think at this point. It's RESULTS. I don't care who the Repugs have as their Chairman. Media should stay out of our business, but they try to divide us at every turn...underlying theme of MSM is Democrats are "Un-American" they don't appeal to all the Repug Americans out there.

sheesh... They are so dumb they don't realize most Democrats don't care what they say anymore. 0 Credibility.

[kodi]

24. Accusations about Dean being extreme and radical are nonsense

Plainly, the accusations by anti-Dean folks center around his alleged extremism that has the potential to turn off middle of the road voters....

They are wrong, and in fact are spreading such nonsense because a Dean chairmanship would threaten their own bases of cushy power in the Democratic Party.

These folks actually are not worried about the destruction of the Democratic Party lead by a Howard Dean. Their rhetoruc of him as the "Hail Mary" guy to spark the party by playing boldly while behind is a canard, a prevarication. They know better than that, THE DECEITFUL LITTLE BASTARDS.

Dean is not planning the political equivalent of "Hail Mary" passes. As the DN Chair he plans to build a nationally affiliated grass roots ground game Woody Hayes would admire. It is this ground game that he (and I) expect to grind the GOP into the dust.

His antagonists refuse to admitt their real concerns, and those are personal, not political, viz., that Dean is planning to stab them in the heart by building a true grass roots level Democratic Party beholden only to the membership and not the washington power mavens who have aligned against him.

[flpoljunkie]

34. Dean so pure he took no "corporate" money when he ran for Gov and Prez?

And what about 527's like MoveOn, Act for Change, etc. who raised both soft money from rich folks, like Soros, and hard money, from folks like us.

Our special interests groups are labor, Hollywood, teachers,trial lawyers and environmentalists. These, to me, are the good guys--unlike the greedy pharmaceutical and insurance companies, multi-national corporations, banks and Wall Street--who, for the most part, are not good corporate citizens, to say the least.

Are not Feingold and McCain trying to stop 527's from raising soft money? Progress for America, currrently running ads to sell Dubya's "piratization" of Social Security, is a GOP soft money 527 group. FDR's son has denounced their use of his father's image and legacy in these despicable and dishonest ads.

The ideal way to go, of course, is public funding of campaigns, and requiring free air time for candidates to make their case, but also including 527 groups financed with hard money only--these would be grassroots in character. I would like to see individual contributions limited here, too.

[last1standing]

46. You're responding to a statement kodi never made.

Kodi is saying that Dean won't be beholden to the corporations who have taken control of the Democratic party through the DLC. I agree with that.

I also agree that we need to have our campaigns publicly financed. However, to get there, we need someone who is willing to stand up to corporations to get into a position to help. To me and many others, Dean is the person most likely to do it. I hope like Hell that we're right and you're wrong. If not, then I'm at a loss right now.

[Cha]

101. Dean is not "pure"..but he's

a hellava motivator and organizer..and brings a lot of people together in the Democratic party.

I'm really hoping he gets this so we can have some real action and change.

[opihimoimoi]

111. Me too. I hope he gets it.....

:bounce:

[Tinoire]

107. Thanks Zidzi- Your last paragraph pretty much sums it up

that the real concern is personal- "that Dean is planning to stab them in the heart by building a true grass roots level Democratic Party beholden only to the membership and not the washington power mavens who have aligned against him."

I never thought I'd see the day when a Centrist like Dean would be subjected to this kind of treatment.

[Romberry]

27. Polls just prior to the NH primary....

...were polls taken after about ten gazillion out of context airings of the "Dean scream" in Iowa and ten gazillion talking heads telling America that a smiling Howard Dean had "flipped his lid."

This editorial is nonsense. Howard Dean is about as pragmatic and centrist (yes, centrist) politician as you can get....unless you are looking to the far radical right of the Republican party as your guide.

Dean will make a great DNC chairman.

[flpoljunkie]

35. Dean has only himself to blame for his liberal, anti-war label. He made

the decision to court the anti-war vote hard in the primaries--when this DLCer's record in Vermont is indeed pragmatic and centrist. Dean also was in the right place at the right time and caught the ABB wave.

His campaign shrewedly harnessed the internet for fundraising--folks really loved and responded to the bat. Kudos to whoever came up with the bat!

Do we really want Dean to be the face and spokesman for the Democratic Party? I am not so sure.

[marcologico]

36. I wouldn't call it shrewd, I'd call it dishonorable and dishonest.

But about what I'd expect from a guy who openly admires Republican "discipline."

[last1standing]

43. Why do you keep posting this distortion?

Why don't you post the entire quote instead of using the swiftboat liar method of manipulating a few words?

Do you "admire" their "organization and discipline"?

[marcologico]

44. Maybe because he said it, and no, I do NOT admire Republican o and d.

It's dangerous demagoguery and I don't care how much they "win." They're playing with fire and we're all getting burned, in case you hadn't noticed yet.

[last1standing]

49. Then you just said that you are "dangerous" and "playing with fire".

Four words you said but completely out of context. Post Dean's entire quote and I'll believe you when you say you aren't dangerously playing with the fire of the swift boat liars.

[CWebster]

37. You allude to his success as a reason to object? nt

[marcologico]

40. What success? He got creamed in every primary outside his own state.

I call it a recipe for complete annihilation, and desperation is no excuse.

[JNelson6563]

47. Here is some succes for starters

At the local and state level, Democracy for America and Gov. Howard Dean have reason to celebrate this year's election results. Many DFA-endorsed Dean Dozen and DFA-supported candidates won elections at all levels of government, throughout the country.

• One of the two new Democratic United States senators was a "Dean Dozen" candidate--Barack Obama (D-Ill.). Obama and the other new Democratic senator, Ken Salazar (D-Colo.), received contributions from DFA.

• One "Dean Dozen" candidate won her race for Congress, Allyson Schwartz (D-PA) and DFA contributed to five of the fourteen incoming freshman Democratic Members of Congress.

• Some of the notable non-federal success stories include:

• Both of the new Democratic governors are "Dean Dozen" candidates: John Lynch (D-NH) and Brian Schweitzer (D-Mont.)

• Two "Dean Dozen" candidates won their mayoral race: Peter Corroon was elected as mayor of Salt Lake County, Utah and Tom Potter was elected as mayor of Portland, Ore.

• Democracy for America contributed more than $600,000 to 634 candidates for non-federal office. 319 of those candidates won--a 50% win-loss record.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to state legislatures in 16 states. Candidates for legislature who received Democracy for America contributions, but were not part of the "Dean Dozen," were elected in an additional 12 states.

• Democracy for America played a large role in regaining several legislative chambers for the Democrats, including: the Colorado House and Senate, the North Carolina House, the Oregon Senate, the Vermont House and the Washington Senate. DFA also helped secure a tie in the Iowa Senate.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to the bench in Alabama and Georgia.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates also won races for soil & water commission, supervisor of elections, township clerk, county commission and constable.

Governor Dean commented on the election results:

"The Dean Dozen candidates and the hundreds of other candidates that Democracy for America supported are the future of the Democratic Party. Win or lose, these fiscally responsible, socially progressive citizens fought to take our country back and helped spread the message that to change America, Democrats must compete everywhere, including the red states."

Throughout the months leading up to the election, Governor Dean attended press conferences, fundraisers and campaign rallies, to help spread the DFA message and raise campaign funds for 50 candidates in 26 states. Many of you--our supporters--volunteered and financially supported these candidates as well and your actions were invaluable.

DFA has raised over $5 million since we became an organization in March 2004. We have donated money to 748 candidates throughout the country--in 46 states and at every level of government. We believe that Democrats will return to national prominence very soon. DFA will continue to endorse and support candidates and train campaign workers and volunteers in 2005 and beyond.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/11/17/dean_dozen_success_stories.php

Not bad for a "loser". Tell me, what have you done for Dems lately? Besides pose for this pic?



Julie--getting a kick out of all these big talkin' armchair warriors

[marcologico]

50. If Dean wants to take credit for Barack Obama, let him, but I'd call that

about as honest as his "anti-Iraq war" position.

[last1standing]

53. Or as honest as your deceptive quotes and slander?

You are just showing what the anti-Dean forces are willing to stoop to in order to keep this party in the hands of corporations.

[marcologico]

57. I'm not misquoting Dean, and I'm sure as hell not taking credit for Obama.

nt

[last1standing]

62. But you won't post his entire quote to prove it? Okay, I will.

http://www.catholicsfordemocracy.org/node/view/5308
<quote>
Dean: Because I think we're in the best financial shape we've been in, probably ever, certainly in my lifetime. We don't have a debt coming out of the presidential race, which is extraordinary. We now need to do, frankly, some of the things Republicans are doing. There's nothing I admire about the Republicans. They can't manage money. They've gotten us into a war without telling us the truth about why we're there. But I do admire their discipline and their organization. And we need to build a grassroots organization in the states the way the Republicans have.
<endquote>

[marcologico]

67. That's a different quote, but as far as I'm concerned, equally damaging:

"We now need to do, frankly, some of the things Republicans are doing."

Wrong. We don't need to lie, we don't need to cheat, we don't need demagogue, we don't need to rig the polls. We need to pursue legitimate avenues even if it takes time, and if we don't we'll just screw ourselves worse.

My money stays on Kerry.

[last1standing]

69. Even with a direct quote right in front of you, you try to deceive.

You can keep you're money on Kerry and when he runs for DNC chair and wins, you can feel satisfied. Until then you need to realize that this is not a competition between Dean and Kerry. Does that not click in your brain for some reason?

[marcologico]

72. Don't change the subject. I asked you to tell me where I endorsed O'Neill.

That is obviously false, but you said it, so either back it up or apologize, thank you.

[last1standing]

73. You're the one changing the subject. Seems to be a skill of yours.

Are you so filled with hatred of Dean that you can't read posts properly?

[Dread Pirate KR Read]

91. It's time to Party or Parlais?

There is an expected level of politicking among various camps to set the agenda for the Party, however, I'm very concerned about Dean as chair.

Foremost, there's a level of payback against Clark, imo, by both Dean and among his constituency. Our Clark Meetup group had realized members who converted from Deans' camp when Clark announced his candidacy. They also donated on Deans behalf prior to Clarks entrance. It's clear that Dean and the other candidates realized the threat, which is why he particularly sought Clark as his running mate.

IMO, there are political forces that Deans "real" appeal favors among a demographic that mobilizes democrats who support the more progressive agendas in the Party, esp in urban/city areas who've been highly vocal and active through his leadership. This is important for states that are realizing a growing suburban populace who often are more "conservative" and moderate in their values and as they gain more political infuence for gov't resources, which takes away from the cities and social programs. This is the real politics at play imo. Although this is good for these centers, it has low appeal to attract moderates within the Party, imo as a former Independent.

I highly respect Deans ability and skills to mobilize his loyal base in support of the Democratic platform, but seriously question agenda to define the values and convictions for the country, on behalf of the Party. I believe that Deans agenda and image, as DNC chair may ultimately polarize the country towards either red and blue, as he defines the Party tailored for a loyal constituency who demand a more progressive agenda ---for the nation.

The Clinton/Clark , Dean/Gore and Kerry/Kennedy camps are vying for allies who support their vision for the Party. But imo, if Dean is Chair, I see a threepeat win for the neocons in the red states in 2008, and a much more darker shade of blue in traditional blue states, which is why I personally cannot see optimism for his candidacy as DNC chair. I'm share the Clintonite view that the country is mostly purple.

[last1standing]

93. I very much doubt there's any antagonism between Dean and Clark.

I think they respect each other very much, but fought to win the Democratic nomination just like every other candidate, fiercely. Now, the election is over and we are supposed to be on the same team again. I'm sure both of these men understand that.

Some of us at DU make far too much of these supposed cliques that separate our favorite politicians. When it comes down to it, after Kerry wrapped up the nomination he had Clark and Dean working their asses off to help him in any way possible. That is what good Democrats do.

[Dread Pirate KR Read]

94. Arrhg,...need to sharpen me'blade...

...and me'aim, ..meant to spellcheck,...grammar be'da--ned! ;/

[Dread Pirate KR Read]

92. It's time to Party or Parlais?

There is an expected level of politicking among various camps to set the agenda for the Party, however, I'm very concerned about Dean as chair.

Foremost, there's a level of payback against Clark, imo, by both Dean and among his constituency. Our Clark Meetup group had realized members who converted from Deans' camp when Clark announced his candidacy. They also donated on Deans behalf prior to Clark's entrance. It's clear that Dean and the other candidates realized the threat, which is why he particularly sought Clark as his running mate.

IMO, there are political forces that Deans "real" appeal favors among a demographic that mobilizes democrats who support the more progressive agendas in the Party, esp in urban/city areas who've been highly vocal and active through his leadership. This is important for states that are realizing a growing suburban populace who often are more "conservative" and moderate in their values and as they gain more political influence for govt resources, which takes away from the cities and social programs. This is the real politics at play imo. Although this is good for these centers, it has low appeal to attract moderates within the Party, imo as a former Independent.

I highly respect Deans ability and skills to mobilize his loyal base in support of the Democratic platform, but seriously question agenda to define the values and convictions for the country, on behalf of the Party. I believe that Deans agenda and image, as DNC chair may ultimately polarize the country towards either red and blue, as he defines the Party tailored for a loyal constituency who demand a more progressive agenda ---for the nation.

The Clinton/Clark , Dean/Gore and Kerry/Kennedy camps are vying for allies who support their vision for the Party. But imo, if Dean is Chair, I see a three-peat win for the neocons in the red states in 2008, and a much more darker shade of blue in traditional blue states, which is why I personally cannot see optimism for his candidacy as DNC chair. I share the Clintonite view that the country is mostly purple.

[sendero]

90. Being anti-THIS-war..

... and being anti-war, much less liberal, are two very different things.

Stop trying to trick the gullible with dishonest rhetoric.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Without Getting In This Internecine Battle...

We will know after the midterm elections if we have a party or not...

[CWebster]

29. Here it is again

Democrats shouldn't be looking to Republicans for cues. When they claim they are quivering in their boots over Lieberman, would you believe that?

Does anyone really believe they aren't terrified that Dean - or any powerfully determined opposition, may spearhead a sea change that would yank that invisible cloak of invincibility off?

[last1standing]

31. How many conservative opinion columns are you going to post?

I've seen three so far and it's wearing thin. Why do you keep trying to convince us that repubs are giving us good advice?

Just like some other people on this site, it seems like your personal hatred of Howard Dean may be overwhelming common sense.

I hope you spend this much energy reading and disseminating articles by Democrats.

[Cha]

106. It's deja vu all over again...

another long thread defending Dean from fascist columists' ops.

[marcologico]

32. "he would support New Hampshire’s first-in-the-nation primary status"?

What did I tell you. Guys, would I lie to you?

[marcologico]

33. p.s. I wouldn't call it a “Hail Mary” pass.

How about "Hail and Farewell"?

[last1standing]

38. There are some posts here you never responded to.

If you're willing to explain you're rather vague comments there.

[CWebster]

39. He is on a mission

Hey, some people need a gimmick. ;-)

[marcologico]

42. Sheesh, one guy tells me to explain myself, the next tells me to shut up.

Deaniacs, don't go flip-flopping on me!

[JNelson6563]

48. Who said "shut-up"?

Sad that you have to twist CWebster's words so in order to play the victim. Beyond sad, pathetic even.

Julie

[last1standing]

51. He seems to think that John O'Neill should lead the Dems.

He's taking plays right from their book.

[marcologico]

56. Now that IS "beyond sad," and we know whose book that's playing from.

Hint: he's in charge of Republican organization and discipline.

[last1standing]

59. Once again you can't seem to stop distorting the truth.

Post the quote or slink off like a troll who's been exposed.

[marcologico]

61. So tell me how "beyond sad" is not a direct quote. And while you're at

it tell me where I endorsed O'Neill.

[last1standing]

64. You want me to provide a complete quote when you refuse?

Here's one I'll give you.

http://www.catholicsfordemocracy.org/node/view/5308
<quote>
Dean: Because I think we're in the best financial shape we've been in, probably ever, certainly in my lifetime. We don't have a debt coming out of the presidential race, which is extraordinary. We now need to do, frankly, some of the things Republicans are doing. There's nothing I admire about the Republicans. They can't manage money. They've gotten us into a war without telling us the truth about why we're there. But I do admire their discipline and their organization. And we need to build a grassroots organization in the states the way the Republicans have.
<endquote>

And I agree you are "beyond sad".

[marcologico]

68. Repeat, tell me where I endorsed O'Neill, or please apologize. That is

simply false.

[Zensea]

70. Seems to think is not the same thing as saying endorsed

I seem to remember a discussion of the definition of the word "endorsed" recently....

[last1standing]

77. Hatred of Dean "seems to" have clouded his eyes.

:toast:

[last1standing]

71. Repeat, don't make demand of me when you refuse to answer

why you are using O'Neill's very tactics to slander Dean.

[marcologico]

74. I asked you to tell me where I endorsed O'Neill.

That is obviously false, but you said it, so either back it up or apologize, thank you.

[last1standing]

75. Lose one debate, start another. But make sure to twist the truth.

Don't make demands when you refuse my requests.

You're welcome.

[marcologico]

76. You made a false allegation. You haven't apologized. You can keep talking,

but this conversation is over.

[last1standing]

78. So long as you quit lying about Dean, I'm good with that.

:hi:

[last1standing]

52. Anything to keep from telling the whole story, huh?

Aren't these swift boat liar tactics? Come on, I've posted the whole quote (of course you then disappeared from that thread), it's your turn.

[lojasmo]

120. redacted.

[mattclearing]

41. I love that hail mary analogy.

If the R's are celebrating this, why do their allies in the media hate Dean so much?

I declare bullshit.

[CWebster]

45. No they are not.

I'll bet you a thousand dollars--they are not.

[dave29]

54. First they laugh at you...

let them laugh all they want. :-)

[marcologico]

60. . . . then they hand you your hat in the caucus. n/t

[last1standing]

66. Can you post anything that isn't filled with hatred of Dean?

n/t

[John_H]

55. This is expected of course. Only time will tell whether

Dean's rhetoric, which did nothing to discourage the erroneous belief that he's not a moderate,will give the rethugs the opportunity to make thiskind of BS stick.

Whether his supporters on the far left stick with him when he begins to function as a DNC chair should or whether they join the GOP in Dean bashing.

Whether Dean will put people in place in his message operation who will fight back hard against the RW media hit squads, or whether he will keep in place the same people that have let themselves get spanked for five years.

If I were Dean, I'd start blitzing the media with fact shet after fact sheet, interviews, and surrogates describing deans actual pragmatic recort as governor.

[CWebster]

65. I don't care. As with Reid, who is conservative,

it is the psychological constitution of the person to fill the role. One of substance, backbone, determination, decent judgement, fairness.

[Vinca]

63. Just MHO, but will it really matter that much?

Until the past election year I'd never heard of Terry McAuliffe and as I sit here I can't remember for the life of me who the Republican chair was before Melman. The position appears to operate more in the background than in the front. Dean's aggressive nature might be helpful in moving some of our lumps in Congress in the right direction. In addition, he's the king of fund raisers. I think he'll be fine as chair.

[last1standing]

79. The problem for years has been that this position has been neglected.

Dean is looking to revitalize it and use it as a way to implement his ideas. I hope he wins and follows through on his promises. We need to do something.

And I think Haley Barbour was before Melman.

[marcologico]

81. McAuliffe didn't have designs on the WH, and yes, it'll matter in '08,

when Howie pulls an Adlai Stevenson and we get thumped.

[last1standing]

82. Thanks for predicting the future for us all.

Once again the swift boat tactics of deception and slander. Can't get enough of it, huh?

[Orangepeel]

89. you are exactly right. nobody but political junkies care who is chair

all this crap about Dean scaring off moderates is just that -- crap. Nobody bases his or her vote on who the chair of the party is.

Dean will do an excellent job doing what the chair needs to do -- organize, raise money and fire up the base.

[Q]

80. That's funny...who cares about his 'credibility' with non-Democrats?

That's not even an issue.

[WI_DEM]

83. I'm willing to give him a chance

after all we haven't gotten anywhere in the last four years with Terry McAullife moderation at the helm. Besides, Dean was a governor and head of the National Governors Assn. He does know how to work with different factions.

[BlueInRed]

85. I remember when everyone was afraid in 03 and Dean was the lone voice

stating ANY opposition to Bush. (Well, Kucinich was also talking, but no one was listening to him.) Then the Democratic establishment caught on that there were a lot of people out there opposed to Bush's policies and they started echoing a lot of what Dean had to say.

I don't think we'd even had a close election if Dean hadn't broken through the illusion that you can't oppose President Bush on any issue. After a couple of months of watching Dean's popularity soar, most of the Democratic candidates started criticizing Bush's handling of the war and other issues, even if they still supported going to war in general.

I think this fear of Dean now is a lot like back in 2003, when most Democrats wouldn't utter a negative word about Bush on any topic. You might be surprised to see that having Dean as a spokesman will clear the way and allow other Dems to make more arguments against Bush, even if they are more conservative arguments than Dean himself is making. It is just like negotiating strategy. To get a deal in the middle, sometimes you have to make arguments to the left of middle. You don't make your best offer on the first try.

I am really more concerned that the only viable anti-Dean spokesperson is Fowler. IMO (which I know some will disagree with), Rosenberg or Frost or Webb would have all been superior anti-Dean candidates. I've watched Fowler on these DNC "debates" and I just feel he's not ready for prime time. I cannot see him forcefully arguing anything on the Sunday talk shows with Russert in his face. Rosenberg and Frost strike me as much better able to withstand the kind of pressure the conservative media is going to put on the DNC chair. JIMO.

[sampsonblk]

86. Amen

Its time for someone with courage to take the lead. Otherwise, we are an opposition party led by collaborators.

[Tinoire]

87. The Democrat Party gambled with its future when it went pro-war

totally ignoring its base.

They gambled with their future when THEY split with the base over the war.

They gambled with their future when

- they voted for IWR despite our strong, loud objections and then tried to nuance us to death in doublespeak and make us believe that their "antiwar" caricatures reporting for duty could fight what disgruntled war supporters wanted- a smarter, better war.

- they FORBADE people to wear anti-war attire or carry anti-war signs at the convention even though 90% of the delegates were anti-war.

- they put up "free speech zones at the Convention to pen up anti-war protestors & dragged Medea Benjamin off the floor.

- refused, under the strict watch of Clinton's man ex Republican war-mongering Sandy Berger, to include any antiwar talk in the platform & refused to include a single one of the Progressive Coalitions's ideas.

I hope you're getting the idea. This New Dem party needs to just shut up because it's embarrassing the base. The more it keeps talking, the more nails it's hammering in its coffin and the less of a gamble it's becoming. They're not gambling with Dean. They're trying to salvage what's left because fair-weather swing voters and disgruntled "Independent" war-supporters haven't been cutting it for them. They already gambled on that and lost. Time to quit the whining and the get over the persecution complex. You either represent the base or you don't- and if you don't, get the hell out of the way for someone who does.

[sampsonblk]

98. Yep, so glad to know...

I ain't the only one stil shocked by this, and still sickened by the lame excuses and explanations.

[Larkspur]

113. Well Said, Tinoire

Dean as DNC Chair will be a unique time in our Party's history. It could be the first time in history and maybe the last, where a celebrity Dem, like Dean, will be the face of the Dem Party until a Dem Prez nominee, who is accepted wholeheartedily by the Dem base, comes along.

[ProgressiveDepot.com]

88. Not as much of a gamble as they think

Dean's taking over the DNC seems like a gamble now when it's in the news, but in time he slides more into the background and the candidates are the face in most instances.

It is Dean's strategies and tactics that I believe can resuscitate the party. He is not afraid to say what needs to be said -- but if he's behind the scenes he can craft the message with more time to do so withot so many off-the-cuff remarks that have hurt him in the past.

How many people nationally could tell you who the DNC or RNC chair were this last time around? I know YOU can, but how many people in the general public? Dean will be a bit higher profile because of his past, but he won't be the face of the Democratic Party as some of these people crying about him seem to believe (or would like to believe depending on whose side you're on).

What he could be is the person to inject some more life into the candidates, so they're not always running scared of saying something that will be used against them.

[freeandbrave]

95. The True Gamble

...would be in NOT electing Dean.

[Debi]

97. Agreed

n/t

[gulfcoastliberal]

96. "the party has fallen way behind by playing it safe"

That says it all. And I really don't see Dean as a "hail-mary", unless Dean truly has the power and will to wrest party policy away from the DLC.

[dolstein]

102. Since when has nominating Massachusetts liberals amounted to

"playing it safe"? Seems to me that we have been taking one stupid risk after another by nominating candidates who appeal only to narrow constituencies.

[rfkrfk]

110. Kerry's appeal, was broad and deep

Kerry's appeal to the primary voters
of New Iowashire, was impressive.

[dolstein]

119. No it wasn't

Count the number of caucus voters in Iowa and primary voters in New Hampshire. Then count the number of voters in the general election. It should be pretty obvious that you can't gauge the appeal of a presidential candidate based on a self-selected group of primary voters who are not even remotely representative of the electorate as a whole.

I hate having to explain this to DU'ers over and over again, but the number of primary voters is trivial compared to the number of voters in the general election, and primary voters on the whole tend to be substantially more liberal than general election voters. It should be obvious that a candidate who appeals to primary voters isn't necessarily the candidate with the greatest appeal to general election voters.

In any event, the warning signs with regard to Kerry were pretty obvious early on. Polls showed that primary voters were supporting Kerry more because they thought he was electable, that because of any personal affinity. The people who based their decision on the candidate they personally liked, or who they thought cared about people like them were more likely to vote for Edwards. Edwards, not surprisingly, also ran stronger among independents than Kerry in those few open primaries. All of these signs indicated that Edwards was likely to fare better in the general election.

[shance]

103. Imagine if we were actually voting for a liberal for DNC chair!!

I know Republicans would like to see anyone who they can bully and coerce to be DNC chair, and no doubt they will do their best to intimidate and/or sabatoge the success and truth about Dean, like they are trying to do already.

It's more important than ever we defend and protect leaders like Governor Dean who has remained present, consistent, loyal and willing to stick his neck out, not to mention taking on this huge project, when almost all of us aren't willing to go near such a distance. Most of us are comfortably seated on the sidelines watching and waving as spectators. I think that's important to remember when we lose touch with how difficult it is to be doing what individuals like Governor Dean are doing to make this country better.

What does it say about our country, where individuals, Republicans and some *Democrats* too, are doing every thing they can, spending volumes of dollars (much of it our own taxpayer money) to sabatoge our best leaders, halt any kind of logical, sane progress, discourage enlightenment and erase the truth?

Time to look at the reality.

The good guys are getting the punches that should be saved for the bad guys, and this has got to stop. That will depend on how much we as Americans continue to allow it and not call it for what it is.

How many people would be willing to take on DNC chair? For those of us who criticize, would you be willing to go through what Governor Dean has dealt with, all the way back to the primary?

In my opinion, we should have been begging him to take the position a while back.

It's no easy job Govenor Dean is taking on. He's going to need all the help, support and unity he can get from all of us.

[trogdor]

105. No guts, no blue chips.

Here's the lineup of their op/ed page, right off their website.

Cullen · Goldberg · Krauthammer · Malkin · Murdock · Novak · Parker · Will

Reads like a Who's Who of right-wing hate speech.

[twenty2strings]

108. I like him...I like Boxer...I like fighters...

I believe we are the party with more truth. :toast:

[RetroLounge]

109. Boy, there's a lot of scared repigs out there

and a whole lot of scared spineless dems too.

RL

[opihimoimoi]

112. They come to denigrate, divide, and conquer....don't fall for the troll

trap...... stay above the fray.

[KissMeKate]

114. go long!

lol- well, anyways, I think this gamble will pay off for the Democrats- big time.

[Larkspur]

115. Howard Dean will be our "Joe Montana, the Comeback Kid"

I'm an ND Grad, class of '83, and when I was in high school, I was in love with Joe Montana because he never gave up and he had a knack to rally his team and take victory from the jaws of defeat.

Dean will do that for the Dem Party.

[SaveElmer]

116. Yeah...the status quo has really worked for us up till now!!!

The risk would be continuing the way we are going!!!

[last1standing]

118. Doesn't look like many of us were converted by this conservative rag.

Try again, WebHead. Maybe you and marcologico can form your own group for this stuff. :evilgrin: