Schools bribing kids to take chimp's Teen Screen Program test

[rainbow4321]

Relative of mine in OK got a 2 page letter from her kid's middle school. It asks for parents permission in their kid taking the test.

It basically tells the parents that the school wants to give their kids this test, all info will be "locked securely away in a filing cabinet and only screeners will have access" Also that information from the kids test answers will only be shared with the parents if the screeners feel that a kid is on the verge of actually hurting/killing themselves.

The kids are being told that nothing they say on the test will be shared with ANYone...AND, they are being told if they take the test that they will be given a FREE COUPON BOOK for getting a bunch of goodies. So now there are a bunch of kids trying to convince the parents to LET them take the damn test so they can get the coupon book.


Googling brought up this little tidbit:

http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/10/22.php

A brochure describing Columbia University's Teen Screen program proclaims: "If the screening will be given to all students, as opposed to some, it becomes part of the curriculum and no longer requires active parental consent

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/Bush-TeenScreen-Program.htm

A second article in the British Medical Journal discloses additional evidence uncovered by Allen Jones, the whistle blower from the Pennsylvania Inspector General's Office.

The first BMJ article focused on the Texas Medication Algorithm Project (TMAP)-- which was developed by University of Texas psychiatrists, paid for by Big Pharma, and adopted during the Bush governorship. The documents uncovered by Jones show that TMAP is the biggest pharmaceutical / state mental health marketing rip off scheme masquerading as "evidence-based" treatment guidelines.

The current BMJ article focuses on documents that expose an even more ambitious "mental health" initiative--a nationwide screening for "mental illness" campaign that is about to be unleashed on the American public in July. This dubious, government sponsored initiative, will implement the TMAP formula nationally. The first target population for this massive screening for mental illness initiative is in America's schools: 52 million American school children and 6 million school personnel are about to be ordered to undergo screening tests for hidden mental illnesses-- as if mental illness needs to be ferreted out and captured like a rabid animal.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Is this the test

I read about sometime last year where they'll screen kids for mental health? :scared:

[rainbow4321]

4. Yep..that would be the test ... n/t

[Niche]

95. Hitler Youth?

[rememberingGandhi]

2. What precisely is the issue?

Is this test not a legitimate health-screening tool? Is it something ideological masquerading as a health-test? From the link provided above, the test purports to identify kids who might be so depressed that the might be prone to attempt suicide or some other behavior that might be destructive to themselves or others.

Or, do you object to *any* type of health test by schools. (I do. I think I can decide that, as my kids parent.)

[rainbow4321]

5. I don't want them giving ANY test to my kids....

Especially THIS test with it's history of who runs it, the part about "we won't tell your parents the results", etc..somehow, the school and these screeners having a psych profile on any kid is scary...and what happens if their "results" show that a child does have a psych problem? What if the parents disagree and choose not to get the kid into a program, on medicine, or whatever else these "screeners" suggest?
And the bribery part of it...that was the thing that really got me on a rant. How dare they try to put pressure on the parents thru the kids wanting these "goodies".
This whole thing smells more like shrub helping out his drug/psych treatment buddies than a genuine interest in helping kids...

[Auntie Bush]

74. And someday... if any of these kids want to go into politics

will their test results be made public/leaked? Scary :scared:

[Maraya1969]

88. We need to get over the stigma of mental illness

I developed a mental illness when I was 17, (about a hundred years ago). There was no one to help me. My parents were clueless and in denial. And I was too afraid to ask for help from anyone.

When I got to college I Took a test in one of my psychology classes that measured anxiety and depression. It was private - everyone was given a number so no one knew who's test said what. But when the professor put the results up on a chart MY number was OFF THE CHART. He did say to the class, "I'd like to speak to this person while pointing at my number." But I mortified and was too afraid to talk to him.


I finally got help in my twenties by getting up the guts to see someone. And I will tell you from my experience over the years talking with other people with similar problems - it is the people with money or very good insurance who receive decent mental health treatment. I have heard too many first hand horror stories of people who could not afford to go to a good doctor and ended up at the local clinics. It is an OBVIOUSLY inferior type of treatment.

I do not agree with this mandatory testing, especially when it is being funded by the big pharmaceutical companies, but I still think teachers and the public in general need to be educated more and pro-active measures need to be implemented to help stop the stigmatization of people with these types of problems.

Mental illness is a Hell that most people cannot comprehend.

[rememberingGandhi]

101. Doesn't testing actually remove the stigma...

and make it a health issue rather than the old demeaning stereotype?

Kids are tested in schools for things like hearing and eyesight (at least where I live).

I'm all for parents taking responsibility. In fact, I think that most parents today can be trusted to figure out if their kids need and eye test. (Not sure about hearing --- most parents would tell you that their kids don't hear half of what they say.)

But seriously, precisely because of the stigma attached to mental illness, and also because of the dynamics where the parents might actually be "part of the problem", it may actually be more effective to have such tests done by a trusted third-party, like the school-system.

I do not know how prevalent this is, but if forcing these tests on the kids and parents can save a single child from committing suicide, then I cannot bring myself to object.

[baba]

20. What is your concern?

If you are aware of potential health and mental health problems, then good for you. I'm sure you would want your kids to get help. Some parents are not aware if their kid has potential health or mental health issues, and that is why they have school screenings.

[LiberalFighter]

93. I agree that any type of health of test!!!

They are not qualified to do hearing tests
They are not qualified to do vision tests

If there is a question about a students hearing or vision or other medical status then a doctor should refer or recommend that the student see a specialist in that field.

How many schools have doctors provide the medicals? Or is it mainly nurses? Aren't nurses there as an aid to doctors?

[ultraist]

3. That is really frightening

Those tests are highly subjective and this program is wide open for abuse of power. "Certain" people will be court ordered to take medication. In some states, it is already legal to court order people to take meds.

Numerous other things can occur with this new legislation: court ordering people into institutions, warehousing zombified kids in special ed classes, charging parents with child neglect when they refuse to give their kids medication and removing their children from them, placing them in state institutions.

For the State to take such control over parental rights is really frightening.

[baba]

6. I'll say it again.

More support of mental health in this country is a good thing. It is about awareness. Many children and adults suffer when they could get treatment.

There have been many threads on this issue.

[LizW]

7. Yes, but I'll decide

if my children need mental health assistance or medical evaluation. I don't want any testing done without my consent. I don't want secret mental health records kept on my children by ANYONE except medical professional that I select.

[baba]

13. Parental permission.

Parental consent is important, I agree. However, you should know that many states provide that a child age 13 or over can make decisions about their own mental health treatment. If a 13 year old wants treatment, and the parent doesn't consent, the child can sign herself into treatment. I'm not sure how this would apply with school screenings. The idea is that kids should be able to have access to help even if their parents don't want them to.

[ultraist]

8. This is a MANDATORY TEST; this is not supportive of Mental Health

This is about parental rights being denied so that big corp pharmaceutical companies can profit at our children's expense.

Guess who will likely get the test results? BIG corp insurance companies.

Don't drink the kool aid. If they wanted to support Mental Health, they would adequately fund Mental Health programs, not set up mandatory testing to get kids on meds.

[baba]

15. They can't send test results without permission.

This is against HIPAA laws.

[rainbow4321]

21. Not if the parent signs a waiver...

and if that waiver says that the screeners get to see the info and keep a file on it, and the results get shared with who ever "needs" to see the file..school officials, people running the study, their bosses, etc... I would love to see the "permission" slip that they want parents to sign..especially the fine print on who gets access to the info.

[Walt Starr]

22. If you believe that will stop this administration

I have a bridge to sell you!

[baba]

25. That is another issue.

Whether or not this administration is trustworthy is certainly an issue. However, I don't think that the idea of mental health screenings should be dismissed JUST because the Bush administration supports it. Many Democrats support increased funding and support for mental health. Mental health parity is a big issue right now with Dems.

[Walt Starr]

27. I dismiss the idea of government sponsored mental health screenings

OUT OF HAND!!!

Any governmental official who attempts it with my child will be learning why we have the second amendment.

[baba]

31. Okay cowboy.

Calm down. :eyes:

These are not "government sponsored" screenings. They were proposed as part of a national initiative sponsored by the government, but the screenings would be conducted in schools, not by dark-suited government agents who erase your memory right after.

Look at the website. The screenings are conducted WITH parental permission. If you don't want your child to be screened, then so be it.

[Walt Starr]

32. Look closely at the laws surrounding this initiative, "dude"

this is all about the government taking away parental rights. This first step is an iniative which will lead to governmental screening with NO CONSENT REQUIRED FROM PARENTS.

So I am 100% against this. I would never consent to it, and I would eliminate the person who did this to my child.

I have no respect for psychologists and consider the entire field to be quackery.

[baba]

34. I'm not a psychologist.

I am a clinical social worker. What field are you in?

There is nothing in the initiative about screening without parental permission. I am familiar with the laws. Maybe you need to look at the website.

From the website:

"These tools indicate only the likelihood of a mental health problem but do not offer a diagnosis. All youth who show signs of a significant mental health problem on the screening tool should be followed up by a clinical interview with a trained mental health professional to determine if further evaluation is needed. All screening requires parental consent." 

[Walt Starr]

36. Read the OP

"If the screening will be given to all students, as opposed to some, it becomes part of the curriculum and no longer requires active parental consent."

I'm an IT professional.

Nobody will be screening my kid. NOBODY!

[baba]

41. I'm sure I can find a lot to bash about your profession.

But I won't.

I did read the OP, and I saw that the information came from another paranoid anti-psychiatry website. I don't put any faith in the drivel that comes out of those websites. Many of them are Scientology front groups.

I hope if your child does end up having depression, that he/she gets the help she needs. Unfortunately, parents are not always aware that their child is depressed. That's why I'm glad that in my state, kids ages 13 and up can sign themselves into treatment.

[Walt Starr]

56. The quackery industry of psycho-babble can take a flying leap

It's all bullshit, IMO.

[baba]

69. Flame away.

I can take it. :)

My opinion may be unpopular on DU, but I know there are others that share it.

[Walt Starr]

82. You're entitled to your opinion

just don't legislate forced compliance such as with this crap in the OP.

[ultraist]

54. GOV'T MANDATORY TESTING! DO IT OR THEY CHARGE YOU WITH NEGLECT!

And remove your children. Get real. Why the fuck should the state have control over my child's health care issues? I will decide and choose the doctor.

IF I fail in my duties and they can show I am neglectful, fine. But only until neglect is substiantiated, do they have any right to step in and infringe on my parental rights.

This is how the state statutes are set up and this legislation bypasses that. BS!

[baba]

58. Show me one link.

Show me one shred of evidence that this is "mandatory" testing. And by evidence, I mean information from a site hat isn't a raving, conspiracy theorist, anti-psychiatry website.

[alarimer]

92. Way too Big Brotherish

Schools need to stay out of this. They will use the info to make parents drug their kids. We have lost almost all privacy rights in this country; we have got to stop this shit right now. It is sinister, like something out of the Third Reich. I am not kidding; I find this country more and more frghtening every day.

[truth2power]

49. Lateral shift in your statement there.

Increased funding and support for mental health vs. State mandated mental health screening.

No real informed consent here, because kids are being bribed with goodies and parents are unlikely to read or understand the fine print. Will be promoted as something it's not with Orwellian language. Bah!!!

[baba]

53. I certainly don't agree with bribery aspect.

If that is indeed occurring, that is detrimental to successful implementation of the screenings. But that doesn't mean that the screenings themselves are a bad idea.

[truth2power]

86. It's not only that (the bribery).

First of all, no one has inquired about the testing instrument used. What is it's level of validity? Just because it comes out of Columbia University doesn't mean squat to me.

Also, who's doing the testing and who's doing the evaluation of the results?

And, most important, there is no testing instrument that can determine mental illness absolutely. It's not an exact science.

A defense attorney can get an expert witness (social worker, psychologist, psychiatrist) to say his client is mentally stable. The prosecutor can then present another expert witness in one of the above professions to say exactly the opposite.

Determining mental illness isn't like determining whether you have diabetes.

BAD, BAD IDEA!!!

[truth2power]

47. Bwahahahahaha!!! n/t

[sandnsea]

14. It WON'T WORK

If they want to support mental health in schools, why not just fund more counselors? Why not fund schools so they're places filled with possibility? Reducing humans to the results of a ten minute test is disgusting. Not to mention the long term ramifications of being labeled with something you may not even have. This is the dumbest idea ever and I am a huge supporter of more focus on mental illness in kids and teens.

[baba]

16. They need to do that as well.

Screenings are a step in the right direction. But there needs to be better funding for counselors in schools and in the community.

Remember-the screening is intended to indicate if there MAY be depression present. That is what "screening" means. If a screening were to indicate that a kid may be suffering from depression or suicidal thoughts, the screener can make RECOMMENDATIONS for further assessment.

[sandnsea]

18. A ten minute test?

Do you know anything about these tests? Do you know anything about Teen Screen in your state or school district? How it is implemented, whether there even is a "screener"?

If an entire middle school is being handed a ten minute test and you think that's going to evaluate anything, you're either deluding yourself or you don't know anything about what is actually happening.

[baba]

23. Again, these are screenings.

A screening, by its very nature, is brief. The screening tools they use are common, and are frequently used my mental health professionals: the Columbia Health Screen and the Columbia Depression Scale. According to the website, all screening is done with parental permission.

From the Teen Screen website:

"These tools indicate only the likelihood of a mental health problem but do not offer a diagnosis. All youth who show signs of a significant mental health problem on the screening tool should be followed up by a clinical interview with a trained mental health professional to determine if further evaluation is needed. All screening requires parental consent."

[sandnsea]

26. So you don't know

Fine. I do know. I worked in the mental health field for ten years. You cannot identify which kid is leaning towards crisis and which isn't with a ten minute test. The most you MIGHT be able to identify is some sort of serious schizophrenia, but with teens you just never know. A serious schizophrenia would more readily be picked up by putting this money into training teachers anyway.

It's a waste of money, it will not work. And they are pushing to make this mandatory in every school in the country.

[baba]

30. I do know.

I disagree with you. I am also in the mental health field. If you actually read what I posted, you would see that these tests indicate that there should be further screening with a QUALIFIED mental health professional.

If you can't identify potential depression with screenings, then why have mental health professionals successfully used the Beck Inventory for years?

[sandnsea]

37. Because they START with a professional

Not in a school district with hundreds or thousands of kids. That's why. There won't be adequate mental health professionals to do anything with the tests. You'll have an overworked counselor with a mountain of tests who will be held responsible if one of the kids slips through and commits suicide. What do you think that person will do? Medicate anybody with the slightest tendency towards depression in order to cover their ass.

It's stupid and if you truly are a mental health professional, I'd think you'd be the first to recognize it.

[baba]

44. Funding is a problem.

I recognize that. Raising awareness of mental health is key to getting more funding and mental health parity in this country.

Most likely, they will have to refer out for further evaluation.

The lack of funding is a problem that needs to be addressed. However, I maintain that more recognition and awareness of mental health is a good development for society. I believe that these screenings are a step in the right direction.

[sandnsea]

63. See #60 n/t

[ultraist]

59. No STATE PAID SOCIAL WORKER OR PSYCHOLOGIST WILL SCREEN MY KIDS

No way. This is YET another tool to control the poor. I have seen Social workers LIE to clients about their rights to get control. It's common practice.

MOST people DO NOT TRUST government workers (ie Social workers or public school psychologists). NOR, do they think they are of the highest caliber. If they were, they'd be in private practice.

IF I feel my child needed testing, I would take her to a REPUTABLE, PRIVATE psychologist, not some power tripping Social worker or school employee.

Schools need to stick to education.

[baba]

65. You know absolutely nothing about the profession of social work.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Your post shows such ignorance about the profession of social work that I don't even know where to begin.

1. The majority of professional social workers do not work for the government. Most work in non-profits, private practice, or other settings.

2. Social workers who are "of the highest caliber" are always in private practice? Hardly! Many social workers choose to go into private practice. Many do not, because they prefer to serve people who can't afford private treatment. Many do both, working at an agency and maintaining a private practice on the side.

3. Social workers have extensive education from a "person-in-environment" perspective. They are trained to see the "big picture" when working with a client.

4. I'm not sure where you got the idea that social workers are "power tripping" and are trying to "control" the poor. Maybe you need to do a little research on the profession to see that social workers are advocates of the most vulnerable members of society.

That said, there are good social workers and bad social workers, just ike there are good and bad in any profession.

What profession are you in?

[ultraist]

81. You are being naive. How long have you been out of college?

Do you really have any idea what goes on with STATE paid Social Workers? It's not pretty.

I did not say the entire SW profession, but the fact is, most SWers are not involved in Social Justice, they are involved in the clinical end. And those that work for the STATE are NOT of the highest caliber.

I think you are mistaken that most SWers work for private orgs but I'd have to pull stats to be certain.

[baba]

84. It is true.

Most social workers work in the non-profit sector.

I find it hard to believe that SW's who work for the state are not well-trained, because it is really hard to get a job with the state! At least in my state, it is almost impossible. It may vary from state to state. Here, everybody wants those jobs because they pay really well, so there is a lot of competition.

I'm in the clinical end of SW, AND I get involved with social justice. I see that as intrinsic to the field.

[rainbow4321]

19. Our repukeville school eliminated our social worker dept.

And decided to leave the high risk kids to be looked after by the school counselars and teachers..cuz, you know, those 2 groups of people have so much extra time on their hands...NOT!!

The social workers worked w/ kids and families on truancies/drop outs/at risk, lower income kids. In one swoosh, the whole dept was shut down. One of the workers now does some work with the district with the GED kids but she has already heard about one of the kids she used to follow up on in the social work dept....the kid dropped out of school. Yeah, he may have done that anyway even without the firing of the social workers, but it is still makes you wonder what will happen to these kids with all of the stupid cutbacks.

[baba]

33. That's very upsetting.

I hate seeing all the cutbacks that are occurring in school districts and communities all over the country. That's why I support any effort to raise awareness of the importance of mental health.

I want to fight for mental health parity, and better funding. These are important issues.

[RedCappedBandit]

51. This is assuming..

that the treatment which children will recieve is beneficial.

I can tell you from personal experience that teenagers on certain anti depressant medication lose their unique personality, and it also can have ill effects on their developement

[baba]

62. Treatment.

Treatment is, or should be, more than just antidepressants or other medications. It should include counseling. In many cases, a person doesn't need medications at all. Some people do, however.

[RedCappedBandit]

70. I wouldn't want

arbitrary tests telling anybody whether I needed counceling OR medication. It is my business, if I find it in my best interests to seek help, so be it. No test is going to tell me I have to, however.

[baba]

77. That's why it is a screening.

It is supposed to indicate if there is a potential mental health issue. The results may suggest that you get further assessment. Only you can decide whether you want to follow up or not.

[Maraya1969]

85. I think they need to teach teachers to be able to recognize symptoms

of depression. I agree that depression is a nasty problem with our children, (and our society), today. I recently read that kids that develop addiction problems usually have some sort of mood disorder and are trying to "self medicate" to assuage the painful symptoms.

I don't agree with mandatory mental health testing though. That is obviously a drug companies market tactic. But I think we need to make more active progress to help our children.


And I would bet that the rampant ADD problem with children is a result of the preservatives and sugar and other crap that we feed our kids. At least I see some effort is being made at trying to stop this. We need to get those damned soda and candy machines out of the schools.

[baba]

9. "Nothing you say on the test will be shared"

When they say this, they are letting kids know it will be confidential. This is standard procedure. State laws state that a provider can only breach confidentiality if the person is a danger to self or others.

[alarimer]

94. That's probably a lie anyway

Just bullshit to get them to agree.

[sandnsea]

10. 40 states, 117 sites

http://www.teenscreen.org/cms/content/view/39/68/

Increased mental health funding would be terrific. But ten minute tests are not going to identify anything. The most those tests have ever been useful for is identifying traits and tendencies that might be helpful in counseling. They already use these tests to disqualify adults from jobs, adults who have never broken a law or been diagosed with anything. Doing this to our kids is unreal.

[baba]

17. Evidence, please.

Where is the evidence that people have been disqualified from jobs due to the results of a mental health screening? The results are confidential.

Now, I'm not saying NOBODY has ever been fired or disqualified from a job because of mental health issues. It is illegal, however, under the ADA. Discrimination still exists in this society, unfortunately. But saying "we shouldn't identify potential depression because someone might be discriminated against" just doesn't make sense. You could potentially lose your job due to a physical health condition, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't get a physical examination.

How would a potential employer gain access to the screening? HIPAA laws are strict about who can see someone's medical records.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[baba]

29. Okay...

I'm a mental health professional-I think I know my own profession! The "tests" that some employers give people who apply aren't anything like depression screenings. These tests are dubious tools that contain many "trick" questions. They are not intended to be psychological tests or mental health screenings. Your brother is probably better off not working for a company that uses these tests.

What electronic medical records are you talking about? How would an employer have access to these records? Evidence please. And by evidence, I mean reputable sources not paranoid Scientology websites.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[baba]

45. That was a personal attack.

Totally unwarranted. I'm not in private practice.

Might I suggest that you are a wee bit paranoid?

[sandnsea]

60. lol, let me get this straight

Accusing me of having some sort of paranoid scientology agenda is perfectly acceptable.

But asking you if you've got an economic interest in this legislation is an attack.

Riiight. Is accusing people of paranoia really the best you can do in making your case? And you wonder why people don't think these mass screenings to be a very good idea? When a supposed professional resorts to personal attacks so easily on a silly message board?

It's been real.

[baba]

66. You personally attacked me first.

You called me naive, and later hinted that I have ulterior motives.

I think I have made my case quite well.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

64. I am well aware of the abuses of power that go on in the SW profession

I majored in SW and worked at Child Protective Services.

THIS screening at schools is a violation of parental rights and they WILL target those who cannot afford private testing.

They are already doing that in effect. I cannot tell you how many clients I had that were lied to by School Social workers and told things such as, "if you don't put your child on medication, we will remove the children."

This is NOT to benefit children, it is to CONTROL PARENTS and SELL MORE DRUGS.

I do not believe for a moment, that Bush gives a flying fuck about children or poor people who cannot afford private therapy.

If you choose to help DRUG DEALERS get children addicted to ritilan and other harmful drugs, go right ahead. This PRO DRUG movement is damaging to children.

[baba]

67. Do you have an MSW?

Our opinions differ. Sorry about that.

[ultraist]

75. Excuse me? Are you assuming you are better educated and more experienced?

Where did you go to school?

Do you have children?

Bush holds a Master's, should I respect what he says based on that? Get real.

How ELITIST! You must work for the STATE.

[baba]

78. Answers.

"Where did you go to school?"

I have a Master of Social Work from an East Coast college that specializes in clinical social work.

"Do you have children?"

No, but I'm in the planning stages. I have been working with kids since I got into the profession.

"Bush holds a Master's, should I respect what he says based on that? Get real."

No, because Bush is an idiot.

"How ELITIST! You must work for the STATE."

Nope. I work for a nonprofit.

Sorry if I offended you. I was just asking if you have an MSW, because you said that you studied social work.

[Cocoa]

11. I wonder if this is related to military recruiting

identifying desirable traits for the imperial army.

[Walt Starr]

12. Damn, the Reichwingnuts screamed for 8 years the Clintons would do this

Then they cheerfully back the motherfucker who's putting it in place!

[Mutley]

28. hmmm

No one will ever perform mental health tests on my children against my wishes, and then do who knows what with the results. I will home school my children if it becomes necessary. I agree that mental health in teenagers is something that needs to be taken more seriously but not at the expense of my rights as a parent, or worse, the rights of my children as human beings and American citizens. Who really knows the true motivations behind these tests? None of us do no matter how many articles we find on google. This whole thing has a fleet of red flags raising in my mind. And I don't even have children, yet, but I will within five years. I can only imagine how those of you who currently have children must feel about this.

[baba]

38. Fortunately for kids.

In my state kids can sign themselves into treatment at age 13. What if a kid wants treatment, and the parent doesn't agree for whatever reason? That's why they have laws like this. The fact is, parents are NOT always aware that a child is depressed.

[Mutley]

43. i don't have kids so who am i to talk but.....

shouldn't parents be aware of their kids general physical and mental health? Isn't that a part of being a good parent? I mean, I could tell when my neice was depressed, my neice, not my child, and she is now seeing a therapist. I was severely depressed as a teenager and because my parents were involved in my life they knew it, and they got me help. Its a damn shame that there are parents out there who are NOT that involved in the lives of their children, but it is not for the government to decide something this important for those parents.

As for kids signing themselves up for treatment, well they are making the choice for themselves, it is not being forced on them. If * and co. are truly interested in helping depressed teenagers then there has to be a better way.

[baba]

48. Not all parents ARE aware.

Unfortunately, I have worked with many kids whose parents had NO clue that they were depressed. That doesn't necessarily mean they were "bad" parents. It is good that you got help as a teenager.

Treatment isn't forced. It is voluntary. In certain cases a person can be involuntarily hospitalized if they present a severe danger to self or others. Other than that, all mental health treatment is voluntary.

[Mutley]

52. as of now...

but what is the next step in this process? first 'voluntary' tests, then forced tests, then what? my vivid imagination shows me many roads that could be taken, most of which are horrifying. i am just extremely uncomfortable with the whole thing.

[ultraist]

68. Do you have children?

baba wrote: "Treatment isn't forced. It is voluntary. In certain cases a person can be involuntarily hospitalized if they present a severe danger to self or others. Other than that, all mental health treatment is voluntary."

THAT IS A BLATANT LIE! This is why people do NOT trust Social Workers! OF COURSE they can force treatment and they can force them into institutions. Ever heard of a Family Treatment Plan imposed by Social Services?

Some states can already COURT ORDER medication for schizophrenics.

As it stands NOW, ONLY parents who have been substantiated for abuse or neglect can be FORCED to go to therapy or send their child to therapy. This new legislation bypasses that existing law.

[baba]

72. I know what a Family Treatment Plan is.

If a parent or guardian has been involved with CPS, this is part of the reunification process. Do you not think people who have been abusive to their kids should get help?

Other instances when treatment can be required:

1. If the person is a proven danger to self or others.

2. If the person is gravely disabled to the point where they are AT RISK. You can't force medication on someone who is schizophrenic unless they meet this criteria.

3. In my state, parents can file an "At Risk Youth" petition under certain circumstances if the teenager is unwilling to go to mental health treatment or chemical dependency treatment to require that the youth be in treatment.

4. If a person has been court ordered to go into treatment as either a replacement for jail time, or in addition to jail time.

Where is the evidence that this "new legislation bypasses" the existing law?

[ultraist]

79. Of course the state should be able to intervene AFTER neglect/abuse is..

substantiated. NOT BEFORE.

State interference should not occur before a crime is committed. This is not how our laws are designed in a Democracy. It's philosophically UNETHICAL!

Intervention programs should be VOLUNTARY. Anyone who understands the basics about the effectiveness of treatment, KNOWS good and well, that a patient has to be willing. A resistant client wont make any progress.

This is a big daddy, white domineering patriarchial approach. It's totally fucked up.

It's too bad so many Social workers turn into being "parent police" and power trip. Many of whom have no experience parenting and have outdated educations.

[caligirl]

42. I do have kids, my last one is a junior and thank god he only has one more

year in the PS. system. I would refuse to let him take the test. They don't have sufficient cause to suspect mental health issues in every kid walking in the door. A broad testing of any and every kid without sufficient written documentation and meetings with the parents and school psych would be a huge violation of my kids rights. I would expect if they have any concerns there might be an issue they would follow the law and arrange a meeting with teachers and parents and the school psych as well as the parents chosen psych. and lay out a plan to address the kids needs with ADA law being followed.

[baba]

50. The problem.

Again, many parents and teachers may be unaware that a kid is depressed. Boys, especially, are less likely to talk about what bis going on with them, and tend to express depression through anger, or simply keep it inside. These screenings help the kids who have depression that might not be so obvious.

I agree that there needs to exellent follow-up, including the meeting that you described.

[caligirl]

73. The meeting I described is key in addressing kids educational

needs as well as medical needs that impact a major life activity, such as breathing or living. (ADA). Schools cannot arbitraily put kids in or remove kids already in, accomodations without parental consent and must notify parents of such meetings where their child is the subject.(ADA)

I have seen how school districts disregard ADA law and disregard the laws they are suppose to implement. I have a lot of experience in the dishonesty of the local and state school administrations in this matter. I would never allow this to happen to my child despite your concerns. These concerns do not allow for broad blanketed one size fits all testing by people who are not as interested in helping kids as you apparently believe they are. Go sit in some parent support group settings and listen to the out right disregard for the needs and safety of kids by these institutions you want to intrust with such sensitive testing. You are woefully uninformed of the blatant disregard of ADA laws nation wide in public schools today. It goes to the level of lieing to parents about their rights and their kids rights, it goes to the level of ignoring needs of kids who openly suffer educationally due to school district refusal to follow laws designed to protect kids and insure they can learn in an appropriate environment for them. Go look at kids forced into special ed by school districts who refused to honor ADA law resulting in harm to the student. And they don't give a rats ass about it until a judge rules agaist them. They spend millions on lawyers to avoid doing the right thing for kids. Its pervasive and entrenched in the state and local ed systems nationwide.


And before you play out your resume card for me, i am an RN, and very aware of the teen depression issues. Schools are not interested in healthcare, or mental health, issues. They are fighting it tooth and nail with lawyers helping them. Teachers are fighting this too. They do not want to be a substitute for a fractured health care system that politicians refuse(BUSHCO) to address.

[baba]

Sorry you have had a bad experience with the schools.

Obviously, the school system is far from ideal.

I know all about the disregard of ADA laws in this country. Unfortunately, it is far more likely for a kid to slip through the cracks and NOT get the services that are promised to him/her, i.e. an Individualized Educational Plan including educational and emotional support.

Does the system need fixing? Yes, of course it does. These screenings are a step towards fixing the system, not a setback in that process.

[caligirl]

87. we disagree

"These screenings are a step towards fixing the system, not a setback in that process."

The screenings add another layer to a broken system, they do not fix the system.

You sound more like the AARP who accepted the medicare drug benefit the repugs offered. They knew it wasn't what they needed but took it because it was the only thing offered in a long time.

A screening device like this is not the answer. Its another problem added to a broken system.

[slipslidingaway]

35. Parental Consent Act of 2005 from Ron Paul HR 181

"Accordingly, the first bill I introduced this year bill forbids federal funds from being used for any mental-health screening of students without the express, written, voluntary, informed consent of their parents. The bill is known as “The Parental Consent Act of 2005,” or HR 181. This legislation strikes a vital blow for parents who oppose government interference with their parental authority, and strengthens the fundamental right of parents to direct and control the upbringing and education of their children."

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst013105.htm


"Long-term Use of Medications

Breakthroughs in developing the next generation of medications provide hope for treatment and recovery from mental illnesses. The discovery of effective treatments using medications currently on the market is also encouraging. However, since these medications are treatments and not cures, some individuals with chronic illnesses, including children, are expected to use these medications over an extended period of time. Knowledge of the clinical and economic effects of these medications is limited because systematically evaluating the maintenance use of medications is not required for FDA approval. Consequently, long-term effects have not been well studied for many psychotropic medications.

Long-term effects have not been studied well enough for many psychotropic medications."

http://www.mentalhealthcommission.gov/reports/FinalReport/FullReport-06.htm


"Olanzapine (trade name Zyprexa), one of the atypical antipsychotic drugs recommended as a first line drug in the Texas algorithm, grossed $4.28bn (£2.35bn) worldwide in 2003 and is Eli Lilly's top selling drug. A 2003 New York Times article by Gardiner Harris reported that 70 percent of olanzapine sales are paid for by government agencies, such as Medicare and Medicaid.

Eli Lilly, manufacturer of olanzapine, has multiple ties to the Bush administration. George Bush Sr. was a member of Lilly's board of directors and Bush Jr. appointed Lilly's chief executive officer, Sidney Taurel, to a seat on the Homeland Security Council. Lilly made $1.6m in political contributions in 2000 – 82 percent of which went to Bush and the Republican Party.

Jones points out that the companies that helped to start up the Texas project have been, and still are, big contributors to the election funds of George W Bush. In addition, some members of the New Freedom Commission have served on advisory boards for these same companies, while others have direct ties to the Texas Medication Algorithm Project."

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39078



Other links
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41606
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/10/26.php

[annabanana]

46. Refusal to take the test proof of mental imbalance?

It is SUCH a little baby step to here from mandatory testing. Could schools make "appropriate medication" a prerequisite for admittance?

[Mutley]

55. exactly

there are too many bad things that can (and probably would) come of this testing to be worth what good it may do.

[LittleClarkie]

98. Don't schools already insist on Ritalin in some cases

before a kid can come back to school if it's been decided that he has Attention Deficit Syndrome. I know I've seen reports where parents complained that their kid wasn't ADS, just high spirited, and that schools had no business dictating something medical like taking Ritalin.

This seems like a similar thing somehow.

And I guess the key is to look at Texas and see how this was used there. Once again, like No Child Left Behind, which could have been a good program if not mucked up by the Bush Co., this is another instance where a program that might have had benefits has a hidden agenda and will actually make things worse.

I don't trust Bush Co. to do even worthy things correctly. They have an incredible capacity for fucking up even the best of intentions.

I wouldn't doubt this has a tie in with the Pharmaceuticals. And didn't the Medicare bill as well. My, but those folks are presumably happy little campers.

[sakabatou]

39. Couldn't businesses use he test to screen out people

who have mental illnesses if only minor?

[OneBlueSky]

57. the problem is WHO is doing the testing and WHAT they will define . . .

as mental illness . . . we're talking about BushCo, folks, and I would not trust ANY mental health screening program devised by this group of sociopaths . . . how long before homosexuality is defined as a mental illness? . . . or opposition to the government? . . . or support for abortion rights? . . . this whole thing is truly scary and should be rigorously opposed by every one of us . . .

[ultraist]

71. Those test are HIGHLY subjective and wide open for interpretation

Someone may test out as depressed on one day and normal on the next day.

[baba]

83. That's exactly why further assessment is indicated.

I'll say this one more time: screenings are used to indicate POTENTIAL depression. Tht is whyb they are SCREENINGS. Depressive disorders are not diagnosed by these screenings. A mood disorder can only be diagnosed with a full biopsychosocial assessment.

[RedCappedBandit]

61. This could lead to mandatory screenings

and mandatory screenings could lead to mandatory treatment

Which leads me to let you all know that if somebody tried to pull this BS on me in my school, I would absolutely protest

[KittyWampus]

76. My Concern Is This Will Be Like Unqualified Persons Recommending

Ritalin...

Sorry but Corporate Medicine is out of control.

And for that reason, the presumption is that this program is NOT centered around benefitting children but CORPORATIONS.

There are a lot of kids who need help... but too often Psychiatry prescribes a drug and totally neglects behavioral & other kinds of therapy.

I know, I have two paranoid schizo. brothers who will be on heavy duty meds for their entire lives.

One brother I keep trying to get into group therapy... but all his doctor does is drug him.... Oh, and ask him a couple of questions once a month.

[ultraist]

80. Excellent points!

Even for those who need meds, therapy is often ignored and not covered by state programs or private insurance. The money would be better spent funneling it into VOLUNTARY therapy programs.

There has been a HUGE increase in the percentage of children on powerful meds in recent years. Many ETHICAL mental health professionals, such as my sister (PhD Psychologist who can prescribe meds) are up in arms about the OVER diagnosing and OVER medicating of our children.

It's clearly a movement to inflate the bottom line of big corp drug companies. It's legalized drug dealing to children.

[rainbow4321]

90. I'd say this "billboard" explains the drug companies nicely....

[baba]

96. Funny.

However, all the Ritalin jokes in the world won't change the fact that AD/HD is a real disorder, and not the result of poor parenting.

[rocktivity]

91. The mental health profession should be in charge of this, not the schools

I'd rather be able to take my children to someone like Baba, see the results myself, and make decisions about treatment. Some states require that your children take a physical exam and be properly vaccinated before they can register for school, but the school doesn't do them. If a doctor said to you, "Well, you're not dead, so you must be fine--here's my bill," you'd call the cops. A ten-minute Q&A seems grossly inadequate.

:headbang:
rocknation

[applegrove]

99. The only problem is that they have drugs now that will stop

The only problem is that they have drugs now that will stop severe mental illnesses in its tracks. How would you feel if you didn't get screened for schizophrenia and it was left untreated till you were 23. At which point your brain had degenerated and there was so much damage you would never be able to hold a job or make a friendship. Lives led in abject pain are nothing to ignore.

How would you feel if you could have been on a pill from the age of 17 which would have given you a strong base line - so strong that the schizophrenia would never have occurred?

I don't think that a life of living on the street is too appealing. The facts are that mental health screening will actually save the health and lives of many people.

That does not mean that this screening should not be done if complete privacy with huge regulations associated. So kick up a fuss and make sure the proper security features are in place. And pass laws to make sure the result of such tests and preventive health measures are never allowed to be seen by the president or any of those politicos.

I think something this important calls for a new set of laws. And heavy regulation.

A school safe is just not an acceptable place to keep the information. It should be kept in agency headquarters. And since it is a federal initiative – they should pay for the whole thing. Including the testors – who must be sworn to secrecy and are not a hodge-podge of state employees put together.

They are either serious about this – or not!!!

[cestpaspossible]

100. I've never understood how these tests can be effective.

the 'right' answers are always so obvious, even thought there are not supposed to be any right answers.