Howard Dean, emerging leader of Democratic Party,

[janx]

is a member of the United Church of Christ



Howard Dean, the former presidential hopeful who is emerging as the new national leader of the Democratic Party, is a member of the United Church of Christ.


>snip<

In 2003, when Dean's faith first became a political issue, conservative syndicated columnist Cal Thomas disparaged the UCC as "a liberal denomination that does not believe in ministerial authority or church hierarchy." Thomas further claimed that "each Congregationalist believes he is in direct contact with God and is entitled to sort out truth for himself."

More accurately, the UCC's Congregationalist roots trace back to the early 1600s, when the Pilgrims and Puritans first landed on the continent.

These "Congregationalists," as they were later called, sought religious independence from persecuting political authorities in Europe. They believed firmly in local church autonomy, church-state separation, personal piety and the priesthood of all believers.

http://www.ucc.org/news/r020205.htm

[WI_DEM]

1. I'm a UCC member and

we are accepting of all people and believe in Christs true humanitarian principles.

[janx]

4. I was raised in the Congregational Church,

and I loved it. :hi:

[Cary]

2. And if he is our Chairman. . .

Godspeed!

[Vincardog]

3. What exactly is wrong with

each Congregationalist believes he is in direct contact with God

Is it because some Wad doesn't have a chance to tell everyone what God wants them to do?

[janx]

5. YEP.

;-)

[Guaranteed]

11. The Chimp thinks he is, doesn't he? nt

[janx]

12. He makes a display of it. n/t

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. I believe Cal Thomas is Catholic

...and as such, believes that it's neccessary for a priest to be the "middleman" between man and God. Protestants believe that Jesus Christ himself fills that role and that any one has a direct line to the Father in His name.

A minor doctrinal difference, in my opinion, but leave it to the right wing pukes to find some excuse to bash a Democrat's faith.

[sendero]

62. Exactly.....

.... if one has to be religious, s/he should at least cut out the middleman. I don't think it says in the Bible "do what false prophets tell you".

[Zensea]

6. Notice the Senators who are members of the same church

The UCC's membership includes six U.S. Senators, representing a broad political spectrum: Judd Gregg (R-N.H.), Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii), Jim Jeffords (I-Vt.), Max Baucus (D-Mont.), Jon Corzine (D-N.J.) and Barack Obama (D-Ill.).

Former U.S. Sen. Bob Graham (D-Fla.), a one-time opponent of Dean for their party's presidential nomination, is also UCC.

Andrew Young (D-Ga.), the former civil rights leader, member of Congress, U.N. ambassador and Atlanta mayor, is an ordained UCC minister.

[napi21]

41. I know nothing about the UCC, but it's interesting all the Sen. are Dem.

Is that just an irony, or am I beieng paranoid again?

[Zensea]

44. Not all of them

It says Gregg is a Republican.

Jeffords was a Republican too before.

[janx]

49. Well, OK. One moderate Repub and one Independent.

!!!!!!!!!!

[Eloriel]

55. UCC website including Find a Church

http://www.ucc.org/index4.html

Just in case anyone's interested. :-)

[JackRiddler]

7. Latest RW program...

is now apparently to roll back the Lutheran Reformation?

Bush himself thinks he talks to God. So do his fundamentalist homies.* What's the objection when the UCC have a direct connect too?

--
* so does T.O.

[Kagemusha]

8. Pardon me asking but,

isn't Cal Thomas catholic?...

If he's not then I heard wrong and apologies...

[JackRiddler]

17. Actually, what he says makes sense...

ONLY if he's Catholic, or some form of neo-fundamental bible literalist.

He's saying (whether his pea brain comprehends the implications of his own words or not) that an individual understanding of God is wrong, and that you have got to take your cue from a church hierarchy or "ministerial authority." In fact, his statement does not even mention the authority of holy text or law, disparaging the UCC simply as "a liberal denomination that does not believe in ministerial authority or church hierarchy."

That standard disqualifies the vast majority of Christian Protestant denominations, and probably the majority of church-goers in the U.S. (to say nothing about Thomas's presumed stance to the world's other religions, or to the secular half of the US population who may not even have a relationship with God, let alone a church to shepherd them properly).

So it only makes sense if he's Catholic, and in tune with the Pope's recent "we are the one and only true church with world dominion" statement.

Of course, he's not interested in making sense. He's most likely just mouthing off against the "liberals," not even cognizant of what he's actually saying, anything goes long as it makes them sound bad.

Guys like him make me wish for a Jesus and a Judgement Day (though I won't do too well either, presumably).

[janx]

9. The right wingnuts' rendition of the Pilgrims' history is

so skewed...This might help. Separation of church and state was paramount.

[Zensea]

18. Probably has something to do with how you respond to God's words

First, as someone else mentioned Cal Thomas if Cal Thomas is Catholic, they are very concerned about authority and heretics.

Second, from the UCC web site, http://www.ucc.org/index2.html this is probably relevant, particularly the bolded part.

What does it mean to take the Bible seriously?


The Bible both unites and divides us as a church. Our spiritual ancestors have never agreed, even in the first generations of the Christian community, about the right way to read and apply Scripture. Today, views in the UCC (like all other mainline denominations) range from conservative to liberal. Scripture often quoted by all sides in the ethical conflicts that divide us as well as many other churches. The Bible is God's gift to the church, to be read for our instruction and comfort, but we often use it as a hammer to strike down the arguments of our opponents, or even to exclude each other from the Body of Christ.

Right interpretation of Scripture necessarily includes right living, that is, we cannot hear God's word in the Bible if our minds and hearts are closed to each other. These were some of the issues that were explored at Dunkirk.

I think it would be safe to say that the speaker there is probably thinking of the type of behavior Bush exhibits & that the ideas about how to interpret the Bible would apply to how to interpret the voice of god in your head.

[janx]

10. kick

[RealDems]

13. I was raised...

Southern Baptist. Left that church when I was fairly young and now consider myself a Congregationalist. The difference between the two churches is night and day. The members of the Baptist church turned their backs on members of their own church who "displeased" them -- by getting a divorce, etc... That didn't seem very Christian to me. That kind of story is not uncommon among people who have converted to UCC.

[janx]

14. Where do you live?

?

[FreedomAngel82]

15. That's really sad about that

:( It isn't very Christian. :( At my church we have a few couples who are divorced but one (sometimes both) still come. I'm sure there are people who probably gossip. I'm apart of the Church of Christ and the UCC left us a few years ago. I don't think they're that different from us. I like their messages they have to the public. I remember when they had the ad people at my church just freaked!! The older women mainly. My Mom told me she overheard the older women talking about it and saying how they hoped people didn't think that was us. :eyes: Talk about bigotry and being rude.

[janx]

16. That ad was a riot.

The church I grew up in now sports the rainbow symbol on its web page.

[cindyw]

19. NOT leader of the Democratic party. Was Terry McAuliffe "Leader of the Dem

Party". Hell no. And if you say he was, then you are misunderstanding the roll of the Chair of the Democratic National Committee. Is Ken Mehlman the leader of the Republican Party? NO. Dean will now be the fundraiser in Chief. If he has any effect on the party, then it will only happen if he himself changes the scope of authority of the Chair of DNC. But Dean is not the head of the Dem party.

[janx]

20. Well I didn't say it. Apparently Dean's church is very proud of him

and other leaders they mention, including Obama. This is a very good development. That church has a prominent place in American history, and it doesn't hurt--if Dean is elected chair--that the connection is known.

[JNelson6563]

21. Hear! Hear!!

Excellent points. :toast:

Julie

[janx]

24. LOOK!

The Rev. John H. Thomas, general minister and president of the UCC, welcomes SpongeBob to the UCC's national offices in Cleveland. Randy Varcho/UCC Photo

Related article is below. The UCC is on a ROLL! I'm so happy and proud!

CLEVELAND -- Joining the animated fray, the United Church of Christ today (Jan. 24) said that Jesus' message of extravagant welcome extends to all, including SpongeBob Squarepants - the cartoon character that has come under fire for allegedly holding hands with a starfish.

"Absolutely, the UCC extends an unequivocal welcome to SpongeBob," the Rev. John H. Thomas, the UCC's general minister and president, said, only partly in jest. "Jesus didn't turn people away. Neither do we."

For that matter, Thomas explained, the 1.3-million-member church, if given the opportunity, would warmly receive Barney, Big Bird, Tinky-Winky, Clifford the Big Red Dog or, for that matter, any who have experienced the Christian message as a harsh word of judgment rather than Jesus' offering of grace.

The UCC's welcome comes in the wake of laughable accusations by James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, that the popular SpongeBob and other well-known cartoon characters are crossing "a moral line" by stressing tolerance in a national We Are Family Foundation-sponsored video that will be distributed to U.S. schools on March 11, 2005.

More here:

http://www.ucc.org/news/r012405.htm

[Larkspur]

22. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

You and many thought Dean was politically dead, but he has risen from political death, a death wrought by the Brutuses and Judas Iscariots of the Dem Party in Iowa, to lead us once more, and his supporters, new and old, will help shape the Dem Policy and Vision for a better future because Dean will be seen as the symbol of Dem unity, not Kerry, not Clark, not Reid, not Pelosi. They all have their petty feuds, but Dean, with a resounding support by the state DNC members and because of us, his enthusiastic supporters, will be the face of the Dem Party for the next few years or until a viable and charismatic Dem Prez nominee emerges.

Kerry is old news, has no charisma, and has proven that he is unelectible. He needs to retire to his 5 mansions.

[cindyw]

28. Okay, I get your enthusiastic. Whoohooo. nt

[seaglass]

66. Wow - that is one of the funniest posts I've ever read. n/t

[Excelsior]

68. Kerry "has proven that he is unelectable"?

Then you do not believe there was voter fraud or that there is a need for election reform? You do not believe he won the election or that there was a reason that Barbara Boxer stood to challenge the OH votes
on January 6?

Is it really necessary to bash other candidates in the process of going on ad hominem about your own? It's very hard to see the spirit of "Dem unity" in your words.

[cindyw]

82. Welcome to the DU.

"Is it really necessary to bash other candidates in the process of going on ad hominem about your own?"

Has been that way here for quite some time for some people.

[Larkspur]

89. Obviously Kerry didn't believe that voter fraud had gone on in Ohio

or else he would have fought it and not given that Bush-lite concession speech.

Dean was much better the day after the election. He said that Democrats will fight back but must fight from our core principles. That is another reason why Dean is heading towards being our DNC Chair and he will be in a position to shape with our help, the Party's message and future. He will help shape Dem policy, maybe not directly, but he has a legion of supporters as well as those Dems disgusted with the current Dem Establishment of Losers who will let our Dem leaders on the Hill know what we think of them when they betray us and Dem values.

[cindyw]

93. Just stop acting like your legions of supporters is the majority,

otherwise Dean would have had the pleasure of losing to Bush's cheating. For the last year and half I have been here I have seen you demand that anyone who does not agree with you is some Repub-lite. It is getting old. My non-support for Dean has always been on the basis that his career has been to conservative. That his conversion to liberal was too well timed. I'm not alone either, otherwise Dean would have been the nominee. We all, meaning early Kerry supporters, went out of our way to give Dean supporters time to come to supporting kerry for the election. If you want that same courtesy for Dean, you have to stop attacking people.

[Larkspur]

97. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

We all, meaning early Kerry supporters, went out of our way to give Dean supporters time to come to supporting kerry for the election.
Poppycock!

The majority of the kerry supporters on this board demanded blind obedience to Kerry during the GE. Just to let you know, I never gave into that demand for blind obedience. Like a woman put into an arranged marriage, I went throught the motions but Kerry never won my heart. I proudly donated $0.00 and 0 minutes to Kerry's campaign. I also refused to purchase a Kerry/Edwards lawn sign. I live in CT and the Kerry/Edwards campaign refused to give free lawn signs to CT Dem Town Committee people, like me. However, I did purchase from cafepress.com a bumpersticker that read "Dean voter on loan to Kerry". Kerry continued to earn my scorn during the course of the GE, and after Kerry lost the election, I did what most intelligent woman stuck in bad marriages do, I divorced kerry.

While you may not like my criticism of Kerry, Kerry proved Dean supporters right by running a DLC-approved campaign and losing to Bush.

As far as me demanding that everyone agree with me, you have me confused with Kerry supporters who demanded blind obedience to Kerry during the GE. I also never demanded people to obey me or agree with me. I just use the same tactics that Kerry and Clark supporters used on Dean supporters. I'm half Irish and my Irish ancesters say, "Don't get mad, get even!" I laugh when you guys and gals howl when the tables are turned.

While Dean's initial supporters are not the majority we are now being joined by many, who for whatever reason, failed to see the illusions Kerry spun about himself. Kerry represents the waning of the inside-the-beltway Dems strangle hold on the Dem Party. Dean represents the new paradigm shift that has been growing since Bush's selection in 2000 and the Dem capitulation to Bush during his first term.

Howard Dean did say during his primary bid that we need to "take our party back" before "taking back our country." Dean as DNC Chair will be the beginning of the new paradigm taking over the institutional side of the Dem Party.

[cindyw]

98. I'm not really sure who you are arguing against. I don't even think Dean

would support the way you talk to and about other Democrats. Your just a party unto your self. What the hell happened to in your life? I'm guessing that outside of this place you are either the exact opposite of how you come across here or you have 0 ability to trust. It's Sad really.
I know that it is really against the rules to get personal here, but really where is all this coming from? You don't know me. I never defended the likes of the DLC. Kerry was not DLC. Lieberman is DLC. Any person can look at the Senate and see who is DLC and who is not. Kerry never has been. Let it go. Your attitude pushes people off more than convinces them.

[Larkspur]

99. I'm a member of my town's Dem Town Committee, I live in CT but work in

Massachsusetts, so I'm familiar with Kerry. My Mass co-workers and I think that Kerry is an elitest snob. He certainly came across that way to me and my brother, who lives in Florida.

I don't like Kerry because like the other DLC Dems, Kerry caved into Bush when we need political courage. Kerry has no political courage. Dean does.

Also, I refuse to forgive Kerry, Gephardt, Clark (and Clintons) for the malicious tricks their aides did to Dean in Iowa. This is the main source of my eternal hostility to kerry, gephardt, clark, and clintons and their supporters, who took sadistic delight in the gang tackle of Dean and his campaign. I have no desire to want to befriend them.

And yes, I made my feelings about Kerry and Clark well known to my Dem Town Committee, and many in my DTC also didn't like Kerry or trust Clark. I got the biggest laugh when the Kerry supporters in my DTC wouldn't spend $3.00 to purchase a kerry/edwards yard sign. What a bunch of cheapskates! When I ran Dean Meetups in my town, I purchased 50 "Dean for America" yard signs, some of which I still have and I kept one in my yard since I originally put it up in Sep 2003.

If you think being a Democrat means being a sheep following the herd to slaughter, you are in the wrong party.

[cindyw]

100. See that's what I'm talking about. Sheep? Have I ever expressed that

sentiment? No. You judge me with straw men arguments. Have I ever demanded that you like Kerry? NO. The most that was ever asked of you was that you do the one thing that would oppose Bush. Seriously, I could care less if you don't support Kerry, Gephardt, whatever. Just stop attacking Dems who disagree with you.

And everything you said about Kerry, I disagree with. If I thought any of the things you say about Kerry were true, I wouldn't have supported him. Why can't you accept that people can have different views of people and not be republican lovers?

As for holding grudges from the primary, I would remind you that it was Deanies who started the whole stupid "flip-flop" thing. And didn't that work out wonderful in the end. And it happened on all sides. As for behavior of supporters and staffers, you should have tried being a Kerry supporter in my town. The Dean supporters tried to get revenge of Dems who didn't support Dean by trash talking them to the staff of Congress people and saying horrible things about them that were not true. It was completely unprofessional. And as for signs and stickers. Kerry supporters spend countless dollars to buy these things and hand them out for free. The money only stopped when they hit contribution limits.

So try and accept that the way you see the world is not always the reality and the people immediately surrounding you do not represent the whole. It's strange really since the classic quality of a Dem is seeing both sides of an issue and being tolerant.

[janx]

102. Thanks for trashing this thread. n/t

[cindyw]

103. Your Welcome.

[Larkspur]

113. My view of Kerry is that Lurch from the Adams Family had more charisma

I never trashed talked Kerry in my town. I just refused to publicly support him. Obviously the Kerry supporters in my town were cheapskates since they wouldn't spend $3.00 to get a lawn sign.

And I work in Massachusetts. My Mass Dem and progressive co-workers were not excited about Kerry at all. They figured he lose the election even though they wanted Bush out.

And as far as yourself, you should stop attacking us Dean-ocrats who don't like Kerry, and the Old Guard who have screwed up the Party and have helped Bush screw up this nation.

[lojasmo]

23. Your understanding is very flawed.

Technically, the DNC is the core of the democratic party.

The democratic party platform is adopted by the DNC every four years.

Terry MC is indeed the leader of the democratic party. Whomever succeeds him will indeed be the leader of the democratic party.

Do some homework.

http://www.democrats.org/about/platform.html

[cindyw]

31. My homework? Oh boy your right, how dare I just make proclamations

when I know nothing. Your right, Terry McAuliffe is the driving force behind the party just like Bush. Bush is the leader of the Repub party. Terry mcAuliffe has totally been the equivalent of him for the last four years. Uh huh. Sure.

[lojasmo]

43. Sigh...the republicans have a public leader because they hold the WH.

If we held the position of POTUS, the leadership of the PARTY would be a much more subdued role.

Unfortunately, since we have lost the white house as well as the leadership of the House and senate with our wonderfull political tactics, we're going to have to recognize other aspects of party leadership, such as the DNC chair.

Certainly, Reid and Pellosi aren't terribly inspiring to most democrats, and certainly not to the left. John Kerry, though historically very good for the country, is now fresh on the heels of being smitten down by, quite possibly, the worst president in history.

It's a good time for the workings of the party are becoming a more common part of the american experience.

I know that I'm a more informed person from having become involved with the party apparatus on a local level, although I am uninspired by the way things work.

I have to say, I'm looking forward to a time when I can proudly say that Howard Dean is indeed the leader of MY party.

[cindyw]

58. He may feel like your leader, but the head of the DNC just isn't the

head of the Democrats. Sorry. I'm happy for you that you feel like your guy is finally a winner, but he will be so bogged down in raising money that there just won't be time for him to be the moral leader you obviously seek.

You know I am of the left and I like Reid. Pelosi rubs me wrong, but as a woman I am proud to have her as the leader in the House. But Reid reminds me of everything I wish I had known to get from my grandparents. So far he has done more fighting in his peaceful manner than Daschle did all 4 years. I great hope for him he reminds me of the Serenity Prayer. I am less inspired by flash and more inspired by wisdom.

[lojasmo]

60. The DNC chair IS the leader of the democratic party.

If you feel differently, it doesn't mean it isn't so, it just means that you don't understand the organization of the party.

[Excelsior]

70. Terry McAuliffe has been the leader of the Democratic Party since 2000?

I did not consider him to be the leader of the Democratic Party nor would I consider anyone who succeeded McAuliffe to be either, whoever
it was.

I had no idea that there were people who believed that Terry McAuliffe was THE leader of the Democratic Party for the last four years.

The leader of the Democratic Party is traditionally the person who last ran for President, which in this case is John Kerry. I don't consider Kerry to be THE leader of the Democratic Party, either, though.

There are many leaders in the Democratic Party but there is no single leader of the Democratic Party at the moment as there was when former
President Bill Clinton was in the White House.

Dean is just taking over the job that McAuliffe had for the last four years. Whether or not he's a success or failure is also going to be measured by the same yardstick as we applied to Terry McAuliffe.

[lojasmo]

71. Yes he was, regardless of whether people had a mistaken impression

that the last guy who lost the presidential election is the leader of the party.

The democratic party Is embodied by the DNC. The DNC makes the platform of the democratic party, The DNC chair is the head of that body. Therefore, the DNC chair is the head of the democratic party.

Look it up.

[cindyw]

73. Welcome to DU.

Thank you for some reason in this discussion. No one ever considered Terry any more than the technical head of the DNC organization. He was a face on TV and a salesman. People who support Dean are assigning a new role to him based on the possibility of the position. The position of DNC Chair could evolve into a moral leader of the party with the right maneuvering in the future, but it just isn't there right now. But I think there are those who confuse the want for him to be the leader of the party with the win of the chairmanship.

If Dean is to be the Leader of the Democratic Party, he will need to earn that position with all Democrats. DNC Chair and Leader of the Dem Party just aren't the same thing to most people. Until most Dems consider him their Leader, he just won't be. He must earn it.

[lojasmo]

76. Bullshit. Just because you don't understand the party organization....

Doesn't mean that your misinterpretations are fact.

"No one ever considered terry any more than the technical head of the DNC organization" UTTER BULLSHIT!

I think there are 470 or so DNC members (the core of the democratic party) who would disagree with you-and each of them has a significantly greater understanding of the democratic party than you do.

[cindyw]

79. You are mixing up "party" meaning 450 members and "party" meaning

59 million Americans who voted for Kerry. Dean will be the chair of the party apparatus. True, but not head of the 59 million Americans who stood up for Kerry. That he will have to earn.

[lojasmo]

81. The ENTIRE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

On down to every registered democrat....The ones who actually WORK to get people like Kerry elected.....people like me.

[cindyw]

83. No sorry, DNC Chair is simply not the "Leader" of that group.

If you disagree with me then why don't you open the discussion to it's own post. I think you will find that while some will agree, some won't. Terry was never the "Leader of the Democratic Party".

[lojasmo]

85. You obviously don't understand the party structure. Check this out

From Wikipedia:

The Democratic National Committee (DNC) provides national leadership for the United States Democratic Party. It is responsible for developing and promoting the Democratic political platform, as well as coordinating fundraising and election strategy. There are similar committees in every U.S. state and most U.S. counties (though in some states, Party organization lower than state-level is arranged by legislative districts). It can be considered the counterpart of the Republican National Committee (RNC) and their state and local organizations. Its current chairman is Terry McAuliffe.

The Democratic Party also has fundraising and strategy committees for U.S. House races (Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee), U.S. Senate races (Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee), gubernatorial races (Democratic Governors Association), and state legislative races (Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee).

[cindyw]

86. That is a party apparatus structure, not a leadership structure.

Voters do not turn to their Precinct Committee Officer for leadership. You are arguing election structure and I am talking values and leadership on an ideals level.

Listen you are arguing semantics of structure in fundraising and platform. I am not talking about that. I'll give you that. Howard will now be shaking hands, asking for donations (much like he has always done), making decisions who to support (much like he has been doing), and talking on TV..a lot. But in order for him to be the heart and soul of the party. In order for him to be the person who those 59 million people and those who come to their senses in the future, look to for guidance, it will take more than being elected to the DNC Chairmanship. It matters not the structure of the party apparatus.

[lojasmo]

87. I'm talking concretely, you're talking abstractly.....

Abstractions are meaningless, except on an emotional level.

I can say "bush is not my president" all fucking day long, but at the end of the day, it doesn't change that Bush is the president of the United States.

I understand that you hate dean....perhaps as much as I hate Bush....but that doesn't excuse willful ignorance.

[cindyw]

90. Who said I hate Dean. And you cannot argue the role of the President.

Dean simply has not earned my support. I don't think that equals hate. As far as Bush, REPUBLICANS will tell you that he is the Leader of their party and not the RNC head because he speaks to their ideals, they respect him and when they need guidance they look to him. I'll be honest Kerry never made it to the level of the "leader of the Dem party". he was on his way, but that has taken a serious hit.

Abstractions are not meaningless. They are not meaningless on any level. And what I am saying is not abstract. It is more concrete than a Chairmanship. Just relax. Dean can achieve this role. It will just take time.

[janx]

88. You seem to be comparing the DNC chair position to the

office of U.S. president. But the Dem party is now in a position in which we have no nominee for president, no "leader." People like to look for/to leaders.

Dean could very well fill that void for a time. He connects very well with people. So we'll see what happens.

[cindyw]

92. I am saying there is no comparison. When there is no presidential nominee

or no President that represents a party people do not turn to the DNC Chair.

But I do agree that Dean has a chance to fill that roll for a time. I'm just making the point that winning that it takes more than winning the Chairmanship to earn it. Some people seem to think that he can now be called the "Leader of the Democratic Party". For now he will be the "Chairman of the Democratic National Committee."

*spelling*

[moggie12]

95. "Leader" is a rich, value-laden term

I see Dean as a leader of the Party, but I also see Harry Reid playing that role as well. I'm a management consultant so I think I'm looking at this in a different way than some on this thread. There's no official "leader" title in either the GOP or Dem Party's structure: The President automatically becomes the leader of his party simply by virtue of his position and power. The party out of power can rely on one person to fill that role or many. The DNC Chair controls the Party apparatus but has no institutional role or function in regard to organizing the strategy and tactics of the party's national elected officials (i.e., Senate and House members). As Senate Minority Leader, Reid seems to have grown into a position of prominence in that arena, doing a pretty good job at organizing the Democratic resistance to the Bush agenda (especially in regard to fighting back hard on Social Security.

So what I'm saying is, we need both men to fill the leadership role -- and I hope to God they work together well!!!


Also, one last thought, don't confuse "leader" with "dictator". Neither Reid nor Dean can force Senators or other elected Democrats to do anything they don't want to do. Their power derives from their ability to persuade, to convince others of the rightness of their positions and the direction they want to go.

My two cents, for what it's worth.....

[wesrose]

96. We need a REAL leader!

Wes Clark '08!

[janx]

78. Howard is not Terry.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[cindyw]

80. Like I have been saying, Dean could change the roll. I am willing to be

surprised, but at of this moment, to the whole of Dems, the job is what Terry made of it.

[lojasmo]

63. Pellosi and Reed backed Roemer

An ANTI CHOICE democrat.

They can both bite me.

I don't seek a "moral leader" I want democrats who stand up for democratic values and issues instead of capitulating to remain "electable"

[cindyw]

72. Can you provide evidence that Reid and Pellosi supported Roemer

because he was anti-choice. Could you also give me a link to roemer's anti-choice position. As we all know this issue is not that simple. Most people are not simply anti-choice or pro-choice. I happen to know because I don't fit into a simple category. Could you further provide evidence that Roemer intended to change the party platform to conform to his position and that Reid and Pellosi supported this?

[lojasmo]

74. EVIDENCE:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/14/dnc.chair/

As far as Roemer's statements on abortion

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/09/roemer.dnc.chair.ap/

I'm not a black and white guy on abortion either, but as far as installing anti-choice politicians into party leadership positions is a mistake which will lead us down the road to republicanism. You have the right to be okay with that, but I will disagree with you all along the way.

I have no evidence that Roemer would have changed the party platform, nor did I make that claim... but the DNC chair gets to appoint 70 electors, IIRC, and having an anti-choicer in such a position may very well have caused the party to go in that direction.

Thankfully, it doesn't seem destined to be.

BTW, all these facts are easily found by accessing google.com

[cindyw]

75. google? never heard of it.

:eyes:

[lojasmo]

77. obviously.

:eyes:

[NYCGirl]

94. Here's a link:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/14/dnc.chair/

and another about his position on choice:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/09/roemer.dnc.chair.ap/

[sampsonblk]

105. He most certainly is...

and rightly so.

Terry McAuliffe is Clinton's man. Dean is his own. Dean is a former candidate who told the truth but was rebuked for it. Naming him as head of the DNC is an admission that he was right, and it puts him in the drivers' seat. Thank God. Ya can't pick Howard Dean, at this time in history, and expect him to be just a regular party chairman.

(I am still a Clark supporter.)

[KoKo]

26. In "New England" the Congregationalists are a well known Church/Faith...

I have to believe this is more "Anti-Dean" crap from both the Repugs and Democrats...trying to get rid of him, just like they did before.

And, didn't Kerry and the rest have the Repugs/DLC digging into their faith while the Chimp doesn't even attend church. He only does it for "photo op's" and he goes so infrequently he doesn't know that Churches use "Collection Plates." At least Cheney goes enough (he needs it) to give the Chimp a "dollar" for the collection plate..but in the end the Chimp refused Cheney and took the "dollar" from his Poppy...for whom he owes his birth. Dissing Cheney for whom he "Owes his P-Residency."

"grr"

[janx]

27. No, I don't think so.

This is from the UCC web site. What's wrong with what they said? They're very proud of him.

Edit: I was raised in that church, and I'm proud of him too.

[KoKo]

37. I was replying to the original post. So, not sure what you mean? n/t

[janx]

38. It's not anti-Dean. It's coming from his church.

Did I misinterpret something?

[KoKo]

39. No...the quote from Cal Thomas in your post! That's what

I'm replying to...:D (you quoted Cal Thomas...I was dissing Thomas and the Repugs for always going into religion) I thought that was what your post was about because this is the quote you gave...:shrug:

In 2003, when Dean's faith first became a political issue, conservative syndicated columnist Cal Thomas disparaged the UCC as "a liberal denomination that does not believe in ministerial authority or church hierarchy." Thomas further claimed that "each Congregationalist believes he is in direct contact with God and is entitled to sort out truth for himself."

[janx]

42. Now I understand. Yes, I think you're right.

Online communication is exasperating at times.

[mzmolly]

29. The UCC is great!

They formally endorsed Dean in the Prez race as well.

They take great pride in his membership.

[lonestarnot]

30. So he's a member of a church...does he eat baby's for breakfast....? Like

the idea of Howard as DNC Chairman!

[janx]

32. We're taking it back.

Bad audio rendition of Doxology (very bad, but online):

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/p/r/praisegf.htm



Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.


Words: Thomas Ken, 1674. These lyr­ics, sung as the Dox­ol­o­gy in many church­es, are ac­tu­al­ly the last verse of a long­er hymn, Awake, My Soul, and with the Sun.

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/w/awakemys.htm

Faith is good. Separation of church and state is better, because faith is the most precious and personal of all our "possessions."

Any caring Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, or Christian can tell you that.

Edit: Awful rendition of Doxology! The Presbys and Congregationalists do it best with a full pipe organ--the junk online is some kind of electronic version that the Doxology does not deserve!

[lonestarnot]

34. No argument here.

[KoKo]

40. We Episcopalians do a nice rendition of the Doxology, too...

Often with choir and pipes, plus the congregation. :D

[janx]

46. HA! It has to be better than the online version. I shouldn't have

posted it. It sounds like a home/electric organ!

But I remember the tune and the words.

The Presbyterians have all of us beaten when it comes to choirs and organs, I think...or at least it used to be that way. Well--The Morms are pretty good with choirs, too...The Morms actually have everyone else in a lower class of choirs...

I speak as if it really still were that way.

I want my country back! I want my Jew friends, my Espisc friends, my family Presby friends, and especially by Cong family back! What the hell is going on with my country? We used to be able to work and play and study together, and we didn't think about divisions much.

[xkenx]

33. I For One

love the idea of Howard Dean for DNC Chair. Terry McAwful might have been good at fundraising, but he was a weak spokesman. Dean's campaign put some spine in Democrat's backs early in the campaign before Wes Clark really gave it backbone. We need a Dean who will promote democratic values, work the grassroots, and give no ground to the Repugs. Then we can work towards making Wes Clark POTUS on January 20, 2009.

[janx]

35. Whateverthe hell.

"TerryMcAwful" comes from Rush Limbaugh. Did you know that?

[AntiCoup2K4]

108. Mush stole it from me!

I was calling him "McAwful" before Oxycontin boy was. Alternatively though, I also call him "McUseless", and I don't think any RW talking heads have stolen that one yet.

[marcologico]

36. Who is going to give a **** what religion he is, he's a WASP, like Chimp.

That's about as unassailable as the flag.

[lojasmo]

45. Thank you once again for a well reasoned argument. EOM

[janx]

47. Oh, rats. I must have missed that one!

;-)

[lojasmo]

51. Oh, I forgot the sarcasm tags again, didn't I? Sorry.

[janx]

52. I have that one on IGNORE,

so I'm handicapped re this part of conversation--sorry!

[lojasmo]

64. I should too, but I like a good train wreck. EOM

[Capn Sunshine]

53. wow, that's actually astute

It's like a stopped clock I guess...:shrug:

[RetroLounge]

101. Well, at least you are consistent.

Your posts are bullshit, but at least they are reliably so...

RL

[killbotfactory]

48. Why is Cal Thomas such an asshole?

And did it feel good when he sold his soul to the devil?

[janx]

50. That's a valid question.

Maybe he sees things differently.

[BlueInRed]

54. This just in -- Fowler's out, endorses Dean

For details, see this thread at LBN
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1214136&mesg_id=1214136

[Eloriel]

56. O.M.G. I can't believe it. I never thought that would happen.

I thought Donnie was in for the full count. Wow. Just wow. Maybe Howard is going to "win" this one -- and if he does, it will be "the 447" who made THEIR voices known for a change, along with a bunch of grassroots people too. Of course, some of "the 447" are now Deanies.

[BlueInRed]

57. I am equally stunned :) n/t

[janx]

65. So am I!

Wow! Donnie wanted a "two-man" race!

[bklyncowgirl]

59. Don't celebrate yet. This is going too good.

It ain't over 'till the votes are counted.

I'm still waiting to see if Dean gets "Swiftboated". One thing in his favor, they went all out to find dirt on him during the primaries that it's hard to believe that there's anything left.

Of course as we know from our experience with Kerry and the Swiftboat guys it doesn't have to be true to stick.

[BlueInRed]

69. I think there would be a major revolt if that happened

I am guessing one reason Dean has gotten this far is they (the 447) realize a substantial segment of the base might revolt if it went to someone like Roemer. With him the only one left, it makes it really hard to pull something b/c Roemer is truly unacceptable to many rank and file Dems.

[janx]

84. Exactly. Rank-and-file Dems all over the country wrote to the

447 and voiced their opinions.

[lojasmo]

61. Wow. EOM

[GetTheRightVote]

67. It is great to find out DNC Chair Dean is a religious man as well

but who belongs to a church which accepts all people in any walk of life that they may be taking....... really speaks of his Democratic values doesn't it. I believe we have a very good choice in our representative.

:kick:

[Dr Fate]

91. So the GOP/media is attacking his Sunday morning activities?

The GOP/media will attack ANY Democrat for ANYTHING.

Thats why we need Mean Dean up there to HIT BACK- cuz he KNOWS this more than most DEMS...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. Well one rumor (can't remember where I read it)

is that everyone is stepping aside so that Dean can be "reigned IN" in his new position (Please remember I SUPPORT him in this role)

When EVERYONE started stepping aside, I got a bit suspicious about this possibly being true.

Either way, Dean CAN and does inspire people to part with their money and while I don't think his OWN money was spent well in the short run...in the LONG RUN, he ferreted OUT votes in red states that may not have materialized. The organizations he has created on local levels will prove to be a plus as well.

[NYCGirl]

106. Bullshit. Did "everyone" twist arms to get the 250+ publicendorsements?

Note that "everyone" didn't start stepping aside until it was clear that there was no mathematical way to win?

Your suspicions are unfounded.

[DFLforever]

109. If the Powers that Were in the Democratic Party need to be humored

by this type of story, where's the harm? let them save face by claiming they've played a role in selecting the new DNC chief.

[janx]

107. Yep. There is that rumor floating around (along with others).

I think it will prove to be laughable in the long run. Some fear change. Others, like you, support Dean in this effort.

Things should become especially interesting in a week or so.

[Capn Sunshine]

110. I heard this too. It's rationalization

So many of the power puffs in this party don't understand why their old tricks did not work in this case; so now they are stating that they are still in control of the "reigns " as it were.

Anyone expecting Howard Dean to be reigned anywhere is in for a surprise.

BY the same token, I suspect many of our more energetic activists within Democracy for America might be surprised the first time Gov. Dean shows some restraint or works for a party cause /candidate they might not be 100% cool with, such as ken Salazar.

No zealot like a convert, is there?

[lojasmo]

111. In case anybody missed it....Roemer's out.

Barring bill clinton jumping into the race, I think it's Howard's for the taking.

WooT

[janx]

112. YEEAAARRGGHHHH!

:* :party: :toast: :bounce:

:party: :kick: :loveya: :pals:

:grouphug: :yourock: :bounce: :hippie:

:party: O8) B-) :+ :bounce: :dem:
:loveya: :pals: :kick: :kick: :bounce: :toast: :party: O8) B-) :+

YEEEAAARRGGHHH!!!!



:* :party: :toast:

:bounce:
:party: :kick: :loveya: :pals: :grouphug: :yourock: :bounce: :hippie: :party: O8) B-) :+ :bounce:
:dem: :loveya: :pals: :kick:
:kick: :bounce: :toast:
:party: O8) B-) :+