I'm conflicted about the label D.I.N.O. - anyone else the same way?

[mvd]

For those that don't know, D.I.N.O. means Democrat In Name Only. There are many Democrats who speak very well when talking to the Democratic base. For example, an internet friend who lives in Virginia went to a local party event where Biden was speaking. She said that she was surprised by the way Biden was very enthusiastic. So would he really be a D.I.N.O. based on votes that sometimes don't jibe with the party's thinking? My friend's report made me re-think things. I would count Zell Miller a D.I.N.O. for sure, but I'm not sure I can go much beyond that.

[DaveinMD]

1. Biden votes with the party

on a vast majority of issues as do most Democrats. Miller was the vast exception.

http://www.adaction.org/2003senatevr.htm

[LiberalVoice]

2. Just because you don't vote along party lines doesn't make you...

a D.I.N.O. But when someone like for instance Lieberman votes yes to install Rice as our new SoS then I think its safe to say he no longer stands for what most of us democrats stand for. That makes him a D.I.N.O.

[politicaholic]

4. I concure, Lieberman is a DINO.

[FightinNewDem]

36. Codswallop!

Joe Lieberman has one of the best environmental records in the Senate (look at his LCV ratings); he sponsored one of the first gay rights laws in America; his plan for expanded health care coverage was actually quite similar to the Dean version; and his tax proposal during the '04 campaign was actually more progressive than the other candidate's proposals.

A hawk? Absolutely. A "DINO"? No way.

[itzamirakul]

48. If there was anything even worse than a DINO that I could call him

I would! Lieberman is a DINO...A DINO...A DINO...

And besides that, he is a Bush-Cheney throne sniffer. He disgusts me. Kissing up to the Republicans as he does. Well, if the folks in his state wnat him, so be it, but soon he will be cornered like the rat he is.

[mvd]

8. Well..

Because Lieberman is perhaps more hawkish on the war than Bush even, I can see applying the label to him.

I think the Gonzales vote could be a good indicator for applying the label.

[Hippo_Tron]

12. 36 other Dem senators voted for Rice, are they all DINOs too?

Oh yea, I agree with their vote on the basis of senatorial courtesy. I also support single payer universal healthcare, I'm totally against the Iraq War, I want almost all of the Patriot Act repealed, I am 100% pro-choice, and I belive that marriage for ALL Americans is a civil right. Am I a DINO?

[LiberalVoice]

19. Thats not for me to decide...

And btw...Fuck senatorial courtesy...The 36 Dems that voted for Rice only made her acts of terrorism even more acceptable...If any of them truly cared about justice thye would have voted against her.

Giving a no vote for her as SoS says that you are against the war, that you are against the doctrine of preemptive strike, and probably most importantly that you are against her and the administration that she works for.

Saying yes is nothing more then kissing the asses of those in power and putting your carreer ahead of whats best for the people.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. So those 13 who voted YEA on Rice but NAY on the IWR support the war?

Those 13 who voted YEA on a cabinet appointment but voted NAY on one of the most politically risky votes to Democrats in recent history are kissing the asses of those in power and putting their careers ahead of what's best for the people?

Voting against Bush means that you are against the war, that you are against the doctrine of pre-emptive strike, and you are against the administration.

Voting for Rice means that despite the fact that we disagree with the Bush administration policies, he should be allowed to have who he wants in HIS cabinet with very few exceptions.

Now, Alberto Gonzales I agree that voting NAY on him was the right decission because there is clear evidence the he is UNFIT to serve as Attorney General. He has (on paper) advised his superiors on how to BREAK the law, when it is the Attorney General's job to UPHOLD the law. The Justice Department is also the one cabinet office that really acts independently of the White House in a big way.

[LiberalVoice]

32. Rice is guilty of the exact same things...

Not only did she lie in the same fashion but she was part of the group of terrorists who conjured up the story on Iraq and fed it to the MSM who in turn fed it to us. If you can find that she should be nominated but Gonzalez shouldn't then your logic is flawed.

[Tigress DEM]

23. Voting for Rice was one thing.... Gonzales on the other hand....

There are a couple of DEMS that have some 'splain' to do on that one.

A full resistance vote still wouldn't have blocked the nomination, but it would have shown solidarity against US policies of torture and putting people in appointments that are just WRONG for the job.

[Hippo_Tron]

31. Gonzales is clearly UNFIT to be Attorney General

Rice, there is no PROOF that she is unfit to be Secretary of State. Gonzales there is PROOF and it is on paper. He wrote a memo to his superiors clearly advising them on how to BREAK the law. It's not the torture that's the problem, it's the fact that he has clearly demonstrated disrespect for the law and therefore is unqualified for the office that carries the responsibility of chief UPHOLDER of the law in the United States.

The 'splaining that you're looking for is that most of the Democrats who voted YEA had to pander to hispanic voters in one way or another. Bill Nelson of Florida in particular.

BTW although unanimous dissent by the Democrats would've been nice, 36 dissenting votes for a cabinet appointment sends a pretty clear message.

[fujiyama]

35. I think Lieberman is a DINO

but I think it's based on a lot more than that vote alone (after all as disappointing as it is, Feingold and Stabenaw, as well as Harkin, Corzine and several other good senators voted for her as well).

His designation comes from the fact that he has defended this administration's foreign policy from the very begining. Not only did he enthusiastically supported the war, but he dismissed Clarke's charges about neglecting terrorism, tried dismissing Abu Ghraib, and later told Jewish seniors that Bush was doing the right thing about the middle east. On domestic policy, he came very close to siding with the administration on presciption drugs.

Another major problem is he has constantly attacked Dean for being "too liberal".

Lieberman serves only his own interests when he goes on TV.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

44. lieberman's yes vote for Gonzales was just as bad ....worse imho

[blm]

3. heh. I spent years supporting Kucinich when many called him a DINO

for some of his votes re abortion and flagburning.

I always said Dennis had the heart and soul of a liberal, and though I disagreed with his votes, I trusted him as a person more than any other congressman.

There is NOTHING to gain by calling names at fellow Dems, in my view. Think about where the whole flip-flopper campaign started.

[stevedeshazer]

6. Absolutely right

Well said. :)

Why shoot ourselves in the foot? We're never going to be in lockstep like the Radical Right, because we can't suspend belief as they can.

The Right is in big-time denial right now.

[mermaid]

7. Some Of Them Are No Longer Fellow Dems.

Lieberman and Miller come to mind.

I'll call them any sort of names I want, because they no longer are Democrats. they have completely caved to the other side, and might as well party-jump.

[Tigress DEM]

26. If you are bought and paid for and tounging the prez... DINO.

Lieberman for sure. Like some strange cult deal that whole kissing stuff. Why didn't * just whip it out and piss on the man in public?

[FightinNewDem]

37. Time for a reality check

Dennis Kucinich has a solidly pro-life voting record and supported the flag burning amendment; I guess he's a "dino".

Howard Dean had a shaky environmental record and was very cozy with tax-dodging corporations. I guess he's a "dino".

Of course, neither Dean or Kucinich are "dinos", nor are folks like Lieberman, Bayh, and Lincoln. We are not Italy. We do not have separate parties for democratic socialists, trade unionists and center-left moderates. For better or worse, we have a two-party system that necessitates a big tent to be successful.

I serve in the NH House. My voting record is basically that of a New Democrat (pro charter schools, pro crime victim rights, interested in strategies to spur the growth of emerging industries). Some here would say that relegates me to the "dino" dustbin. But...what about my record of working with the environmental community on greenspace preservation and mercury reduction? What about my efforts to control the influence of lobbyists in the legislative process?

Too often, people who are politically aware but not politically involved have a view of the political process that casts everything in black-and-white, "fer us or agin' us" absolutes. That isn't how it works. In the actual policy making arena, the person who votes with you 75% of the time is most assuredly part of your team. It's why this New Democrat is going to fight like hell for a Deaniac's redistricting reform bill tomorrow afternoon. It's why Democrats of all stripes were able to work with Republicans with a modicum of decency to crush an attempt to repeal our hate crimes law. To demand absolute loyalty is to invite absolute defeat.

[mermaid]

40. Well, Here Is MY Litmus Test, As It Were....

Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender rights. For or against? If you are agaianst, you're a DINO.

Do you live up to your duties as part of the party out of power, that is...to WATCHDOG the Bush Administration? Or do you rubber-stamp his agenda? If the latter, then you're a DINO.

If you cave on the issues that define the Democratic Party, then you are a DINO.

[FightinNewDem]

45. Answer this, then

If a legislator has a 100% rating from the AFL-CIO, the Sierra Club, and Common Cause, but votes against gay marriage, he's not a real Democrat?

That's simply idiotic.

This "l'etat cest moi" mindset, where the sum total of the Democratic party is one's personal opinions on a set of issues, is destructive and counterproductive. If we follow your lead and toss out the pro-labor, pro-environment, and pro-reform "dino", we risk losing his or her vote on a host of other issues.

[mermaid]

60. Yeah??

and a NEW Democrat like you is willing to toss us GLBT people out, in the name of your causes...screw us, we're just a bunch of queers who don't DESERVE rights or dignity, anyway...right??

I think you probably care more about the rights of the frickin' spotted OWL than one of your own fellow humans being denied basic civil liberties and equality!!

BULLSHIT!! The Democratic Party was supposed to be ALL ABOUT EQUALITY...and if they are too linguine-spined to stand up for MY FUCKIN' RIGHTS then, hell, yes, they are a goddamn DINO.

I'm sick and tired of being sold down the river!

[mvd]

11. Yep

No politician is perfect. Sometimes we hold politicians to too high a standard. I also disagree with those Kucinich votes, but I look at the tons of things I agree with him on.

[blm]

33. Yes. Who really would be left in Congress if the purists had their way?

I appreciate the way you opened this up for discussion.

[mvd]

59. You're welcome

I had seen the label D.I.N.O., but its context wasn't discussed much.

[Czolgosz]

49. Kucinich IS a DINO (he's really Green Party masked as a Democrat).

I never thought of a DINO asanything other than a Republican in Democrat clothing before -- I guess it works from the left, too. Yikes! I may be a DINO!

[blm]

50. Back in his early years in Congress he was considered Republican-lite.

Sounds strange these days, but, it's true. Those more conservative votes of his in the 90s gave him a way more conservative lifetime voting record than Kerry. It was even rated to the right of Gephardt and Lieberman.

But, I knew his heart was truly liberal and he evolved to prove me right.

[dolstein]

5. Why bothers me is that many of the people around here

who will brand someone a DINO at the drop of a hat can barely stomach Bill Clinton and, if they didn't actually vote for Ralph Nader in 2000, probably wanted to. If support of a party's nominees is the ultimate test of party affiliation, then I suspect many DU'ers would be considered DINOs.

[stevedeshazer]

9. Good point

I voted for Nader in 2000, but realized that it was a mistake.

These days, any Democrat or otherwise who opposes Bush is my friend.

[Placebo]

10. I agree.

Much of DU seems content to eat our Democratic elected leaders alive at the drop of a hat.

[Tigress DEM]

25. I call it "Black Widow Voters" we devour our losing candidates and ...

then expect the next champion around the corner to meet everyone's ideals and to always do what "we" expect them to do. Hoo boy.

[mermaid]

27. I Like The Picture!!

You a fan of the movie Koyaanisqatsi, too?

I loved that movie!!

The only spoken word in the whole movie is Koyaanisqatsi...and that movie says SO MUCH MORE than a bunch of useless drivel that come out of Hollywood nowadays.

I'd say what the word Koyaanisqatsi means, but then I'd ruin the entire movie for those who haven't seen it yet.

[BlueEyedSon]

13. I love the expression DINO. Leiberman qualifies, don't you think?

[DaveinMD]

15. look at the voting record

Even Lieberman is much more of a Democrat than you think.

http://www.adaction.org/2003senatevr.htm

[Quixote1818]

28. That makes Nelson, Breaux, Landrieu and Edwards the most DINO

[mvd]

16. The expression itself is not a bad thing

But it's important to be careful about the label. I am more liberal than most Dems and would like to use it often, but it seems like many in our party are in denial or scared rather than them really being D.I.N.O.s

[mermaid]

41. Then, If They Are Scared...THEY NEED TO GROW A SPINE!!! NOW!!!

n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

14. My definition of DINO

Is somebody who is only in the party for political gain and would leave the party the second that there is political gain elsewhere. Other than that, I don't have much of a litmus test. I can support centrist/conservative democrats for Senate/House knowing the more liberal/Progressive members will occupy the leadership positions and control the agenda. Perhaps more importantly those leadership offices won't be in the hands of criminal supporters like DeLay and Frist.

I'll take my own Senator, Mary Landrieu as an example. Mary Landrieu votes with the GOP quite a bit and often I know that it is simply for political gain. I often make it a point of bashing her for these votes. All of that aside, Mary is not a DINO. Mary Landrieu comes from a traditional Democratic family in Louisiana and is proud to be a Democrat. She spoke at Kerry's fundraiser here and actively supported his candidacy (something that our democratic Governor attempted not to do). Mary Landrieu does not by any means have the courage of the late senator who I display in my avatar but she is a loyal Democrat and by no means deserves the title of DINO.

[Tigress DEM]

22. I think people toss DINO around too much. To me....

DINO is ST Paul Mayor Randy Kelly who runs as a Democrat because he's in a blue state, but takes money from Rebublicans and supports Bush.

If you are taking money from repubs and supporting Bush you are a DINO and just get off the DEMocratic ticket and let a real DEM have a chance. You sleep with the prez, then be honest and run with his party.

Norm Coleman was a DINO - he literally turned from DEM to repub. At least he's honest, but the repubs are treating him like an ugly 2nd cousin, how do they know he'll stay bought?

[Hippo_Tron]

29. Coleman will stay bought becuase they'll keep buying him

And I doubt that Minnesota Democrats would ever take him back after the campaign that he ran against Wellstone.

[DaveinMD]

34. Representing Louisiana

is tough these days for a Dem and we need to make accomodations for that. Her record is far better than Breaux's.

[Hippo_Tron]

39. Actually I have more respect for Breaux than I do her

But that's not of importance, especially since Breaux is gone. Louisiana seems to be a place where the national party has given up on, yet our local Democrats are doing pretty well. As much as I trash Kathleen Blanco, she did BEAT Bobby Jindal who was a clear favorite and there's something to be said for that.

But Louisiana may not be a Democratic stronghold for much longer if we let it fall like Georgia did. We need to use our dem majority in the state legislature to re-district so that there aren't 5 out of 7 Repuke congressmen. We also need to the national dems to start looking at Louisiana as a potential swing state like they used to. If they would spend the time here, I think that it could definately work to their advantage.

If we let Louisiana and Arkansas fall to the GOP then we truly will have lost the south. We need to keep our control over the state governments in hopes that these states will eventually start voting dem on the national level again.

[DaveinMD]

46. I agree

I'm a big advocate in spending a bunch of resources in the south in the out years to try to gain some leverage there. We should do better in Louisiana than we are doing right now. Same for Arkansas and North Carolina.

[TwentyFive]

17. DINO is a BIG mistake

I strongly disagree with this idea that that everybody should be lockstep within the party on every major issue - and if they're not, we need to toss them overboard. This groupthink makes for a pure party...but also an easily definable and losing party as well. This type of thinking defines Greens, Libertarians...and other 3rd parties.

Disagreements within the party are good and healthy. Any major party needs both left-and right flanks. It builds numbers around key ideas. It shows that differing views are welcome. But when the general election comes around - you put the partisan bickering aside and support your party.

Senators Lieberman and Feinstein supported and campaigned for Kerry...just like they would have for any of the other candidates. Therefore - they are far more Democrats than NAME ONLY.

OTOH, Zell Miller is the classic DINO, because he stabbed John Kerry in the back.

[greenohio]

61. "but also an easily definable and losing party"

Great post.

[Rowdyboy]

18. The term makes me nauseaus....

DINO implies that there is some litmus test that you must score 100% on to be a "real" member of the party. Kucinich and Feingold are Democrats as are Bayh and Biden-its a big party. Ideological purity is pretty difficult to maintain if you choose a career in public service and wish to keep your office. In fact, it is probably impossible. Yet we expect those we support to conform to standards and positions that leave them open to every cheap attack the Republicans can devise. If they don't cow-tow, they're branded as evil DINO's deserving of nothing but scorn.

We truly eat our own.

[leesa]

20. If they vote for known liars about war and such, then they are DINOS

and deserve the same disrespect as any of the bootlicking Republicans. If YOU let them get away with this, it will contionue.

[Califooyah Operative]

21. not necessarily voting party line is part of what makes us dems.

we think for ourselves, and it's not always going to line up. I really don't care for the 'dino' phrase, especially considering the majority of the times i hear it, the context it's being used in is usually divisive and negative towards our party.

[LoZoccolo]

24. One thing to remember: people on the Internet overexaggerate for effect.

Another thing to remember: a lot of people on the internet have issues, and overreact to things. You should not worry too much about people talking about who's a DINO based on a certain vote.

[Machiavelli05]

38. I was at the JJ Dinner too

Biden had a great speech.

As did the future VA Governor, Tim Kaine and the future president of the USA, Mark Warner.

[rman]

42. How does "speaking in a very enthousiastic way" make one a true Dem?

Or is it that your friend reported that she was surprised, and that Biden was "enthousiastic"?
In that case i still don't see how that would make Biden not a DINO.

[mvd]

52. He said..

"that whatever you think the Republicans are trying to do...it's much, much worse." So, his intentions may be fine. I just wish his record was better.

[CWebster]

43. Not me

there is no doubt that "New" Democrats were trying to "modernize" or recalculate the party's position on the continuum which allowed it to curry corporate funding but which ultimately rendered it useless politically.

[CTLawGuy]

47. remember, not all issues are equal

if someone votes against us on an important issue, it'll take more than a bunch of yes votes on minor issues to make up for it.

I consider those who voted for IWR to be seriously toward the DINO side.

[B0S0X87]

51. If we're trying to be inclusive...

as many DUers say we should be, shouldn't the DINO label only apply to a select few like old Zell? If we say something like "you can't a democrat unless you're pro-choice, anti-Patriot Act, anti-globalization, anti-privatizing social security and anti-Iraq War" and demonize any dem official who disagrees, we're not being very inclusive.

[Akno21]

53. If we're trying to be inclusive.

There will always be factions in the party, that will always happen with a party as big as ours. The Republicans have the same issues, just less publicized. Not all Republicans are pro-life, gut domestic spending, radical gay-haters, etc.

[B0S0X87]

56. I understand that

I just don't like it when people plaster the DINO label on any senator who votes against the party platform.

[applegrove]

54. I don't think you want to alienate Democrats.

I don't think you want to alienate Democrats. Using the term DINO implies you have a lock on every single way it is to be a democrat. And any party has to be a plurality of competing values (that is how democracies work). Stop it with trying to remake everyone in your image. If some "DINO" voted for Bush and is misguided, and they learn the lesson in 3 years, and then they vote Democratic - they are just as good a democrat as anyone else (being fooled doesn't make you good or bad - it just makes you a fool).

[mvd]

55. Our party has crept to the right

It seems fewer and fewer old-style Democrats are in Congress. While the label D.I.N.O. is hard to apply with all the issues around, I think that we should make a stand somewhere. I just can't see a true Democrat condoning torture with their vote on Gonzales. But of course, your standard could be different.

[B0S0X87]

57. What's your definition of "old-style democrat?"

A lot of Cold War democrats were very hawkish- LBJ, Hubert Humphrey, and the founder of the neocons, Scoop Jackson. Not to mention all the Southern Democrats who fought against civil rights, one of whom, George Wallace, was nearly our candidate in '72. I guess the closest we've come to being the party of true liberalism was when the McGovernites took over the seventies, but that was a short-lived era.

[mvd]

58. Well still, Iraq is a different kind of war

I doubt LBJ would support this one. So I'd include all you mention, except for Jackson and Wallace.

[scribble]

62. DINO is a warning label -- not a condemnation

It is easy to take a quick way out -- just label Democrats who might be moderate or Conservative as the DINOs. Yet there are still many good Democrats who happen to be Moderates, or who need to deal with constituencies that are not like mine, and who are very sincere in their views. These people don't deserve the DINO label.

For me, a DINO is a Democrat who votes consistantly to harm the Democratic party on an important partisan measure... say, the Gonzolez nomination. While I don't think a person like this ought to be jailed or hung; but I do think the label "DINO" should act as a warning. Shape up politically, or stand by to be sacrificed yourself, in the next campaign, or on an issue that is especially harmful to you.

The DLC has been run by DINOs for ten years in my opinion, and we are now turning some of them out to pasture. Kerry has had his throat cut as well; he just doesn't realize it yet. By contrast, Al Gore delivered several strong speeches and has helped local candidates for the last four years -- he is no longer the doofus I thought he was.

For me; Lieberman, Byah (sp) and Feinstein are prime candidates for the DINO label, because they consistantly negotiate with Republicans to harm other Democrats when they simply don't have to.

sc

[98geoduck]

63. How about Corporate Whores vs Politicians for People.