DEM LEADERSHIP = WORTHLESS

[ulTRAX]

WTF is going on with the Democratic Party? Kerry runs his entire campaign and refuses to take full advantage of the issue Bush handed him on a sliver platter: the deficit/debt. Kerry refused to even state the correct Bush deficit amount and in doing so lost a golden opportunity to educate the public to return some sanity to the nation and to build resistance to the Right's strangle the beast strategy. But to educate the public meant Kerry could not play his own game with the numbers pretending that he was going to cut the deficit in half in 5 years when he only meant the unified budget deficit meaning it would still be several hundred BILLION in the red.

So when the Dems had the ear of the nation again last night... Reid and Pelozi AGAIN refuse to educate the public. Harry Reid made this comment: "The Bush plan would take our already record high $4.3 trillion national debt and put us another $2 trillion in the red. That's an immoral burden to place on the backs of the next generation." No, Harry... according to http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/ the national debt is 3.2 TRILLION higher than the figure you gave.

By playing their own games with the deficit/debt numbers Dems are undermining the resistance to the Right's plans to dismantle Social Security. Bush's plan is only the opening gambit in this strategy.

When it comes to SS Bush is the fox guarding the henhouse yet not one Dem is raising this issue. In 2000 Bush ran on preserving the surplus to strengthen Social Security... from http://romcache.tripod.com/Bush2000PressRelease.pdf

"The bottom line is clear: Governor Bush’s plan takes care of Social Security first, provides America’s working families with a tax break, and does it all within the context of a balanced budget,”
Lindsey continued. “In particular, the Joint Committee on Taxation estimate proves that Vice President Gore was badly mistaken, inaccurately portraying Governor Bush’s plan as costing 60 percent more than it actually does. Now that the nonpartisan on Joint Committee on Taxation has settled the debate about the cost of Governor Bush’s tax cut, Americans can contrast the Governor’s priorities with the Vice President’s plan to spend more of the surplus in government programs than Governor Bush provides in
tax relief. We look forward to that debate. And in the spirit of fair debate, we hope Vice President Gore will soon release independent scoring of his spending proposals."

Yet it's clear Bush lied and once in office did everything possible to sabotage paydown of the debt thus putting SS at more risk with irresponsible tax cuts. Now he talks in dire terms that after 2018 the government will have to somehow "find" a few hundred billion each year. That money SHOULD be coming from a surplus in on-budget revenues he promised to protect. Instead Bush has done more to perpetuate massive debt than any president. Last year Bush's on-budget deficit was some 570 BILLION.... not the 413 billion widely reported or mentioned by the Dems. Bush right from the start took off the table the SIMPLEST way to fix SS: increase taxes on the wealthy... yet the Dems didn't call him on this.

To save SS the Democratic leadership has to be straight with the American People. They can't save it by playing their own games.

[bullimiami]

1. i agree, worthless.

and spineless.

[ClassWarrior]

2. I didn't bother to read what looks to be a thoughtful critique...

...thanks to the snotty, dismissive tone of the title.

:shrug:

Too bad.

NGU.

[ulTRAX]

6. If you don't read the post.......

If you don't read the post then you'll never find out if I made my case. That makes YOUR comments sound pretty silly. Let me guess...... you only read posts that cheer on a morally and intellectual bankrupt Democratic Party instead of try to improve it by exposing its glaring deficiencies?

[ClassWarrior]

8. Let’s say you have a friend who’s an alcoholic...

...and you’ve formulated the most convincing argument in the world for him to get off the sauce, and you begin by going out into public and calling him a “worthless fucking drunk.” How successful do you think you’re gonna be??

C’mon!! We’re all adults here, with the truth and justice on our side. We don’t need to engage in these third-grade Freep-style hate games.

And to answer your question, I wouldn't be using an "alcoholic" metaphor if I didn't think there were problems in the Party.

NGU.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skidmore]

11. Interesting .

"...and you’ve formulated the most convincing argument in the world for him to get off the sauce, and you begin by going out into public and calling him a “worthless fucking drunk.” How successful do you think you’re gonna be??"

Well, when he continues to ignore you, then confrontation is warranted. When confrontation is ignored, then you let him fall flat on his face in the gutter and deal with natural consequences in spades.

Looks like we're headed that direction, doesn't it?

[ClassWarrior]

14. I never said don't confront HIM.

I simply said it's counterproductive trash the poor slob in front of his friends and family.

And we're not headed in that direction if I have anything to say about it.

NGU.

[Skidmore]

16. The "poor slob" has had plenty of wake-up calls,

verbally and in kind. The "poor slob" still doesn't get it. He'd rather hang with his drinking buddies and call them friends. Well, when he's bought them the last round he can with the last dollar in his pocket, they'll leave him on the floor under the bar.

What's wrong with getting him into detox. That may mean getting him off the streets and going through withdrawal the hard way. DTs and dry heaves are not pretty, but sometimes necessary.

[ClassWarrior]

18. Of course, maybe the only way to defend the argument being advanced here…

…is to distort the words of its detractors.

Again, I never said there's anything wrong with getting him into detox. I simply said you're never going to help the guy by verbally destroying him in front of his friends and family. On the contrary, you're going to send him into a deeper spiral.

Not to mention the fact that spite and trash-talking are not Progressive values.

NGU.

[Skidmore]

20. Who exactly do you consider his friends and family?

WE are his friends and family!! The very people who live with his excesses and negligence. Who clean up his vomit and lug his sorry butt to bed when he passes out on the couch. We're the ones who cover his bills so he can imbibe and not take responsibility. We've been his enablers. Who better to give hones feedback.

[w4rma]

24. We are not his friends and family. We are him.

If he ends up in the gutter. That's us in the gutter.

They say alcoholics, many times, have to hit rock bottom before they'll quit. We had better convince this alcoholic that they've already hit rock bottom, because the real rock bottom is worse than just about American can imagine.

[ClassWarrior]

25. I don't know about you, but if our hypothetical friend was in MY family...

...I would share my concern for him with my fellow family members, not spite and scorn. And yes, honest, unvarnished feedback.

NGU.

[Skidmore]

27. Having had a close family member in the

same situation as our hypothetical friend, I can speak to this. Sometimes it does come to this point. I don't know where you get "spite and scorn" out of this. Feedback sometimes needs to pointed when people refuse to hear what you are saying. If you care for someone, hurt feelings will be forgiven. But to not say anything at all doesn't help anyone a bit, on either side of the issue.

[ClassWarrior]

29. One more time... I never said you should do nothing at all.

I said you need to confront HIM - in whatever tone necessary - to solve the problem. And that you'll accomplish nothing positive by destroying his character in the eyes of the people on his side.

Following your example, if I were to decide that my friend needs to be confronted in no uncertain terms and with no holds barred, I'd say to the other people going through this with me, "I'm really worried about ol' Harry. I think we need to resort to extreme measures."

Not, "Ol' Harry's a worthless piece of SHIT. Let's GET the prick!!"

NGU.

[Skidmore]

30. I still don't understand the conclusion

you are drawing from what I have said. The other people going through this are also being hurt by Ol' Harry, and he's hurting himself. Isolation/detox/removing from circulation and relearning is considered by many in that situation to be extreme, but it's sometimes necessary. And, yes, it is also an act of love.

[ClassWarrior]

31. I agree. Again, why does that justify trashing the victim's character?

Which is what the OP did.

Did you engage in "isolation/detox/removing from circulation and relearning" with your loved one in public, thus maximizing his or her humiliation?

Or did you handle it privately so you could let him or her - and the rest of you - maintain as much dignity as possible? That's what a Progressive would do.

NGU.

[Skidmore]

34. Who do you see as the victim here?

Ol' Harry is a victim of his own choices and excesses. Those who enable him are also victims of their own choices by refusing to deal with Ol' Harry's behavior and set boundaries with him.

I choose not to enable Ol' Harry, and pointing out instances of his actions and choices and how they have contributed to his current state, is not impugning his character. That is the same sort of argument the Rs have been using to justify voting for people who were architects of policies for this war and torture. You're picking on them. No, I'm not. I've reached these conclusions by observation, and facts are stubborn things. Sometimes facts are hurtful. You can't make them go away or change them. If you refuse to learn from them, you will suffer consequences or repeat them. It's time for natural consequences.

[ClassWarrior]

36. No, but saying he's a worthless piece of shit IS impugning his character.

That's my whole point here. The Party DOES have serious problems that need to be addressed - but we only damage our own cause by undermining the character of the people on our side amongst one another, rather than engaging in constructive discussion on how to solve the problem. And yes - those solutions may mean a healthy does of tough love.

NGU.

[Skidmore]

39. Who's undermining anyone's character?

I've heard a lot of voices demanding answers from a leadership that has been unresponsive for years now. People are frustrated and angry. The consequence for not doing the grassroots work is that the leadership will be abandoned unless it changes. Frankly, those who refuse to change deserve to be abandoned. If having that opinion makes me a character assassin, then sue me--I must be guilty.

[ClassWarrior]

40. The OP whom you're defending is. Look at the top of the thread.

"The Dem leadership: WORTHLESS."

With comments like that, who needs RepubliCONS?

NGU.

[Skidmore]

42. I don't see that as impugning character.

Ineffectiveness makes leadership worthless. The Dem leadership is of no value as long as it is ineffective. That's the message to the leadership--evolve or become extinct. Has nothing to do impugning anyone's character.

[ClassWarrior]

45. You're right, disruption can be extremely subtle.

That doesn't mean it's not disruption.

NGU.

[Skidmore]

48. Disagreeing with the status quo does not a disruptor

make.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skidmore]

21. Thanks.

[ClassWarrior]

26. I've never known a Progressive who responded to pleas for civility...

...with such wild-eyed hatred and scorn.

NGU.

[saracat]

32. But isn't that called intervention, and isn't that

what the Betty Ford Clinic uses? They have a confrontation of the addict with friends and family confronting them with how much pain they have caused and how they embarass them etc.

[ClassWarrior]

33. Show me a link where the BFC advocates destroying his character...

...as a method of confronting the victim.

NGU.

[saracat]

35. I don't know about that but they do confront the individual with his fault

I was really joking, but you were describing intervention!

[ClassWarrior]

38. Yes, I was describing intervention. And I was saying I've never heard...

...of an intervention plan that advocates describing the victim as a worthless piece of shit. In fact, I'm willing to bet that EVERY LAST intervention program advocates starting from a position of empathy and compassion.

NGU.

[saracat]

46. You are probably right!

[Just Me]

3. The Republicans apparently HATE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!

They are destructive and serve only the interests of 5% of the wealthiest in this country and do so on the backs of the 95% majority.

Why do the Republicans hate Americans so much that they would conspire to spend their blood and treasure in such deceptive/crafty/manipulative ways?

:mad:

[ramapo]

4. Two possible reasons

Like you I am incredibly frustrated by the lack of a basic, straight-forward, no BS approach by the Democrats. Kerry certainly didn't take that tact.

I see two possible rationales. One is that the Democrats believe that Americans can't bear the truth and the party would lose even more ground. Might be some truth to that, they'd be derided as naysayers, nattering nabobs and the like. But how much worse off could they be showing some real spine? Who knows?, Americans might actually appreciate somebody talking to them like grownups, a la Ross Perot during his brief flight of coherency.

The other possibility is that Democrats are just as complicit in this whole mess and really don't want to rock the boat. You know, the old go along to get along, for which the Democrats have demonstrated a particular talent.

At this point I've pretty much given up on the whole bunch.

[G_j]

7. a Jesus saying

put in a non-religious context:

One cannot serve two masters at once, you will end up loving one and hating the other.

seems to fit

[ulTRAX]

9. If the Dems refuse to tell the truth......

If the Dems refuse to tell the truth they undercut the future for their own agenda simple because they never build a constituency for it. In fact they are helping the Right sabotage government finances by using dishonest numbers.

The possibility of EVER having programs such as national health care depends on getting to a surplus and paying down the debt. Where are the Democrats that care enough about their own agenda to even tell the truth?

[ulTRAX]

17. where's Ross Perot when we need him?

I voted for Perot in 92... only to watching him make an ass of himself in 96. But he did try to educate the Public on issues like the debt. Democrats need to borrow some tactics from his playbook. High on the list is to use honest numbers and to make the numbers less abstract. I think most Americans haven't a clue what the difference is between a billion and a trillion... and even if they do can't comprehend how large these numbers are. If one does the math... Bush's 04 deficit would equal a stack of cash (tightly packed $1 bills) over 450 FEET tall above covering a regulation football field. His debt a skyscraper over 1300 FEET tall. Back when I was a regular at the Kerry forum I repeated advocated this visual approach be used. But Kerry refused to even give correct deficit numbers often refering to it as "record deficits". Dems seem determined to keep these numbers abstract... and in doing so are keeping American in the dark.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. I'd like to see every Dem borrow Ben Cohen's Oreo cookie example

If you haven't seen it, he takes stacks of Oreos and has each cookie represent a billion dollars. This humongous pile is what the Pentagon spends each year, this tiny pile is what conservatives like to call "welfare spending," this fraction of a cookie is what the National Endowment for the Arts gets...

[ulTRAX]

52. If the Right TRULY cared about fiscal responsibility

If the Right TRULY cared about fiscal responsibility we'd see it in their actions. But it's clear they are trying to create a fiscal trainwreck. And if someone is TRULY interested in curbing government waste they'd be shocked by how much taxpayer money we piss away on interest which buys the American People NOTHING. It was 321 BILLION last FY. Source: http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm

Hear ONE person on the Right complain about that? And just wait how it skyrockets as interest rates start to climb. A few years back it was over 360 billion.

[ramapo]

47. Worked for Reagan

Remember him going after Carter in the debate with a simple representation of the then trivial debt.

[ultraist]

41. I think it's a little of both

They don't want to reveal their complicity AND they think being more moderate will attract more voters. I think we've learned through experience that pandering to the Repukes does not work for the Democrats. If they presented the cold hard facts, they would have to be on the attack against the Repukes. Letting the Repukes off easy is not going to gain us votes.

I also agree with the poster who suggested using simple models to educate the public on the facts. We are talking about fifth grade level math. I think the American public can handle that for fucks sake.

I was extremely disappointed by Reid's & Pelosi's speeches and not just the horrible delivery or the story of the little boy who wanted to be just like Reid or the reference to Groundhog day. :boring:

I don't think the Dem party is worthless but there is a LOT of room for growth and improvement.

BTW, who else almost hurled when Lieberman and Bush kissed last night? Case in point.

[Skidmore]

5. But, but, but....what do you want to do?

Have us eat our own? (Insert any additional DLC standard whine here.)


BTW, I fully agree. They have to quit playing DC political games. And if they can't see this, they deserve to lose their seats next time around. We just better have someone with winning ideas ready to offer up in their place. I'm sick of the status quo. I don't have patience with these people anymore and am not willing to cut them slack. A good many of them let things slide while playing the good ole boys insider game with a bunch of ruthless jerks who told them outright what they planned to do.

Dem leadership better start taking these issues seriously and addressing them honestly. Until now, their track record is not good. They gave away war powers to an idiot who TOLD them he was taking us to a war based on lies. WE knew that ahead of time and saw the posturing for what it was--timekilling while troops were being moved into place. They have given away our civil rights with acquiensence on the Patriot Act and no true oversight even when they were in the majority. Not a peep from them. They've let two (count them, two--2) elections be stolen, and for one of them, didn't even question voting machines with no paper trail which could be validated. They've done lip service to *s ineptness with the "he's a good guy" crap and have refused to hand his tush back to him on a platter at the time he was outright taunting them with lies and daring them to get him.

I'm tired of them playing it safe. Sometimes you have to just stand up. COME BACK TO THE PEOPLE AND BE ONE OF US!! FORGET THE EFFIN MILLIONAIRE'S CLUB!! ENGAGE IN STRAIGHT TALK AND NOT POLITICAL DOUBLESPEAK!!

[ulTRAX]

12. it's scandalous......

It's scandalous that just 5 years ago everyone knew that the Clinton surplus had to be protected to strengthen SS. Even Bush ran on this platform as his NUMBER ONE priority. Yet Bush instead created over 1.7 trillion in new debt... and the Dems can't even call him on this core deception.. even when the Right's strategy threatens one of their hallmark achievements.

[oscar111]

15. US wealth = 1O5 Trillion

www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/current/accessible/l5.htm

see bottom line there

a useful fact that no one in the general public seems to know.

i agree, we must get the debt under control. We need all the old dem programs again at full strength, especially housing vouchers, which RR the monster cut by 2/3rds in the early '8O's, suddenly creating mass homelessness.

Homelessness kills 1oo,ooo/yr from heat, cold, rat bites and food stamp cuts { food stamp cuts... aka hunger... 12 million hungry in our showcase nation. Who would ever want to copy our set-up?}.

The homeless die at three times the normal rate. 3 million are homeless at some time over the course of a year.. some move up and out of it, others fall in.. a churing phenomenon... in any one night , a million live on a piece of sidewalk.

they are not lazy.. JOB SHORTAGE is now 14 million, so that number is forced to try to live without an income. No matter how much they try to find a job. Some have helpful family, some do not.

we must get JOBS FOR ALL, via share the work, co ops, and WPA.

www.njfac.org

site is advised by Clinton SOL, robt Reich, and Galbraith of harvard, two Nobelists, and the Archbishop of Milwaukee. The archbisop even, what more could you want? LOL.

[ulTRAX]

22. great source.... but I don't see the relevance to the topic

Great source.... but I don't see the relevance to the topic. I really don't. The issues is not how much wealth is out there... it's whether the Democrats are undercutting their own agenda by deceiving the Public on the health of the US budget. .

[Al-CIAda]

13. worthless!

[McCamy Taylor]

28. Disagree! The Dems are getting tough. The GOP has culled the weak

and all that is left is the fighting, feisty Dems and boy are they pissed off! Compare the media circus the Dems are putting on with the Condi and Gonzales confirmations to the way they rolled over for Ashcroft and Co. back in 2001. Look at Dean and his promise to take apart the voting machines in Ohio and the Dems promise to spend $500,000 investigating election fraud in Ohio. Look at Feinstein, who finally found her spine and objected to Gonzales! The Dems are on a roll!

:dem:

[ulTRAX]

50. I could not disagree more

Anyone can pick a few examples and try to generalize. But it's the Party's cowardice and bad judgment that's the issue here... not a few members of the party. The more revealing indicator of the bankruptcy of the Party is how both Kerry during the campaign and the Dem leadership last night refuse to counter the Right's strategic goals. On the BIG issues such as educating the public on the federal budget, Social Security, and even Right wing judicial activism... the Dems either pander or play softball with the Right. Either way it's a sure way to be steamrolled. In the meantime the DLC tried to make moral cowardice the strategy of the Party. It's suicide by a thousand cuts.

[Lostnote03]

37. Straight to the point Ultrax...

.....I agree that Kerrys use of the unified budget numbers enabled the GOP to further their budgetary smoke and mirror charade....Maybe I should quit drinking the strawmans liquor...

[ultraist]

44. Straddling the fence...

Where is that going to get us? Having one foot on one side and one foot on the other, is ineffective. If a lifelong Democrat had to stop and ask, where does Kerry really stand on this? What is he really saying? Then it's apparent, that the message was convoluted.

[tom_paine]

43. The same mistakes of the German Social Democrats

or the Roman "Republicans" (who are also analgous vs. the Caesers to our Ameikan Democrats).

My God, how history repeats itself!

Hey, at least they aren't mudering Democrats wholesale, just pinpoint assaisinations like Wellstone and Family, with the occasion envelope full of anthrax sent to them.

Progress, eh?

Kinder and Gentler Nazis this time aeround (for the moment).

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

51. I thought he talked alot during the campaign about the deficit, and the...

"birth tax". That was a good phrase, I thought. A birth tax. Remember the ads about that? I can't remember, were those campaign ads or moveon.org ads?

[ulTRAX]

53. Kerry refused to even use correct deficit numbers

Throughout the campaign and in the material they had on the Kerry site the Kerry campaign refused to use the on-budget revenue deficit numbers which were about 155 billion higher than the unified budget. The difference is that 155 billion is what's being borrowed from various federal trust funds to cover expenses the on-budget revenues can't cover. Kerry's own deficit reduction plan was a sham because it used the same dishonest numbers. For this year alone this borrowing is expected to be about 173 billion... and next year around 194 billion. So at that rate of growth Kerry could claim in 5 years to cut the deficit in half while sweeping under the rug some 1 trillion in new borrowing.

[LittleClarkie]

54. How did Clinton balance the budget

the same way, by sweeping it under the rug? The thought just occurred, but I don't know.

[Tigress DEM]

55. Clinton showed up for work and did his job.

The Bush administration spends so much of it's time promoting these agendas that have nothing to do with reality that they don't do the real work of taking care of the nation's issues.

Clinton came in initially and tried to control every piece of the government, at least until he had intelligence on what was going on and then he started letting people he trusted run with what they had to do.

More bi-partisan work happened under Clinton's time and work actually got done. Sure it wasn't picture perfect, but the general rules of order were in force even with the Republican witch hunt after Clinton's balls going on. Maybe the DEMS worked at being honorable so they could keep their jobs because they saw what the scandals would do to them.

A friend of mine was an intern and actually sat in on legislative sessions and she says even here where MN nice rules the repubs will be mean and nasty and all the DEMS try to do is get the job done.

[ulTRAX]

57. Clinton had an honest surplus

As on-budget revenues rose the borrowing from the trust funds to meet expenses was no longer needed. So in FY98 there was a unified budget surplus. In FY99 and 00 there was an honest on-budget revenue surplus... totaling about 90 billion. Given that debt can only be TRULY be paid down with such a surplus... it was indicative of Bush's true intentions to sabotage revenues just as we essentially broke even... and before any real debt paydown was accomplished.

[Tigress DEM]

59. He also created jobs and funded programs that help people

If you give money to those at the bottom of the pay scale, they put it right back into the economy. Pay rent, buy food, pay bills etc...

Money to the rich is money they could - theoretically - might think about investing back into the economy.

[Telly Savalas]

56. So the public thinks a $4.3 trillion dollar debt is acceptable...

but would be shocked into action if they knew it was really $7.5 trillion?

[ulTRAX]

58. it's a Washington game

It's 4.3 trillion borrowed from sources outside the government... and 3.5 or somesuch trillion borrowed from within the government. Regardless of the source... it still has to be paid back and the only source can be an on-budget surplus.... and last year we were some 468 BILLION in the hole.

[Moderator]

60. I'm locking this thread

reason:

Flamebait